I know virtual schools have been discussed before, but help me with some perspective?

[Ibbygirl]

I really don't get why anyone even cares what another family is doing. :confused: Live and let live.

[Halftime Hope]

In regards to the childbirth thing... on that I feel that we need to be supportive of birth that ends with a healthy child and mother. I have had three completely drug free *natural* births, two of which were at home. These came on the heels of three c-sections. All six births resulted in the safe birth of a healthy child and left me a healthy mom able to care for my children.

 

The point is...it's the *birth* that counts. :) My three c-section children are no less *born* or no less *human* than the three *natural* birth children. See my point?

 

Now, granted, there are all kinds of issues with all types of births, but that all becomes anecdotal because every person is different. I cannot judge whether someones choice was frivolous, or not. Why busy myself with that? I choose to believe that they made the best choice for them and their child.

 

Sometimes, we really want to make more of our personal choices than they are...just CHOICES. In doing so, we completely get the accent on the wrong syllable.

 

I understand your point, but when one has invested significant time and effort in the legislative fight to allow mothers more choice over their own childbirth experiences when they had none to start with, again, it rankles to see a current generation of young mothers allowing a complete re-definition of the term "natural childbirth" to mean something so un-natural.

 

The impliation then is that mothers now either don't know (most likely) or don't care. It means not only their loss, but also my daughters' and DILs' because they will be giving birth in a milieu in which thinks all intervention except c-section is "natural." They will have to seek out options that are even more marginalized than when I was having babies.

 

Can you guess what I was involved in in FL in the late 80s/early 90s? We did a lot of good work on behalf of mothers' rights to have birthing choices legally, not illegally, in FL.

[fairfarmhand]

I am sure she still feels she is homeschooling, since she makes the decisions of how much of the program to use, if another book would work better and/or to stay in the program and she works with the child, answers questions, etc.

 

would you be as much up in arms over a friend using a boxed curriculum like Calvert and following their scope and sequence? Or what about a friend going through a rough patch of illness and using the dvd-school from Abeka?

 

would you feel upset if a friend told you that you don't really homeschool since you outsource 2 or more classes?

I feel that quantifying who is a pure homeschooler or not hurts the movement.

 

disclaimer- I use a public charter school, not K12, but pick all my materials and scope/sequence and yeah, it stings to be labeled and uninvited from park days/groups/moms night out.

 

 

I had someone tell me this. I have 2 in the state virtual school and my high schooler is traditionally homeschooled. Let me tell you, that even thought K12 is holding my hand, it is STILL A TON OF WORK ON THE PARENT.

 

Of course they chose the curriculum. However, I still have to sit and teach, I still have to grade most of their papers, I still have to manage it all AND GET 6.5 FREAKING HOURS PER DAY done.

 

In fact, I've worked harder homeschooling my 2 middles in the virtual school than I EVER have with any of my kids. (this is the first year virtual schooling and I've been at it for 10 years)

 

So while some of the planning is off of your friend's shoulders, I guarantee that she still has a long hard day. Very little of our program is "filler."

 

You might be very surprised at how challenging these programs are to work with.

My older, non-schooling kid still has to "show progress" even though it takes her twice as long to do the work. Her days are very LONG.

 

My younger child whizzes through the material, but that is only if I can sit right beside her and guide her learning the whole time.

 

Please do not say what is on you mind to your friend. It will be very hurtful to her, when she is so excited about being a crucial part of her child's educational experience.

Edited September 1, 2012 by fairfarmhand

[momma2three]

If it's school at home, how is it not homeschooling?

[Wildiris]

I have an acquaintance who has enrolled the only child, a middle-schooler, in a state-provided virtual school. Yes, this is one of our state's public-school options. (If it matters, the state considers them public-schoolers.)

 

For the last month there have been posts all over the person's FB page stating that they are homeschooling and so on.

 

I'm having a ridiculously emotional reaction to this. I want to scream, "You are public-schooling at home! Do not call youself a homeschooler." I have said nothing.

 

I think the reason it annoys me is that I put so much more work into planning, teaching, and taking responsibility for assessing, grading, correcting, that it annoys me to have someone else call what they are doing homeschooling when it is not parent-led, not parent-provided, and requires so much less responsibililty and effort.

 

It also annoys me because although I have older students whom I have homeschooled from early on, I also will freely tell people that I outsource some of their subjects. While it's no longer all on my shoulders, I add the role of educational advocate and procurement specialist to the role of college/career counselor, and let me tell ya, that last one alone puts me right back into the "responsibility-on-my-shoulders" category.

 

Help me sort this out, please. And don't throw any tomatoes. I'm honestly trying to figure out why I'm so peeved and whether it's justified, not justified, or somewhere in between.

 

Thank you.

 

ETA: The only other person that I know who is using the state's public virtual school program is using it for a high schooler. In their family, they have homeschooled, private schooled, homeschooled again, and finally, with the last, virtual schooled for a couple of years. They do not call it homeschooling, they'll tell people, "J. 'virtual schools' with NameofProgram."

 

Why spend your precious time on this? Do these labels really matter? Everyone puts a lot of work into living including your friend. So to answer your question, no you are not justified in judging your friend. Remember, treat others the way you want to be treated.

 

 

To me it's still homeschooling. A different form than the one you chose, for sure, but homeschooling nonetheless. You still have the kid home with you all day, you still have to butt heads to make sure the work gets done, you still have to worry about the field trips and "socialization" issues, your whole life and approach to education have changed, etc. I consider unschoolers and relaxed homeschoolers to homeschooling too, and IMO, what your friend is doing is not much different.

