I must vent...and cry a bit

[mumto2]

:grouphug:What does your dad think?

[Nakia]

Is it possible that Scott is very hurt/insulted that Patrick could possibly think that he would ever hurt you? You have said that Scott has never been aggressive or verbally violent to you before. Perhaps, because he had been in combat so recently he did not and still does not, realize that there was something very aggressive in his manner that triggered Scott's protective instincts. So now, to him, here is a life-long friend/brother who thinks that he is capable of turning violent. Perhaps it made him doubt himself and his ability to maintain control.

 

Also, could Patrick's reaction have been more aggressive than usual because Scott had so recently been in a combat zone and Patrick was (and maybe still is) concerned that Scott cannot control his anger and may become violent with little provocation?

 

Good questions. I wish they would sit down and talk about these very things. Maybe they will. It could be any one or many of these things.

[Aelwydd]

I read your posts. You have minimized/ignored your husband's lack of maturity and repeatedly focused on your brother's. You can't reasonably expect this situation to go away. Your husband assaulted your brother, and this probably won't be resolved until he "grows up" a bit as well.

 

Chocolate, we're all reading this second-hand, but I really think that this statement is an overly simplistic interpretation of events. If someone is normally a very easy-going person, reads a situation to be extreme enough to warrant a physical reaction, "immaturity" is not the conclusion I'd jump to. Nakia has shared that her husband felt she was in imminent physical danger. What does maturity have to do with seeking to protect one's spouse?

 

I don't think maturity has anything to do with this situation at all. I think it has to do with introducing a traumatized individual into a highly volatile situation, in terms of triggers (blood, death, high emotion, chaotic activity).

 

I tend to think that Patrick, who has known Scott since he was 5 years old, would be a better judge of what is normal and what is truly aberrant, than outsiders like you and I. Why should he be punished, by being scolded as being immature, for immediately stepping forward to protect his wife? He didn't do anything inappropriate in my opinion. He didn't beat him up. He didn't try to kill him, or something truly crazy like that. He used just enough force to knock Scott out of his zone.

 

Like I said, we may be socialized to ignore instincts, but when a truly dangerous situation presents itself, you rarely go wrong by listening to them. That's not a maturity issue, that's a survival issue.

[catz]

:grouphug:What does your dad think?

 

This is a great question since he broke up the fight and knows both men well. And he is a man for that matter. Have you talked to your father about it?

[QueenCat]

:grouphug:Nakia:grouphug:

[Nakia]

I read your posts. You have minimized/ignored your husband's lack of maturity and repeatedly focused on your brother's. You can't reasonably expect this situation to go away. Your husband assaulted your brother, and this probably won't be resolved until he "grows up" a bit as well.

 

I feel like you've misunderstood, but that's okay. You're entitled to your thoughts and opinions.

 

:grouphug:What does your dad think?

 

He's actually my step-dad, but he raised me. He is Scott's father, making Scott and me half-siblings, technically. To answer your question, I really have no idea. He is the kind of person to sweep things under the rug and just let them go. That's how most things are handled in my family, unfortunately. GRRR!! And truly, he's probably just mostly forgotten about it. I don't feel comfortable asking him either because I'd rather talk to Scott directly, kwim? I don't want him to think I'm going behind his back.

[Trilliums]

 

He's actually my step-dad, but he raised me. He is Scott's father, making Scott and me half-siblings, technically. To answer your question, I really have no idea. He is the kind of person to sweep things under the rug and just let them go. That's how most things are handled in my family, unfortunately. GRRR!! And truly, he's probably just mostly forgotten about it. I don't feel comfortable asking him either because I'd rather talk to Scott directly, kwim? I don't want him to think I'm going behind his back.

 

maybe he would be a good person to act as a mediator.

 

I think all parties acted beyond what the situation called for. In you original post you said your reaction was beyond normal. Sounds as though both men need to recognize this in themselves as well.

[Audrey]

I think you have two men who both over-reacted to a situation. If I understand correctly, your brother will not accept an apology from your dh.

 

In that case, I think you have to make the move with your brother. It might be easiest in a letter, but IMO face-to-face is always more honest. I would not try to apologize for your dh, though. That is for him to do himself someday. You just need to talk to your brother and tell him how you feel about not having him in your life right now. It really doesn't matter anymore whose "fault" the incident was. That is over and done and cannot be undone. It only matters that you want him in your life. Focus on that. Be honest. Then, wait for him to accept you. But, be prepared if he doesn't. Know that you've opened your heart with honesty and give the other person the space to make their move, too.

 

Sometimes family is hard. :grouphug:

[elegantlion]

I agree you are one of the sweetest people on these boards!

 

How would you feel about Patrick reading this thread? I bet he hasn't even considered these things, about PTSD, needing time to adjust, all of the noise and action being too overwhelming...............

 

I agree, with both. I adore, my dear, and I'm sure my spouse would have responded in a similar manner. However, it sounds like the event was too much for your brother and he didn't have the ability to check himself.

 

If there is going to be resolution, your dh may have to make the step. An apology, even if he doesn't think one is necessary, could open the door to discuss the situation.

 

If you view this from brother's perspective, he's come home early, he's out of the war zone, and then chaos happens and before he knows it, he's slammed into a wall. Not quite the homecoming he pictured, probably.

 

If Patrick has been the elder in the relationship he may be the one to make the step, I know I said that already.:tongue_smilie: I would ask my dh to apologize so there possibly be reconciliation. If need be, then you be the one to start the conversation.

 

For my own conscience, I'd have to have the air cleared. Many people lose their tempers. It's harder to move through the fallout. I would not do this in haste, I would take the time it needs, but I would address it. :grouphug::grouphug::grouphug:

[Rosie_0801]

Maybe the guys need to be fed ideas they could apologise for without losing too much face. Perhaps they could apologise for scaring each other? They'd have to converse in order to deny being scared, wouldn't they? ;) Could that clear the air a bit?

 

I wouldn't have a clue. I've only been in such a situation once and my menfolk sat there and stared.

 

 

:grouphug:

Rosie

[TammyinTN]

:grouphug: I so agree...families are hard to deal with at times.

[Peaceful Isle]

I am so sorry :( In this, I'm sure you feel helpless.

I can say that I do understand what it feels like to have estranged family members, and it really does feel helpless.

