CC: What do you think Jesus died to conquer?

[Janie Grace]

If you're not a believer in Christ, I respect you, but I really want to hear from Christians. I have always been taught that Jesus died to conquer sin -- that is, He paid the price for our sin (God's wrath) and by His death, He also defeated the power of sin in a believer's life (not that we no longer sin, but that we are not under its sway in the same way as pre-conversion).

 

Recently, I saw a comment on a FB post (a prayer request for someone very sick) indicating that Jesus purchased physical healing on the cross -- that freedom from sickness is God's will for us because of Calvary. Is this an application of "by His stripes we are healed"? If you believe this, how do you explain the fact that many Christians are sick (just like the rest of humanity)? Where does Scripture teach that Jesus' death leads to physical wellness (besides ultimate healing in heaven)?

 

Also, I read in a children's Bible something recently about Jesus dying to conquer sadness. Huh? I agree that Christians can experience unique comfort through the ministry of the Holy Spirit, but again -- what is the Biblical foundation of "Jesus died for your sadness"?

 

Thanks for any insight into this!

[PachiSusan]

Jesus died so that we may have eternal life and for the remission of our sins. It was never promised that he would heal us physically of all ills.

[Jean in Newcastle]

You said it well. He died to conquer sin.

[swellmomma]

Well he healed and took away sadness if you look at it as he conquered our sins so we may be forgiven and enter the kingdom of heaven where we are cured of all ailments both physical and mental to live without sickness, sadness, pain etc.But in order for those things to be we need to be absolved of our sins which believers are because he died on the cross...hmmm not sure if it coming out on here the way it is in my head lol

[milovany]

He died to conquer death.

 

is an old, old hymn in the Church. (Old as in more a thousand years, more like 1500 probably).

a modern flash mob version in Beirut. As Patty Joanna's signature says, "Christ didn't come to make bad men good, but to make dead men live."

[DawnM]

While it is true that there was no illness in the perfection of creation UNTIL there was sin, we do endure suffering here on earth due to sin. That includes Christians. In eternity, we will no longer be sick, ever. That to me is complete healing and part of what he came to save us for.

[theYoungerMrsWarde]

I'd say he conquered death as well. But Paul talked about the thorn in his side that he prayed would be taken away and the answer was "no." I don't believe that Jesus died so that our bodies now would be healed if we just believed/had enough faith. I believe that when we are in His kingdom there will be no sadness, but there is plenty now in the fallen world.

[Jean in Newcastle]

He conquered spiritual death, which is the consequence of sin. Through His resurrection He made it possible for us to have a resurrection body.

[SKL]

He died to get rid of the need for each of us to pay for each of our sins, and the resulting gulf between man and God.

 

He died to overcome attachment to material concerns and free us to focus on spiritual concerns.

 

Take your pick, I guess.

[I.Dup.]

I still don't quite understand what "He died to conquer death" means. Obviously, everyone still dies. I guess "He died to conquer death" means we don't have to go to hell? But people still do go to hell, according to the NT, even professing Christians. It's confusing.

 

Someone posted this on facebook yesterday and it confused me even more:

 

I wonder: If all the layers of God were stripped away. If He were no longer our protector (Jehovah-Raah), or our companion (Jehovah-Shammah), our master (Adonai), if he no longer watched over us (El Roi), or provided for us (Jehovah-Jirah).....If He were just Messiah, our savior, would we worship Him anyway. Would simply saving us be enough to woo our devotion?

[Mrs Mungo]

He died to conquer death.

 

I'd say he conquered death as well. But Paul talked about the thorn in his side that he prayed would be taken away and the answer was "no." I don't believe that Jesus died so that our bodies now would be healed if we just believed/had enough faith. I believe that when we are in His kingdom there will be no sadness, but there is plenty now in the fallen world.

 

He conquered spiritual death, which is the consequence of sin. Through His resurrection He made it possible for us to have a resurrection body.

 

 

:iagree:

[PachiSusan]

I still don't quite understand what "He died to conquer death" means. Obviously, everyone still dies. I guess "He died to conquer death" means we don't have to go to hell? But people still do go to hell, according to the NT, even professing Christians. It's confusing.

 

Someone posted this on facebook yesterday and it confused me even more:

 

I wonder: If all the layers of God were stripped away. If He were no longer our protector (Jehovah-Raah), or our companion (Jehovah-Shammah), our master (Adonai), if he no longer watched over us (El Roi), or provided for us (Jehovah-Jirah).....If He were just Messiah, our savior, would we worship Him anyway. Would simply saving us be enough to woo our devotion?

