Bang!Zoom! Posted January 5, 2013 Share Posted January 5, 2013 No iPad, no plug in anything. Just books and paper. I'm seriously thinking of disciplining myself in this area. Maybe next week go only half day with E anything, and the second devoid of it. There seems to be a difference in how much is retained and how that information is used later. Does that sound totally crazy? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arcadia Posted January 5, 2013 Share Posted January 5, 2013 Does not sound crazy at all to use just books and paper for Language Arts, Math, History/Geography/Social studies, Literature . Eventhough you would need to use the computer if your child is learning computer programming. And science experiments are fun in our house. A musical instrument is always fun to have with Music studies (like a recorder, harmonica ....) and art supplies are needed for Art Going off electronics one subject at a time might be easier than going off electronics for half a day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bang!Zoom! Posted January 5, 2013 Author Share Posted January 5, 2013 We block day, so it wouldn't be much an issue. I keep thinking I see something in her changing, and somehow I have this sense it's connected with what she handles materially, and when..but mostly the method of HOW it's done. At actually feeling a little guilty about it... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m0mmaBuck Posted January 5, 2013 Share Posted January 5, 2013 We are primarily books and paper. Occasionally we will watch a DVD or Netflix video related to a science or history subject. I let them use the computer to practice typing and draft the occasional email. But otherwise, our school is almost completely unplugged as per the WTM. Sometimes I feel guilty, like they are missing out. Most of the time I am happy that they are not dependent on technology for their education. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
momto2Cs Posted January 5, 2013 Share Posted January 5, 2013 Except for movies/documentaries, we're definitely a books-paper-pencils family. I almost never even read off the Kindle to them. I am trying to cut down on my computer time, and their "free" TV time as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TranquilMind Posted January 5, 2013 Share Posted January 5, 2013 No iPad, no plug in anything. Just books and paper. I'm seriously thinking of disciplining myself in this area. Maybe next week go only half day with E anything, and the second devoid of it. There seems to be a difference in how much is retained and how that information is used later. Does that sound totally crazy? No. This is exactly how we did it. The kids didn't even look at a computer until 5 or so, and then played once in awhile and watched a few minute of TV a few times a week. We read all the time. They are both fantastic students and are quite tech-savvy. Better late than early on this one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Down_the_Rabbit_Hole Posted January 5, 2013 Share Posted January 5, 2013 Except for movies/documentaries, we're definitely a books-paper-pencils family. I almost never even read off the Kindle to them. I am trying to cut down on my computer time, and their "free" TV time as well. This is us. At least for the 8 yr old. I have nothing against it, but for us it just doesn't happen. Electronics are used during off times but even then school subjects aren't on them., maybe if I stretch it and call some logic games school. My dd does go on the computer to type out a paper that has gone through the 2nd draft stage. We tried adding in reading eggs and a few other things but it was more of a hassle finding time to add them in then to just get school done that we dropped the idea. For my high schooler, the computer has been used more because of research and writing and this year Teaching Textbooks, Other electronic type things are not used though. I do think there could be a place for them though.Large families of littles I could see benefiting from electronic learning, moms who have jobs outside the home but still homeschool, or during a life interruption event (sickness, new baby, moving, etc). I am down to two now and one is a high schooler who does his work independently so my focus is all for the 8yr old. A more relaxed teaching method has reduced our school day to a few hours leaving this highly active child more time to play what she wants. She does pick up the NOOK or go on the computer but it is to play mindless things, read, write a story,or even a few fun logic games but I can pretty much guarantee if I added a learning app of some kind it would not get used by choice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotSoObvious Posted January 5, 2013 Share Posted January 5, 2013 We were like this until this year. They are 10, so I figured it was time for them to at least have some skills. We do typing and Dreambox online, and use the iPad for Cnn student news. I am on it WAY too much, but they only use it maybe once a week. My kids are readers, so it doesn't really bother me if they have some screen time. It bothered me more when they were younger and still developing the habit of reading. I know the two aren't mutually exclusive, but I do believe it helped. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
