S/O 1 income thread- In your area, would 1 blue collar job support a family modestly?

[Sneezyone]

:iagree: And as a society, with some of the handouts we DO choose to give, it is like we encourage the poor choices!!

 

:iagree: Totally agree. What oil company needs subsidies for exploration given current crude prices? That money could be spent encouraging individuals to plan or prevent parenthood, go to college, subsidize childcare or rebuild our crumbling roads and bridges.

[cdrumm4448]

DH has worked a blue collar job his entire adult life. It definitely can and does support our family. We live in the suburbs of Chicago. It can be done. We also save more than anyone I know.

[amy g.]

In our area, yes, but we have a very low cost of living, and a good supply of jobs here compared to other parts of the country.

 

We have a friend who is a carpenter, and makes over $100,000 a year with no college education at all.

[LaxMom]

Yes, but...

 

We live in a very rural area. We jockey with another county for "poorest county in the state".

 

Most of the people I know have single income households - not just homeschoolers, but just general people I meet in the course of my life - and most jobs here are blue-collar, non "professional", hourly type jobs. There's a lot of farming, building and service, county and municipal jobs. Our plumber *may* be part of a union but, with 5 or 6 guys doing jobs, they're unlikely to be doing any collective bargaining. (read: our blue-collar jobs are not mill jobs, or other large, corporate situations)

 

Interestingly, in 2000, the median income for a household was $38k, family $44k. In 2010, the median household income was $58k, which is only surprising to me because it seems low compared to a huge influx of 2-income professional households that migrated over during the housing boom. The Washington Post called us the fastest growing county in the US at one point during the boom, and that was largely due to people working in Annapolis, DC, Baltimore, etc being priced out of their local markets (what's a commute when you can choose a huge house with acreage for $200k over a condo for $450k?)... But the local jobs and cost of living (other than housing prices during the boom) haven't changed all that much in the 12 years we've lived here.

 

So, yes, and I'm not actually sure how "modestly" a family would have to live, really.

[LaxMom]

I'm afraid what you're reading is fairly representative of the national dialogue in the states these days. By your reaction, I gather you don't want us to export our special brand of cognitive dissonance? *shaking off that unpleasant thought*. Everyone wants to be us! :D

 

:lol: snort, snort, cough. :lol:

[AdventureMoms]

In my town, one blue collar income could be pretty reasonable. However, that is partly because our housing is very cheap (my nice 3-bedroom home on a LARGE lot in a great city location cost under $100,000). Houses that need some work on small lots or a bit farther out are available for $50,000, sometimes less. Also, there are a couple of employers who have some highly skilled blue-collar jobs available. Those actually pay quite well (better than many white-collar jobs). Even with our cheap housing stock it would be pretty hard on anything close to minimum wage - the folks who work at Walmart or in fast food wouldn't be likely to manage. FWIW, our real estate is cheap, but our utilities, taxes, food, and transportation costs are quite high. Most cost of living calculators I've seen put us at about average overall.

[Aspasia]

Not where we live. We are just outside of DC and the cost of housing is insane!

 

This I us. It definitely wouldn't happen around here. But we're from the Salt Lake City area of Utah and I have several friends whose husbands are plumbers or do other blue collar jobs and I think they do okay out there. (I THINK. They may be supplementing with part-time work that I don't know about.)

 

But yeah, around here, it's hard enough to live on the one income of someone with a graduate degree working in technology or high-level government.

[Aelwydd]

The sneers and assumptions made about how people live and what people want is a little breath taking, tbh. It's why I stayed out of the other thread and why I probably should have skipped this one as well.

 

It's disheartening to say the least.

 

 

I agree with you, but get used to it. I've read many, many threads with the same haughty attitudes about what people must be doing with their money, and how they could do x,y, or z (live more modestly, have more kids, etc.) if they only tried a little harder.

[MomtoCandJ]

my dh makes 13 an hour, bring home around 950 twice a month. We are able to make it. We are buying our home at 300 a month on land contract, we now own both vehicles out right (2002 ford taurus and 1994 mazda b2300), have cell phones (no land line), mobile broadband for internet and satellite tv. We did have food stamps up until febuary, we could get it again if we want to but we want to see if we can make it with out them. We do get WIC though for dd. It would make life a whole lot easier though if gas wasn't so much. I am trying to find a small part time job so that I can cover gas for at least my car (want fridays and weekends so I don't need to pay for child care)

[Sneezyone]

I worked in weatherzation in a deep southern state up until last year. There, a wage-earner working an unskilled, blue collar job (and even some skilled ones) would, with a family of four, probably fall at 100% or below of the federal poverty line (about $23K/year). As part of my job, I routinely visited/inspected the workmanship performed on these homes.

 

Most were headed by elderly individuals on social security (with and without children) or one or two-parents working at Wal-Mart or a local gypsum or chicken plant. If a mom was home it was usually due to unemployment or the needs of two or more children under age 5. These families weren't living modestly or whatever other nice euphemism we want to use. They were poor and they were living in poverty.

 

I routinely saw both owner-occuped and rental homes with windows busted out, holes in exterior walls and rotted subfloors. I recall one home where so many roaches were stuck to the masking taped windows that you couldn't tell the tape had once been yellow. I met elderly women caring for their grandchildren in homes with obvious gas leaks. I found children playing in areas/soil contaminated by lead-based paint chips. I wish I could say this was uncommon but 8/10 homes had one or more significant health or safety issues, usually both, and this was just last year.

 

The best part was going into people's homes to inspect the Recovery Act-funded work, hear the gratitude and relief in their voices at finally having heat or A/C, and then listen to them rail about government handouts for ne'er do wells, bums, and leaches.:001_huh: Seriously. You had to be there. I especially enjoyed the numerous slumlords who delivered applications to their apartment or mobile home tenants but declined to participate when they learned an owner-contribution/offset was required to avoid undue enhancement. :glare:

In a community just south of the state's capital city, 3/4 of consumers had to be turned away from our program because their homes (both owner occupied and rentals) were in such poor condition (leaky roofs, exposed knob and tube wiring and sometimes hoarding behavior). Issues went way beyond having to live with property crime, meth lab contamination and subpar schools - those things were a given. Internet access was not on their list of must-haves.

