LONG:End of a co-op and a friendship

[TammyS]

Ok, it's long, it's complicated, so if you're easily bored...I would abandon it now. I bring it here for insight, because you all wouldn't know the players, so I can talk about it to nuetral people without gossiping.

 

Me and three other friends started a little co-op for our kids. The friends were myself, T, J, and R. We had a lady from out church (K), a scientist by trade, offer to come and teach a physics class. Because the kids ranged in ages from 12-17 in that class she decided to use the Apologia Physical Science book. This class was to last for two hours.

 

Meanwhile, J would teach the three youngest boys (10 year olds all with slight developmental delays), 1 hour each of science and 1 hour of social studies. J did all the planning and provided all of the materials. Because the three boys had delays, most activities were hands on, very little seat work (paper mache, map making, painting, building, etc).

 

So the first two hours (physics for the teens, social studies/science for the little boys) we can call session 1.

 

Session two, the little boys got to play under T and R's supervision, while J taught math (basically pre-algebra) to the teens. At the beginning of the year, we had another lady from our church (who had been a math teacher) come and give the kids a math test so that she could assess their readiness for algebra. Basically, she said only two of the kids were ready for algebra. So J was teaching pre-algebra in the hopes of getting them ready for algebra, so the teacher would come back in the following fall (this coming September) as she said she really didn't want to teach anything under algebra.

 

I have a toddler, so I was really just dropping off my teenager. R, who had six kids (4 teenagers and 2 young boys), was not teaching, but would hang out during the day. T had a 12 year old and also did not teach, but did hang out during the day, chatting with R.

 

Before I go further, I should say that we were all really good friends. J, T, and I had been friends for about 10 years. R had also been friends with all of us for 5 years. For a long time we used to meet weekly to discuss spiritual books we were reading. These were also serious Christian women.

 

Over the course of the year, there were some things (as expected) that different people weren't happy with.

 

Me: The science teacher was late...every.single.class. Sometimes 1/2 hr, routinely 15 minutes. She also was almost never prepared to do the experiments (which was really the only reason I had signed my son up for this, because I don't generally like co-ops because of llama drama). Almost none of them worked because she didn't have the stuff, or the right stuff, etc. Also, the pace was glacial. From Oct to May they got through 4 units (Apologia is set up for 1 unit taking two weeks). I wanted to talk to the science teacher and find out if we could up the pace and what she needed from us to make that work. I wasn't able to because T thought it was the height of rude and mean to question someone who was teaching our children for free. I disagreed, because I believe when you say you are going to do something, you do and you do it right. But nothing got done.

 

T: Basically said she was thrilled with everything, LOVED the science teacher, and wanted her son (12) exposed to her because she such a good Christian. In fairness, I think her son was probably out of his depth in that group of kids, because he was also working way below grade level (something about "he can only do 1 thing per day", but I never understood why that was).

 

J: Was not happy about the science pace, but willing to tolerate it, because her two teens were in that and her young son was in with the little boys. She was the one who organized this co-op so that she would have some accountability to get her kids to get their work done.

 

R: Had a number of complaints, but they often didn't make sense and this is basically what began the problems. She would get mad because J was sometimes late (R, like myself, is very punctual), but not because K or T were late (T is her BFF) - even though they were always late and always later than J. She would get mad repeatedly about small things way out of proportion (once she asked the 12 year old boy to move a table, and he got that "stupid boy...I can't remember what a table is" look, and she got really mad, was crying, and walked out of the building...but the kid was clearly not being defiant, he was being stupid/12), but they she would not talk about them. If you asked her about her upset, she would just respond, "it's all good!!" and refuse to talk about it more. This started small but slowly, slowly escalated until around Christmas. At that point she told me all of the things (I thought) that she was mad about. People were late, she didn't know what her kids' homework was for the pre-algebra class, she was always the first one there to set-up and clean-up, etc. So I said fine. I called a meeting and we made a plan to dole out jobs, reiterate the need for people to be on time, etc. I thought that solved it.

 

Fast forward to late Feb. I was talking to J on the phone one day and she said I should think about what I want to do next fall. At that point, tensions had mostly died back and I was excited by the possibility of a long-term co-op where my older son could mature with other people who shared the same faith. So I sent out this email to the moms that basically asked: what has worked for you this year, what hasn't, what should change, what do you want for next year...etc. I specifically told them to be *brutally* honest about what they needed so that we could get something in place that would work for everyone.