texasmama Posted January 5, 2013 Share Posted January 5, 2013 We do school unplugged. Free time is for messing around with electronics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regentrude Posted January 5, 2013 Share Posted January 5, 2013 We do most school with pencil and paper and books, and I prefer it that way, but there are some areas where electronic equipment is necessary: we need audio equipment for foreign language learning; unless the teacher is proficient in the language, I see no way around it: somewhere, the student needs to hear the language spoken. we need the computer to type written assignments. and we WANT our Teaching Company lectures!!! Must have lectures= must have CD player. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wheres Toto Posted January 5, 2013 Share Posted January 5, 2013 I'm sorry but the first thing I thought reading your post was - we couldn't do without the lights and the electric pencil sharpener. :smilielol5: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shelsi Posted January 5, 2013 Share Posted January 5, 2013 You know I used to be like this. I've been anti-screen for a long time ever since I saw my own grades improve drastically in college 15 yrs ago when my roommate moved out and took the TV & computer with her - at that point the only screen time I had was going to the computer lab to type my papers. So anyways I've always been super restrictive about the kids and TV. However then I began to notice something about my oldest. He learns REALLY well from electronics. He understands & retains almost anything he sees on TV. In 1st grade I started to let him watch some History Channel documentaries and 2 years later he can still talk about those topics relating back to the information from the show. He does not have the same retention from books or me teaching it to him. So I've had to re-align my thoughts on electronics, at least for my oldest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karen in CO Posted January 5, 2013 Share Posted January 5, 2013 How much electronic learning do you currently utilize? My older dd's school is very paper-pencil-people oriented. The only e-learning they do is for a one-a-year research project, math enrichment and then in the upper grades for math and physics modeling. When she was at home, we she did internet research and typed papers and did presentations on the computer. For my younger dd, the only e-learning we use as part of school is some math fact practice. She does quite a bit "after school." She watches some educational videos, plays Stack the States, and makes her own presentations plus a few other things, but we don't consider any of that part of school. I try to keep her busy doing "real" things instead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bang!Zoom! Posted January 5, 2013 Author Share Posted January 5, 2013 Karen, I noticed last night while putting together folders (I'm about to sign up with a HS state thing, whatever you call them) - and part of the agreement is to keep portfolios, samples, etc. Just a lot of paperwork organization stuff...and I'm not a big "keeper" of paper trails. But once I'm signed up as the instructor, I have to do this. So..put the files together, details of what needs to be in there, and I realized I really have a paper gap. I don't keep her worksheets, her notebooks, her projects, we just keep going forward. Now I have to change. We are very heavy users of documentaries, math is very Khan heavy, history is a lot of field work, science goes down the drain and into the trash, drafts get tossed in English, on and on you see? I have been missing a printer for a few months, so everything was being hand done and transcribed- and that's where I started noticing the difference between screen and paper. She had a new type of retention happening, and I really wondered if it was the fact that paper and pen, handling a book to transcribe (because it's naturally slower as a process) - was the key to the "cementing" of the work. I really don't know if it was the turtle speed, the eyes to paper, the sensory difference..whatever it is caused by (most likely everything, nothing weighted as the reason) - was causing a deeper understanding. Now I feel like I'm being chasitied and made a mistake in being so visually/screen heavy. I need to keep paper records now, and I'm not really in a place where I can collect hard copy books for primary research (so the net is still invaluable) - but I do feel like something is unbalanced, and maybe experimenting with half day "off" and half day "on" might help me sort that out. If you add to that the ideals of a almost Wendell Barry-ism virtue (and others) - I really feel like I've fallen flat with her in areas. In any case, something is out of balance, and my mama spider senses are saying it's electronic. If I had to throw a percentage on it right now, I'd say we are probably 70% E learning, and 30% old school overall. I don't sense any ability gaps in handling either arena of electric or plain, but there is something about the retention that's driving me nuts. There's a difference with her. I have to go forward and keep this paperwork mountain anyway for archiving it all, so this seems like an opportune time to make some adjustments. I wish we had the ability to throw people in the mix Karen, but that's not going to happen here across the board, we are in a really isolated situation for now. Hopefully that'll change in the near future. That part really stinks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