 

The waiting list for these gov't. funded services was usually two years but stimulus funds cut that down to four months. Still, each year we had to remove people from our waiting lists who'd died waiting.

 

These folks and their children didn't have access to union jobs, quality schools, home loans or any of the tools that helped build the middle class in the 40s, 50s, 60s and 70s. The social security they now receive is based on artificially depressed wages earned during their prime working years.

 

Landlords may be required to provide a home that's up to code but homes that don't meet code are often all that these folks can afford.

 

In all the time I visited homes, I never met a person who didn't take pride in themselves, aspire to have more, do more or be more than their current circumstances permitted. What I did see were lots of wonderful, generous people who lacked an understanding of what they could or should have done differently. It's not as though there are a lot of role models for economic mobility in areas of concentrated poverty. Eliminating social supports doesn't change this knowledge gap.

 

I guess I feel like we're living in a time that's more like the Hunger Games than not. The unwashed masses in the middle and working classes are being pitted against one another to fight for scraps, hoping sponsors in Congress will find them sufficiently interesting to offer much-needed aid, deliberately kept ignorant about the real enemy (HINT: it isn't their fellow combatants). It's funny that evolutionary adaptation is so controversial when survival of the fittest people is such a popular meme.

Edited April 11, 2012 by Sneezyone

[BlsdMama]

In Iowa - yes

In Oregon - wow, I don't know... It would be hard to swing for what people pay for housing out here!

[ereks mom]

It depends on the job. If the person is unskilled--such as factory, maintenance, construction--probably not. For skilled labor--such as auto mechanic, plumber, appliance repair--probably so.

[KungFuPanda]

Right, but the coasts are not the majority of the country's geographic areas, and there are plenty of places even "on the coasts" that are outside the major cities or otherwise cost less than a Manhattan penthouse suite. You can't tell me that Fresno or Oakland costs as much as San Jose.

 

And some of the members on here might want to live in some of those places, but stay in places like Oklahoma exactly because it's halfway affordable. Not glamorous but at least we're not homeless. But that doesn't mean we don't understand how expensive life is. Some of those of us who stay at home make enormous sacrifices so that technically we may be evidence that people can get by. That doesn't mean we are recommending it to anyone or don't want a break.

 

Relocating isn't always an option. Some jobs just don't exist outside of certain areas, and once you start a family it can be nearly impossible to take the pay cut that a career change may require.

 

I live in one of the "top 10 richest counties" in the country. It sounds impressive on paper, but it just means that everything (salaries included) is inflated. Since it costs about $1000 to cut down a tree around here, I think a blue collar worker could do well here. However, if your family makes less than $40k a year, there is just NOWHERE to live. No house, townhouse, or condo exists for less than 4x this salary. It's not a matter of choosing a different home . . .the home is just not available in a realistic price range.

 

The ONLY way I've seen this accomplished is if a large extended family buys a home together and most of the adults work (under the table) to keep up with the mortgage and expenses. I've seen this done to get into our school system.

 

I would LOVE to have the option to move back to WV where it's less populated and the cost of living is significantly lower, but white color jobs are hard to come by and, in my husband's field, they simply do not exist there. It's WHY we're here. Also, with a disabled son, we NEED to be near quality medical care. The level of care he receives here is NOT available everywhere. It's sad, but it just isn't.

 

I think it's kind of great that another poster had a bit of a pioneering adventure growing up with the house being built around them and hauling water. Her water was clean and I'd argue that her childhood was healthier than any suburban kid in a 3000 sq ft home who spent his childhood on the couch.

[Aelwydd]

I worked in weatherzation in a deep southern state up until last year. There, a wage-earner working an unskilled, blue collar job (and even some skilled ones) would, with a family of four, probably fall at 100% or below of the federal poverty line (about $23K/year). As part of my job, I routinely visited/inspected the workmanship performed on these homes.

 

Most were headed by elderly individuals on social security (with and without children) or one or two-parents working at Wal-Mart or a local gypsum or chicken plant. If a mom was home it was usually due to unemployment or the needs of two or more children under age 5. These families weren't living modestly or whatever other nice euphemism we want to use. They were poor and they were living in poverty.

 

I routinely saw both owner-occuped and rental homes with windows busted out, holes in exterior walls and rotted subfloors. I recall one home where so many roaches were stuck to the masking taped windows that you couldn't tell the tape had once been yellow. I met elderly women caring for their grandchildren in homes with obvious gas leaks. I found children playing in areas/soil contaminated by lead-based paint chips. I wish I could say this was uncommon but 8/10 homes had one or more significant health or safety issues, usually both, and this was just last year.

 

The best part was going into people's homes to inspect the Recovery Act-funded work, hear the gratitude and relief in their voices at finally having heat or A/C, and then listen to them rail about government handouts for ne'er do wells, bums, and leaches.:001_huh: Seriously. You had to be there. I especially enjoyed the numerous slumlords who delivered applications to their apartment or mobile home tenants but declined to participate when they learned an owner-contribution/offset was required to avoid undue enhancement. :glare:

In a community just south of the state's capital city, 3/4 of consumers had to be turned away from our program because their homes (both owner occupied and rentals) were in such poor condition (leaky roofs, exposed knob and tube wiring and sometimes hoarding behavior). Issues went way beyond having to live with property crime, meth lab contamination and subpar schools - those things were a given. Internet access was not on their list of must-haves.

 

The waiting list for these gov't. funded services was usually two years but stimulus funds cut that down to four months. Still, each year we had to remove people from our waiting lists who'd died waiting.

 

These folks and their children didn't have access to union jobs, quality schools, home loans or any of the tools that helped build the middle class in the 40s, 50s, 60s and 70s. The social security they now receive is based on artificially depressed wages earned during their prime working years.

 

Landlords may be required to provide a home that's up to code but homes that don't meet code are often all that these folks can afford.

 

In all the time I visited homes, I never met a person who didn't take pride in themselves, aspire to have more, do more or be more than their current circumstances permitted. What I did see were lots of wonderful, generous people who lacked an understanding of what they could or should have done differently. It's not as though there are a lot of role models for economic mobility in areas of concentrated poverty. Eliminating social supports doesn't change this knowledge gap.