Your husband was defending his wife, and a lot of times, we act a little more rash when emotions are high. We are only human. Just keep praying that the Lord would bring the two men you love back together in time. Hugs to you! :grouphug:

[katiejane]

Warning: Extremely long, possibly confusing (I've been up for about 36 hours), and guaranteed grammatical errors.

 

Back story: I have two brothers, both younger than me. I have always been very very close to both of them. The "baby" is 10 years younger than me, and his name is Scott. He has always been a little cocky and a little spoiled (baby out of 5 kids). He is a police officer and in the military. My husband and I started dating when Scott was 5, so Scott doesn't really remember not having Patrick in his life. They used to be real buddies, going fishing, playing sports, etc. Then Scott "grew up," got busy, and their relationship changed. But they've still always been close. And my girls ADORE Scott.

 

So last March at Emma's 8th birthday party, there was a...problem. We had gotten 4 little baby chicks that week, and one of our dogs killed one while the party was going on, right in front of the guests. Things got hectic, and there were like 6 crying kids, and it was just bad and stressful. Scott had been only home for a week from a 10 month tour in Afghanistan. At one point, Scott yelled for me to calm down. And I told him to shut up, which was way out of character for me and out of line, I admit. At that point, Scott got up in my face, pointed at me, and screamed, "F*ck you!" Well, Patrick (my husband) did not handle that well at all. Let me tell you Patrick is the most laid-back, easy-going guy you could ever meet, but he didn't react well to my brother treating me that way. He grabbed Scott and slammed him up against the wall. They had a few words, and my dad broke them up before they exchanged any punches, thank God. It was really bad. I was pretty hysterical by that point. Scott left, Patrick calmed down, and things sort of settled. About a month later, I went to Scott's house, he told me that he loved me, and we hugged but never really talked about it. He's not a big talker, and I didn't want to push it.

 

Okay, so that was all a year ago. Scott didn't come to Anna's birthday party in August or Cora's in December. His wife came to the parties, and I actually just assumed Scott was working. At Christmas, when he and Patrick saw each other for the first time since the incident (9 months later) Scott walked out of the room when we walked in. He would not acknowledge Patrick at all. Patrick tried to talk to him, but Scott refused to speak to him. It was awkward! Patrick didn't let it bother him. It takes a lot to upset him. But I was really upset.

 

This brings me to today, Emma's 9th birthday. We had a party this afternoon. Keep in mind that all this time, I have assumed that Scott was working so he had to miss the other girls' parties. His wife showed up, and I asked point blank if Scott was working. She said, "No, he's just hanging out at the house." I felt like I had been kicked in the guts. Seriously. I can't believe as close as we've always been, how much my girls love him, and the fact that we made up, that he STILL refuses to let this go. I'm betting he wasn't working when we had the other girls' parties either. Before all of this happened, the only time he had missed one of my girls' parties was when he was in Afghanistan. I know, without a shadow of doubt, that he "has no use" for Patrick. I've heard him say that about a lot of people. Like I said, he is cocky.

 

Please do not bash my husband. Patrick believes he did the right thing. He truly felt Scott was a danger to me. He has said he will not apologize to Scott, so that's not an option. I guess it will just be this way, but it hurts me for my kids. If I confront him, he will probably blow up, and then it will start all over again. I know he was in a hard place, having just been in the middle of a combat zone, but he has to know he was wrong. Right? He has a wife, and I know he would never tolerate another man speaking to her that way. It almost makes me question how he speaks to her though. :(

 

I just feel sad. For my kids, for my brother who is missing out on their lives, for me. I miss my brother. When I see him at my mom's or out in town, he acts totally normal. I think he has truly just written Patrick off and is holding tight to this grudge. The thing is that the person Scott is angry with is not suffering because of his actions. "Suffering" isn't the right word, but you know what I mean.

 

:crying:

 

ETA: Typing all this out really helped. Maybe it's best if my brother is not part of our lives right now. I pray he grows up soon.

 

I am so sorry this happened to you. :grouphug:

 

Is it possible your Brother suffers from PTSD? My Dh has it and before treatment saw any "confrontation" as a person attack and over reacted dramatically. Yelling and commotion like you described would definitely have triggered my Dh. Dh also held major grudges if he perceived people were "against" him. He was not like this at all before PTSD. Maybe you could do a bit of reading about PTSD. PTSD for Dummies is a pretty good source of information. There is a lot of shame and embarrassment felt by sufferers and often symptoms are ignored or minimised. My Dh did not get help for over 6 years and it is not something that goes away without proper treatment.

[katiejane]

Wow.

 

Classic PTSD.

 

Classic.

 

There's no doubt in my mind whatsoever that your brother's reaction to you was sheer PTSD. He'd been home a week? It takes a long, LONG time to mentally adjust to being out of a war zone.

 

When my DH returned from Iraq, I made the mistake of asking him to come to the commissary with me the next day to grab a few items. (After all, I had been a long time without him, and I wanted him near me!) Big mistake. After being there for about five minutes, he went into a full blown anxiety attack, and we had to immediately leave the place. I tell you this because it's seemingly innocent things that can trigger the PTSD. If my DH reacted that way at the commissary where nothing significant was going on, I can imagine that seeing blood, death, chaos, crying kids... well, I can imagine that something in his head went "SNAP!"

 

:grouphug: PTSD is pretty hard on us partners. I hope your Dh is doing ok now.

[Nakia]

Wow.

 

Classic PTSD.

 

Classic.

 

There's no doubt in my mind whatsoever that your brother's reaction to you was sheer PTSD. He'd been home a week? It takes a long, LONG time to mentally adjust to being out of a war zone.

 

When my DH returned from Iraq, I made the mistake of asking him to come to the commissary with me the next day to grab a few items. (After all, I had been a long time without him, and I wanted him near me!) Big mistake. After being there for about five minutes, he went into a full blown anxiety attack, and we had to immediately leave the place. I tell you this because it's seemingly innocent things that can trigger the PTSD. If my DH reacted that way at the commissary where nothing significant was going on, I can imagine that seeing blood, death, chaos, crying kids... well, I can imagine that something in his head went "SNAP!"

 

Thank you for sharing. I'm sorry for what your husband, and you, have been through. :grouphug:

[RanchGirl]

First of all, I don't see a whole lot of difference between shut up and fy. Between siblings, in a loud, stressful situation, there was ugly behavior on both sides No judgment, but it sounds like it would have ended there had your husband not gotten involved.