 

:iagree:It is a matter of perception.

[Entropymama]

:grouphug::grouphug: for the OP

 

And in her defense, I had a friend who started homeschooling her boys with K12 a few years ago, and she got on my nerves. It wasn't that I thought she wasn't homeschooling, it's that we would get together and she would go on and on about how she now completely understood how hard homeschooling could be and how much work it was. I felt like she really didn't understand the hours and hours I spent choosing and planning out curriculum and doing the actual instruction of my kids.

[fairfarmhand]

First, I admitted that I felt my emotions about this were excessive. I asked for perspective. I do appreciate people's input on the topic, and I have noted that IRL I have chosen to keep my silence on this. I have put my acquaintance's feelings above making any kind of a statament on the topic.

 

Second, it is the family's expectation, stated publicly, that they are minimally involved. I should have spelled it out more clearlly when I stated that the parent at home intends to continue to work full time from home, but that is the least of the comments that have been made indicating a level of parental involvement different from what you and I expect.

 

For me, here the heart of the matter: some people using public virtual schools are taking a long-established term (homeschooling) and adding a definition that flies in the face of some of the possible reasons for independently homeschooling in the first place. You can see how that would make some of us who have lived by the long-accepted definition uncomfortable.

 

.

 

my oldest works pretty much independently and has ever since we started homeschooling. But she is the only one of my schooled kids not in K12. She is more independent than my K12'ers, but according to your feelings, she is the only one who should be able to claim as an official "homeschooler."

 

I don;t understand getting so worked up about it. Maybe I am missing something?

[magnificent_baby]

I said nothing and implied nothing of the sort--no where did I say that what I chose was better, superior, or the high road, any more than what anyone else is chosing to do. You are reading in your own judgements.

 

I know you didn't come out and say that, but that was the impression that I got.

 

It seems you feel she is taking credit for the label that you feel you have earned by all of your work, effort and responsibility. Though I don't use a virtual school, I cannot imagine that she sits back and lets her kids "school" themselves. I am certain there is work, effort and responsibility on her part as well. I don't think anyone should be keep score on who works harder than another, in order to use the term homeschooling.

 

My friends down the street are still parents, even though they work full time. It would be like me saying that they cannot claim that they are parents because I have put in so much more effort, responsibility and hard work by being a stay at home mom.

 

Unless there were some type of tax rebate or other legal issue that would make defining terminology relevant, I don't see how it affects you other than your pride.

 

I'm sorry if my response seem harsh, I don't intend it to be, but you asked for perspective.

[Tidbits of Learning]

From the American Heritage dictionary-

home-school tr.v. home-schooled, home-schooling, home-schools--to educate (a pupil, for example) at home rather than in an established school. --home'school'er n.

 

:auto:

[FloridaLisa]

Words hold meaning. I think perhaps the op is uncomfortable with exactly has happened to the word "homeschooling" and how broad the definition has become.

 

What the friend calls it may not matter much now, but I do think there is a need to ensure that those writing the statutes and applying the departmental regulations understand the difference between statutory homeschoolers and public virtual schoolers. There is a world of difference between the two under Florida law right now -- including graduation requirements, extracurricular involvement in schools and state scholarship eligibility.

 

Again, I'm glad families have the options and can choose. But I'm sure our home education lobbyist has spent many hours ensuring that homeschooling stays separate in the minds of lawmakers and regulators.

 

Lisa

[magnificent_baby]

What the friend calls it may not matter much now, but I do think there is a need to ensure that those writing the statutes and applying the departmental regulations understand the difference between statutory homeschoolers and public virtual schoolers. There is a world of difference between the two under Florida law right now -- including graduation requirements, extracurricular involvement in schools and state scholarship eligibility.

 

Again, I'm glad families have the options and can choose. But I'm sure our home education lobbyist has spent many hours ensuring that homeschooling stays separate in the minds of lawmakers and regulators.

 

Lisa

 

Re the bold: yes, absolutely for those purposes it should be clearly defined.

 

However, that is not why the OP is so annoyed.

[Frances]

I once too had an internal emotional response to the use of the term homeschooling. I know someone who is quite vocally anti-homeschooling for many of the common reasons (how can a parent possibly do the job of a certified teacher; homeschooling parents are overprotective and their children will never know how to deal with real life; etc.), but when she works on math, reading, writing, etc. with her children during the summer, she calls it homeschooling.

 

 

Homeschooling is a word that those who follow the "traditonal" method of doing school at home desire to keep to define themselves.

 

 

I think this is only true for some "traditional" homeschoolers. I think I would have fit the definition of a "traditional" homeschooler when my son was in grades K-6, as I prepared and taught all subjects and only outsourced extracurriculars.

 

However, I fully support every family using whatever combination of methods and sources necessary to meet the educational needs of each of their children. And to me that extends to being fine with each family labeling their educational method(s) in whatever way they want.

 

And I disagree with the arguments of the HSLD and others that in order to keep our homeschooling freedoms we need to keep it "pure". I think the more we all support a wide variety of educational choices, the more likely we are to keep our right to choose. As educational choices have expanded in my state, so has acceptance of different choices, including homeschooling.

[shinyhappypeople]

OP,

 

:grouphug: Sorry you've gotten jumped on a bit in this thread.

 

I think you might have an easier time if you reframed your view of what "home schooling" is.

