a thought...

[ktgrok]

Why is it that using the library (cost of staff, wear and tear on books, etc) is a good moral thing to do, despite it being government funded, but using food stamps is looked down on? Both invovle using government benefits that our tax dollars pay for, but I never see people claiming that buying your own books is the moral thing to do, and using the publicly funded library means you are dependent on the government.

[Stayseeliz]

I think people are more guarded about the food stamp program because there is so much fraud involved. Where as the library is meant for everyone regardless of financial status. I'm all for food stamps if it's needed but there is a ton of fraud at times.

[Erica in OR]

Well, our community had a big to-do over a tax measure that was on the ballot to create a county library service district, meaning that local taxes would go up to cover increased library hours, more library materials, and staff/materials for many much smaller communities in the county. It went on the ballot twice before passing (it required over 50% of voters to cast a vote, and needed to have over 50% of those voters to vote yes). It was very contentious. I'm a huge fan of our library and voted yes, but was surprised as some other people in our homeschool group who did not feel the same. They felt they should not be funding the smaller community libraries with their tax money and didn't necessarily want the library having free rein to purchase many more materials, such as an overload of DVDs, etc. and to have such a large staff.

 

My DH had a lot of discussion with others about moving to a model of private libraries.

 

So although I agree library vs. food stamp tax money is quite often as you say, I think there is still at times definite judgment passed even about how tax dollars are being used at the library.

 

Erica in OR

[morningcoffee]

Why is it that using the library (cost of staff, wear and tear on books, etc) is a good moral thing to do, despite it being government funded, but using food stamps is looked down on? Both invovle using government benefits that our tax dollars pay for, but I never see people claiming that buying your own books is the moral thing to do, and using the publicly funded library means you are dependent on the government.

 

 

Yes!!!!!!!

[SKL]

Because the library is a community resource for all, kinda like the roads. Food stamps is forcibly taking from one group to give to another. There needs to be a good reason to take something from me (and my kids) in that manner and give us nothing in return.

[happypamama]

Honestly, I think it's because we want to think that people who are financially disadvantaged are there because of their own choices -- because we want to assure ourselves that that won't happen to us, don't want to confront (for lack of a better phrase) our own financial mortality.

 

Incidentally, I really don't care if people buy the occasional soda or chips or cookies (or even cakes) with food stamps. But it bugs me plenty that my libraries have a lot of computer activities and junky books (poor quality, both physical and literary, based on movies, etc.) -- that use of "my" (because once I pay them, they're not really mine) tax dollars bugs me a lot.

 

ETA: I also think we think of libraries as being for the greater good, to educate and inform people, and they're for everyone, rich or poor. But I personally would rather someone buy fruits, veggies, and proteins via food stamps paid for by "my" tax dollars than someone play computer games and borrow movie-related twaddle paid for by "my" tax dollars.

[SKL]

Honestly, I think it's because we want to think that people who are financially disadvantaged are there because of their own choices -- because we want to assure ourselves that that won't happen to us, don't want to confront (for lack of a better phrase) our own financial mortality.

 

Incidentally, I really don't care if people buy the occasional soda or chips or cookies (or even cakes) with food stamps. But it bugs me plenty that my libraries have a lot of computer activities and junky books (poor quality, both physical and literary, based on movies, etc.) -- that use of my tax dollars bugs me a lot.

 

 

I think you really have something there with the bolded. I can think of ne'er-do-wells in my life who enjoy putting other people down, i.e., the pot calling the kettle black. They seem to enjoy it much more than those of us who are actually carrying the majority of the tax burden.

[Mrs Mungo]

I live in a house provided by the government, my dh's salary is completely provided by the government and we get plenty of other perks from the government. Am I okay or not? What about the lower enlisted soliders with families who are on food stamps? Are they not okay all of the sudden? It's just a very weird perspective.

[OH_Homeschooler]

 

I also agree with what was said about abuse. How many people abuse the library?

 

 

Oh, my librarian friend could tell you stories...

[Slartibartfast]

"Bah!" said Scrooge, "Humbug!"

[ktgrok]

 

(I'm not against govt. assistance.)

 

Your husband works for the government. It's not exactly "provided" by the government in the sense he is doing nothing in return.