 

I would expect a husband to protect his wife, maybe by getting between his wife and imminent danger. I can see "hey let's cool it", or "there are kids here, watch the language". But to start a violent physical altercation by slamming a man up against the wall seems way overdone.

 

To deal with that the first week home, in front of his family, from someone he presumably looked up to, must have been very difficult for your brother. I think for him to have not struck back against your dh and merely keep his distance is really admirable.

 

Like you, I wouldn't keep nagging dh because as you have mentioned, it's neither desirable nor effective. But I also think it's unfair to put all the responsibility for resolution on your brother... which is how I would take the "we miss you", we just want you to come back to us kind of comments. You're telling him that this is a problem he should fix, when IMO the only way to fix it would be for your husband, the instigator of the physical attack, to apologize.

 

Since you said your dh won't apologize, I would just accept that your brother isn't going to be involved in your family activities and pursue other options to maintain a relationship with him. Meet up with him for lunch, that kind of thing. Show him he's important to you by wanting to get to know him, not expecting him to hang out with a group that includes a guy who (a) phsyically attacked him and (b) refuses to apologize.

 

BTW, although the PTSD concern may be valid, I don't know that you're the right person to bring it up, at least not right now. The implication would be that if he's not fine with being attacked by your husband, he must have a disorder. (I know that's not how you mean it.)

[Harriet Vane]

First of all, I don't see a whole lot of difference between shut up and fy. Between siblings, in a loud, stressful situation, there was ugly behavior on both sides No judgment, but it sounds like it would have ended there had your husband not gotten involved.

 

I would expect a husband to protect his wife, maybe by getting between his wife and imminent danger. I can see "hey let's cool it", or "there are kids here, watch the language". But to start a violent physical altercation by slamming a man up against the wall seems way overdone.

 

To deal with that the first week home, in front of his family, from someone he presumably looked up to, must have been very difficult for your brother. I think for him to have not struck back against your dh and merely keep his distance is really admirable.

 

Like you, I wouldn't keep nagging dh because as you have mentioned, it's neither desirable nor effective. But I also think it's unfair to put all the responsibility for resolution on your brother... which is how I would take the "we miss you", we just want you to come back to us kind of comments. You're telling him that this is a problem he should fix, when IMO the only way to fix it would be for your husband, the instigator of the physical attack, to apologize.

 

Since you said your dh won't apologize, I would just accept that your brother isn't going to be involved in your family activities and pursue other options to maintain a relationship with him. Meet up with him for lunch, that kind of thing. Show him he's important to you by wanting to get to know him, not expecting him to hang out with a group that includes a guy who (a) phsyically attacked him and (b) refuses to apologize.

 

BTW, although the PTSD concern may be valid, I don't know that you're the right person to bring it up, at least not right now. The implication would be that if he's not fine with being attacked by your husband, he must have a disorder. (I know that's not how you mean it.)

 

:iagree: Well said.

[Guest submarines]

First of all, I don't see a whole lot of difference between shut up and fy. Between siblings, in a loud, stressful situation, there was ugly behavior on both sides No judgment, but it sounds like it would have ended there had your husband not gotten involved.

 

I would expect a husband to protect his wife, maybe by getting between his wife and imminent danger. I can see "hey let's cool it", or "there are kids here, watch the language". But to start a violent physical altercation by slamming a man up against the wall seems way overdone.

 

To deal with that the first week home, in front of his family, from someone he presumably looked up to, must have been very difficult for your brother. I think for him to have not struck back against your dh and merely keep his distance is really admirable.

 

Like you, I wouldn't keep nagging dh because as you have mentioned, it's neither desirable nor effective. But I also think it's unfair to put all the responsibility for resolution on your brother... which is how I would take the "we miss you", we just want you to come back to us kind of comments. You're telling him that this is a problem he should fix, when IMO the only way to fix it would be for your husband, the instigator of the physical attack, to apologize.

 

Since you said your dh won't apologize, I would just accept that your brother isn't going to be involved in your family activities and pursue other options to maintain a relationship with him. Meet up with him for lunch, that kind of thing. Show him he's important to you by wanting to get to know him, not expecting him to hang out with a group that includes a guy who (a) phsyically attacked him and (b) refuses to apologize.

 

BTW, although the PTSD concern may be valid, I don't know that you're the right person to bring it up, at least not right now. The implication would be that if he's not fine with being attacked by your husband, he must have a disorder. (I know that's not how you mean it.)

 

 

:iagree:I especially agree with the first paragraph. I don't know how it is in the army, but I know that in certain male cultures, even if they are educated and seemingly "refined" men, the F-word is common. When DH was working in a law office, 14 hour days, he'd come home exhausted, mentally and physically, and the F-word was turning in almost every sentence. Which was so not like him, but this is how the other lawyers talked to each other, and when he was basically on autopilot, this was how he started talking at home. He didn't even mean to swear.

 

It took a while for him to get rid of the habit.

 

A "F-u" response to "Shut up", in the situation described, wouldn't seem to me like a big deal. OP, were you threatened by your brother? Or just in shock that he would use this word and tone?

 

The party situation, in my view, was so horrific prior to the incident, that I wouldn't be blaming anyone. Everyone over-reacted, but most people would. I think the DH over-reacted the most, but he was probably the one stressing out the most, as men usually feel responsible for keeping everything in order. And his DD's birthday party was turning into a bloody spectacle.

 

I think it is time to step back and just get over it. It was situation-specific.

 

:grouphug:

[snickelfritz]

First of all, I don't see a whole lot of difference between shut up and fy. Between siblings, in a loud, stressful situation, there was ugly behavior on both sides No judgment, but it sounds like it would have ended there had your husband not gotten involved.

 

I would expect a husband to protect his wife, maybe by getting between his wife and imminent danger. I can see "hey let's cool it", or "there are kids here, watch the language". But to start a violent physical altercation by slamming a man up against the wall seems way overdone.

 

To deal with that the first week home, in front of his family, from someone he presumably looked up to, must have been very difficult for your brother. I think for him to have not struck back against your dh and merely keep his distance is really admirable.

 

Like you, I wouldn't keep nagging dh because as you have mentioned, it's neither desirable nor effective. But I also think it's unfair to put all the responsibility for resolution on your brother... which is how I would take the "we miss you", we just want you to come back to us kind of comments. You're telling him that this is a problem he should fix, when IMO the only way to fix it would be for your husband, the instigator of the physical attack, to apologize.