 

Definitions DO change, and the definition of what constitutes home schooling has broadened in the last 20 years. It's okay to feel uncomfortable, disagree or even feel sad about the change. It's definitely okay to prefer your approach to home schooling and tell people why you think it's best. But, I think you'll feel more content if you come to a point of accepting that the definition of home schooling has changed and move on emotionally.

 

It might be helpful to view home schooling as a mosaic, lots of beautiful pieces (options) making up one magnificent image of what it means to learn at home (home school) in the US today.

 

You could also choose to think of the US educational system as being on a spectrum, with kids in boarding schools at one end and radically unschooled kids in New Jersey on the other end. :001_smile:

 

When you look at it like that you'll see that traditional home schools and virtual/charter home schools are right next to each other on the spectrum rubbing elbows, practically sitting on each others laps. They have way more in common than they do differences, and it's reasonable to refer to both situations as home schooling because they're both schooling at home.

 

I hope this helps some. :grouphug:

[Joyofsixreboot]

I have kids in almost every permutation of school-homeschool, virtual PS, brick and mortar PS and church pre-school. I hate the whole " us" and " them" thing.

[elegantlion]

Even those of us that painstakingly custom plan every subject, we still have a choice. I'm in my 9th year of homeschooling and the plethora of material out and being published astounds me. I could easily pick a planned curricula. I make it harder on myself by choosing everything individually. That's MY choice. Even if you order something pre-planned it's not just as simple as opening up to the next page and never doing any planning.

 

If I used K12, the onus would still be on me for his education. K12 or a VA is a tool. Yes, I see the need to legally define them differently, yet I see it as a evolution of homeschooling and not as a threat to homeschooling.

 

The definition of homeschooling is changing and if more parents can gain educational control by using a VA, then more power to them. I would rather see someone turn to a VA and get their materials for free than have to put the kids in a B&M school when they'd rather not. It doesn't sound like the VA is less work anyway.

[Crimson Wife]

I know someone who is quite vocally anti-homeschooling for many of the common reasons (how can a parent possibly do the job of a certified teacher; homeschooling parents are overprotective and their children will never know how to deal with real life; etc.), but when she works on math, reading, writing, etc. with her children during the summer, she calls it homeschooling.

 

This is a different situation because her children are enrolled full-time in a classroom-based school. "Afterschooling" is not the same thing as homeschooling because it is merely supplementing the instruction that the child is receiving 30 hours per week, 9 months per year in a classroom. The bulk of the child's education is being done in the classroom overseen by a teacher other than the parent.

 

I don't consider my youngest child to be homeschooled because she is a full-time student in a brick & mortar special ed school. I do supplement the education she is receiving there, and hope to bring her home full-time when she's older, but as of now she's not being homeschooled.

[BlueTaelon]

To me it's still homeschooling. A different form than the one you chose, for sure, but homeschooling nonetheless. You still have the kid home with you all day, you still have to butt heads to make sure the work gets done, you still have to worry about the field trips and "socialization" issues, your whole life and approach to education have changed, etc. I consider unschoolers and relaxed homeschoolers to homeschooling too, and IMO, what your friend is doing is not much different.

 

 

:iagree: I have used K12 Independent and as a VA and I can tell you its just as much work as "regular" HS'ing. K12 is great for people like me who are organizationally impaired or are busy (did I mention I'm a single mom who's going to work full time and will still be HS'ing?). I can't put a lesson plan together to save my life but K12 has been wonderful as a spine to keep us on track, I supplement the heck out of it but it works wonderfully for us and has for years. My children are educated at home which to me means we are homeschoolers, it doesn't matter how we do it, the fact that it happens at home rather then in a class with 30 other kids makes the difference.

 

That said, so far this year I'm using a mix of duel enrollment from a K12 VA, K12 Independent (I really don't want to deal with class connects and study island!) and other stuff I pay for out of pocket. Should I not say I'm a homeschooler simply because I do use a VA for some classes?

[Carol in Cal.]

It sounds like the woman in question is showing that newbie really annoying 'I am brilliant because I just figured out this thing (that every experienced person has known for, oh, decades or centuries) and look at Meeeeeeeeee!' thing. It also sounds like she is going to give homeschoolers a bad name, by making this seem so easy that anyone should be able to do it while working fulltime, and by keeping her kid in a small dark room at home with a computer. Basically this person is as close to being a public schooler as you can be without actually attending every day, and is making large, presumptuous claims to be the exact norm. This would bug me, too.

 

Just like it bugs me when someone says that they unschool but actually doesn't do anything. Or when someone says that the only reason to homeschool is to protect their children from having to learn to read before age 12 (really! Someone told me this!). Or when someone says that they are worried that their child won't stay Christian unless every single person they ever see is the exact same kind of Christian that they are. Or likewise for staying natural, or organic, or survivalist, or whatever.

 

It's not just about K12 or public charter use or boxed vs. customized curricula. It's about the whole big package, and the spouting off about it. At least that's how it looks to me.

[Carol in Cal.]

:iagree: I have used K12 Independent and as a VA and I can tell you its just as much work as "regular" HS'ing. K12 is great for people like me who are organizationally impaired or are busy (did I mention I'm a single mom who's going to work full time and will still be HS'ing?).