 

R and T never did answer the email. I did and J did. After a month of back and forth emails, we finally had a meeting. J couldn't be there, but she had basically let us know what she wanted. We made a plan for things, part of which included teaching chemistry next year, because R's oldest had already had biology.

 

Upon being told that we were doing chemistry next year, J (who probably would have had to teach it, because K wasn't interested) said that she really didn't think most of the kids had the math for chemistry and she made her case for biology. There was a flurry of emails back and forth about the pro/cons of chemistry and biology. Eventually, R sends an email that we can just forget all about it, she's done. She won't be coming back to co-op.

 

She refused to discuss anything further. Despite pleading for her to say what the problem was. Eventually, I decided to withdraw my son right after Easter, because there wasn't going to be a co-op the next year and I didn't want to waste any more time on the glacial pace of the physics class. Later, eventually, R discloses that it wasn't her oldest who had had biology, it was all of her teens. Like we were supposed to know that? And she made a comment with it that J and I would not have found her program rigorous enough (neither of us have the slightest idea what her program was to even begin to pass judgement on it, nor would we, all she had to do was say "my kids have already had biology"). And so, the co-op collapses.

 

If this all seems insane to you, it's because it is. I can't figure it out. This was one of my very best friends, and she turned into a crazy person.

 

Fast forward to May. I send her an email and say, "Look, I'd really like to get together and talk with you about what happened with co-op. I want to understand how you see things. Please know, that I have no intention of talking you into doing or not doing anything with co-op, because I am done with it and so have no dog in that fight. My only interest is in understanding your feelings because I am your friend and I care." She replied that she would love to see me, but she would talk about anything except co-op. I replied to her that it was exactly the thing that I *did* want to talk about, because I didn't want to sweep it under the rug and wanted the opportunity to make things right, if I could. She still refused. So I told her to let me know when she was ready to talk, but that I wasn't interested in a relationship where we ignore the elephant in the room. I have still not heard from her.

 

I am flabberghasted by all of this, and heartbroken at the loss of a friend. Her and T still hang out, apparently (though I haven't heard from T at all, either), but she will have nothing to do with me or J (she actually unfriended J on FB and unsubscribed to an email list for prayer requests, no chit-chat, that J runs).

 

This is truly the most insane thing I have ever experienced and I can't make heads or tails of it.

[KnitWit]

:grouphug::grouphug::grouphug:

 

I'm so sorry. This is one reason why we do our own thing. I cannot handle watching women behave like they are in jr. high. I'm a shoot from the hip person. If you have an issue with me, tell me. I promise the same for you. I really just cannot handle this kind of manipulation by women who play the martyr.

[Jean in Newcastle]

R has been passive aggressive throughout. You really can't address anything with anyone who is passive aggressive.

[justLisa]

I don't do co op because of the crazies. :grouphug:

[catz]

R has been passive aggressive throughout. You really can't address anything with anyone who is passive aggressive.

 

:iagree:

[Unicorn.]

Which is more important to you, the friendship, or having an answer? It seems to me that you are the one causing problems with the relationship. You call it the "elephant in the room", and don't want to talk to her unless she discuses it with you. You both have decided against the co-op, and she just wants to drop it and move on. To her, you are the one who is "beating a dead horse". If you really care about the friendship, I think you should apologize for your last email, and offer to get together and not talk about the co-op.

[MomatHWTK]

It sound like to me... R has things going on either with the co-op or life in general that have significantly lowered her ability or willingness to deal with conflict. She was placed in a position of conflict and chose to withdraw as a defense. She may be suffering from depression, she may have had a conflict with one of the other women that you aren't aware of, any number of things could be going on in her life. But I behave in a similar fashion when things are just too much (and usually it is a build up of many things all coming together.)

 

Then, if I understand correctly, you insisted that the issue of co-op be discussed in order to maintain the friendship? If someone said that to me when I was in the midst of "issues" my feeling would be that the person valued getting their answers over me. That may not have been your intent, and I may be misunderstanding, but if you give someone an ultimatum that pretty much tells them they are on balance with whatever the goal of the ultimatum is. KWIM?

 

What I would hope I would say to a struggling friend is, "I love you and you are my friend. If you need me, I'm there for you. We can talk about this other stuff if and when you are ready." Of course, if there were HUGE issues (and maybe this is to you) we might have to have it resolved. For instance, if the person was acting so strangely that I thought they were in danger or they were putting me or my family in danger- physical or spiritual, we'd have to talk about that. For other things, I am quite all right with someone saying "I just can't handle talking about it" because I have been there.