 

I guess I feel like we're living in a time that's more like the Hunger Games than not. The unwashed masses in the middle and working classes are being pitted against one another to fight for scraps, hoping sponsors in Congress will find them sufficiently interesting to offer much-needed aid, deliberately kept ignorant about the real enemy (HINT: it isn't their fellow combatants). It's funny that evolutionary adaptation is so controversial when survival of the fittest people is such a popular meme.

 

 

This is the same reality my husband saw every day for more than four years working in a public clinic in Texas. We're not even in a rural area, and the above is the most apt description of what he encountered, that's it's as uncanny as it is depressing.

[justamouse]

In all the time I visited homes, I never met a person who didn't take pride in themselves, aspire to have more, do more or be more than their current circumstances permitted. What I did see were lots of wonderful, generous people who lacked an understanding of what they could or should have done differently. It's not as though there are a lot of role models for economic mobility in areas of concentrated poverty. Eliminating social supports doesn't change this knowledge gap.

 

I guess I feel like we're living in a time that's more like the Hunger Games than not. The unwashed masses in the middle and working classes are being pitted against one another to fight for scraps, hoping sponsors in Congress will find them sufficiently interesting to offer much-needed aid, deliberately kept ignorant about the real enemy (HINT: it isn't their fellow combatants). It's funny that evolutionary adaptation is so controversial when survival of the fittest people is such a popular meme.

It's a harsh reality. Thank you for typing all that out.

[mommaduck]

It depends on the job. If the person is unskilled--such as factory, maintenance, construction--probably not. For skilled labor--such as auto mechanic, plumber, appliance repair--probably so.

A lot of factory jobs are skilled. Same with construction.

[momma2three]

I worked in weatherzation in a deep southern state up until last year. There, a wage-earner working an unskilled, blue collar job (and even some skilled ones) would, with a family of four, probably fall at 100% or below of the federal poverty line (about $23K/year). As part of my job, I routinely visited/inspected the workmanship performed on these homes.

 

Most were headed by elderly individuals on social security (with and without children) or one or two-parents working at Wal-Mart or a local gypsum or chicken plant. If a mom was home it was usually due to unemployment or the needs of two or more children under age 5. These families weren't living modestly or whatever other nice euphemism we want to use. They were poor and they were living in poverty.

 

I routinely saw both owner-occuped and rental homes with windows busted out, holes in exterior walls and rotted subfloors. I recall one home where so many roaches were stuck to the masking taped windows that you couldn't tell the tape had once been yellow. I met elderly women caring for their grandchildren in homes with obvious gas leaks. I found children playing in areas/soil contaminated by lead-based paint chips. I wish I could say this was uncommon but 8/10 homes had one or more significant health or safety issues, usually both, and this was just last year.

 

The best part was going into people's homes to inspect the Recovery Act-funded work, hear the gratitude and relief in their voices at finally having heat or A/C, and then listen to them rail about government handouts for ne'er do wells, bums, and leaches.:001_huh: Seriously. You had to be there. I especially enjoyed the numerous slumlords who delivered applications to their apartment or mobile home tenants but declined to participate when they learned an owner-contribution/offset was required to avoid undue enhancement. :glare:

In a community just south of the state's capital city, 3/4 of consumers had to be turned away from our program because their homes (both owner occupied and rentals) were in such poor condition (leaky roofs, exposed knob and tube wiring and sometimes hoarding behavior). Issues went way beyond having to live with property crime, meth lab contamination and subpar schools - those things were a given. Internet access was not on their list of must-haves.

 

The waiting list for these gov't. funded services was usually two years but stimulus funds cut that down to four months. Still, each year we had to remove people from our waiting lists who'd died waiting.

 

These folks and their children didn't have access to union jobs, quality schools, home loans or any of the tools that helped build the middle class in the 40s, 50s, 60s and 70s. The social security they now receive is based on artificially depressed wages earned during their prime working years.

 

Landlords may be required to provide a home that's up to code but homes that don't meet code are often all that these folks can afford.

 

In all the time I visited homes, I never met a person who didn't take pride in themselves, aspire to have more, do more or be more than their current circumstances permitted. What I did see were lots of wonderful, generous people who lacked an understanding of what they could or should have done differently. It's not as though there are a lot of role models for economic mobility in areas of concentrated poverty. Eliminating social supports doesn't change this knowledge gap.

 

I guess I feel like we're living in a time that's more like the Hunger Games than not. The unwashed masses in the middle and working classes are being pitted against one another to fight for scraps, hoping sponsors in Congress will find them sufficiently interesting to offer much-needed aid, deliberately kept ignorant about the real enemy (HINT: it isn't their fellow combatants). It's funny that evolutionary adaptation is so controversial when survival of the fittest people is such a popular meme.

 

:hurray:

 

I can't agree with this post enough. The last paragraph especially.

[Soror]

I think it is easier to say that anyone can move up if they just work hard enough because admitting otherwise means we might have to admit that few of us are entirely immune to a life changing circumstance. Most of the people on this board are already blessed beyond belief. We all want to entirely attribute that to our own hard work and good choices but most everyone has had some help or good luck along the way. My husband works his tail off to make "good" money but I know a lot of other people do as well and don't get paid well, field workers and millions of others in the world come to mind. Heck, the fact that we are born in America gives us a level of privilege not seen for most of the world. As women here we have the option of education and don't have to worry about being married off at 15. We have running water. As to wages and what is fair I don't know how you quantify that. I don't know what is fair. I think everyone deserves the basic necessities and everyone who is able should be working to provide that for their own family. I think we as a community should provide for those that cannot, as to how to do that(what mix of gov't and ind charity) and qualifications is a whole other matter and I've yet to hear of any system that seems to be fair to both groups of the population.

Edited April 11, 2012 by soror

[Mergath]

I think it is easier to say that anyone can move up if they just work hard enough because admitting otherwise means we might have to admit that few of us are entirely immune to a life changing circumstance. Most of the people on this board are already blessed beyond belief. We all want to entirely attribute that to our own hard work and good choices but most everyone has had some help or good luck along the way.

 

:iagree: In other posts similar to this one, I don't know how many times I've heard people say, "Well, I worked hard to get where I am!" They mean, of course, that they were born to well-off parents who put them in a good school that allowed them to get into a good university which their parents paid for, which then allowed them to get a good job that pays ten times what most other people make.

 

Honestly, if a person thinks that just getting through college for four years without failing is such hard work, they need to expand their worldview. All of us posting on this board, without exception, have been lucky beyond belief, just through the accident of birth in developed countries.