 

most people on food stamps paid into the system at one time, so it's not like they did nothing in return either. That's the part I don't get. You pay taxes for this program, and sometimes you might use the program. I pay taxes for the fire department too, and if my house catches on fire I'll use that service too. I don't go around complaining about people mooching off the government because they want the tax funded fire department to put out their house fire. Only some people use it, those that need it. Same with food stamps. (not talking about people abusing them, I'm talking about the idea that using them at all is sending a message to one's kids that is against self sufficiency)

[happypamama]

 

Well actually I like the idea of food stamps for the very reason I don't want to starve my kids if something should happen to our income.

 

Oh, I do too. I do like knowing that if my DH lost his job, at least we would not be hungry. (Actually, we'd eat better; for a family of our size, the allotment for food stamps would be more than our regular grocery budget.) I do think it's reasonable that you should be attempting to do *something* productive if you're getting food stamps, or have a legitimate reason why you can't (whether it's being disabled, caring for a young child, or homeschooling children), but I'm not at all opposed to them. But I think a lot of people are not fans of food stamps because they don't want to face the fact that, through no fault of their own, they could be in need of assistance.

[Murphy101]

I think people are more guarded about the food stamp program because there is so much fraud involved. Where as the library is meant for everyone regardless of financial status. I'm all for food stamps if it's needed but there is a ton of fraud at times.

 

There is plenty of fraud and misuse and theft in libraries. Stolen books, hack the library computer for porn, ect..

 

Because the library is a community resource for all, kinda like the roads. Food stamps is forcibly taking from one group to give to another. There needs to be a good reason to take something from me (and my kids) in that manner and give us nothing in return.

 

I think a better example would be college grants. It is not a community service for all, but it is absolutely a use of tax dollars that I bet every parent here wanted to use for themselves and hope their kid gets plenty of.

 

And that's not even touching the huge numbers of student loans that never get paid back or at so minute a rate as to be nearly useless.

[Audrey]

Why is it that using the library (cost of staff, wear and tear on books, etc) is a good moral thing to do, despite it being government funded, but using food stamps is looked down on? Both invovle using government benefits that our tax dollars pay for, but I never see people claiming that buying your own books is the moral thing to do, and using the publicly funded library means you are dependent on the government.

 

 

I think it says a lot about a country where so many people parse out the expenditure of tax dollars as if it were a personal matter. I am not unfamiliar with the belief that there are "my tax dollars" as opposed to a pool of tax dollars. Most other countries citizens do not feel this way, although most countries citizens certainly are paying taxes.

 

I think the "my tax dollar" people need to get over themselves already. It ceased being your money the moment it went in the collective coffers. You get a say on how they are spent by voting. If you are outvoted or if you don't vote, then STFU. Everyone receives benefits from the collective tax pool one way or another anyway. In a sense you're (we're) ALL on the dole, so what's with all the whinging?

[Sukale]

I think it is the hardest for people who are right on the line for getting help. Say Jo make $500 a year too much to get any help. Neighbor Bob just made the cut to get help by $500 a year the other way. Bob gets WIC, FS, free public preschool or daycare and whatever other help the is out there. So now even though Jo makes a little more money than Bob, Jo has to to pay out hundreds more a month than Bob. Jo is upset that Bob gets a handout. Jo has to do without a lot of the things neighbor Bob gets because he is not getting that little bit of extra help. This is coming from someone who has always been a Jo and has to make it on her own, while my sister has always been a Bob and has been able to get help.

[Audrey]

 

See I wouldn't be so sure of that. I've met plenty of Germans who think about "my tax dollars". Not my husband, but yes, others.

 

I guess where some get rather bitter is that there is a large number of people kind of on the edge. They aren't poor enough to qualify for help, but they are poor and they can't seem to get ahead. An example of that was my sister some years ago. She is disabled. She paid into the system long enough to collect disability based on earned time (which I believe pays more). She was paid $1000 a month. She lives in an expensive state. You can't rent anything for under $500 where she is and even that would be next to impossible to find. She didn't qualify for medical assistance because they said she earned too much money. I mean she is DISABLED which means she needed medical treatment for her condition including expensive medications. But she couldn't get it because $1000 a month was supposedly too much money.

 

 

Well, you see... I live in an area with a very high German immigrant population and I have the opposite experience of you in that they do not have a "my tax dollars" mentality. Not at all.

 

And, to your second paragraph... I agree. It is quite obvious that the people who most like to denigrate and bemoan those on assistance are the ones who are also poor themselves, but are juuuust above the line for qualifying for assistance. I see it as the same kind of attitude of "you can't get ahead if I can't." It isn't the fault of the person on assistance that someone else doesn't qualify, though. The blame is going in the wrong direction -- if indeed, any blame is warranted at all.