 

 

He conquered death as in death is not the end. We now have eternal life.

[Parrothead]

Christ died for the remission of sin, for the redemption of mankind.

 

In all my studies I've never heard that Christ died to conquer sickness. That is a new on on me.

 

I can see how it would be sadness in a children's Bible if it was aimed at very small children. But that is a new one for me too.

[milovany]

I still don't quite understand what "He died to conquer death" means. Obviously, everyone still dies. I guess "He died to conquer death" means we don't have to go to hell? But people still do go to hell, according to the NT, even professing Christians. It's confusing.

 

All death. In Christ, there is no more death. Our bodies die, but they will be resurrected. Our spirits do not die, they travel on. This separation of body and spirit is not natural; it's not the original design. Christ conquered this and brings them back together.

 

Someone posted this on facebook yesterday and it confused me even more:

 

I wonder: If all the layers of God were stripped away. If He were no longer our protector (Jehovah-Raah), or our companion (Jehovah-Shammah), our master (Adonai), if he no longer watched over us (El Roi), or provided for us (Jehovah-Jirah).....If He were just Messiah, our savior, would we worship Him anyway. Would simply saving us be enough to woo our devotion?

 

 

That's confusing to me, too. You can't separate out God like that; they're not "layers." They're who He is. I wouldn't even entertain that question. That definition/idea of "salvation" makes no sense.

[violamama]

Not only did he not die to conquer sickness in this present life (though He does grieve with us), he did not die to bring us prosperity nor does he promise us a special mission that will prosper if we just figure out what it is. These are all versions of prosperity gospel, which is really about us being the center rather than God.

[bolt.]

He died to "conquer" (a metaphor) sin-and-death -- which are very intimately intertwined.

 

Sin is the choice to separate one's self from relationship with God, yet relationship with God is the only source of life, therefore sin is a choice that ends life and makes mortality into the universal human "end" (as well as the present condition of being a mortal).

 

Jesus' death ended that progression of

 

: birth->sin->mortality->physical death->eternal destruction.

 

Now it reads

 

:birth->sin->mortality->trusting Jesus' death and ressurection->new life and relationship with God->physical death->personal ressurection->non-mortal life (but not a recognizable earth-ish life... something else, expected to be glorious).

 

This is a "conquering" because it broke the universal connection of sin-death and made another way, an escape that is a victory. It does not mean that everyone takes the escape. Sin-death is 'conquered' because it is now a 'kingdom' that can not keep anyone who isn't 'staying willingly'. (This is a metaphorical discription of real spiritual events -- it conveys some of the sense of the events, which are in mystery, but it is neither a flawless metaphor nor an exhaustive metaphor.)

 

Jesus' power during His earthly phase of incarnation did extend to ruling over illness and healing events. I consider these and other miraculous events to be something like "previews" of the glory to come. They are not impossible, and not even that rare -- but they are not universal and should not be universally expected. However, there is no harm in asking. Hope of blessing, even miracle, is appropreate in a Christian's relationship with God. (Demanding and being petulant about God's freedom of response about it is not.)

[milovany]

Recently, I saw a comment on a FB post (a prayer request for someone very sick) indicating that Jesus purchased physical healing on the cross -- that freedom from sickness is God's will for us because of Calvary. Is this an application of "by His stripes we are healed"? If you believe this, how do you explain the fact that many Christians are sick (just like the rest of humanity)? Where does Scripture teach that Jesus' death leads to physical wellness (besides ultimate healing in heaven)?

 

 

Addressing this specifically, this is the "prosperity gospel." God wants you healthy and wealthy. If you're not, the problem lies within your life and faith, or within the general "fallen world," not with God. He wants you to be rich and never sick in both this life and in the life to come.

 

You can actually come up with a lot of proof texting scriptures to support these ideas. We used to be believers in the prosperity gospel, and believe me, there are a lot of them there. There are numerous NT scriptures that mention physical and spiritual healing in the same verse/sentence. There are numerous verses throughout the whole Bible that talk about God's people prospering, and that prosperity being because of their own doing (verses about speaking life and victory, about having faith, about doing...). One main one is in the Lord's prayer, "Thy will be done -- on earth as it is in heaven." Well, there's no sickness or poverty in heaven, right? So because it says "on earth AS IT IS in heaven" that must mean there won't (or oughtn't) be any here right? Another is in ... Jude, I think? "Beloved, I pray that you prosper even as your soul prospers." Another is in Psalm 1. "... and whatsoever [the blessed man] doeth shall prosper." Seriously, there are a lot there.