 

You know, it may be as much work, but it is a different kind of work. It's different to be working for an outside administrator than it is to be working for your own plan. The stress is significant either way, and so is the responsibility. But you're not taking the 'I am solely responsible for whether my kid succeeds or fails or whether or not he is educated' stress on. However, you are adding in the 'I have to meet these outside deadlines and requirements' stress. I'm glad that you found something that works for you and your family--good for you! I think that it is a perfectly valid choice, and I also think that families who do this should be able to join homeschooling groups (Don't get me started on that. It won't be pretty) but if I were doing it I wouldn't be quick to say that I was a homeschooler. I would probably say that we school at home using K12.

[BlueTaelon]

You know, it may be as much work, but it is a different kind of work. It's different to be working for an outside administrator than it is to be working for your own plan. The stress is significant either way, and so is the responsibility. But you're not taking the 'I am solely responsible for whether my kid succeeds or fails or whether or not he is educated' stress on. However, you are adding in the 'I have to meet these outside deadlines and requirements' stress. I'm glad that you found something that works for you and your family--good for you! I think that it is a perfectly valid choice, and I also think that families who do this should be able to join homeschooling groups (Don't get me started on that. It won't be pretty) but if I were doing it I wouldn't be quick to say that I was a homeschooler. I would probably say that we school at home using K12.

 

 

umm, how am I not taking on that stress? We have no teacher involvement, for the VA K12 classes the only thing I have to do is show progress which is slower then the rate we move at and turn in 1 work sample per quarter, don't even have to do state testing. I was paying for these same exact courses as an independent user, the only thing different really is its not coming out of my bank every month. I'm still responsible for 100% of the educating. The VA is not covering core classes, I AM. Should I feel like less of a homeschooler because I use a VA to pay for Science, History and Art History? Snobbery at its finest if you ask me. Its no different then outsourcing and using Lukeion or Bravewriter. It saving me about $1k year that I can put on other things which is a lot of money for us.

[Lisbeth]

There are legal ramifications that make the difference between homeschooling and public-school-at-home. Practically, although the children are at home and so you're homeschooling, legally, the children are public students, not homeschooled (or private schooled, depending on your state).

 

This is a conversation that has been going on for well over 25 years in California. It is almost impossible to give a complete background on why it's important to know the difference to folks who haven't been involved in it for those 25 years.

 

This! Going back to reading.

[Lisbeth]

You have a point.

 

So then, I really have to ask, who is in charge. Is it the parents, or the school? Clearly the school thinks they are, and from their perspective the parents are agreeing to conform to the school's rules. And the school is the one saying that they issue (guarantee) the student's diploma. Interesting conceptual rub, isn't it?

 

For me, it's my homeschool if I call the shots. It's public-school-at-home if I have to conform to their calling the shots--kind of stinks, since you are saying that all the effort is on me, the parent, either way. The schools certainly view it as public school.

 

This is so true.

This disussion reminds of the daycare parents switching to the word preschool. Then those who used real preschools had people thinking we meant daycare. It caused confusion. It also messed up the word preschool. I think if you choose a path, own it. Don'ti hide in a more benevolent word. And honestly, I am sure that will cause annoyance, but homeschooler sounds so much better than public schooler at home.

[Tarreymere]

Do people actually DO this? :blink:

 

The question was 'exclude cyber school families from park days, ect'.

 

Yes. When I started my local homeschooling group I made it a point to state very very clearly that cyberschool families were included in our definition of homeschoolers, because in my area the existing homeschool groups are very explicit in excluding cyberschoolers.

 

I do consider cyberschool families to be homeschoolers. I've had my own kids in and out of them. Right now my dd8 is enrolled in one, but we do not use their math and LA materials as we prefer Saxon and Hake. We used our own choices for everything over the summer as we school year round. Now dd8 merely fills out and turns in their tests while we use our own materials for math and LA, and we are also using Latin Prep. For ds5 his cyber enrollment is augmented by AAR, ETC, and MCP K math.

 

Don't make the mistake of thinking that cyberschool families merely turn on the computer and plug in the child. It really is more similar to homeschooling than not, especially when homeschooling with open-and-go materials. I've done both.

Edited September 2, 2012 by Rainefox

[Scrub Jay]

 

For the last month there have been posts all over the person's FB page stating that they are homeschooling and so on.

 

I'm having a ridiculously emotional reaction to this. I want to scream, "You are public-schooling at home! Do not call youself a homeschooler." I have said nothing.

 

I think the reason it annoys me is that I put so much more work into planning, teaching, and taking responsibility for assessing, grading, correcting, that it annoys me to have someone else call what they are doing homeschooling when it is not parent-led, not parent-provided, and requires so much less responsibililty and effort.

"

 

We use a virtual charter school but I do 100% of the planning and curriculum choices. I have full control with all of that (we wouldn't use them if I didn't, honestly). We use them because we get some $ for classes and since I've been paying taxes in this city for 15 years I figured I might as well use some for education. ;)

 

So, anyway, my point is that there is a huge variety of virtual schools out there. And, honestly, I don't really see the difference between a K12 type of situation vs. picking a curriculum that covers all subjects and you follow to a T. Plenty of homeschoolers do that as well.

[Tidbits of Learning]

 

[Mrs Mungo]

Meh, this again, really?

 

Do I see a reason to be concerned how the state sees it? Yeah, I guess.

 

Does it matter to *me* or should it matter to a homeschool group or co-op? Not IMO.

 

As far as the reasoning for the OP's upset? It would be the same as being mad at people for using ACE or Abeka. I don't get the point. I don't want to do Abeka or ACE. So, I spend hours planning. That is on me, and it has nothing to do with anyone else. Homeschooling is not a competitive sport.