[happypamama]

I think it is the hardest for people who are right on the line for getting help. Say Jo make $500 a year too much to get any help. Neighbor Bob just made the cut to get help by $500 a year the other way. Bob gets WIC, FS, free public preschool or daycare and whatever other help the is out there. So now even though Jo makes a little more money than Bob, Jo has to to pay out hundreds more a month than Bob. Jo is upset that Bob gets a handout. Jo has to do without a lot of the things neighbor Bob gets because he is not getting that little bit of extra help. This is coming from someone who has always been a Jo and has to make it on her own, while my sister has always been a Bob and has been able to get help.

 

Yes, I think this is a big problem. It doesn't encourage people to take a step up, either, if they do get it. I remember back when we had just one child, my DH's coworker had three kids and a wife, and he was right on the line where if he got any kind of raise, his kids would lose their health insurance. If you're able to get WIC, food stamps, healthcare (and in my state, the state healthcare is very good and comprehensive for children), etc., a small raise in income might actually put you further behind. That's a big problem, IMO.

[TXBeth]

I think it is the hardest for people who are right on the line for getting help. Say Jo make $500 a year too much to get any help. Neighbor Bob just made the cut to get help by $500 a year the other way. Bob gets WIC, FS, free public preschool or daycare and whatever other help the is out there. So now even though Jo makes a little more money than Bob, Jo has to to pay out hundreds more a month than Bob. Jo is upset that Bob gets a handout. Jo has to do without a lot of the things neighbor Bob gets because he is not getting that little bit of extra help. This is coming from someone who has always been a Jo and has to make it on her own, while my sister has always been a Bob and has been able to get help.

 

The problem with this scenario is that it just doesn't happen that way. At least in my home state, someone who "just barely" qualifies is not going to receive gobs of food stamps, free daycare, etc. Food stamps are on a sliding scale, so someone who barely qualifies might receive $20/month, whereas someone with virtually no income at all might receive $800. Also, Jo, if she is only $500 over the line for food stamps, would certainly qualify for Wic, and quite possibly for much-reduced health insurance for her kids as well.

[TravelingChris]

I am sure there is a lot of food stamp abuse but my experiences are with disability and with section 8. I watch some court shows and invariably there are people on disability and in section 8 housing who shouldn't be. People who trash the houses they had us pay for them and people who get disability for children who need no special money. It kills me when they give disability money for ADHD kids- and the parents live off of that money which is supposed to be used to give special treatments for the child- and with ADHD, you need only medical treatments- medications and therapy, possibly, nothing that the parents could provide at home so why are they getting hundreds of dollars of gov't money? It is a gaint scam and meantime, Joanne's husband with serious liver problems and lots of my friends with issues such as debilitating arthritis or cancers can't get disability for years even though they worked for twenty or thirty or forty years. It is outrageous.

[AimeeM]

I don't use the library.

 

(I don't have a horse in this race; I'm just being silly - although I really DON'T use the library, lol)

[AimeeM]

 

most people on food stamps paid into the system at one time, so it's not like they did nothing in return either. That's the part I don't get. You pay taxes for this program, and sometimes you might use the program. I pay taxes for the fire department too, and if my house catches on fire I'll use that service too. I don't go around complaining about people mooching off the government because they want the tax funded fire department to put out their house fire. Only some people use it, those that need it. Same with food stamps. (not talking about people abusing them, I'm talking about the idea that using them at all is sending a message to one's kids that is against self sufficiency)

Just a quick fyi - I have no problem with food stamps or other government assistance programs.

But I'm not sure I buy the whole "they paid into it" gig. Everyone I know personally, who receives assistance, also receives (in the form of a refund) more than they put in. I'm sure someone more versed on it than myself can clarify and even argue it (I may be off base).

[Mergath]

Why? I'm guessing because most of the people around here actually need the library, so they find an inane excuse for why it's really not the same thing at all. Just like how they need to drive on public roads, or they need the police and the military to keep them safe, so those things are a-okay.

 

They don't need food stamps, so they boost themselves up by putting down those who do.

[Audrey]

The problem with this scenario is that it just doesn't happen that way. At least in my home state, someone who "just barely" qualifies is not going to receive gobs of food stamps, free daycare, etc. Food stamps are on a sliding scale, so someone who barely qualifies might receive $20/month, whereas someone with virtually no income at all might receive $800. Also, Jo, if she is only $500 over the line for food stamps, would certainly qualify for Wic, and quite possibly for much-reduced health insurance for her kids as well.