 

There are times when I know I am overreacting or am just not going to be able to talk about something rationally or in a Biblically correct way and I choose not to speak of it until I can.

 

This all may be totally off the mark- it's very hard to understand the group dynamics not being present when everything took place. It sounds like everyone had strengths and weaknesses that weren't a good fit as far as teaching a group.

 

But if the friendships are the item of value, then work to preserve them and let the failed project (co-op) go. :grouphug:

[SonshineLearner]

Sorry :( It really hurts when you lose someone who you thought was a friend :(

[Melissa in NC]

"I replied to her that it was exactly the thing that I *did* want to talk about, because I didn't want to sweep it under the rug and wanted the opportunity to make things right, if I could. She still refused. So I told her to let me know when she was ready to talk, but that I wasn't interested in a relationship where we ignore the elephant in the room. I have still not heard from her."

 

 

 

If she does not want to talk about it, let it rest. Threatening to withhold friendship because she does not want to rehash things is manipulative. I would not answer you if you made such a statement to me. I would not want you to "make things right" for me. Let her work things through herself.

[amy g.]

It sounds a little like you ended the relationship when you said that you had no interest in a relationship with an elephant in the room.

 

If a friend said that to me, I would assume that they wanted to either control me and make me talk a out something I already said I did not want to discuss, or they wanted to break ties completely.

 

I would have chosen the latter too.

[Remudamom]

Phfft. What elephant? It didn't work out and she is ready to move on. I don't see why you can't just drop it and get your friend back.

[happi duck]

I don't do co op because of the crazies. :grouphug:

 

:iagree: I think co ops really emphasize differences and ramp up the chance for hurt feelings.

[OLG]

It sounds like everyone had strengths and weaknesses that weren't a good fit as far as teaching a group.

 

But if the friendships are the item of value, then work to preserve them and let the failed project (co-op) go. :grouphug:

 

:iagree: This was my immediate thought as well as I read your post.

[TammyS]

But if the friendships are the item of value, then work to preserve them and let the failed project (co-op) go. :grouphug:

 

I have let the co-op go. As I said to her, I was not interested in talking her into or out of the co-op.

 

BECAUSE the friendship is important, I wanted to understand how she saw things. She behaved terribly to a group of people who bent over backwards to give her her way in the co-op and tore it apart. I would like to at least understand *why* she behaved this way if I ever have a chance of trusting her again. I need to know that when she says to me "it's all good" that it actually is.

[jujsky]

To me, it sounds like there was tension with R & J. It obviously wasn't JUST J being occasionally late that bugged R because as you said, K & T were also late sometimes and that didn't bother her. It was something else that rubbed her the wrong way about J. There had to be a lot more to it than that.

 

I do think pushing R to talk to you about her perceptions of the co-op debacle wasn't necessarily the best way to go about things. I don't know you. I don't know any of these people. I am the type who very much does like to expose the elephant in the room and kick it out, and it sounds like you also feel this way. Not everyone has that need. Some people need to let it go and move on in order to deal with things, and gain little by rehashing it all. In her mind, maybe it all has been dealt with, she's done, and sees no need to go back there. Also, it sounds from your post like you and J were more on the same page about things. At the very least, both of you took the initiative to say what you liked, what you didn't like, and you wanted at that point to move forward with the co-op. Maybe to R & somewhat to T (you said they were best friends, right?) they felt you and J were taking over and monopolizing the co-op, pushing things in a direction they didn't want to go. As best friends, you know those two are probably much more open with each other than they are with the rest of the group. Maybe they felt like there were aligned, that you and J were aligned, and that K was floating around in outer space somewhere. I am not saying you WERE trying to take over-- just saying that maybe they perceived you and J were doing that and didn't like it. It's hard to get a sense of personalities in your post -- who generally goes along with the crowd, who has a strong opinion, etc., so it's hard to judge.

 

It sounds from your post like you essentially gave R an ultimatum: meet with me and talk about co-op, or don't meet with me at all. I wouldn't like an ultimatum like that. I would want a friend to respect me enough to give me space. Maybe she will talk about it eventually, but isn't ready. Maybe she's the type who digs her heels in when given an ultimatum (I know if I'm pushed, I have a gut reaction to do the opposite of what I'm being pushed to do). She's chosen not to meet with you. You can't make her talk to you, but you do have a choice in this. You can open a door and meet with her without discussing co-op in an effort to salvage your friendship, or you can let your friendship go.