[mommaduck]

:iagree: In other posts similar to this one, I don't know how many times I've heard people say, "Well, I worked hard to get where I am!" They mean, of course, that they were born to well-off parents who put them in a good school that allowed them to get into a good university which their parents paid for, which then allowed them to get a good job that pays ten times what most other people make.

 

Honestly, if a person thinks that just getting through college for four years without failing is such hard work, they need to expand their worldview. All of us posting on this board, without exception, have been lucky beyond belief, just through the accident of birth in developed countries.

:iagree: Thank you!

[regentrude]

All of us posting on this board, without exception, have been lucky beyond belief, just through the accident of birth in developed countries.

 

Amen to that.

It makes me cringe that people consider living on 600 square feet with only two bedrooms a hardship (see earlier in this thread)- where this is unattainable luxury in many parts of the world.

[Scuff]

It did well when we were growing up. But they've cut benefits and pay for the newcomers. It's still good enough to support a family, but frugally.

[MrsBear]

:iagree: In other posts similar to this one, I don't know how many times I've heard people say, "Well, I worked hard to get where I am!" They mean, of course, that they were born to well-off parents who put them in a good school that allowed them to get into a good university which their parents paid for, which then allowed them to get a good job that pays ten times what most other people make.

 

And then there are those who really have worked extremely hard to get where they are today, who were born into utter poverty, who beat the odds and who are grateful for the opportunities they were afforded for their hard work and perseverance; who didn't just throw their hands in the air and think, when they looked around them, and saw everyone else in poverty, that that was their lot in life.

 

Honestly, if a person thinks that just getting through college for four years without failing is such hard work, they need to expand their worldview. All of us posting on this board, without exception, have been lucky beyond belief, just through the accident of birth in developed countries.

 

I do agree that being born in the US (or other developed country) is advantageous when compared with the rest of the world; however, this is a logical fallacy and not within the discussion at hand - whether one "blue collar" job can support a family.

[mommaduck]

Amen to that.

It makes me cringe that people consider living on 600 square feet with only two bedrooms a hardship (see earlier in this thread)- where this is unattainable luxury in many parts of the world.

Yep, it would be a hardship to squeeze 10 people into that. Even more difficult would be trying to find a place where it would be legally allowed. :001_smile:

[Tarreymere]

So, how do we get the people from the pockets of poverty that are willing to work hard and move them to the areas that have work? Some kind of national clearinghouse for jobs? Maybe some assistance for families who are willing to sign up to be relocated? If we can't create jobs where these people live, can we at least offer them the alternative of moving to an area where they can get a job?

 

We don't have hard core poverty in my area, but we do have a culture of entitlement. My Dh has worked in human services in our area for over thirty years and based on his experience, we simply do not have the kind of poverty that exists in the deep south or other areas. We do have a culture of folks who simply aren't interested in working or working much, and enough government handouts to make that dream work out for a good number of people. How can we even things out?

[Parrothead]

Around here I think it can be done. Honestly I don't know what the vast majority of the population in this area does for a living. We have a lot of farm land, but not necessarily a lot of farmers. We don't have any industry to speak of. No high rise offices. There does seem to be a fair share of mom and pop businesses.

 

Housing is cheap here. I could buy a fairly decent house for $39,000. I'd do it today but I don't like the location. Or I could go out to the lake and spend a quarter million. Which I don't want to do because I see it as a waste of money.

 

People get by fairly well here.

[Tarreymere]

So you are saying that young girls/women who have children should become handmaidens for the wealthy or accept a life of poverty? Wow.

 

Well, I've seen plenty of them CHOOSE to live on assistance and do nothing to improve their circumstances. Like finish high school (lots of free ways to do that around here), or be willing to accept the offers of about a dozen agencies in my area to fund job training. Heck, the mothers might even consider going to <gasp> college. And please do not cry to me about how hard that would be....I put myself through college with two children as a single parent and received no child support, no help from my family and no government assistance. I actually had a minimum wage job and took out those evil student loans, but I had enough sense to major in an area that I had good reason to expect a decent job offer on graduation.

 

People have choices. They often make bad ones. I do not support the idea of a welfare state. Any pregnant teens in my family better get a decent job. In fact, I had a pregnant teen as a foster daughter in kinship care (which basically meant she lived with us but was peripherally related so we didn't get any stipend for her) and we MADE her get her GED (free) and MADE her find a decent job (certified nurses aide with paid on the job training, and that was before she got her GED). With her nurses' aide certification she made as much money as a skilled manufacturing worker and was able to support herself and her daughter. Fast forward a few years and this kid even has started her own small business, hiring out home help workers to seniors who need assistance with basic care.

 

WHAT exactly would you have her do instead? Sit around for the next fifty or sixty years moaning about her undeserved fate and collecting a government check? That was apparently HER plan (she had and still has a lot of friends who have done just that).....but we did not permit her to do that. We had expectations and believed she DO something. Like, accept responsibility for her poor choices and get busy trying to make a life for herself. Wow, indeed.

Edited April 11, 2012 by Rainefox

[sunflowerlady]

I have not read all the replies and simply do not have time to do so. I voted yes that is is possible in my area. Dh is a blue collar worker and I have stayed at home with our dd all her life. She will be 13 tomorrow.

That said, we have some circumstances that make it easier and a bit more comfortable for us, while at the same time there are adjustments we have made and things we do without.

 

There are many, many homeschool families in my area with stay at home moms and I am sure a good number of those have blue collar worker husbands.

 

I cannot comment on other families' finances or how they manage,but I know it is being done.

[Mynyel]

My dh got an offer to work the the city. The pay? Just over $9 an hour. Now we are a family of 5, however that wouldn't have supported us even if we were a family of 4.

[Crimson Wife]

In other posts similar to this one, I don't know how many times I've heard people say, "Well, I worked hard to get where I am!" They mean, of course, that they were born to well-off parents who put them in a good school that allowed them to get into a good university which their parents paid for, which then allowed them to get a good job that pays ten times what most other people make.

 

Or it could be that the individual grew up in modest circumstances but worked his backside off to piece together scholarships that allowed him to attend a top university, after which he had to spend a number years serving in the military to fulfill the terms of his scholarship obligations.