 

Since you said your dh won't apologize, I would just accept that your brother isn't going to be involved in your family activities and pursue other options to maintain a relationship with him. Meet up with him for lunch, that kind of thing. Show him he's important to you by wanting to get to know him, not expecting him to hang out with a group that includes a guy who (a) phsyically attacked him and (b) refuses to apologize.

 

BTW, although the PTSD concern may be valid, I don't know that you're the right person to bring it up, at least not right now. The implication would be that if he's not fine with being attacked by your husband, he must have a disorder. (I know that's not how you mean it.)

 

:iagree:

I think you may need to focus on a relationship with him when your dh isn't around.

[ChristineW]

First of all, I don't see a whole lot of difference between shut up and fy. Between siblings, in a loud, stressful situation, there was ugly behavior on both sides No judgment, but it sounds like it would have ended there had your husband not gotten involved.

 

I would expect a husband to protect his wife, maybe by getting between his wife and imminent danger. I can see "hey let's cool it", or "there are kids here, watch the language". But to start a violent physical altercation by slamming a man up against the wall seems way overdone.

 

To deal with that the first week home, in front of his family, from someone he presumably looked up to, must have been very difficult for your brother. I think for him to have not struck back against your dh and merely keep his distance is really admirable.

 

Like you, I wouldn't keep nagging dh because as you have mentioned, it's neither desirable nor effective. But I also think it's unfair to put all the responsibility for resolution on your brother... which is how I would take the "we miss you", we just want you to come back to us kind of comments. You're telling him that this is a problem he should fix, when IMO the only way to fix it would be for your husband, the instigator of the physical attack, to apologize.

 

Since you said your dh won't apologize, I would just accept that your brother isn't going to be involved in your family activities and pursue other options to maintain a relationship with him. Meet up with him for lunch, that kind of thing. Show him he's important to you by wanting to get to know him, not expecting him to hang out with a group that includes a guy who (a) phsyically attacked him and (b) refuses to apologize.

 

BTW, although the PTSD concern may be valid, I don't know that you're the right person to bring it up, at least not right now. The implication would be that if he's not fine with being attacked by your husband, he must have a disorder. (I know that's not how you mean it.)

 

 

:iagree: :grouphug::grouphug: I am sorry that you are in the middle of this.

 

Christine

[Denisemomof4]

I read your posts. You have minimized/ignored your husband's lack of maturity and repeatedly focused on your brother's. You can't reasonably expect this situation to go away. Your husband assaulted your brother, and this probably won't be resolved until he "grows up" a bit as well.

 

Wow. I completely disagree that she has minimized and/or ignored Patrick in this situation.

 

nakia: :grouphug::grouphug::grouphug:

[ChocolateReignRemix]

Wow. I completely disagree that she has minimized and/or ignored Patrick in this situation.

 

nakia: :grouphug::grouphug::grouphug:

 

She did. She refers to her brother as "spoiled" and says he needs to "grow up." I can't quote her original post (on my phone), but in the paragraph where she discusses Patrick and says he should not be bashed, she asks why her brother can't see that he was in the wrong. The blame for the incident and aftermath is consistently thrown on to her brother and her husband's violent behavior is dismissed. If Nakia can't see how this attitude helps drive the wedge between her brother and her family, then there is little chance of ever resolving it.

[In the Rain]

:grouphug: I have no experience with any of this, but I am sorry for your hurt. :grouphug: I hope Scott and Patrick can work it out.

[LibraryLover]

If Partrick coulds see it wasn't about *him* but about the commotion, perhpas he could find a place in his heart to talk with your brother and say something like, "It must have been crazy to come home from Afganistahn to a wild party and be around all that drama. I'm sorry I pushed you, man. I went into protection mode over my Nakia. I know sibs fight sometimes. I know you love each other, and I know she misses you. I'm cool with you. I hope you're cool with me."

 

Or however guys talk. :D

Edited March 19, 2012 by LibraryLover

[Coffeetime]

I read your posts. You have minimized/ignored your husband's lack of maturity and repeatedly focused on your brother's. You can't reasonably expect this situation to go away. Your husband assaulted your brother, and this probably won't be resolved until he "grows up" a bit as well.

 

I have to disagree with this. Nakia said that Scott didn't just scream at her, he got in her face. That's a pretty aggressive act and I believe her dh probably felt that she was in imminent physical danger.

 

I agree, with both. I adore, my dear, and I'm sure my spouse would have responded in a similar manner. However, it sounds like the event was too much for your brother and he didn't have the ability to check himself.

 

If there is going to be resolution, your dh may have to make the step. An apology, even if he doesn't think one is necessary, could open the door to discuss the situation.

 

If you view this from brother's perspective, he's come home early, he's out of the war zone, and then chaos happens and before he knows it, he's slammed into a wall. Not quite the homecoming he pictured, probably.

 

If Patrick has been the elder in the relationship he may be the one to make the step, I know I said that already.:tongue_smilie: I would ask my dh to apologize so there possibly be reconciliation. If need be, then you be the one to start the conversation.

 

For my own conscience, I'd have to have the air cleared. Many people lose their tempers. It's harder to move through the fallout. I would not do this in haste, I would take the time it needs, but I would address it. :grouphug::grouphug::grouphug:

 

:iagree: with this completely.

[Coffeetime]

If Partrick coulds see it wasn't about *him* but about the commotion, perhpas he could find a place in his heart to talk with your brother and say something like, "It must have been crazy to come home from Afganistahn to a wild party and be around all that drama. I'm sorry I pushed you, man. I went into protection mode over my Nakia. I know sibs fight sometimes. I know you love each other, and I know she misses you. I'm cool with you. I hope you're cool with me."

 

Or however guys talk. :D

 

:iagree: This is good. ;)

[Nakia]

I know you said your dh won't apologgize, and I am not saying your brother was right at all, although siblings argue and that wouldn't be a hill that would seem insurmountable to me. What I am saying is that if Patrick is the man you say he is, he could try ad reach out to your brother, in a guy way, espescially since Patrick knows your brother had just come back from *war* and into a stressful situation of crying kids and a bloody chicken. If Partrick coulds see it wasn't about *him* but about the commotion, perhpas he could find a place in his heart to talk with your brother and say something like, "It must have been crazy to come home from Afganistahn to a wild party and be around all that drama. I'm sorry I pushed you, man. I went into protection mode over my Nakia. I know sibs fight sometimes. I know you love each other, and I know she misses you. I'm cool with you. I hope you're cool with me."