[Danestress]

You are not interested in a relationship with her unless she bends to your will and talks bout things she doesn't want to talk about.

 

Since you already dumped the co-op mid year, the co-op is done for you. Forget about it and move on.

[TammyS]

You are not interested in a relationship with her unless she bends to your will and talks bout things she doesn't want to talk about.

 

 

 

I guess I just don't see how it's wanting someone to "bend to your will" to discuss a problem in a relationship, rather than pretending that it's all hunky-dory. I also don't see how it is any different than her not wanting to talk about it? In those terms, then she's trying to bend me to her will.

Edited June 26, 2012 by TammyS

[Parker Martin]

Neither of you are even in the co-op now. Why care about it? Like a million other co-ops, it just didn't work out. There's no reason to talk about it.

[amy g.]

I get that you don't see how demanding your request was, but your friend does.

[jujsky]

I guess I just don't see how it's wanting someone to "bend to your will" to discuss a problem in a relationship, rather than pretending that it's all hunky-dory.

 

But you don't have to pretend everything is hunky-dory. You can acknowledge there is tension there, but you can try to talk around it. Maybe part of her problem was with you, but now that the co-op is over for both of you, she feels it would cause more harm than good to bring it up. While you feel right now that you'd like to know what's going on in her head, maybe it would just make things worse. I had a similar issue only I came out and told a friend why I was upset, and it did involve her. I wish I had kept my mouth shut.

[TammyS]

But you don't have to pretend everything is hunky-dory. You can acknowledge there is tension there, but you can try to talk around it. Maybe part of her problem was with you, but now that the co-op is over for both of you, she feels it would cause more harm than good to bring it up. While you feel right now that you'd like to know what's going on in her head, maybe it would just make things worse. I had a similar issue only I came out and told a friend why I was upset, and it did involve her. I wish I had kept my mouth shut.

 

I would rather know. I can either explain myself if it's a misunderstanding, or apologize if I've done something wrong. But right now, without knowing, I have no way to know that she won't act crazy the next time something happens that she doesn't like. I can't trust someone like that.

[Danestress]

I understand you want to talk. And I understand she wants to put on a happy face and move forward. I have been in both positions at various times. I do think for me, pretending not to be upset about something is a really useful tool. I credit my marital health with it. Other time talking really is good. I guess it is situational.

 

But she thinks you are in a situation where the less said the better, and you think hashing it all out would be best. And basically, you have told her that you don't want to be friends unless she gets with your program. That would make me bolt, in her position.

[TammyS]

I get that you don't see how demanding your request was, but your friend does.

 

Explain to me, please, how it is demanding to want to talk through a problem, but not demanding to refuse to talk through a problem?

[Jean in Newcastle]

Neither of you are even in the co-op now. Why care about it? Like a million other co-ops, it just didn't work out. There's no reason to talk about it.

 

I don't think she really wants to talk about the co-op as such. She wants to talk about R's bad behavior. But R's bad behavior came out of passive aggressiveness - complaining and crying but then refusing to talk about it. Then when the OP thought that all her complaints were addressed, it turns out that R still didn't want to do the co-op. The OP wants to know why.

 

OP, here's my take. R has a history of passive - aggressive behavior when faced with something that upsets her. You're going to have to either accept her that way or not. You can't force her to undergo "counseling" with you where she explains why she reacts this way.

 

As far as the co-op itself goes. It wasn't meeting anyone's needs academically as far as I can see, including your own child's needs. I would either hire a tutor for math and/or science (I did this this year), have your child do an online course or have him do the work at home. Each of the other moms are going to have to address their own child's needs in this regard. (As an aside, some of these moms seem to be doing their children an academic disservice in this.)

[KnitWit]

I don't think she really wants to talk about the co-op as such. She wants to talk about R's bad behavior. But R's bad behavior came out of passive aggressiveness - complaining and crying but then refusing to talk about it. Then when the OP thought that all her complaints were addressed, it turns out that R still didn't want to do the co-op. The OP wants to know why.

 

OP, here's my take. R has a history of passive - aggressive behavior when faced with something that upsets her. You're going to have to either accept her that way or not. You can't force her to undergo "counseling" with you where she explains why she reacts this way.

 

As far as the co-op itself goes. It wasn't meeting anyone's needs academically as far as I can see, including your own child's needs. I would either hire a tutor for math and/or science (I did this this year), have your child do an online course or have him do the work at home. Each of the other moms are going to have to address their own child's needs in this regard. (As an aside, some of these moms seem to be doing their children an academic disservice in this.)