 

But let's not let reality ruin your smug little stereotype :rolleyes:

[SKL]

:iagree: In other posts similar to this one, I don't know how many times I've heard people say, "Well, I worked hard to get where I am!" They mean, of course, that they were born to well-off parents who put them in a good school that allowed them to get into a good university which their parents paid for, which then allowed them to get a good job that pays ten times what most other people make.

 

Honestly, if a person thinks that just getting through college for four years without failing is such hard work, they need to expand their worldview. All of us posting on this board, without exception, have been lucky beyond belief, just through the accident of birth in developed countries.

 

I wonder why it is so hard to believe that some people actually made good choices that paid off?

 

Why do some people not WANT to believe that?

 

I get that experiences are different in different regions, but my experience here is that if you want to make something of yourself (more than you want to experience immediate pleasure), then that's the outcome. Period. I was born poor and everyone in my family (6 siblings) currently gets by just fine on a single income (with half being blue-collar incomes). I have seen this pattern many times over. The other pattern I've seen is that people who refuse to adapt to the changes they can't control are downwardly mobile.

 

The state I live in is reportedly one of the most poverty-stricken states in the USA right now, just for reference. As for parental help - I helped my parents financially beginning at age 16 (not counting the free childcare I provided for my younger sibs from age 9 onward). The only financial help they gave me for my education was providing a copy of their tax return, which qualified me for student loans at the nearest state university.

 

I do agree that we here are ALL blessed. I never lose sight of that. However, that does not change the fact that I did my homework while my classmates scoffed at the teachers. Or that I kept my pants on while some others did not. Or that I've never spent a penny on alcohol or tobacco, leave alone illegal drugs. I absolutely believe that matters. If that offends someone, I can't help that.

 

I hope none of you are teaching your kids that their choices really don't matter in life. Apparently that is the lesson some young people are getting.

 

I would also note that the question here was whether or not a blue-collar income in your area can support a family. Not whether poor people are jerks. The answer for roughly half of the respondents is "yes" or "yes, depending on how you define 'modest' and 'blue-collar.' The other half live in places where this is not realistic. This is interesting to know and not a reflection on anyone's work ethic, in my opinion.

[justamouse]

:iagree: In other posts similar to this one, I don't know how many times I've heard people say, "Well, I worked hard to get where I am!" They mean, of course, that they were born to well-off parents who put them in a good school that allowed them to get into a good university which their parents paid for, which then allowed them to get a good job that pays ten times what most other people make.

 

Honestly, if a person thinks that just getting through college for four years without failing is such hard work, they need to expand their worldview. All of us posting on this board, without exception, have been lucky beyond belief, just through the accident of birth in developed countries.

 

Hooo no. Dh and I both made minimum wage when we started out and we had two kids. He has a degree, but it's never come into play, and he got a Pell grant for that degree because no way could his parents or my parents afford college. We went a full year without pay when we started the business. We have lived years without insurance. We've had to live with our parents with kids and animals after we lost it all, and started from scratch.

 

We DO live in an area where if you work your rear off, it can pay off. We could not do what we do in Mississippi.

 

What you wrote is what I want for my kids, so they can get further than we have and keep this business we started.

 

When I graduated high school and had a baby, I was a single mom with no child support and homeless until a friend of a friend took us in and gave us a room to rent. I got certified in healthcare, and worked as a CNA for years. I lived paycheck to paycheck, but each job taught me more and more until I made it into a job that taught me enough to help when we started the business.

Edited April 11, 2012 by justamouse

[mytwomonkeys]

:iagree: In other posts similar to this one, I don't know how many times I've heard people say, "Well, I worked hard to get where I am!" They mean, of course, that they were born to well-off parents who put them in a good school that allowed them to get into a good university which their parents paid for, which then allowed them to get a good job that pays ten times what most other people make.

.

 

 

i'm sure that is true for some (including myself), but it was not true for my father. he was raised in a very low income family in scranton, PA. out of high school he could not afford college so he went into the air force. there, he received training that was able to get him in with IBM (this was back when military was seen as valuable to college education). he was able to climb the corporate ladder and get into higher management. he has since taken early retirement but still contracts out to work with banks. his fate is part being born in the USA, part luck, and what fueled it all was hard work, believing in himself, and persistence. not to mention, he's a heck of guy! what a smart man my dad is!:)

Edited April 11, 2012 by mytwomonkeys

[mommaduck]

(certified nurses aide with paid on the job training, and that was before she got her GED).

I tried getting into a CNA program in the midwest. They would only take those that were receiving aide and those that had dropped out of highschool. Because I had not dropped out and because I wasn't on public assistance, I was not allowed into a CNA program :glare: That's where those trying to make good choices still get shot in the foot. I understand that they have to limit how many are in the program, but that was a heck of a way to do it.

 

btw, my husband also went into the military...where they screwed up his knees in basic training and sent him home.

Edited April 11, 2012 by mommaduck

[Sneezyone]

Well, I've seen plenty of them CHOOSE to live on assistance and do nothing to improve their circumstances. Like finish high school (lots of free ways to do that around here), or be willing to accept the offers of about a dozen People have choices. They often make bad ones. I do not support the idea of a welfare state. Any pregnant teens in my family better get a decent job. In fact, I had a pregnant teen as a foster daughter in kinship care (which basically meant she lived with us but was peripherally related so we didn't get any stipend for her) and we MADE her get her GED (free) and MADE her find a decent agencies in my area to fund job training. Heck, the mothers might even consider going to <gasp> college. And please do not cry to me about how hard that would be....I put myself through college with two children as a single parent and received no child support, no help from my family and no government assistance. I actually had a minimum wage job and took out those evil student loans, but I had enough sense to major in an area that I had good reason to expect a decent job offer on graduation.

 

job (certified nurses aide with paid on the job training, and that was before she got her GED). With her nurses' aide certification she made as much money as a skilled manufacturing worker and was able to support herself and her daughter. Fast forward a few years and this kid even has started her own small business, hiring out home help workers to seniors who need assistance with basic care.

 

WHAT exactly would you have her do instead? Sit around for the next fifty or sixty years moaning about her undeserved fate and collecting a government check? That was apparently HER plan (she had and still has a lot of friends who have done just that).....but we did not permit her to do that. We had expectations and believed she DO something. Like, accept responsibility for her poor choices and get busy trying to make a life for herself. Wow, indeed.