 

Or however guys talk. :D

 

I do hope this is what will happen. I really do.

[Nakia]

I'm going to try to say this one more time. I do not condone my husband's behavior. We are not violent people. I understand my brother was in a bad situation and very likely suffering from PTSD. I am incredibly sad and wish this had never happened. My husband felt like I was in true danger, and I probably was even though, at the time, I really only felt shock and confusion. My husband doesn't go around fighting people or starting trouble. The reason I pointed out that my brother is spoiled and has some growing up to do was just to give background. Maybe I should have left that out so as not to paint him in a bad light.

 

ChocolateReigns, I know you haven't been around here very long so you may not know this, but the hive can come down pretty hard on husbands. And when that happens, threads get shut down. That's why I asked that my husband not be bashed. FTR, I didn't want my brother bashed either. Thankfully I don't feel like anyone has bashed either of them. I truly wanted insight, and I feel like I have received that.

 

Like someone else said, it's too late to place blame or fault. It's time to heal. I'm praying that happens sooner than later.

[cajunrose]

Your brother was out of line...period. A very, very similar thing happened in my family. I have an uncle that always got 'a little too friendly' with me growing up. He never hurt me, but it was enough to make me uncomfortable my whole life. As I aged, I learned to handle him. When my daughter turned around 3 years old, he started getting 'a little too friendly' with her. I watched closely. It was always when he was drunk..so I kept her away in those times. One night, I got very uncomfortable. I mentioned it to my husband...that I couldn't let my daughter around him anymore because it was harder and harder to control the situation. The next time my uncle was in town, my husband quietly made an exit from my house and went to his....he had him up against the wall in a choke hold and I have no doubt he would have killed him had somebody not walked around the corner. They had words, my uncle got cocky, my dad took my husband off of my uncle (his brother) just as he was issuing the first blow. It got ugly..and rightly so. I say this all to you because now my husband and my uncle are on speaking terms again but it took about 2 years. Not to mention, the most he does with my daughter and I now are quick hugs. Nothing uncomfortable at all...

 

Something comes out in some men when those they love are threatened or hurt. I don't think what your husband did was wrong. The words your brother used were threatening and confrontational and uncalled for. My dad has done the SAME thing when those words were said to my mom. Sometimes a 'slap in the face' is needed. I'm guessing your brother is embarrassed at how he spoke to you. I hope that you can patch things up with him soon. I think you need to get the two men together and have a face to face with both of them.

[Mrs Mungo]

I just don't agree that your husband needs to do any apologizing at ALL. He used violence appropriately. It was ugly, it was scary but just.

 

Does it matter if anyone but Scott feels like Patrick needs to apologize? I don't think it does matter. Sometimes you apologize to help the situation, even when you do not feel that you were in the wrong.

 

 

I'm going to sort of address a bunch of these posts at once, but mostly leave them below instead of addressing them individually.

 

PTSD is a medical diagnosis. Soldiers can experience mild trauma and need time to readjust to the civilian world, even if they do not have PTSD. Anxiety and a sort of...contempt for the civilian world (which I will try to explain better, below?) are extremely common among newly returned soldiers, even those without PTSD. I agree with LibraryLover, Kinsa and Aelwydd that the killings, the blood, the crying, it was all too much. The situation was too much.

 

Him thinking you were over-reacting and needed to calm down and deal? Would be an extremely common reaction from a military person, in my experience. You didn't think about that in the moment. You didn't think about how he might be experiencing any of it, and you told him to shut up. I don't think saying, "f you" is all that much worse than your "shut up" in the heat of the moment.

 

Your husband putting him against a wall? Sure, of course it was instinctual and protective. But, no more so than your brother acting out to protect himself in the moment.

 

That's how I see it, anyway.

 

eta: About the contempt...soldiers come home to a world unaffected by war. They come home to their kids who *are* WAY spoiled compared to kids who have nothing, many of whom aren't allowed to go to school, who are treated as *commodities* and it is hard for them not to look down on that in a way. They have to be reminded over time: hey, this is what you're fighting for. We don't want our kids to experience any of that. It's a hard thing.

 

I did want to address this specific post, separately:

Our family has unfortunately had experience coping with PTSD in a relative that served a year in Iraq. It's a difficult and heartbreaking situation, to see that damage, when they aren't really given any tools to recognize it or to cope with it.

 

This is completely and totally untrue. Soldiers have been given training about PTSD and mild TBI since 1998. Trainings have been regularly updated every couple of years as the GWOT and repeat deployments really started to take their toll on soldiers and families. They receive briefings and trainings on these issues in theater and a few times throughout the training cycle after a unit returns home. Programs have even been implemented to decrease the stigma of seeking help.

 

I can list several programs (aside from the briefings and trainings received through the unit from soldiers to senior leadership levels) that can help off the top of my head, and I'm just a spouse; I don't receive nearly as much information about this stuff as soldiers do. Military Family Life Consultants, Military Onesource, the Real Warriors Campaign, Battlemind training, Army Resiliency Training, Respect-Mil, Warrior Adventure Quest, the ACE program (which is a suicide prevention program, the soldiers in our unit are required to carry cards at all times with the ACE information). There are easily a dozen ways for soldiers to get help. The Military Family Life Consultants are even *completely* anonymous, they keep no records.

 

 

Chocolate, we're all reading this second-hand, but I really think that this statement is an overly simplistic interpretation of events. If someone is normally a very easy-going person, reads a situation to be extreme enough to warrant a physical reaction, "immaturity" is not the conclusion I'd jump to. Nakia has shared that her husband felt she was in imminent physical danger. What does maturity have to do with seeking to protect one's spouse?

 

I don't think maturity has anything to do with this situation at all. I think it has to do with introducing a traumatized individual into a highly volatile situation, in terms of triggers (blood, death, high emotion, chaotic activity).

 

I tend to think that Patrick, who has known Scott since he was 5 years old, would be a better judge of what is normal and what is truly aberrant, than outsiders like you and I. Why should he be punished, by being scolded as being immature, for immediately stepping forward to protect his wife? He didn't do anything inappropriate in my opinion. He didn't beat him up. He didn't try to kill him, or something truly crazy like that. He used just enough force to knock Scott out of his zone.