 

This was my take on things as well.

[DianeW88]

I don't do co op because of the crazies. :grouphug:

 

:iagree: I stopped with co-ops when my oldest (now 21) was in 4th grade. Not worth it...at all. I will speak at a co-op for a presentation, I will speak at homeschool co-op parents' nights and homeschool conferences. But I will never be involved in a co-op again. 90% of them end in disaster.

[Kathryn]

It sound like to me... R has things going on either with the co-op or life in general that have significantly lowered her ability or willingness to deal with conflict. She was placed in a position of conflict and chose to withdraw as a defense. She may be suffering from depression, she may have had a conflict with one of the other women that you aren't aware of, any number of things could be going on in her life. But I behave in a similar fashion when things are just too much (and usually it is a build up of many things all coming together.)

 

Then, if I understand correctly, you insisted that the issue of co-op be discussed in order to maintain the friendship? If someone said that to me when I was in the midst of "issues" my feeling would be that the person valued getting their answers over me. That may not have been your intent, and I may be misunderstanding, but if you give someone an ultimatum that pretty much tells them they are on balance with whatever the goal of the ultimatum is. KWIM?

 

What I would hope I would say to a struggling friend is, "I love you and you are my friend. If you need me, I'm there for you. We can talk about this other stuff if and when you are ready." Of course, if there were HUGE issues (and maybe this is to you) we might have to have it resolved. For instance, if the person was acting so strangely that I thought they were in danger or they were putting me or my family in danger- physical or spiritual, we'd have to talk about that. For other things, I am quite all right with someone saying "I just can't handle talking about it" because I have been there.

 

There are times when I know I am overreacting or am just not going to be able to talk about something rationally or in a Biblically correct way and I choose not to speak of it until I can.

 

This all may be totally off the mark- it's very hard to understand the group dynamics not being present when everything took place. It sounds like everyone had strengths and weaknesses that weren't a good fit as far as teaching a group.

 

But if the friendships are the item of value, then work to preserve them and let the failed project (co-op) go. :grouphug:

 

To me, it sounds like there was tension with R & J. It obviously wasn't JUST J being occasionally late that bugged R because as you said, K & T were also late sometimes and that didn't bother her. It was something else that rubbed her the wrong way about J. There had to be a lot more to it than that.

 

I do think pushing R to talk to you about her perceptions of the co-op debacle wasn't necessarily the best way to go about things. I don't know you. I don't know any of these people. I am the type who very much does like to expose the elephant in the room and kick it out, and it sounds like you also feel this way. Not everyone has that need. Some people need to let it go and move on in order to deal with things, and gain little by rehashing it all. In her mind, maybe it all has been dealt with, she's done, and sees no need to go back there. Also, it sounds from your post like you and J were more on the same page about things. At the very least, both of you took the initiative to say what you liked, what you didn't like, and you wanted at that point to move forward with the co-op. Maybe to R & somewhat to T (you said they were best friends, right?) they felt you and J were taking over and monopolizing the co-op, pushing things in a direction they didn't want to go. As best friends, you know those two are probably much more open with each other than they are with the rest of the group. Maybe they felt like there were aligned, that you and J were aligned, and that K was floating around in outer space somewhere. I am not saying you WERE trying to take over-- just saying that maybe they perceived you and J were doing that and didn't like it. It's hard to get a sense of personalities in your post -- who generally goes along with the crowd, who has a strong opinion, etc., so it's hard to judge.

 

It sounds from your post like you essentially gave R an ultimatum: meet with me and talk about co-op, or don't meet with me at all. I wouldn't like an ultimatum like that. I would want a friend to respect me enough to give me space. Maybe she will talk about it eventually, but isn't ready. Maybe she's the type who digs her heels in when given an ultimatum (I know if I'm pushed, I have a gut reaction to do the opposite of what I'm being pushed to do). She's chosen not to meet with you. You can't make her talk to you, but you do have a choice in this. You can open a door and meet with her without discussing co-op in an effort to salvage your friendship, or you can let your friendship go.

 

:iagree: There is obviously some issue that she has that she doesn't feel is any of your business. I'm not sure how you are equating her refusing to talk about something with you with your demanding that she does. Her feelings are her own and she is under no obligation to share them with others. Yes, she shouldn't have let them spill over into your lives how she did, but as it stands you have no idea what it is she may be going through that she doesn't want to share. You seem to be surprised by what's happened, so it seems this is out of character for her. I'd think that a caring friend would give her the space she needs around what is obviously a sensitive topic and let it come out when it does, if ever.