 

I think individuals have many choices and can do many things to alter their circumstances, especially when there is family support and encouragement. It does not follow, however, that all or even most teen parents have the same support systems in place. It also goes without saying that a 16 yo's GED readiness and employment prospects will not be the same as a 13 yo's.

 

Were you aware, for example, that California has a two year wait for childcare assistance so that someone might be able to attend a GED prep class? Women/girls have to go on TANF, whether they really need or want the assistance in order to jump to the head of the childcare subsidy line. This is the advice social services freely gives.

 

I have read over and over again here and elsewhere the fears of some on this board regarding debt, especially student loans. Imagine how that might seem to someone who has never known any form of financing other than payday lenders, rent to own and pawn shops. It takes unbiased, not-for-profit education and mentorship to address those concerns and counsel folks on viable career choices and degree completion rates by school type (e.g. 4-year is far higher than 2-year). I'd also point out that those job training programs, student loans, and GED programs you cite (which I strongly support) are a) government-funded and b) being scaled back nationwide. That makes the cycle of poverty mre rather than less entrenched.

 

So what would I have someone do under those circumstances? Exactly what you advocated. I just know that the very programs you relied on to help yourself and your loved one are the very same programs being targeted by spending cutters gone wild.

 

ETA: Those of us with kids also can't help but notice that the cost of higher education has skyrocketed. Pell grants (which once covered all or most in-state tuition and fees) do not cover what they once did. Middle class buying power is not what it once was. In the old days when my mom used loans and work study to graduate, loans could be discharged through bankruptcy if your income did not support repayment. That is no longer true. The deck is stacked. The economy we live with is not set up to encourage or support individual upward mobility anymore. It was once. It's not now. Every recent study on the topic has shown as much. That doesn't mean that I think enterprising individuals can't get ahead. They can. But it's a heck of a lot less likely than at any time since the 1920's (and we know how that turned out). This set up is not sustainable.

Edited April 11, 2012 by Sneezyone
Oh bother...I can't type as fast as I think.

[Excelsior! Academy]

Honey, you live in Oklahoma. You have NO CLUE how freaking expensive it can be to live on the coasts...

 

Actually, my mother lives on the coast in southern CA so I have a little bit of an idea.

 

 

Eta: wasn't the original question about our own region? Yes, I did mention most places in my post. I did also mention that costs vary greatly. The question was could it be done. Obviously there are many factors at play.

 

 

I have friends and family across the country from CO to TN to VA. I do believe in a lot of circumstances it can be done. One person's version of modest is different from another. Dh and I married in college and lived completely off of his student loans. We lived in a rented trailer house. With no help from family. We moved in with parents until dh found a job. We started from scratch and in debt. We have worked ourselves out. Now granted, this was in OK, but that doesn't make me clueless about others across the country anymore than not having a teaching degree makes me clueless on how to teach my child Chemistry.

Edited April 11, 2012 by Excelsior! Academy

[Aspasia]

:iagree: In other posts similar to this one, I don't know how many times I've heard people say, "Well, I worked hard to get where I am!" They mean, of course, that they were born to well-off parents who put them in a good school that allowed them to get into a good university which their parents paid for, which then allowed them to get a good job that pays ten times what most other people make.

 

Honestly, if a person thinks that just getting through college for four years without failing is such hard work, they need to expand their worldview. All of us posting on this board, without exception, have been lucky beyond belief, just through the accident of birth in developed countries.

 

Obviously I'm not the first to take issue with this post, but here's my rebuttal. I was born into poverty and raised by a single mom (who worked two to three jobs at a time to stay off public assistance) in a home filled with abuse and neglect. I lived in a place where almost nobody went to college, my friend's sister was killed in a drive-by shooting a few houses away from me, and many of my peers dropped out by 8th grade.

 

I went on to graduate from a competitive university and marry a wonderful man who has worked his tail off to be where he is, in a competitive job that pays enough for us to survive in the DC area on one income. He came from an emotionally stable home but not a well-off one, and his parents certainly didn't do anything to put him in good schools or pay for his education.

 

So I take issue with this post. Am I grateful to live in the U.S.? Absolutely. I know I wouldn't have these opportunities in most parts of the world. But that doesn't change the fact that I HAVE worked my tail off. What was handed to me in life was NOT what you described, but like a pp said, it is definitely what I intend to give to my kids.

[Ipsey]

Not a chance

 

Here neither.

 

My husband is a Ph.D. research scientist at the local well-known university. We don't have cable, cell-phones, and rarely go on a date. Our two vehicles are at least 10 years old. We eat very simply. Our children share bedrooms, which is fine and the way we like it. We have no spare bedroom.

 

I work part-time to help keep us afloat and so we can save something for retirement. I'll probably start working full time next year.

 

Could a family make it on a one blue-collar job around here? No way.

 

ETA: our university is one of the only ones I'm aware of that doesn't offer tuition reduction to dependents of staff. We thought that would be a big benefit of coming here. Oops. They'll have to get mega-scholarships (we're already pushing them to that goal, even though they're 5th grade and younger!) or sell their souls to get through college.

Edited April 11, 2012 by Ipsey

[PeacefulChaos]

A lot of factory jobs are skilled. Same with construction.

 

Yeah. You definitely don't want some idiot building your house. Just saying. :rolleyes:

 

And this thread just feels like :banghead: - just like the other one. A whole lot of judging of everyone else's choices. Sigh... (I know, I should just not read... :) )

[mommaduck]

Yeah. You definitely don't want some idiot building your house. Just saying. :rolleyes:

 

And this thread just feels like :banghead: - just like the other one. A whole lot of judging of everyone else's choices. Sigh... (I know, I should just not read... :) )