 

Like I said, we may be socialized to ignore instincts, but when a truly dangerous situation presents itself, you rarely go wrong by listening to them. That's not a maturity issue, that's a survival issue.

 

I agree, with both. I adore, my dear, and I'm sure my spouse would have responded in a similar manner. However, it sounds like the event was too much for your brother and he didn't have the ability to check himself.

 

If there is going to be resolution, your dh may have to make the step. An apology, even if he doesn't think one is necessary, could open the door to discuss the situation.

 

If you view this from brother's perspective, he's come home early, he's out of the war zone, and then chaos happens and before he knows it, he's slammed into a wall. Not quite the homecoming he pictured, probably.

 

If Patrick has been the elder in the relationship he may be the one to make the step, I know I said that already.:tongue_smilie: I would ask my dh to apologize so there possibly be reconciliation. If need be, then you be the one to start the conversation.

 

For my own conscience, I'd have to have the air cleared. Many people lose their tempers. It's harder to move through the fallout. I would not do this in haste, I would take the time it needs, but I would address it. :grouphug::grouphug::grouphug:

 

Wow.

 

Classic PTSD.

 

Classic.

 

There's no doubt in my mind whatsoever that your brother's reaction to you was sheer PTSD. He'd been home a week? It takes a long, LONG time to mentally adjust to being out of a war zone.

 

When my DH returned from Iraq, I made the mistake of asking him to come to the commissary with me the next day to grab a few items. (After all, I had been a long time without him, and I wanted him near me!) Big mistake. After being there for about five minutes, he went into a full blown anxiety attack, and we had to immediately leave the place. I tell you this because it's seemingly innocent things that can trigger the PTSD. If my DH reacted that way at the commissary where nothing significant was going on, I can imagine that seeing blood, death, chaos, crying kids... well, I can imagine that something in his head went "SNAP!"

 

First of all, I don't see a whole lot of difference between shut up and fy. Between siblings, in a loud, stressful situation, there was ugly behavior on both sides No judgment, but it sounds like it would have ended there had your husband not gotten involved.

 

I would expect a husband to protect his wife, maybe by getting between his wife and imminent danger. I can see "hey let's cool it", or "there are kids here, watch the language". But to start a violent physical altercation by slamming a man up against the wall seems way overdone.

 

To deal with that the first week home, in front of his family, from someone he presumably looked up to, must have been very difficult for your brother. I think for him to have not struck back against your dh and merely keep his distance is really admirable.

 

Like you, I wouldn't keep nagging dh because as you have mentioned, it's neither desirable nor effective. But I also think it's unfair to put all the responsibility for resolution on your brother... which is how I would take the "we miss you", we just want you to come back to us kind of comments. You're telling him that this is a problem he should fix, when IMO the only way to fix it would be for your husband, the instigator of the physical attack, to apologize.

 

Since you said your dh won't apologize, I would just accept that your brother isn't going to be involved in your family activities and pursue other options to maintain a relationship with him. Meet up with him for lunch, that kind of thing. Show him he's important to you by wanting to get to know him, not expecting him to hang out with a group that includes a guy who (a) phsyically attacked him and (b) refuses to apologize.

 

BTW, although the PTSD concern may be valid, I don't know that you're the right person to bring it up, at least not right now. The implication would be that if he's not fine with being attacked by your husband, he must have a disorder. (I know that's not how you mean it.)

 

If Partrick coulds see it wasn't about *him* but about the commotion, perhpas he could find a place in his heart to talk with your brother and say something like, "It must have been crazy to come home from Afganistahn to a wild party and be around all that drama. I'm sorry I pushed you, man. I went into protection mode over my Nakia. I know sibs fight sometimes. I know you love each other, and I know she misses you. I'm cool with you. I hope you're cool with me."

 

Or however guys talk. :D

Edited March 19, 2012 by Mrs Mungo

[Mrs Mungo]

One other thing. If anyone is seeking help for issues related to PTSD, there is help out there. Please visit Military OneSource or the VA's PTSD website.

[Nakia]

Mrs. Mungo,

Thank you for responding. I'm really glad you did. This is so complex, and I know that my brother is seeking help for his physical injuries, but I don't know if he is in any kind of counseling for the psychological stuff. I hope so. I can't imagine what he is going through. My other brother, who been to Iraq twice and is now in Afghanistan, hasn't ever been this way after coming home from a deployment. But I know everyone handles things differently, and Kevin (my other brother) probably didn't have to deal with this type of situation (birthday party, crying kids, dead chicken) a week after getting home. So it's very different.

[Mrs Mungo]

Mrs. Mungo,

Thank you for responding. I'm really glad you did. This is so complex, and I know that my brother is seeking help for his physical injuries, but I don't know if he is in any kind of counseling for the psychological stuff. I hope so. I can't imagine what he is going through. My other brother, who been to Iraq twice and is now in Afghanistan, hasn't ever been this way after coming home from a deployment. But I know everyone handles things differently, and Kevin (my other brother) probably didn't have to deal with this type of situation (birthday party, crying kids, dead chicken) a week after getting home. So it's very different.

 

Well, and it might be that he's recovered by now. Honestly, most soldiers slowly recover from trauma on their own. Not being able to do that on their own, *that* is what PTSD is.

[Nakia]

Well, and it might be that he's recovered by now. Honestly, most soldiers slowly recover from trauma on their own. Not being able to do that on their own, *that* is what PTSD is.

 

Unfortunately, I have no idea how he is really doing. I don't see him much anymore. We are all just really busy. I need to check in with him more often.

[LG Gone Wild]

Does it matter if anyone but Scott feels like Patrick needs to apologize? I don't think it does matter. Sometimes you apologize to help the situation, even when you do not feel that you were in the wrong.

 

 

 

 

Sort of because a man shouldn't be able to think he can get in a woman's face, scream F O, and believe himself to be the injured party.

 

But I can also see where the husband might want to offer one if it aids in the healing of the family.

[MHowell]

FWIW I don't think Patrick needs to apologize at all. What if Scott was having a flash back type of PTSD issue at the time? If he is right in your face, it could turn violent VERY QUICKLY. Patrick did what he thought was right. Even from a legal perspective the charge would most likely be thrown out after the full story was presented to the DA.