[TammyS]

I'm not sure how you are equating her refusing to talk about something with you with your demanding that she does.

 

Because if we're going to talk about "demands" then demands-to is only a different side of demands-not-to. They are both about "demanding" something of the conversation.

[tex-mex]

Neither of you are even in the co-op now. Why care about it? Like a million other co-ops, it just didn't work out. There's no reason to talk about it.

:iagree:

 

And you get what you pay for... the teacher teaching the Apologia Physics was doing all of this for FREE. And truthfully, it sounds like most of the students levels were all over the map, making it difficult for her to teach. She most likely watered it down or supplemented it.

 

Just consider it a "wash". And move on. I do not do co-ops for my high schooler -- we work on our own at our own pace.

 

And if you use Apologia Physics, it is truly easy for parents to teach from with an Algebra I background and some sine, cosine & tangent basics thrown in. Just make sure you are well grounded in Algebra I before tackling Apologia Chemistry as you will be doing lots of problems using that prior math knowledge.

[Melissa in NC]

Explain to me, please, how it is demanding to want to talk through a problem, but not demanding to refuse to talk through a problem?

 

Your demand include an ultimatum that ended the friendship.

 

You said you do not trust her and she is "crazy". Perhaps she sees you exited the relationship already. I would not want to prove to someone I am not crazy.

[tex-mex]

I understand you want to talk. And I understand she wants to put on a happy face and move forward. I have been in both positions at various times. I do think for me, pretending not to be upset about something is a really useful tool. I credit my marital health with it. Other time talking really is good. I guess it is situational.

 

But she thinks you are in a situation where the less said the better, and you think hashing it all out would be best. And basically, you have told her that you don't want to be friends unless she gets with your program. That would make me bolt, in her position.

:iagree::iagree::iagree:

[VeritasMama]

It sounds like R doesn't deal with stress well, and the co-op caused her too much stress. I know a co-op would probably just stress me out as well, so we avoid them.

 

I understand that you wanted "closure." Your friend must have felt like she already had it. Making an ulitmatum like you did is probably what made her decide not to talk to you anymore, it was a bit pushy. I understand you want to talk about it, that means you need to express your feelings about the situation and she can listen. You really can't force other people to express their private feelings, even if those feelings have to do with you, and demanding that they express their private feelings to you or else is rude. I know you were trying to avoid a junior high type situation with her, but you ended up creating a whole new one.

[Kathryn]

Because if we're going to talk about "demands" then demands-to is only a different side of demands-not-to. They are both about "demanding" something of the conversation.

 

No, one is a demand and one is a refusal. You demand to talk about it. She refuses to talk about it. "No" wins, and if you can't deal with that,you're free to leave the relationship, as you chose to do.

[Wren5]

:grouphug: I can see both sides of this. I hate confrontation, but I also hate "pretending everything is fine".

 

Explain to me, please, how it is demanding to want to talk through a problem, but not demanding to refuse to talk through a problem?

They are both demanding in a way. You are both issuing the same command "friendship on my terms or not at all" I guess you have to decide if the principle or the person is more important to you because one of you has to budge if you want the friendship to continue.

 

You might also want to think about your past relationship with her very carefully when deciding what to do. Anyone can have blinders in an area, I think it's always good to do some healthy introspection when problems arise in friendship. I have a very good friend who will not see the forest for the trees when problems arise, I could explain an issue I was having with this person till I am blue in the face and they will never see it. I know this about this person and choose to have a relationship with them, but if they handed me an ultimatum "discuss your issue with X or give up the friendship", I'm not sure what I would do because I know that this particular person will not "hear" what I have to say and so it is a moot discussion to begin with and I refuse to start it. {not saying you are the problem or caused the problems in the relationship, I don't know you or her and certainly can't judge the situation just something else to think about, from my experience, before jettisoning the relationship}

[TammyS]

Your demand include an ultimatum that ended the friendship.

 

You said you do not trust her and she is "crazy". Perhaps she sees you exited the relationship already. I would not want to prove to someone I am not crazy.

 

I'm afraid that I don't get your logic. My demand included an ultimatum, but so did hers. I said I do want to talk about. She said she won't. I, at least, left the door open for her to talk in the future if she wants.

 

I didn't say she "is" crazy, I said she acted crazy. But you are right that I don't trust her and maybe I am done with this relationship. I wish it weren't so. But I can't see any way around it. I have no desire to be in a relationship with someone who won't talk to me about the real issues. I would be walking on eggshells all the time wondering what was going to happen next.