[ereks mom]

OP, I understand your position, and I know people who use the state's cyber school yet consider themselves homeschoolers. However, our local homeschool association excludes the cyber schoolers from membership in the homeschool group. As to who is right, well, I'm just not sure. The only thing I can come up with is that, legally speaking, whether one is actually a homeschooler is about more than simply where the schooling takes place, but also has to do with who plans the curriculum.

[Mrs Mungo]

The only thing I can come up with is that, legally speaking, whether one is actually a homeschooler is about more than simply where the schooling takes place, but also has to do with who plans the curriculum.

 

But, someone using K12 on their own and someone using K12 through a virtual public school are using the same planned-out curriculum, right?

[Scrub Jay]

But, someone using K12 on their own and someone using K12 through a virtual public school are using the same planned-out curriculum, right?

 

Exactly. Not sure how this is different from using Oak Meadow or something like that. And the parent is choosing the virtual charter school so if it happens to be one that offers one curriculum then the parent is obviously choosing the curriculum as well.

 

Not everyone is eclectic and uses a variety of sources, etc for homeschooling. Like we choose to do - while also using a virtual charter school. I don't thumb my nose at homeschoolers who do school in a box. Why would I?

[phathui5]

We're going through a public charter school this year.

 

I still do all the "planning, teaching, and taking responsibility for assessing, grading, correcting..." but the school buys the curriculum (that I pick out) for us and we have to check in with a teacher periodically.

 

This is our first year with the charter but the only change in our homeschooling that I can forsee is a much bigger budget (thanks government!).

[Frances]

However, our local homeschool association excludes the cyber schoolers from membership in the homeschool group. As to who is right, well, I'm just not sure. The only thing I can come up with is that, legally speaking, whether one is actually a homeschooler is about more than simply where the schooling takes place, but also has to do with who plans the curriculum.

 

I'm very confused by this. What is the purpose of excluding someone who believes they are homeschooling from a homeschool group?

[laundrycrisis]

I'm very confused by this. What is the purpose of excluding someone who believes they are homeschooling from a homeschool group?

 

IMO the only benefit to excluding someone for homeschooling the "wrong" way from an otherwise inclusive social group (the group is not defined as a group for a specific approach, ie unschooling, CM etc, and it's not some kind of association to help independent homeschoolers meet legal requirements which would not apply to VSers) is to pump up the egos of the people who made the decision to do that. It is terribly snobby and unkind at a deep level. It hurts people and benefits no one. They may have some excuse that virtual schoolers somehow contaminate the nature of the group or discourage others from homeschooling independently.....but that is just a steaming load. People can make up their own minds about how to homeschool and find the encouragement they are looking for. It is not necessary to worry about anyone being "dragged down" by how anyone else homeschools and use that as a basis to exclude people. It's just egotistical and mean.

 

Many people start out cyberschooling and then make the leap to homeschooling independently. They get there by spending time with and getting information and encouragement from independent homeschoolers. If they are excluded, this won't happen. And they may very well also get an impression that other homeschoolers are sometimes smug and unkind people. They would be partially correct. The exclusion would be the proof.

 

Some people start out wanting to plan everything and maybe even write their own materials, then a few years down the road are ready for someone else to do the planning and provide the accountability. I am headed that way myself. If I do make that change, I will not be less of a homeschooler. I will still be the one the boy spends his days with. I will still be prodding him along and explaining whatever he needs help with.

 

Although I am not virtual-schooling, I would not participate in any group that excluded those who are. To participate would go against the grain of my values.

[DianeW88]

The reasons I've heard in the past for exclusion of public school sponsored/chartered/K-12 through your school district, schoolers from homeschool groups (and I don't belong to any homeschool group) is based on whether or not you are required to report to the public schools in some way. If the public school is paying for, monitoring, recording or in any other way supervising your child's education.....then you are not considered a homeschooler.

 

So, in a nutshell, if the public school considers you one of their students, then the homeschool group does as well.

 

If you use any other kind of virtual academy or Calvert, you are still not considered a homeschooler by the public school district, so that would be different.

[Mrs Mungo]

The reasons I've heard in the past for exclusion of public school sponsored/chartered/K-12 through your school district, schoolers from homeschool groups (and I don't belong to any homeschool group) is based on whether or not you are required to report to the public schools in some way. If the public school is paying for, monitoring, recording or in any other way supervising your child's education.....then you are not considered a homeschooler.

 

So, in a nutshell, if the public school considers you one of their students, then the homeschool group does as well.

 

If you use any other kind of virtual academy or Calvert, you are still not considered a homeschooler by the public school district, so that would be different.

 

I understand it is different as far as reporting and such. I know they are considered different by the state, and I agree that they should be. Money from the state generally = more reporting. I know it already has led to more reporting in WA state and places like that.

 

What I do not understand is this: if someone educating their kids at home, then what do you believe the benefit to be of not allowing them to join in on a field trip?

[ktgrok]

I understand it is different as far as reporting and such. I know they are considered different by the state, and I agree that they should be. Money from the state generally = more reporting. I know it already has led to more reporting in WA state and places like that.

 

What I do not understand is this: if someone educating their kids at home, then what do you believe the benefit to be of not allowing them to join in on a field trip?

 

exactly. Why does that matter for field trips, group outings, etc? I run a support group and co-op, and we have everything from unschoolers to virtual schoolers. Hasn't made a bit of difference in how the kids interact, the fun they have together, etc. I can't imagine telling those that use the virtual school that they can't come hang out with us as they are not "real" homeschoolers. I can't even see a point to it, at all.