 

I think instead of a hug it out and talk about it resolution, slowly getting them around each other again will eventually get them to talk, and even if they don't discuss what happened, they could get to being civil again. Over time it will get better hopefully.

 

I do think YOU should tell your brother how much this hurts you, and your family to have the two of the not speaking.

[TravelingChris]

LG said, "Sort of because a man shouldn't be able to think he can get in a woman's face, scream F O, and believe himself to be the injured party.

 

But I can also see where the husband might want to offer one if it aids in the healing of the family."

 

The problem is that the husband did overreact. Yes, it is unacceptable to do what the brother did. It also was unacceptable to do what Nakia did- yelling shut up to a soldier who just came back and where the noisy situation was not due to him. However, what the husband did was illegal. You may feel that some situation needs pre-empted action. But in this country, the law is that words don't matter but physical actions do, YOu are not allowed for one adult to put their hands on another and body slammed them into a wall-regardless of the words the other is saying. Therefore, the husband should apologize, however, he won't. Therefore, the only option left is for Nakia to visit her brother either alone or with her children. She can only pray or wait for her husband or her brother to change their minds. Nagging won't help.

[bookfiend]

n.m.

Edited March 21, 2012 by bookfiend

[LG Gone Wild]

 

The problem is that the husband did overreact. Yes, it is unacceptable to do what the brother did. It also was unacceptable to do what Nakia did- yelling shut up to a soldier who just came back and where the noisy situation was not due to him. However, what the husband did was illegal. You may feel that some situation needs pre-empted action. But in this country, the law is that words don't matter but physical actions do, YOu are not allowed for one adult to put their hands on another and body slammed them into a wall-regardless of the words the other is saying. Therefore, the husband should apologize, however, he won't. Therefore, the only option left is for Nakia to visit her brother either alone or with her children. She can only pray or wait for her husband or her brother to change their minds. Nagging won't help.

 

Disagree.

 

That may depend on the state.

 

I am thankful that her husband acted in the manner that he did. He saved her.

 

It's not Nakia's fault this happened.

[Mrs Mungo]

FWIW I don't think Patrick needs to apologize at all.

 

Apologizing for *your part* of a conflict is part and parcel of basic conflict resolution. Patrick might say something like, "I am really sorry about what happened between the two of us. I felt scared for my wife. I worried about how your experiences in a war zone might have affected you, and my protective instinct kicked in without my really thinking about it. Obviously, I know that you would never harm Nakia under normal circumstances. I would really like to rebuild the trust between us and build a new relationship."

 

LG said, "Sort of because a man shouldn't be able to think he can get in a woman's face, scream F O, and believe himself to be the injured party.

 

But I can also see where the husband might want to offer one if it aids in the healing of the family."

 

The problem is that the husband did overreact. Yes, it is unacceptable to do what the brother did. It also was unacceptable to do what Nakia did- yelling shut up to a soldier who just came back and where the noisy situation was not due to him. However, what the husband did was illegal. You may feel that some situation needs pre-empted action. But in this country, the law is that words don't matter but physical actions do, YOu are not allowed for one adult to put their hands on another and body slammed them into a wall-regardless of the words the other is saying. Therefore, the husband should apologize, however, he won't. Therefore, the only option left is for Nakia to visit her brother either alone or with her children. She can only pray or wait for her husband or her brother to change their minds. Nagging won't help.

 

I agree that Nakia's brother needs an apology, regardless of whether people think he is owed one. I agree that nagging her husband won't help. And, you're right, she will probably have to see her brother on her own for a while. But, maybe, she could talk to her husband about conflict resolution? Is he the type who might read a book or look up a website or any of that?

[aggieamy]

LG said, "Sort of because a man shouldn't be able to think he can get in a woman's face, scream F O, and believe himself to be the injured party.

 

But I can also see where the husband might want to offer one if it aids in the healing of the family."

 

The problem is that the husband did overreact. Yes, it is unacceptable to do what the brother did. It also was unacceptable to do what Nakia did- yelling shut up to a soldier who just came back and where the noisy situation was not due to him. However, what the husband did was illegal. You may feel that some situation needs pre-empted action. But in this country, the law is that words don't matter but physical actions do, YOu are not allowed for one adult to put their hands on another and body slammed them into a wall-regardless of the words the other is saying. Therefore, the husband should apologize, however, he won't. Therefore, the only option left is for Nakia to visit her brother either alone or with her children. She can only pray or wait for her husband or her brother to change their minds. Nagging won't help.

 

This is how I feel. It's such a sad situation. It might be that I have too much redneck in my family but if my brother and I were yelling at each other my husband wouldn't get involved. He knows that I can handle my own family and I would be very upset with him if while I was arguring (or yelling) at my brother he started a physical altercation. However you have to work with the situation you have and since your DH feels he's in the right and won't offer an apology to your brother then I vote for the idea is to just visit her brother without her DH and hope time will heal this.

 

ETA: My brother and I have never yelled at each other by he and one of my older sisters have had lots of words. They might even get in each others faces but there's never any hard feelings. DH makes fun of my family that we can be ready to kill each other and then an hour later we're all joking and having dessert together.

[Element]

The problem is that the husband did overreact. Yes, it is unacceptable to do what the brother did. It also was unacceptable to do what Nakia did- yelling shut up to a soldier who just came back and where the noisy situation was not due to him. However, what the husband did was illegal. You may feel that some situation needs pre-empted action. But in this country, the law is that words don't matter but physical actions do, YOu are not allowed for one adult to put their hands on another and body slammed them into a wall-regardless of the words the other is saying. Therefore, the husband should apologize, however, he won't. Therefore, the only option left is for Nakia to visit her brother either alone or with her children. She can only pray or wait for her husband or her brother to change their minds. Nagging won't help.

 

:iagree: I didn't want to post since how I felt sounded so harsh (and I didn't want to cause any more pain to Nakia) but you wrote what I was thinking. We are in a similar situation with my ILs (where dh is the "brother" in a similar scenario) so my judgment is currently clouded, I'm sure. Words can do major damage but in the end I don't believe in "fighting words." That is, I think words should be responded to with words, not physical violence. I'm very sorry, Nakia. You are in a difficult, painful place right now. For us, the best option was severing ties with dh's sister's family. It's not ideal, and I hope it doesn't come to that for you.

Edited March 21, 2012 by Element

[aggieamy]

Disagree.