texasmama Posted January 5, 2013 Share Posted January 5, 2013 OP, in your shoes, I would take pictures (with a cell phone if needed) of science experiments, keep a log of Khan Academy videos viewed, etc. as a record of what you are doing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bang!Zoom! Posted January 5, 2013 Author Share Posted January 5, 2013 I was actually looking around last night for a Khan printout system. When we had Aleks that kept really nifty charts - but I haven't seen anything like that for Khan, but I'm sure it's out there somewhere. I need to spend some time looking for that. That's a really good idea on the science and photography, I never even thought of that. Duh! Thanks! Super helpful! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swellmomma Posted January 5, 2013 Share Posted January 5, 2013 This is how we mostly learn. The only thing the kids do with electronics is their online classes on the desktop, and their MUS dvd lessons, and sometimes Khan. Everything else is paper and pencil basically. Keep a log next to the computer or electronic source you are using for things like Khan and documentaries like the pp suggested, lots of pictures and try to get as close to a 50/50 split as you can get with the bigger percent being paper since you are seeing a new level of learning with her. Using electronic sources is not a bad thing by far, being savvy on using that stuff is a great skill to have in this era, but I still lean towards heavier balance on paper and pen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murphy101 Posted January 5, 2013 Share Posted January 5, 2013 I don't use any electronic learning. It's completely unnecessary and often not as effective anyways. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stansclan89 Posted January 5, 2013 Share Posted January 5, 2013 Except for movies/documentaries, we're definitely a books-paper-pencils family. I almost never even read off the Kindle to them. I am trying to cut down on my computer time, and their "free" TV time as well. This is us too. I keep thinking that maybe we should be getting our literature for the Kindle to save on bookshelf space, but the books I want aren't on there. I like to feel a book and turn the pages anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karen in CO Posted January 5, 2013 Share Posted January 5, 2013 ...... We are very heavy users of documentaries, math is very Khan heavy, history is a lot of field work, science goes down the drain and into the trash, drafts get tossed in English, on and on you see? I have been missing a printer for a few months, so everything was being hand done and transcribed- and that's where I started noticing the difference between screen and paper. She had a new type of retention happening, and I really wondered if it was the fact that paper and pen, handling a book to transcribe (because it's naturally slower as a process) - was the key to the "cementing" of the work. I really don't know if it was the turtle speed, the eyes to paper, the sensory difference..whatever it is caused by (most likely everything, nothing weighted as the reason) - was causing a deeper understanding. .... In any case, something is out of balance, and my mama spider senses are saying it's electronic. ..... I don't sense any ability gaps in handling either arena of electric or plain, but there is something about the retention that's driving me nuts. There's a difference with her. ....... I am a computer person - I work for a BIG computer company from home, and my job is 100% technology-based. BUT let me tell you something about me. I take all of my notes in pencil (or crayon if my pencils and pens have walked off). I have to physically write something down to get it into my head. I've always had a great memory for things that I write. It is just the way I learn. I never thought anything was weird about it until I started working in computers. That is when I noticed that typing isn't the same thing. Maybe your dd just retains better if she writes it herself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bang!Zoom! Posted January 5, 2013 Author Share Posted January 5, 2013 There's definitely something to it. I feel like I'm on home-school mom probation and in the klink...lol. Maybe it's developmental as well - it's probably a little of everything and not one solution. I actually got all verbal about it last night instead ,of just ruminating- I told her there is a change coming and she didn't seem to balk or disagree with it. So we'll see. I don't want to go too far the other way either, but just find a good balance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regentrude Posted January 5, 2013 Share Posted January 5, 2013 I am a computer person - I work for a BIG computer company