 

The problem is that there are many, many, many verses that also support the idea that "the rain falls on the just and the unjust alike" and that people can learn God-ordained things through their suffering; that God is sovereign over all and that nothing happens except that He allows it. So, which is right?

 

This is where the idea of sola scriptura (if defined as "You can only use the Bible to decide what the Christian faith should look like) started to fall apart for me. There were two diametrically opposed teachings out there -- both claiming to be backed up by Scripture. I had to walk away because my faith was in my faith, not in God. I don't believe either extreme anymore.

[Kathryn]

I'm just going to agree with the "death" crowd.

[TranquilMind]

If you're not a believer in Christ, I respect you, but I really want to hear from Christians. I have always been taught that Jesus died to conquer sin -- that is, He paid the price for our sin (God's wrath) and by His death, He also defeated the power of sin in a believer's life (not that we no longer sin, but that we are not under its sway in the same way as pre-conversion).

 

Recently, I saw a comment on a FB post (a prayer request for someone very sick) indicating that Jesus purchased physical healing on the cross -- that freedom from sickness is God's will for us because of Calvary. Is this an application of "by His stripes we are healed"? If you believe this, how do you explain the fact that many Christians are sick (just like the rest of humanity)? Where does Scripture teach that Jesus' death leads to physical wellness (besides ultimate healing in heaven)?

 

Also, I read in a children's Bible something recently about Jesus dying to conquer sadness. Huh? I agree that Christians can experience unique comfort through the ministry of the Holy Spirit, but again -- what is the Biblical foundation of "Jesus died for your sadness"?

 

Thanks for any insight into this!

 

 

Death, sin, and the grave, He said.

 

I think I know what the post meant though. Isaiah 53 says that surely He has borne our griefs and our sorrows, and by His stripes we are healed. Jesus carries the burden of the sin and sickness of the whole world, so we don't also have to carry it. I do believe it is God's will also, but I also know many things interfere in this world with healing, which is why we get sick (mentally, physically, as a culture) in the first place. So, you do what David did when his son was going to die. You pray and believe for healing and stand firm. If it doesn't happen, you wash your face, and go about your life, trusting that you will understand at some point.

 

There are actually so many verses: John 10:10 The thief comes to steal, kill and destroy, but I have come that they may have life, and more abundantly.

 

Psalm 103 Bless the Lord, O my soul: and all that is within me, bless his holy name.

 

² Bless the Lord, O my soul, and forget not all his benefits:

 

³ Who forgiveth all thine iniquities; who healeth all thy diseases;

 

⁴ Who redeemeth thy life from destruction; who crowneth thee with lovingkindness and tender mercies;

 

⁵ Who satisfieth thy mouth with good things; so that thy youth is renewed like the eagle's.

[TranquilMind]

He died to "conquer" (a metaphor) sin-and-death -- which are very intimately intertwined.

 

Sin is the choice to separate one's self from relationship with God, yet relationship with God is the only source of life, therefore sin is a choice that ends life and makes mortality into the universal human "end" (as well as the present condition of being a mortal).

 

Jesus' death ended that progression of

 

: birth->sin->mortality->physical death->eternal destruction.

 

Now it reads

 

:birth->sin->mortality->trusting Jesus' death and ressurection->new life and relationship with God->physical death->personal ressurection->non-mortal life (but not a recognizable earth-ish life... something else, expected to be glorious).

 

This is a "conquering" because it broke the universal connection of sin-death and made another way, an escape that is a victory. It does not mean that everyone takes the escape. Sin-death is 'conquered' because it is now a 'kingdom' that can not keep anyone who isn't 'staying willingly'. (This is a metaphorical discription of real spiritual events -- it conveys some of the sense of the events, which are in mystery, but it is neither a flawless metaphor nor an exhaustive metaphor.)

 

Jesus' power during His earthly phase of incarnation did extend to ruling over illness and healing events. I consider these and other miraculous events to be something like "previews" of the glory to come. They are not impossible, and not even that rare -- but they are not universal and should not be universally expected. However, there is no harm in asking. Hope of blessing, even miracle, is appropreate in a Christian's relationship with God. (Demanding and being petulant about God's freedom of response about it is not.)

 

 

This was a pretty interesting and concise explanation. Well stated.

[PachiSusan]

These are all versions of prosperity gospel, which is really about us being the center rather than God.

 

This! I find the prosperity gospel very troubling.

[mommaduck]

All death. In Christ, there is no more death. Our bodies die, but they will be resurrected. Our spirits do not die, they travel on. This separation of body and spirit is not natural; it's not the original design. Christ conquered this and brings them back together.