 

That may depend on the state.

 

I am thankful that her husband acted in the manner that he did. He saved her.

 

It's not Nakia's fault this happened.

 

Saved her from what though? It's all speculation at this point. I don't think people need to be saved from yelling or even having people in their faces. Her brother didn't hit her or even try to from my understanding of the situation. She yelled at him and he got in her face and yelled at her. How different the situation would have played out if someone had jumped up and told everyone to calm down or simply got between them and diffused the situation. In my opinion the situation was made worse - not better - by making the verbal altercation into a physical one.

 

ETA: I feel like I need all kinds of disclaimers with these posts because I don't want to seem to harsh. I'm a very calm in situations - I must have a British streak in me - so I'm looking at how I would have dealt with the situation. If someone gets in my face I'm likely to be the one to take the step back and try to calm them down. I've had situations where people have been angry and in my face and it can be scary but I also know that situations generally turn sour when people overreact. I'm always telling my kids in a crisis the most important thing to do is to stay CALM and don't get upset.

Edited March 21, 2012 by aggieamy

[Sahamamama]

See, I asked Patrick why in the world he slammed Scott against the wall like that. I'm telling you I have NEVER seen Patrick act that way. My middle brother and I have all but brawled, and Patrick has stayed out of it. Patrick told me that something clicked in him, and he felt like he had to protect me from Scott. He said he was honestly scared for me. I don't get it. It must be a guy thing. Or maybe it's kinda like "momma bear" or something. Patrick can't really explain it except that he just knew Scott could and would hurt me at that moment if he didn't intervene. Please know that I don't condone Patrick's behavior. But knowing him and knowing how out of character it was, I do believe him.

 

But I say, "Good for Patrick." His response probably did protect you from worse than you got. Good for Patrick. You are blessed to have him.

 

Let your brother go.

 

Which is the greater loss? For Patrick to not have Scott in his life? Or for Scott to not have Patrick? For you, what would the greater loss be?

[Whereneverever]

Saved her from what though? It's all speculation at this point. I don't think people need to be saved from yelling or even having people in their faces. Her brother didn't hit her or even try to from my understanding of the situation. She yelled at him and he got in her face and yelled at her. How different the situation would have played out if someone had jumped up and told everyone to calm down or simply got between them and diffused the situation. In my opinion the situation was made worse - not better - by making the verbal altercation into a physical one.

 

ETA: I feel like I need all kinds of disclaimers with these posts because I don't want to seem to harsh. I'm a very calm in situations - I must have a British streak in me - so I'm looking at how I would have dealt with the situation. If someone gets in my face I'm likely to be the one to take the step back and try to calm them down. I've had situations where people have been angry and in my face and it can be scary but I also know that situations generally turn sour when people overreact. I'm always telling my kids in a crisis the most important thing to do is to stay CALM and don't get upset.

 

:iagree: I'm really sad at the assumptions about what the brother would have done.

[Danestress]

Unfortunately, I have no idea how he is really doing. I don't see him much anymore. We are all just really busy. I need to check in with him more often.

 

Just check in with him more often. You can't get a "redo" on this - no one can. It would have been better if you had remained calm in the crisis. If would have been better if you brother had walked away from the stress. It would have been better if Patrick would have defused instead of escalating the problem. I do think Patrick has the ability to reach out in humility and seek peace. He was willing to get up in someone's face to 'defend' you but isn't willing to take steps to do what would really be best for you in this situation. But I have a husband too, so I know how that goes. They don't always do what we wish even when we are right and tell them so:)

 

I think I would just quietly reach out to your brother in kind but unobtrusive wat. Send him a card on memorial day thanking him. For serving. Invite him over for Easster. Ask him out to lunch. But just keep it focused on him. These things sometimes need time to blow over.

Edited March 21, 2012 by Danestress

[Whereneverever]

Something else... If the brother was really dangerously out of control, Patrick is lucky he wasn't injured. I'd assume a vet is more physically adept in confrontations then the average person, you know? I think he showed restraint in not continuing the escalation. That doesn't sound immature to me. :(

[LG Gone Wild]

Saved her from what though? It's all speculation at this point. I don't think people need to be saved from yelling or even having people in their faces. Her brother didn't hit her or even try to from my understanding of the situation. She yelled at him and he got in her face and yelled at her. How different the situation would have played out if someone had jumped up and told everyone to calm down or simply got between them and diffused the situation. In my opinion the situation was made worse - not better - by making the verbal altercation into a physical one.

 

ETA: I feel like I need all kinds of disclaimers with these posts because I don't want to seem to harsh. I'm a very calm in situations - I must have a British streak in me - so I'm looking at how I would have dealt with the situation. If someone gets in my face I'm likely to be the one to take the step back and try to calm them down. I've had situations where people have been angry and in my face and it can be scary but I also know that situations generally turn sour when people overreact. I'm always telling my kids in a crisis the most important thing to do is to stay CALM and don't get upset.

 

 

I would be glad if my husband reacted the same if a man (relative or not) got in my face to scream obscenity at me. It seems strange to me that a person can get into the face of a man's wife and NOT expect to be slammed into a wall. I suppose this is where I say, "YMMV". :)

 

Save Nakia from what? Who knows? I shudder to think. That is part of what makes it nerve wracking, it can't be predicted especially when emotion is involved.

 

Nakia describes her husband as a calm man and it speaks volumes that he was sufficiently alarmed that a trusted friend/relative was scary enough to warrant his drastic action. We aren't talking about a drunken lout arguing over football!

 

I don't think, really, anyone is truly to blame, the husband least of all. It was one of those days of a bad chain reaction.

[Mrs Mungo]

Send him a card on memorial day thanking him. For serving.

 

No, no, not this. This is *not* okay in the military community.

 

Something else... If the brother was really dangerously out of control, Patrick is lucky he wasn't injured.

 

The only one who got physical is Patrick. It is *absurd* to imply that the brother was dangerous because he *yelled back* at Nakia *after* she *yelled at* him!!

[Danestress]

For one thing, vets who come home often leave brothers in arms behind, and recognizing the loss of their fellow service members is appropriate.

 

But apart from that, in the South at least, Memorial Day is usually marked by parades and activities that honor our troops. I don't think it is "eek" at all! I understand tha it's a day in memory of our war dead, but I think we customarily honor this who fought but didn't die as well.