from home, and my job is 100% technology-based. BUT let me tell you something about me. I take all of my notes in pencil (or crayon if my pencils and pens have walked off). I have to physically write something down to get it into my head. I've always had a great memory for things that I write. It is just the way I learn. I never thought anything was weird about it until I started working in computers. That is when I noticed that typing isn't the same thing. Maybe your dd just retains better if she writes it herself. The same is true for me. If I want to retain something, I have to write it by hand on paper. And in my field, physics, I have not seen a computer based program that would accomplish the same learning effect as the student solving problems on paper or on the blackboard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeacefulChaos Posted January 5, 2013 Share Posted January 5, 2013 I'm pretty old school with learning. We never use the computer. The boys may use the iPad for a fun math exercise once every couple weeks, tops. I do let Astro watch the DVD with me for his math (MUS), and Link has a penpal that he emails once a month or so. Aside from that, we're relatively technology free for school. :) I am going to do a keyboarding course for Link next year, however. I was going to wait til 6th grade or so, but I'd rather go ahead and give him the good habits earlier on than have him learn how to type incorrectly. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kdownie Posted January 6, 2013 Share Posted January 6, 2013 We are definitely a books and paper family too. We use the computer/tv for videos or images (usually history or science, when she wants to see what something looks like) but that is it. I have the millions of binders to prove it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilverMoon Posted January 6, 2013 Share Posted January 6, 2013 It doesn't sound crazy at all. We've had years we were more dependent on the computer and websites, and I was glad for them for a season, but we all do much better with a real book, paper and pencil. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoPlaceLikeHome Posted January 6, 2013 Share Posted January 6, 2013 I was actually looking around last night for a Khan printout system. When we had Aleks that kept really nifty charts - but I haven't seen anything like that for Khan, but I'm sure it's out there somewhere. I need to spend some time looking for that. That's a really good idea on the science and photography, I never even thought of that. Duh! Thanks! Super helpful! When she does Khan does she do the problem sets on paper? Is she still doing about 20 to 30 problems in math a day on paper? IMO 20 to 30 problems of math per day are really needed for mastery. The various programs my ds has used have required a minimum of 20 to 30 problems in math per day. I see nothing wrong with Khan and other educational videos as long as writing is a significant part of the day. My ds does use a good of amount of educational videos and occasional educational games via TV or computer. OTOH he has spent a significant amount of time with paper and pencil work doing cursive, copy work, spelling, writing, grammar, and history and science. A teacher once told me that the more senses on uses to learn the better. This teacher recommended seeing , saying, reading, hearing, and writing out things to be learned. Writing involves the brain and fine motor and touch. I believe it is better than typing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bang!Zoom! Posted January 6, 2013 Author Share Posted January 6, 2013 She does mostly geometry on Khan, it seems to be her favorite area for a while now, so she's not drawing them out, etc. She does do a lot of Saxon transcription on paper. As far as amount of problems worked, I think she's good on the 20-30 problems solved. She does most of her "writing" on screen, through dragonspeak and word processing programs, all her drafts and finals are on the machine. I printed out a slew of penmanship trace papers for this week coming up. For research work, it's a little more heavy on the note taking and organizing aspects. She can find her way through a library pretty well, she's in year two of learning how to find and organize primary resources. Mechanics of grammar is still not her strong suit on paper. That definitely needs some beefing up. I was looking at quizlet the other day (electronic, I know) and was comparing that to the recommendations in WTM- I just don't have the cash resources for a ton of workbooks- and it (quizlet) seems to have the right format for roots, suffix/prefix and entomology work; along with Word Power books. I'm wondering if reading it to her, and having her transcribe it long-hand would work? I absolutely love the comment about "the more senses one uses to learn the better." I think there is something really valuable in that short statement. That's going to be hanging in my head all day. :) Makes a ton of sense to me right now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UrbanSue Posted January 6, 2013 Share Posted January 6, 2013 We do everything with books, pencils and paper. But my kids are still fairly young. We don't have a tv