 

What really makes the whole thing silly is two kids could take the EXACT same courses from the virtual school, and depending on how they report one could be technically a public school student, and one would be technically a homeschool student utilizing the virtual school classes as such. But they'd be doing the same thing. I can't see telling people they can't hang out with us just based on which box they check on a form.

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

Meh, this again, really?

 

Do I see a reason to be concerned how the state sees it? Yeah, I guess.

 

Does it matter to *me* or should it matter to a homeschool group or co-op? Not IMO.

 

As far as the reasoning for the OP's upset? It would be the same as being mad at people for using ACE or Abeka. I don't get the point. I don't want to do Abeka or ACE. So, I spend hours planning. That is on me, and it has nothing to do with anyone else. Homeschooling is not a competitive sport.

 

:iagree:We did use a public cyber school in the past and I did do about 99.9% of the instruction:) Last year we used Calvert privately as homeschoolers as well as a mix of other things:)

[TXMomof4]

Don't many families use K12 independently, too? Those that do are still considered homeschoolers...so what's the difference? Do you feel the same if someone uses K12 indepentently? I don't mean to be snooty....I just wanted to show how I think about.

 

.

 

:iagree: In fact, if we are in an area where K12 isn't offered publicly or if the requirements attached to the public charter are over the top, I will choose their history, LA, and science to use as an independant hser. I like it, it is thorough, it is well laid out and it fills in the places that I know I am not good at. Blast away - hsing isn't about reinventing the wheel last I checked. It's about using what works and the k12 curr. works for parts of our family.

[Dmmetler]

We don't exclude in our group, but what we've seen is that the virtual academy restrictions really make it hard for the families to participate, and if we try to bend to their schedules, it ends up pushing our activities into times that are less helpful for homeschoolers who aren't tied to those class connects and so on. Which, in turn, leads to questions on "Why don't you ever schedule activities when we can do them", which, in many cases, requires that we schedule field trips and park days in the time AROUND the PS schedule since the VA families have blocks of time they have to be online during the PS day, and since no two classes/grades seem to be the same thing. Most families, even if they outsource a class or two, might have one day a week that's not open for field trips (I missed many last year because I'd scheduled my DD's piano lesson on Fridays, and that turned out to be the day most people wanted to do field trips since they usually schooled lightly on Fridays anyway)-but they don't end up missing almost everything all year. The VA families, though, are stuck. And while some recognize it's part of the curriculum decision they made, others react with hostility and feel deliberately excluded. It's soley the VA's requirements that run into this-we have a couple of families who use K12 independently, and they don't have any problems making it work and participating in what they want to participate in.

 

Ultimately, it comes down to "Who does your group serve"-and realistically, it doesn't work for our local group to schedule based on the families who choose to use the VA.

 

 

If we were in a state where being in a virtual academy or Alternative learning community or whatever meant simply getting materials and doing them on your own schedule, reporting via phone once a week, and didn't have such restrictions, it wouldn't be an issue-but it's proved to be so far, and this year is much worse than last year was.

 

We've also run into a few cases where a child is considered a public school student by outside agencies, and therefore cannot be allowed to represent our homeschool group because eligibility is at the "School" level, and legally their school isn't "homeschooled" it's "TNVA". It's not easy to have to tell a parent and child that they're not homeschooled enough :( and have to be the meany-which then leads to the impression that we're not welcoming to VA families. I can see, honestly, having gone through a couple of these type events in the last two years, why some homeschool groups choose to avoid this entirely, because accidentally entering a child who is eligible through a school can disqualify your entire group, and I could see it being SO easy to do so in a group that doesn't even ask parents about who they're registered with when they join the group.

[TXMomof4]

The reasons I've heard in the past for exclusion of public school sponsored/chartered/K-12 through your school district, schoolers from homeschool groups (and I don't belong to any homeschool group) is based on whether or not you are required to report to the public schools in some way. If the public school is paying for, monitoring, recording or in any other way supervising your child's education.....then you are not considered a homeschooler.

 

So, in a nutshell, if the public school considers you one of their students, then the homeschool group does as well.

 

If you use any other kind of virtual academy or Calvert, you are still not considered a homeschooler by the public school district, so that would be different.

 

So, in PA where every hs child is supposedly monitored by the state, are none of them 'really' hsers? It is the school district that monitors students there, right? How about in states where you have to submit your student's test scores yearly? Or portfolios? Is that not being monitored by the state?

 

This is subject that really makes me scratch my head. I 'traditionally' hs two of mine, and two are using a public charter. I am a hser and have been from the beginning.

[higginszoo]

Do people actually DO this? :blink:

 

With us, it wasn't only that we went with boxed curriculum (Calvert, Seton), but also that dh was unemployed, so I went to work and left him to be the main teaching parent. He and the dc were asked not to come back to park day because homeschooling was a mom's job, and we weren't REALLY homeschooling anyway.

[elegantlion]

With us, it wasn't only that we went with boxed curriculum (Calvert, Seton), but also that dh was unemployed, so I went to work and left him to be the main teaching parent. He and the dc were asked not to come back to park day because homeschooling was a mom's job, and we weren't REALLY homeschooling anyway.

 

:svengo: :001_huh::confused: I'm sorry, how awful! :grouphug:

[Impish]

I haven't read all the responses, but...

 

Geez.

 

the kid is being educated at home. Therefore, the kid is being homeschooled.