[TammyS]

It sounds like R doesn't deal with stress well, and the co-op caused her too much stress. I know a co-op would probably just stress me out as well, so we avoid them.

 

I understand that you wanted "closure." Your friend must have felt like she already had it. Making an ulitmatum like you did is probably what made her decide not to talk to you anymore, it was a bit pushy. I understand you want to talk about it, that means you need to express your feelings about the situation and she can listen. You really can't force other people to express their private feelings, even if those feelings have to do with you, and demanding that they express their private feelings to you or else is rude. I know you were trying to avoid a junior high type situation with her, but you ended up creating a whole new one.

 

No, I don't want to talk about her "feelings" about me. I want to know why she behaved the way that she did.

[TammyS]

No, one is a demand and one is a refusal. You demand to talk about it. She refuses to talk about it. "No" wins, and if you can't deal with that,you're free to leave the relationship, as you chose to do.

 

I'm sorry. I think your logic is wrong. One is a demand to talk. One is a demand not to (particularly in light of the fact that I wrote asking to talk about this very thing, and she wrote back that she wanted to see me, but demanded that we didn't talk about it).

[Soror]

I can see it both ways, really. Perhaps there is too much difference in your personalities. I like really open and honest friendships. I can also see if a friend told me they didn't want to talk about something letting it go at times as well. But likely it isn't going to return to just how things were at all and it is already dead, you might as well cut your ties now.

[Chelli]

I'm afraid that I don't get your logic. My demand included an ultimatum, but so did hers. I said I do want to talk about. She said she won't. I, at least, left the door open for her to talk in the future if she wants.

 

I didn't say she "is" crazy, I said she acted crazy. But you are right that I don't trust her and maybe I am done with this relationship. I wish it weren't so. But I can't see any way around it. I have no desire to be in a relationship with someone who won't talk to me about the real issues. I would be walking on eggshells all the time wondering what was going to happen next.

 

You said in your OP that you've been friends with R for five years. You also said that her and the other friends are serious Chistian women. Taking into consideration how angry she was at J, I would think that her issues are between her and J. If she takes her Christianity seriously, as you said, she might not want to talk about it with you because it doesn't involve you and would be gossiping.

 

I would assume the best about your friend. If she hasn't thrown you a loop in five year, then I would not say this is normal behavior. I would say that she and J had problems. She doesn't want to discuss it with you because you are not involved.

[Melissa in NC]

I'm afraid that I don't get your logic. My demand included an ultimatum, but so did hers. I said I do want to talk about. She said she won't. I, at least, left the door open for her to talk in the future if she wants.

 

I didn't say she "is" crazy, I said she acted crazy. But you are right that I don't trust her and maybe I am done with this relationship. I wish it weren't so. But I can't see any way around it. I have no desire to be in a relationship with someone who won't talk to me about the real issues. I would be walking on eggshells all the time wondering what was going to happen next.

 

Let put this in a different context. You say you want to go out to eat at a Italian Restaurant. I say I would like to go out but I do not want to go Italian. That is not a demand on my part, just the give and take of a relationship. You counter that it is Italian or you do not want to see me again until I eat Italian with you. That is a demand and an ultimatum.

 

From your post, I think you need to be honest with yourself you are ticked off at her for her behavior.

 

"She behaved terribly to a group of people who bent over backwards to give her her way in the co-op and tore it apart."

 

Perhaps she is right. You both need breathing room to cool off.

[jennsmile]

:grouphug::grouphug::grouphug:

 

Sorry. Losing a coop is hard. Thankfully at WTM we mostly play nice. It has taken the place of my coop. I do have friends that homeschool locally but I don't think I will ever do a coop again. :grouphug:

[Farrar]

R has been passive aggressive throughout. You really can't address anything with anyone who is passive aggressive.

 

Yep. And people who don't realize how passive aggressive they've been often *think* they've stated their feelings clearly already even though they totally haven't. Because to them, the meaning behind what they did was obvious and it's the rest of you all who are being crazy. Sigh.

[Kathryn]

You said in your OP that you've been friends with R for five years. You also said that her and the other friends are serious Chistian women. Taking into consideration how angry she was at J, I would think that her issues are between her and J. If she takes her Christianity seriously, as you said, she might not want to talk about it with you because it doesn't involve you and would be gossiping.