and we only ocassionally watch a movie on our one computer. I have an iPod Touch which the kids are not allowed to use. It doesn't seem crazy at all, though I can imagine it being hard to cut back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wheres Toto Posted January 6, 2013 Share Posted January 6, 2013 We are definitely not anti-screen here - the kids play computer, watch tv and dvds. But, I don't do any of our official school on the computer. The kids would probably love it, and ds at least would probably do really well with it, but because it's their first choice for free time, I'd rather not have them on it for school too. We will occasionally watch a video for history, science or spanish. They have some math games on their computers that I'll get them to play sometimes. But almost all our regular work is workbooks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myra Posted January 6, 2013 Share Posted January 6, 2013 Sometimes the multi-sensory modes of learning are effective enough to override some of our inherent dislike of electrical devices. Learning to keyboard and use microsoft word (and it's editing/revision) features is absolutely was absolutely necessary for my son to succeed with his learning disabilities. Using Cambridge Latin's online review plus their CDs have been invaluable in learning to read and speak Latin at our house. And this year, the Conceptual Chemistry's supplementary online videos have transformed my son from a kid who hated science to one that really enjoys it now. After reading a novel, we often go to spark notes and take their online quizes. So although I'd say alot of our work is pencil and paper - I definitely would never cut off the electronic aspects. Myra Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
srs Posted January 6, 2013 Share Posted January 6, 2013 Mine are little, but here's what we do: the first half of the day is screen free, which is when schoolwork gets done. The second half of the day the kids are allowed to watch something, which is when I plan to put documentaries when we get there. No screens after dinner. It works pretty well for us. I need the no screens in the morning rule for myself to keep on task and get housework, etc. done too, and to really focus on schoolwork and the kids. And in the afternoon it's nice to have a break and chill out and check email and stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lea1 Posted January 6, 2013 Share Posted January 6, 2013 The same is true for me. If I want to retain something, I have to write it by hand on paper. And in my field, physics, I have not seen a computer based program that would accomplish the same learning effect as the student solving problems on paper or on the blackboard. Same for me also. My degree is in Computer Science and I worked in that field for many years. I often have to write things to remember them and I am and always have been a "picture" person. I always needed to draw pictures of things when thinking through a work project. When one of my sons is reading a book and runs into a word he doesn't know, he spells it aloud to me. I have to picture it in my mind. Sometime I just can't do it so I have to actually see it to tell him what it is. My guys are still pretty young (we just started 2nd grade) but we have not used electronic learning for anything really. The boys like to play games so I signed them up for a math type game online but they quickly grew bored with it so we are back to doing flash cards for memorization of math facts. For second grade we have just added Latin and I was not confident about teaching it so I bought the DVD to go with Prima Latina so we are watching it once a week now. That is pretty much it for us on electronic learning and we will keep it that way until I decide it is time to teach the boys to type. It will be a while yet though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mommy22alyns Posted January 6, 2013 Share Posted January 6, 2013 That's pretty much daily life here. We don't have any tablets. They use the computer for xtramath and Rebecca watches her Latin DVD, and we occasionally do research online. I prefer it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clarkd Posted January 6, 2013 Share Posted January 6, 2013 We don't do any electronics for learning. We do watch 30 min. kid video each evening during nebulizer time but that's it. I use Ipad during nap and after they go to bed. I do wonder if my 6yo who hates math would do better online with fact practice. As they get older we will add technology. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Χά�ων Posted January 6, 2013 Share Posted January 6, 2013 We are low tec. Pencil and paper works for us and probably will for years to come. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HS Mom in NC Posted January 6, 2013 Share Posted January 6, 2013 We used a typing computer program in the late elementary years until the older two could type well. My youngest does a couple of hours total per week on computer games for math review (Singapore Math.) My older two type out their History assignments. Other than occasional online research once every few years, we do paper and pencil almost all the time. We included documentaries by Ken Burns for our Civil War and WWII studies and others on Boenhoffer, a few of The Founders and Francis Schaeffer's "How Should We Then Live?" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AngelaNYC Posted January 7, 2013 Share Posted January 7, 2013 We don't use anything but books and paper. It's what we've done for years and ds prefers it that way. He loves electronics and uses them often - he even got a gaming laptop for Christmas - but just not for schoolwork. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pehp Posted January 7, 2013 Share Posted January 7, 2013 My oldest is only 5 but we are pencils, books and paper only also. I do not anticipate changing this anytime soon. We don't own video games or watch TV (save for the news and Andy Griffith reruns a few times a week). My children watch DVDs sometimes but not daily. My son likes to watch k'nex building videos on YouTube with my dh after dinner-he's very visual and it inspires him...I don't mind it!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoVanGogh Posted January 7, 2013 Share Posted January 7, 2013 My husband and I have been pretty anti-tech in the school. DH attended college to become a software engineer in the 80s, long before computers were in the school or home. We both have felt that the engineers that put man on the moon didn't learn via computer. Instead they had time and passion to tear into things and see how they work. That said - our son was just diagnosed with a neuromuscular disorder and the specialists are telling me to embrace technology because it will make his life so much easier. I see that I now need to embrace technology and am about to open the flood gates on electronic learning. But I hate technology! We bought a new computer for DS and it has Windows 8. Software should be 'backward compatible' and work on Win 8, but we have yet to find anything that does. :cursing: So now we have a new computer and no educational software. We knew this could be an issue, but even the software we bougtht that said it would run on Win 8 didn't. :glare: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arghmatey Posted January 8, 2013 Share Posted January 8, 2013 We own a technology company, and I don't use any technology for lessons. That's a lie. Perhaps once a month or less my daughter will complete a Mark Kistler lesson online, and I plan for her to do an online activity once a week for Wordly Wise review. I'm also trying to add in a video or Netflix component in once a week--if we get to it. I'm open to using it more, but I don't know what I would sacrifice in order to squeeze more technology into our routine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justamouse Posted January 8, 2013 Share Posted January 8, 2013 We are books and paper. Come to think of it, we actually don't use the computers at all for school. I know for myself, when I set pen to paper, I think better, more logically, I'm much more focused. Actually, when I HAVE to really focus? I break out a pen and paper. So, for us, I think much more is retained and thought out when less is done electronically. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melmichigan Posted January 8, 2013 Share Posted January 8, 2013 We made the shift from everything online the first year we homeschooled to the minority on computer/ipad after I found WTM and joined the hive. Oldest DD has an online class, and DS had a math tutor he meets with twice a week via computer. I have also found that I like to approach science both in books and with online interactive programs, I see better retentions in that subject with multiple applications for both visual and auditory learners. For the most part computer and ipad use is supplemental, reinforcing math facts, playing geography games, spelling drills. It's a choice to use less, but I wouldn't completely eliminate it because I see the benefit when juggling 5 DC. Sometimes it's nice to hand a child the ipad and the CC app and have them practice memory work while I solve whatever crisis with another. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
happypamama Posted January 9, 2013 Share Posted January 9, 2013 We don't generally use electronic learning, just paper and pencil (and we're low-screen with the kids too, no TV, very limited computer and movie time), but I also don't discount the benefits of electronics in learning. E-reading has been a blessing for my child who dislikes reading; she can't skip around easily, and it's exciting to her to use the e-reader. She prefers to compose on the computer, and if it encourages her to write creatively more, I'm all for it. I'm not opposed to some edutainment; I grew up playing Carmen Sandiego and learning a ton about geography and history from it, so I'm not bothered by the occasional drill game/app. And I think, at some point, some computer/typing skills are necessary in today's world. I guess I figure everything in moderation, and electronics have their place, I suppose. We do mostly paper, pencil, paper books, etc., but I have found that judicious use of electronics is yielding great benefits. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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