 

 

 

That's confusing to me, too. You can't separate out God like that; they're not "layers." They're who He is. I wouldn't even entertain that question. That definition/idea of "salvation" makes no sense.

this

[thebacabunch]

He died to conquer death. As in Adam all men die, in Christ all shall live. The resurrection of our physical bodies was made possible through his death and resurrection. He paid for and died for our sins in the garden of gethsemene and on the cross.

[mytwomonkeys]

Jesus died so that we may have eternal life and for the remission of our sins. It was never promised that he would heal us physically of all ills.

 

 

this.

[mommaduck]

Per a book I am currently reading:

 

"Salvation rescues us not only from the guilt of sin, but from the very power of sin and death. It is not merely a change in legal status, but a change in actual being."

[gardenmom5]

I believe there is eternal law. justice demands payment for sin. as imperfect mortals, we have committed sin. Through His suffereing in the Garden of Gethsemene He paid justice for our sins, so that we might be forgiven and return to live with Him and Heavenly Father.

 

He had to have the power over life and death to have control over when He died. He conquered death by being resurrected so we might also be resurrected.

[Janie Grace]

Per a book I am currently reading:

 

"Salvation rescues us not only from the guilt of sin, but from the very power of sin and death. It is not merely a change in legal status, but a change in actual being."

 

What book is this from? It's well said.

[Janie Grace]

Thanks, everyone. I had a feeling the sickness one was a version of the prosperity gospel. It was weird and troubling because it was posted by someone I once respected a great deal... but I just can't agree with the idea that Jesus "purchased" our physical wellness. I don't understand what in the world someone from that viewpoint does with the prevalence of sickness. It seems like a very disillusioning viewpoint to hold.

[mommaduck]

It is from Orthodoxy and Heterodoxy, written by Father Damick.

[J-rap]

He died to conquer sin and death, and to be the bridge between mankind and God.

[elizabeth]

Hate. I believe He died to conquer mankind's inexplicable ability to hate. As in God showing people go on hate me, torture me, spit on me, kill me but I will still love you. My love for you cannot be changed. That is just my understanding based on the Beatitudes primarily. I am not what many here would understand as Christian but that's ok I think on the continuim of beleiver sI fall more closely in the Christan camp than any other.

[ladydusk]

He died to conquer sin ... the wages of which is death. He died so that he could crush the serpent's head.

[sheryl]

He conquered spiritual death, which is the consequence of sin. Through His resurrection He made it possible for us to have a resurrection body.

That's true, but physical death resulted from spiritual death (sin). Our salvation is a "rebirth" (spiritually speaking), so we are no longer "dead" to sin, but He conquered physical death - so, when a "believer" "follower" "saved person" dies they will one day be raised to eternal salvation...this is His conquering death for those saved people for they will not be dead, but living an eternal life with Christ.

[Laurie4b]

I believe there is eternal law. justice demands payment for sin. as imperfect mortals, we have committed sin. Through His suffereing in the Garden of Gethsemene He paid justice for our sins, so that we might be forgiven and return to live with Him and Heavenly Father.

 

He had to have the power over life and death to have control over when He died. He conquered death by being resurrected so we might also be resurrected.

 

'

 

I've never heard that his suffering in the Garden of Gethsemane paid justice for our sins. Could you explain why that and not his suffering on the cross?

[VeritasMama]

"He had not the ability to die,

we had not the ability to live,

so He took from us the power to die

so that He could give to us the power to live."

 

This is a quote I heard attributed to St. Augustine. I'm not sure if it is an accurate quote, but I think it is beautiful.

 

John 3:16 also sums up the meaning of the passion.

[Celia]

Jesus died to conquer sin and death.

 

I see him as our representative, not as a substitute. Otherwise we wouldn't die, which which obviously still do. He lived a sinless life, died, and because he was sinless, was raised from the dead. Through belief and baptism, we are "in Christ" and will likewise be raised from the dead.

 

I don't believe that Jesus is God, because God can't die, nor can he be tempted, and nor can he sin. The writers of the New Testament insist that Jesus was like us, tried in all manner as we are, and yet without sin. This is fundemental to the atonement. Jesus was the lamb provided by God, and while it was righteous of God to allow him to die, as he bore our nature, it was also righteous of God to raise him from the dead, as he was without sin. And when we look upon him in faith, as Israel looked upon the serpent on the pole, we can find salvation from our sins.

[Celia]

I still don't quite understand what "He died to conquer death" means. Obviously, everyone still dies. I guess "He died to conquer death" means we don't have to go to hell? But people still do go to hell, according to the NT, even professing Christians. It's confusing.