 

I don't get the purpose of drawing lines, defining what is a 'real' hs'er and what isn't.

 

It smacks of a 'holier than thou' attitude. A way to look down on others...and for what purpose? Does it cost you a nickel that they call themselves hs'ers? Really? How does another family's choice invalidate your own?

 

I just truly don't get it. I really don't understand why it matters at all.

[Carol in Cal.]

Snobbery at its finest if you ask me. Its no different then outsourcing and using Lukeion or Bravewriter. It saving me about $1k year that I can put on other things which is a lot of money for us.

 

You know, I posted kindly and supportively to you and did not tell you what to do or what to say, just what I would say myself, and you turned around and called me a snob. That's pretty rude and over the top, and not even remotely accurate.

[laundrycrisis]

With us, it wasn't only that we went with boxed curriculum (Calvert, Seton), but also that dh was unemployed, so I went to work and left him to be the main teaching parent. He and the dc were asked not to come back to park day because homeschooling was a mom's job, and we weren't REALLY homeschooling anyway.

 

:001_huh: Those are just mean people. I'm sorry you were treated that way. Your DH and kids would be 100% welcome in our group.

[Tarreymere]

Our VA doesn't have any scheduled times for my kids to be online during the day, and we haven't ever even heard of any 'events' that exist within driving distance that involve any kind of special eligiblity to enter. I'm sure that if such things were a concern in my area my own group would simply schedule the darn trip and if your family could make it (whatever you had on your schedule), great. If not, great, and maybe we'll see you next time. No big deal. If there were such an event coming up that only allowed a certain kind of homechooler and we wanted to put together a team, we would simply just state the darn eligibility requirements when we announced it. I just do not get refusing to allow people to join your group in the first place because it 'might' be a problem down the road.

 

The existing homeschool groups in my area have absolutely no reason to exclude families who use cyber charters, but those families are pointedly excluded. The same groups that exclude cyberschool families also insist on only permitting Christian families who have beliefs that are congruent with their own to join. This isn't about homeschooling support, this is about creating a little world of like-minded people to socialize with.

 

We would never fit in to a group like that no matter what curriculum we used or who we did or did not report to. And we wouldn't want to.

[DianeW88]

I understand it is different as far as reporting and such. I know they are considered different by the state, and I agree that they should be. Money from the state generally = more reporting. I know it already has led to more reporting in WA state and places like that.

 

What I do not understand is this: if someone educating their kids at home, then what do you believe the benefit to be of not allowing them to join in on a field trip?

 

 

Oh, I have no problem with it at all!! The more the merrier, especially with field trips. My problem is with homeschool groups/cliques in general, but that's a whole 'nother thread. :D

 

I was only trying to explain the rationale behind the exclusion...at least for the groups I've been acquainted with here and in the Denver area.

 

I do have to say that I belonged to a homeschool group for exactly four months (the one I was allowed into, that "statement of faith" thing kept me out of several others...you know, Mormons need not apply ;)), but the internal politics and the gossip/backbiting had me fleeing in a hurry. Not to mention, I didn't really feel we accomplished much and it was taking time away from my school day. So, homeschool groups aren't really my thing anyway. But if I had one....everyone would be welcome!!! :D

[Mrs Mungo]

We don't exclude in our group, but what we've seen is that the virtual academy restrictions really make it hard for the families to participate, and if we try to bend to their schedules, it ends up pushing our activities into times that are less helpful for homeschoolers who aren't tied to those class connects and so on. Which, in turn, leads to questions on "Why don't you ever schedule activities when we can do them", which, in many cases, requires that we schedule field trips and park days in the time AROUND the PS schedule since the VA families have blocks of time they have to be online during the PS day, and since no two classes/grades seem to be the same thing. <snip>

Ultimately, it comes down to "Who does your group serve"-and realistically, it doesn't work for our local group to schedule based on the families who choose to use the VA.

 

I understand that it is not possible to accommodate everyone with field trips. And there will always be people who complain. I belong to a group that has a Christmas Party the week before Christmas so that nobody misses anything important. But, every year we have parents who ask us to move it because they are leaving town and don't want to miss the party. Every year we tell them that it is their choice to leave town or not. I would have no problem setting the field trips that are convenient for most of the parents and playing the heavy with the other parents. I would suggest that the others set up field trips and sign-ups according to their own schedules.

 

We've also run into a few cases where a child is considered a public school student by outside agencies, and therefore cannot be allowed to represent our homeschool group because eligibility is at the "School" level, and legally their school isn't "homeschooled" it's "TNVA".

 

But, that is an issue with those agencies, not your group. Making the rules for a particular event clear could potentially help with that. "Spelling Bee contestants must be homeschoolers as defined by the state. Virtual public school students must register through their school. We must follow these guidelines to be in accordance with state Spelling Bee rules."

[Mrs Mungo]

Oh, I have no problem with it at all!! The more the merrier, especially with field trips. My problem is with homeschool groups/cliques in general, but that's a whole 'nother thread. :D

 

Sorry, Diane. I was only using your post as a jumping off point. I meant it as a general you. :) I understood what you were saying.

[Crimson Wife]

I'm very confused by this. What is the purpose of excluding someone who believes they are homeschooling from a homeschool group?