 

 

Here we do not have food stamps. Here, if you are on assistance, you get a cheque (or direct deposit) for whatever amount of assistance you qualified for when you applied. You spend it on what you need to spend it on to live. No one micromanages your grocery list.

[Sukale]

Everyone can use the library and everyone can use the road. The government does not give everyone food stamps.

[Mergath]

Everyone can use the library and everyone can use the road. The government does not give everyone food stamps.

 

 

They give them to everyone who qualifies. It wouldn't make much sense to give them to people making a six figure salary just for the sake of fairness. Even the government has more common sense than that. And with many libraries, you have to live in that county to get a card. Does that mean the people outside of that county ought to get up in arms and demand to validate all book purchases, to make sure they approve of how their tax dollars are being spent?

 

Come on.

[nmoira]

Everyone can use the library and everyone can use the road. The government does not give everyone food stamps.

 

 

I was brought up in a country which took for granted the idea that benefits such as healthcare should be universal precisely for this reason. Universality, caring for yourself and your fellow man. I vaguely remember Bob Rae getting all sentimental years ago talking about how this is how we show our love for our fellow man.

[Caroline]

Never mind.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I think a better example would be college grants. It is not a community service for all, but it is absolutely a use of tax dollars that I bet every parent here wanted to use for themselves and hope their kid gets plenty of.

 

And that's not even touching the huge numbers of student loans that never get paid back or at so minute a rate as to be nearly useless.

[Murphy101]

Never mind.

 

Well now I'm curious. :)

[Melissa in Australia]

I think it says a lot about a country where so many people parse out the expenditure of tax dollars as if it were a personal matter. I am not unfamiliar with the belief that there are "my tax dollars" as opposed to a pool of tax dollars. Most other countries citizens do not feel this way, although most countries citizens certainly are paying taxes.

 

I think the "my tax dollar" people need to get over themselves already. It ceased being your money the moment it went in the collective coffers. You get a say on how they are spent by voting. If you are outvoted or if you don't vote, then STFU. Everyone receives benefits from the collective tax pool one way or another anyway. In a sense you're (we're) ALL on the dole, so what's with all the whinging?

:iagree:

well said

[Melissa in Australia]

I was brought up in a country which took for granted the idea that benefits such as healthcare should be universal precisely for this reason. Universality, caring for yourself and your fellow man. I vaguely remember Bob Rae getting all sentimental years ago talking about how this is how we show our love for our fellow man.

 

And I still live in a country that thinks this exactly.

[Audrey]

I was brought up in a country which took for granted the idea that benefits such as healthcare should be universal precisely for this reason. Universality, caring for yourself and your fellow man. I vaguely remember Bob Rae getting all sentimental years ago talking about how this is how we show our love for our fellow man.

 

 

You'll be pleased to know Bob is still going strong. :001_cool:

[Susann]

 

Oh, my librarian friend could tell you stories...

and so could I!

[Murphy101]

No, I didn't mean interests rates. I meant how crazy long it takes to pay them back. It's ridiculous that many people have shorter mortgages than student repayment times.

[Serenade]

Because the library is freely available to all, not just a select few.

[SKL]

Not everyone pays back their student loans as slowly as possible. I hated having all that debt (at one point I had about $200,000 of debt in my name, though I only actually owed about $135K of that amount :).)

 

I graduated with $85,000 in student loans. My interest rates were mostly variable, with a floor of 6% and a ceiling of 12%. They were in fact 12% for a while - ouch! My payments were as high as $1,000 per month in my first year of post-university employment. They didn't have any education tax breaks back then. It was a tough time.

 

It was such a lousy feeling being buried in debt, that I arranged my budget so every spare penny went to pay down debt - highest interest first etc. I was student loan free in 7 years, debt free not long thereafter.

 

I don't think I saved any money borrowing on student loans, considering the fees and high interest. But I don't regret doing it. I just hope my kids don't have to mortgage their whole life to get their educations.

 

I don't know why a university education has come to be so expensive. Must have something to do with how easy it is to get subsidies to pay for it.

[OH_Homeschooler]

 

LOL, I'm sure. I suppose stealing books from the library is abuse. Damaging books and equipment would be abuse. So ok, yeah I imagine these things happen.

 

 

Homeless people camping out there all day, taking "baths" using the bathroom sink.

 

Parents (even homeschooling parents) just dropping the kids off and expecting free babysitting, etc.

[Laurie4b]

I'll start by saying that I think food stamps are an important safety net and I support having them.