Same here. It does nothing but tick me off. People act as though those that don't have a whole lot should be ashamed of the choices they made. No, I'm not. Getting married when and to whom I did was the right choice. Yes, he has rotten Irish luck. I don't regret a single one of my children. I don't regret being there for them as a mother. I know exactly what it's like to grow up with a mother that didn't want to be a mother and preferred her career over her children. My husband does not regret not taking a job that would take him away from his family most of the year. He grew up without his dad. He knows exactly how it affects the family not having dad around. It was a good decision though. We are the children of a generation where jobs were readily available and my husband's entire family is blue collar...so he had no reason to believe that jobs would disappear when we were younger. Blue collar made more than many white collar. It was a good decision for my husband's skills. He went into the military to give us a good start. Who would have predicted that the military would be changing things and not running in combat boots, but rather in unsupportive ked'like tennis shoes. Most of the guys in med hold were there due to shin splints and knee issues. Yep, he went in and got sent to med hold his fifth week because he collapsed...his knees could not hold him up. He's dealt with knee issues off and on since and has osteoarthritis...and the military doesn't help pay for that...that will be on our dollar. It was a good decision though. I didn't weigh enough to go into the military. Too skinny for my height and I was not able to put on weight for the life of me. We moved across country for a career. That worked fine till a jealous sibling decided to screw him over. It was a good decision though. He took a job at a plant where he had experience in the field. Paid well. The plant was not properly maintained by management and my husband was suffering from black mold poisoning. It was a good decision though and a good decision to quit or he would have been dead within ten years. He used every networked person he knew and got another job. Pay has gone down for this skill, but it's still a good decision, because it's a freakin' job, no poisoning, he's home every night, and we are surviving. We may not have any cushion, but we are making ends meet. So don't talk to me about making "good decisions" or how I need to be "more frugal". You have NO idea just how frugal we are.

[cdrumm4448]

:iagree: In other posts similar to this one, I don't know how many times I've heard people say, "Well, I worked hard to get where I am!" They mean, of course, that they were born to well-off parents who put them in a good school that allowed them to get into a good university which their parents paid for, which then allowed them to get a good job that pays ten times what most other people make.

 

Honestly, if a person thinks that just getting through college for four years without failing is such hard work, they need to expand their worldview. All of us posting on this board, without exception, have been lucky beyond belief, just through the accident of birth in developed countries.

 

I've said that, ("Well, I worked hard to get where I am.") because I have. My parents were very middle class (my father was a garbage man, my mother was a hairdresser). We had no food on several occasions when my father was laid off. We each paid for undergrad 50/50 with loans. I paid for grad school by working fulltime. My first job after undergrad graduation (I've worked since I was 15 years old) paid $18,000. I lived in my own apartment, paid my own bills, paid for my own wedding. We are doing well today because my husband works his tail off. We save more than anyone we know. We are lucky, to a certain extent, to be healthy, but that's also a product of eating well and living a healthy lifestyle.

 

I actually don't know anyone you've described, but I know plenty of people who've done what we've done. Maybe it's regional.

[Joanne]

I wonder why it is so hard to believe that some people actually made good choices that paid off?

 

Why do some people not WANT to believe that?

 

I get that ex

 

 

The same reason people don't want to believe that people can lead a clean, sober, hard working life and still be stuck at low income.

 

It challenges people'e worldview and can make people feel defensive about their experience.

[Tarreymere]

I think individuals have many choices and can do many things to alter their circumstances, especially when there is family support and encouragement. It does not follow, however, that all or even most teen parents have the same support systems in place. It also goes without saying that a 16 yo's GED readiness and employment prospects will not be the same as a 13 yo's.

 

Were you aware, for example, that California has a two year wait for childcare assistance so that someone might be able to attend a GED prep class? Women/girls have to go on TANF, whether they really need or want the assistance in order to jump to the head of the childcare subsidy line. This is the advice social services freely gives.

 

I have read over and over again here and elsewhere the fears of some on this board regarding debt, especially student loans. Imagine how that might seem to someone who has never known any form of financing other than payday lenders, rent to own and pawn shops. It takes unbiased, not-for-profit education and mentorship to address those concerns and counsel folks on viable career choices and degree completion rates by school type (e.g. 4-year is far higher than 2-year). I'd also point out that those job training programs, student loans, and GED programs you cite (which I strongly support) are a) government-funded and b) being scaled back nationwide. That makes the cycle of poverty mre rather than less entrenched.

 

So what would I have someone do under those circumstances? Exactly what you advocated. I just know that the very programs you relied on to help yourself and your loved one are the very same programs being targeted by spending cutters gone wild.

 

ETA: Those of us with kids also can't help but notice that the cost of higher education has skyrocketed. Pell grants (which once covered all or most in-state tuition and fees) do not cover what they once did. Middle class buying power is not what it once was. In the old days when my mom used loans and work study to graduate, loans could be discharged through bankruptcy if your income did not support repayment. That is no longer true. The deck is stacked. The economy we live with is not set up to encourage or support individual upward mobility anymore. It was once. It's not now. Every recent study on the topic has shown as much. That doesn't mean that I think enterprising individuals can't get ahead. They can. But it's a heck of a lot less likely than at any time since the 1920's (and we know how that turned out). This set up is not sustainable.

 

I don't live in California. The question was asked about the area each of us lived in, and these programs are what exist in my area. Free and without waiting lists. There is more than one free GED program available with no waiting, several local nursing homes offer paid nurses aide training once a year or so, and there are grants for training in CNC and machining specialties with local companies looking to hire on graduation. The private college in town offers scholarships to single parents who are local. A state university thirty minutes away runs a bus back and forth between their campus and my town several times a day and has a small satellite campus in town. They offer sessions on applying for college and financial aid regularly. There is no community college, but the local vo-tech has an LPN program and other programs for adults. The local job service is the place to go to find out more about any of these.

 

There are a number of local low income housing complexes with a few months wait for a two bedroom but usually no wait for a three bedroom. The local women's shelter will give grants to victims of domestic violence to pay for a deposit and first months rent on an apartment and will provide transportation for a short time and toiletries. There is a furniture closet that will provide furniture and things like blankets, pots and pans, and curtains to people in need. No wait list for these, either.

 

Transportation vouchers are available for the bus service in town, and there is some kind of program in which single parents can get up to a thousand dollars towards a private vehicle. Disabled people can get free shuttle service just about anywhere. Free cell phones are available to people with income below a certain level. There is a daily soup kitchen, a free medical clinic for working people who don't have insurance but don't qualify for medical assistance, and several food pantries. My own church ended up tossing a roomful of perfectly fine clothing that they offered free to the community but were never used, and we still have boxes of children's winter coats, hats, and scarves that we tried to give away to the local elementary schools. We have shelves of canned goods that weren't wanted either.