 

I would assume the best about your friend. If she hasn't thrown you a loop in five year, then I would not say this is normal behavior. I would say that she and J had problems. She doesn't want to discuss it with you because you are not involved.

 

Let put this in a different context. You say you want to go out to eat at a Italian Restaurant. I say I would like to go out but I do not want to go Italian. That is not a demand on my part, just the give and take of a relationship. You counter that it is Italian or you do not want to see me again until I eat Italian with you. That is a demand and an ultimatum.

 

From your post, I think you need to be honest with yourself you are ticked off at her for her behavior.

 

"She behaved terribly to a group of people who bent over backwards to give her her way in the co-op and tore it apart."

 

Perhaps she is right. You both need breathing room to cool off.

 

:iagree:

[RanchGirl]

oh my word, what a terrible co-op experience for all of you! Would it be possible to just have a board game/backyard sports type get together for the kids every other week to keep up the friendships but get rid of the academics issue since you're all clearly incompatible in that area?

 

She might have been upset that you did not trust that she had a reason for her behavior. She might find it unpleasant to re-hash everything that happened. She might fear that in the guise of "understanding", you actually want to "assign blame". She might be under the impression that you can't accept another person's point of view without trying to argue them over to your side and not wish to get into that discussion with you.

 

If this is a good friendship that has lasted 5-10 years with no "acting crazy", then I would be happy that she is willing to move on from this horrible co-op experience and try to get back to a place of friendship. You are giving the message that it is more important to you to be right than to continue the friendship. If you are angry about her behavior and unwilling to move past it, then just accept the end of the friendship and move on.

Edited June 26, 2012 by RanchGirl

[ktgrok]

I don't understand what you are so upset about? She got upset that everyone wanted to do Biology, and got overemotional (probably because of being over tired or hormones or something totally unrelated), and decided not to do the co-op anymore as it wasn't going to meet her needs. What is so crazy and awful about that? What am I missing? Sure, she could have been less emotional about it, but she is not acting that way now, and I see no reason to make her revisit her sins and confess them to you.

[2cents]

I'm so sorry you had to deal with this. I could have written your story but with a lot more craziness added. I was in a coop that sounds a lot like this. Started by friends and eventually learning styles and levels became an issue, along with accountability and long story short-eventual self destruction. It is one of the main reasons I shy away from coops and would rather endure any kind of torture instead of being involved in running a coop. :grouphug:

[Elinor Everywhere]

You said in your OP that you've been friends with R for five years. You also said that her and the other friends are serious Chistian women. Taking into consideration how angry she was at J, I would think that her issues are between her and J. If she takes her Christianity seriously, as you said, she might not want to talk about it with you because it doesn't involve you and would be gossiping.

 

I would assume the best about your friend. If she hasn't thrown you a loop in five year, then I would not say this is normal behavior. I would say that she and J had problems. She doesn't want to discuss it with you because you are not involved.

 

:iagree::iagree:

[Unicorn.]

No, I don't want to talk about her "feelings" about me. I want to know why she behaved the way that she did.

 

Maybe she had some private stressors going on in her life that don't concern you. She doesn't want to talk about it...let it go. One thing you need to understand about true friendship... Friends are there for each other when they need them... they listen when needed, offer advice when asked, but they Don't try and force a friend to discuss something they aren't comfortable with. They're just there.

[TammyS]

Maybe she had some private stressors going on in her life that don't concern you. She doesn't want to talk about it...let it go. One thing you need to understand about true friendship... Friends are there for each other when they need them... they listen when needed, offer advice when asked, but they Don't try and force a friend to discuss something they aren't comfortable with. They're just there.

 

I disagree. When you treat someone badly, you can't seriously expect them to keep right on "just being there" without dealing with it.

[Sweets]

I think it best to just let things go for a while and minimize contact. I think everyone is still very emotional about the whole situation. Three years ago, we left a coop for basically similar reasons. My feelings were deeply hurt by the actions of two or three people. The more I tried to talk it out, basically emailed apologies if I had hurt feelings, or just tried to stay out of people's way during coop did not make any difference. I was frozen out. It was all very high school drama, IMO. Now that my kids are in high school, we have no time for coops.

 

I think this is actually a common occurrence with a coop that feelings get hurt. In the past two years, two local coops have failed, one for stress and one just because no one wanted to take over running it. This has also caused a lot of anger because the kids are the ones hurting.

 

I hope you work this out but IMO just let the whole situation drop with regards to your friend. Try contacting her again in a couple months just to chat but don't mention coop. She has already said she doesn't want to talk about it.