 

What is the purpose of excluding members of certain denominations from allegedly "non-denominational Christian" groups? I am not eligible to join the local "non-denominational Christian" support group because they purposely word their SOF to exclude my denomination. Once they included language in their SOF beyond what is in the Nicene Creed, they are redefining "Christian" in a purposefully exclusionary way :glare:

[Supertechmom]

We don't exclude in our group, but what we've seen is that the virtual academy restrictions really make it hard for the families to participate, and if we try to bend to their schedules, it ends up pushing our activities into times that are less helpful for homeschoolers who aren't tied to those class connects and so on. Which, in turn, leads to questions on "Why don't you ever schedule activities when we can do them", which, in many cases, requires that we schedule field trips and park days in the time AROUND the PS schedule since the VA families have blocks of time they have to be online during the PS day, and since no two classes/grades seem to be the same thing. Most families, even if they outsource a class or two, might have one day a week that's not open for field trips (I missed many last year because I'd scheduled my DD's piano lesson on Fridays, and that turned out to be the day most people wanted to do field trips since they usually schooled lightly on Fridays anyway)-but they don't end up missing almost everything all year. The VA families, though, are stuck. And while some recognize it's part of the curriculum decision they made, others react with hostility and feel deliberately excluded. It's soley the VA's requirements that run into this-we have a couple of families who use K12 independently, and they don't have any problems making it work and participating in what they want to participate in.

 

Ultimately, it comes down to "Who does your group serve"-and realistically, it doesn't work for our local group to schedule based on the families who choose to use the VA.

 

 

If we were in a state where being in a virtual academy or Alternative learning community or whatever meant simply getting materials and doing them on your own schedule, reporting via phone once a week, and didn't have such restrictions, it wouldn't be an issue-but it's proved to be so far, and this year is much worse than last year was.

 

We've also run into a few cases where a child is considered a public school student by outside agencies, and therefore cannot be allowed to represent our homeschool group because eligibility is at the "School" level, and legally their school isn't "homeschooled" it's "TNVA". It's not easy to have to tell a parent and child that they're not homeschooled enough :( and have to be the meany-which then leads to the impression that we're not welcoming to VA families. I can see, honestly, having gone through a couple of these type events in the last two years, why some homeschool groups choose to avoid this entirely, because accidentally entering a child who is eligible through a school can disqualify your entire group, and I could see it being SO easy to do so in a group that doesn't even ask parents about who they're registered with when they join the group.

 

That's the problem I have run into. Being in a state that defines homeschooling and has a legal definition of one and different ways to do that AND a virtual school that is not a public school AND a host of online charter schools that are public school in which at least in the upper years requires no more involvement for the parent than any well meaning public school b&m parent, it is a dang mess. The mixed groups are always running into issues with scheduling. It gets frustrating mostly because the parents are down right nasty about it."well my child has to be in school during that time, can't you change it to afterschool time. I don't Understand why you can't accommodate me? ". And they get really offended and put out tons of posts about how horrible it is to belong to a group that doesn't work with them and are excluding their children. No,I'm just trying to schedule a time that doesn't put me in crowds of people or rush hour traffic. That's why I homeschool. I like to schedule my field trips after the public school morning visits and before the after school visits. Why does that make me the bad guy?? It is less stress for me to know my olds can see the exhibits, take as long as they want without losing my toddler.

 

It does sound like virtual school is very different elsewhere or different in the early years.

 

I understand that it is not possible to accommodate everyone with field trips. And there will always be people who complain. I belong to a group that has a Christmas Party the week before Christmas so that nobody misses anything important. But, every year we have parents who ask us to move it because they are leaving town and don't want to miss the party. Every year we tell them that it is their choice to leave town or not. I would have no problem setting the field trips that are convenient for most of the parents and playing the heavy with the other parents. I would suggest that the others set up field trips and sign-ups according to their own schedules.

 

 

 

But, that is an issue with those agencies, not your group. Making the rules for a particular event clear could potentially help with that. "Spelling Bee contestants must be homeschoolers as defined by the state. Virtual public school students must register through their school. We must follow these guidelines to be in accordance with state Spelling Bee rules."

 

 

But again,here is the problem. So far that hasn't been enough. It is not good enough. I set up a couple of homeschool only competition team meets to develop a team for some science/math stuff. I also had some that the legal labels didn't matter. So in my eyes I was trying to provide and get going two teams (different things one was science and one was robotics) that would allow everyone's kids to be involved somehow in something. I finally said @&8$ it. And dropped it all. The fuss was more than I wanted to deal with. It eventually wound up with the online school group that could not compete with the homeschool team insisting that I should set up two teams and follow both through competition. HMM??? I gave all the info and said I would more than glad to help walk you through the process and you Can coach one, I'll coach the other and we can cheer each other on.not good enough. Lots of bad feelings over that one. Cause I was being so freaking hard core and mean not to coach everybody just because of what system they used. Uhm, no.. The competition declared that and my old self declared I couldn't do two high school teams and a middle school team for my younger and homeschool a first grader and chase a baby. Sorry I'm not supermom! No amount of explaining, showing the rules, helped. All I heard was the whine of why I was being mean to their kids by not coaching a team they could participate in. And the other team that they could participate in? Not interested in it.

 

I just gave up.

 

It has just been a mess and I fully understand any group that is trying to do educational things not allowing those that are legally public schools.

 

I also don't understand groups that are just a social outlet type group banning them if we just talking about some parties and playdates.

 

But at least in my state , it has been a very rough start for the support groups when online public schools came out. It is getting better but still lots of hurt feelings over why someone would post a meeting about a competition team that is only open to kids who school under this particular state law. There just is no good way to post that if the people on the receiving end are going to be easily upset. So now I never post.