 

Social services saved a ton of money in my area by requiring cash assistance recipients who were not employed to come at 9 am three days a week to a 'job preparation' class (with childcare and transportation provided) every week until they found a job. Surprisingly, many people just stopped applying for cash assistance......:glare:. Food stamps remain popular, WIC is available too.

 

There is at times a few months wait for subsidized child care around here, but that is it. Even weatherization only has about a six month wait. The 'worst' problem is that heating assistance is pretty limited and since we are in Pa it is an important thing.

 

People have it good here. I don't mind paying taxes to support these kind of programs. I think it is a great idea to help people out with education, food, housing, transportation and child care. We've volunteered at a few of these places.

 

What depresses and discourages me is the culture of entitlement that has developed around here. People have so many opportunities offered to them but they don't want to take any of them. It is very frustrating. I personally know more than a few young single moms through my daughters that are perfectly content with a subsidized apartment, budget billing for electric, food stamps, WIC and if they are lucky a car or a little cash from family or from a series of parasite 'boyfriends' (who may or may not work part time and who may or may not sell drugs and who live with these girls for free housing and food). Some of these girls will work part time but none are interested in living any other way or in doing anything different. It makes me :banghead: . Especially since I am also personally seeing it hit the third generation. You are right, it isn't sustainable and this is not a wealthy area. But at least here the problem is that people won't take the opportunities they are offered and not that there are limited opportunities. This is what I'm seeing, in my little corner of the US.

Edited April 12, 2012 by Rainefox

[justamouse]

The avenues for help around me are like that of Rainefox. I mean, the help available is *astounding*. Free classes all the time (my GF took a free computer class and got a job at a senior living community for great pay), free clothes, free food, and it's all community driven. We have a an extensive group that teaches reading, a county wide bus system, community vegetable gardens for the soup kitchens. And, much of them require no proof of income.

 

It was *not* like that when I needed help, but I am so glad it's there for people now.

[Hannah C.]

Depends on what you mean by blue collar. My husband is a (technically part-time, but in reality sometimes overtime) waiter at a busy restaurant in a business area and made about $25k last year. The upside is that this is more than other full-time jobs would make, if you could even find a full-time job. The downside of waiting is that it's luck of the draw, but generally the draw has been good enough for us to live on just his income. However, DD doesn't cost much right now. It would be rather difficult to support two school-age kids and ourselves on the money he makes. It would be possible to do it on less, but you would be *BARELY* scraping by and might have to rely on charity/government programs for some things so that you could pay for other things like school materials.

 

I don't know how much the factories around here pay. And of course, skilled blue-collar workers (carpenters/plumbers/electricians/etc) probably make wages sufficient to comfortably support a family of four. It really depends and I think there is likely a wide range.

Edited April 12, 2012 by Hannah C.

[mommaduck]

Depends on what you mean by blue collar. My husband is a (technically part-time, but in reality sometimes overtime) waiter at a busy restaurant in a business area and made about $25k last year. The upside is that this is more than other full-time jobs would make, if you could even find a full-time job. The downside of waiting is that it's luck of the draw, but generally the draw has been good enough for us to live on just his income. However, DD doesn't cost much right now. It would be rather difficult to support two school-age kids and ourselves on the money he makes. It would be possible to do it on less, but you would be *BARELY* scraping by and might have to rely on charity/government programs for some things so that you could pay for other things like school materials.

 

I don't know how much the factories around here pay. And of course, skilled blue-collar workers (carpenters/plumbers/electricians/etc) probably make wages sufficient to comfortably support a family of four. It really depends and I think there is likely a wide range.

The problem is when there are companies that are paying truck drivers and delivery drivers only $25k. These used to be decent paying jobs.

[jennynd]

:iagree: In other posts similar to this one, I don't know how many times I've heard people say, "Well, I worked hard to get where I am!" They mean, of course, that they were born to well-off parents who put them in a good school that allowed them to get into a good university which their parents paid for, which then allowed them to get a good job that pays ten times what most other people make.

 

Honestly, if a person thinks that just getting through college for four years without failing is such hard work, they need to expand their worldview. All of us posting on this board, without exception, have been lucky beyond belief, just through the accident of birth in developed countries.

 

My Dad is a teacher Mom is SAHM. Husband's Mom is a single Mom raised 3 children.

Hubby and I both put ourselves through college through scholarship. I have never paid a dime for my education and hubby actually get paid through PhD program.

No, both of us are not born rich and both us are doing quite well

 

I also knew few people grow up in project housing and end up with a PhD and are more than successful.

 

I am sorry but when I hear people make comments like people who get good education must from good family, I feel those are bunch of BS.

Edited April 12, 2012 by jennynd

[Georgiana Daniels]

Not here. Our town is nicknamed "Poverty with a View."

 

The only reason we make it on one blue-collar job is because A. My husband's bc job is commission, and he works 12-14 hours a day, often 6 days a week. B. We don't live modestly, we live humbly. Very.

[mommaduck]

Have you run the numbers? When the cost of fuel goes up as dramatically as it has in the last few years, it's a little hard to sustain high wages unless the business is generating a lot of profit. I had a friend start a short haul trucking co a few years back. He had no trouble finding loads, but the repair costs plus fuel made it hard to break even, much less give raises. He figured he'd be better off with a frozen food delivery truck route, or getting on with the post office or school district if he really felt driving was his calling.

I understand about costs. However, a truck driver should not be making the same as a waiter. Quite a few of these companies are not small and some are cross country. A class B should make more than a regular driver and a class A should make more than either. A class A driver should not be going across country for $25k.

Edited April 12, 2012 by mommaduck

[justamouse]

I understand about costs. However, a truck driver should not be making the same as a waiter.

 

No, they shouldn't. But right now, the cost of gas has doubled in the last four years and that truck being on the road is costing twice as much as it did--which means that that $ has to be absorbed somewhere.

 

All of the costs of our raw materials have gone up because gas has gone up. Everything from bottles, to seals, to ingredients are costing more to be produced.

 

Believe me, most bosses I know DO know -it's just that no one can afford it. It has to come from somewhere. We've been breaking even because our cost of manufacturing has gone through the roof.

 

And, a waiter where? A waiter in a fantastic restaurant here will make you a living wage. I have been astounded at how the restaurant's parking lots are packed many nights of the week, here (not Dh and I, we never go out to eat).

Edited April 12, 2012 by justamouse