 

To answer your question, a library, like roads, police protection, and food safety inspections, theoretically benefits all citizens equally: people feel that they have paid into the system and are getting a value for what they paid.

 

With regard to food stamps, people who are are not receiving food stamps who are complaining about them do so because they see "their share" of the communal tax money going to another set of people. In the case of food stamps, people may see someone at the register buying things that they do not view as a good use of their money. In that case, an individual becomes the symbol of everyone on food stamps.

 

Secondly, the budget seems so out of control and scary, much of it is incomprehensible to the average person, and "food stamp use" is a nice concrete target of blame for the angst of worrying about where our country is going financially. People can understand "some people are scamming/making bad choices on food stamps." But we're not in the place we are financially because of too many Doritos.

 

While I agree that there is a contempt for the poor shown by some who complain, and I think the "misuse of food stamps" is way overblown, had an argument with a family member complaining about it this month, and I am generally a bleeding heart :) , if you think of it in terms of a private interaction, there is some merit to evaluating it. For instance, if my adult child were in financial trouble, and I gave her some money thinking I was helping with a necessity like electricity and found out she had purchased a Coach pocketbook with it, I would stop the money. Back when I was in social work school, the topic of "workfare" was heresy. Pretty literally. Some years later, under Bill Clinton, it was instituted and turned out not to be a disaster, but helpful in some respects. So I think there is a place to evaluate--but evaluation without contempt. It is the contempt that is damaging both to the recipients and to the person feeling it.

 

I anticipate community scorn at the grocery store rising once national healthcare kicks in--because then, due to tax money paying for everyone's health care, an overweight person (with all the increase in health problems) will be costing people who are thin money. (I'm overweight by the weigh haha) And the "I am thin and my health care would amount to next to nothing, but you are fat and I am paying in health care tax for your health care; meanwhile, your cart is full of Doritos, etc. ..." Well, I expect that to kick in. Smokers already receive community scorn , but I would expect that to increase as well.

[OH_Homeschooler]

 

Well, in defense to the homeless, maybe they really are just desperate.

 

Yes, and I feel bad for the homeless, but libraries are not homeless shelters. Therefore, using it as such is an abuse.

[I talk to the trees]

I don't use the library.

 

(I don't have a horse in this race; I'm just being silly - although I really DON'T use the library, lol)

 

We don't use the local library either, but there's a very good reason for that. Our local library is supported and run by the local school district. Let's just say that some of the librarians have been, well, less than kind to some of the homeschooling families.

[nmoira]

Well, in defense to the homeless, maybe they really are just desperate.

 

 

Some people in a hoity toity neighborhood here loudly objected to the installation of a Portland Loo a a nearby park with water fixture used by tons of kids during our 3 days of summer. The residents were worried homeless people might use it. Ok, but isn't that much better than the alternative?

[Murphy101]

Dang it woman. Don't go all wackado name changing on me. It's hard enough for me to keep people and names straight!

[SKL]

Speaking of homeless people . . . I got a chuckle the other day because I wear this big tan coat and faded jeans and no make-up or hairstyle, so I could definitely pass for homeless if I wanted to. I was at Wal-Mart and I bought a PayDay candy bar (since I don't eat chocolate). I told the checkout guy to keep the candy bar out of the bag since I was going to eat it. "This is my dinner," I said. The guy said, "that's ALL you have for dinner?" and I said, "hey, it's protein!" The guy then proceeded to advise me that there was a soup kitchen nearby! Sweet young man! :)

 

I have no problem with homeless people using the library, as long as they conduct themselves the way we all should conduct ourselves. Periodically I hear of problems like pedophiles stalking children. I don't really know the solution to that. But I think if you want to read a book or get on the internet, it should not matter whether you have a home address or not.

[clarkacademy]

 

Yeah, this is a good explanation.

 

I also agree with what was said about abuse. How many people abuse the library?

 

 

Oh, I abuse my library all right! I take what I want and when I am done I dump it in a bin like yesterdays used newspaper!! :laugh:

[LibraryLover]

 

 

ETA: I also think we think of libraries as being for the greater good, to educate and inform people, and they're for everyone, rich or poor. But I personally would rather someone buy fruits, veggies, and proteins via food stamps paid for by "my" tax dollars than someone play computer games and borrow movie-related twaddle paid for by "my" tax dollars.

 

 

Elf is not twaddle. Although it is overdue.

[LibraryLover]

So are my nephew's Power Ranger books, and the Star Wars Lego book.