 

Someone posted this on facebook yesterday and it confused me even more:

 

I wonder: If all the layers of God were stripped away. If He were no longer our protector (Jehovah-Raah), or our companion (Jehovah-Shammah), our master (Adonai), if he no longer watched over us (El Roi), or provided for us (Jehovah-Jirah).....If He were just Messiah, our savior, would we worship Him anyway. Would simply saving us be enough to woo our devotion?

 

 

 

Hell is the grave, so yeah, we all go there. The hope is that we'll be resurrected and live again. The wages of sin is death (not eternal painful life), and the gift of God is eternal life through Christ, which will happen after the return of Christ.

 

As to the facebook comment, I don't believe Jesus was God, but he did perfectly show God's character to us through his words and actions, to the point that it could be said that if you'd seen him, you'd seen the Father. He was the image of the invisible God. That can't be said for anyone else... and it's certainly worthy of praise.

[JenniferB]

Jesus died to conquer death by death and to reconcile all things to Himself.

 

This portion of Scripture puts it really well.

 

Col. 1:13-23

 

"He has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love, in whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins. He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence. For it pleased the Father that in Him all the fullness should dwell, and by Him to reconcile all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross. And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight— if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard..."

 

We were just talking about this subject on another board, and the idea of reconciling or redeeming ALL things to Himself, as it was intended to be came up (in my mind). It was intended that all things created exist in a state of worship and communion with God, even time. Jesus even reconciled time to Himself on the cross and through the resurrection. You see this lived out in the framework of Orthodox Christianity. Everything we do, when we participate in the life of the Church is a chance to participate in this reconciled and redeemed creation. All things, even time, become an opportunity for communion (unity) with God, if we only participate. Though as we start out on this journey our vision of what this means is very dim, and we can only understand and see a glimmer of the light that is possible, as time goes on and we participate more and more and receive the soul healing that Christ works out in us, the light gets brighter and we see and understand more of what it means to live in this redeemed or reconciled state.

 

Disclaimer: I'm a brand new baby Orthodox Christian, so don't take my words as dogma. This is my personal experience as of yet. I don't speak for the whole Church, just for my own personal experience, and how this verse and this idea of salvation is being worked out in my life, thus far. It's a journey of repentance, cleansing, healing, and continuing on from "glory to glory."

"But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as by the Spirit of the Lord." -2 Corinthians 3:18

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[dangermom]

Without Jesus' sacrifice we could not be resurrected after death. He had to do it first. So yes, we all die--but it's temporary.

 

I would say that Christ conquered sin and death. But we still get sick. (OTOH, we still sin and we still die, it's just that those things don't win the victory. We won't get sick in the resurrection. Is that what is meant?)

[Lawana]

 

'

 

I've never heard that his suffering in the Garden of Gethsemane paid justice for our sins. Could you explain why that and not his suffering on the cross?

 

That belief, that the atonement occurred in the Garden of Gethsemane, is specific to the beliefs of members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. (Mormons, LDS)

 

[Laurie4b]

That belief, that the atonement occurred in the Garden of Gethsemane, is specific to the beliefs of members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. (Mormons, LDS)

 

 

So what made the atonement in the Garden of Gethsemane? And what happened on the cross?

[dangermom]

According to LDS belief, the Atonement happened both in the Garden and on the cross. It took both. There is an excellent description of it in a book...hang on...

 

well, of course now I can't find it. But LDS doctrine says that the Atonement started in the Garden of Gethsemane, as Christ took the weight of all sin and death and suffering upon himself. Then, upon the Cross, it happened again and the presence of the Father was even withdrawn from him for a time. After that part was finished, Christ voluntarily ended his life and gave himself as the final sacrifice.

[Laurie4b]

Thanks for answering my question. I'd never heard of this.

[bolt.]

I'm not LDS, but I'd certianly say that "the atonement" began before the cross -- pretty much at the time of Christ's incarnation/conception... Though perhaps, in view of the whole plan of history, I suppose it began the second after the first sin... Or, in view of the eternal plan if the eternal Christ, we could go even further back.

 

And the cross wasn't the end either. The ressurection was very much an atonement component.

[welovetoread]

I've never heard that his suffering in the Garden of Gethsemane paid justice for our sins. Could you explain why that and not his suffering on the cross?

 

I will try and take a stab at this. In the garden, Jesus prayed and was really struggling with what was to come. He pled with Heavenly Father to take the upcoming events from him, but also said thine will be done. During those moments, Jesus bled from the forehead and took upon him the weight of the world. It was the first time his blood was shed. He was then beaten and hung to die after God turned his back on him. He was them resurrected. Those 3 things give us the ability to retur to him someday.