dragons in the flower bed Posted January 15, 2012 Share Posted January 15, 2012 I posted this exchange with my eleven-year-old son in my blog earlier today. I am posting here too because this exchange changed the mood in the house for the worse for the rest of the night. We really need ideas. Dog: "Woof!" Me: "Scientist, could you please take the dog out?" Scientist: ignores me Dog: "Woof!" Me: "Scientist?" Scientist: ignores me Dog: "Woof!" Me: "Hey! Can you hear us? The dog needs to go out." This has always been his job. In his toddlerhood it was really the dog's job to make sure I heard about it if anyone came into the fenced-in backyard where the Scientist was allowed to play by himself. There is no way he doesn't know that the dog barking at him in the evening and the morning means he is to get up and let the dog out. Twice a day like clockwork, every day, for his whole life, this has happened. Dog: "Woof! Woof! Woof!" Scientist gets up and puts shoes on. Me: "Did you hear me?" Scientist: "YES! ARGH!" Me (remembering a complaint he had several months ago about me interrupting his play with requests): "Would it be better for you if we had a schedule written down and put on the wall, so you remember what to plan around?" Scientist: ignores me and puts coat on Me: "Did you hear me?" Scientist: ignores me and walks towards back door Me: "It's not okay for you to just not answer me, or anyone who is talking to you. Answer me." Scientist: puts hood up Me: "Answer me." Scientist: "ARGH!" Me: "That's not an acceptable answer either." Scientist: velcroes hood across face Me: "Would it be better for you if we had a schedule written down?" Scientist: "NO!" Me: "Do you have any other ideas for how to make it better?" Scientist: turns towards door Me: "We're still talking. You can't just walk away." Scientist: turns back, says nothing Me: "Do you have any other ideas?" Scientist: "No!" Me: "Do you want to work up some together?" Scientist: turns towards back door again as though to walk away Me: "Hey! Answer me! Do you want to make this better?" Scientist: "Argh!" Me: "That's not an acceptable answer." Scientist: "I don't want to work on ways to make it better because it CAN'T be made better!" At that point he turned for the back door again and I let him go. Some days, this is how he responds to every single prompt on my part. We keep a relatively predictable rhythm in the mornings and evenings (although we haven't found a groove for schooling in the new apartment yet). He knows he's evading a thing before I prompt him to do it. Is this normal pre-pubescent surliness? What do I do? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MHowell Posted January 15, 2012 Share Posted January 15, 2012 Sounds exactly like my dd (10). I wish I had advice for you! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lang Syne Boardie Posted January 15, 2012 Share Posted January 15, 2012 Yes, it's normal. As for what to do, I would answer but I have to go get my 11yo son out of the crawl space again. Srsly, I was just about to (frustratedly) go deal with him (again) when I saw this post. Time, Mama. They'll grow out of it if we keep forcing them to be "brought up." These new dense and rude behaviors only become permanent if nobody cares. :grouphug: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Embassy Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 :grouphug: I think it is normal. At least it is here:tongue_smilie: I find it helpful to keep interaction to a minimum while he is completing the chore. By the time the chore is done his irritation has lessened and he is able to talk rationally. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harriet Vane Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 Relentless commitment to the Do-Over is what I have done. Each. and. every. time. the answer is unacceptable, respond calmly telling them what is unacceptable and requesting a do-over. Examples: "It is not acceptable to ignore me. Please use words to answer. Try it again." "It is rude to grunt at me. Please use kind words. Try again." I do try to keep the tone light where possible, but sometimes it's not possible. Sometimes I just shoot for "calm" and hope that "light" will follow after. ;) I have, at times, been known to request situps or pushups in addition to the do-over. It's amazing how motivating that can be. Really, though, the relentless coaching for do-overs does wear away at the resistance. :grouphug: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KS_ Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 :grouphug: I think it is normal. At least it is here:tongue_smilie: I find it helpful to keep interaction to a minimum while he is completing the chore. By the time the chore is done his irritation has lessened and he is able to talk rationally. I also try to not interact and push the issue when my dc are irritated. I know ignoring and not responding is rude, but I've found that when I press for an answer or response, things can spiral downward really fast. If I don't, and let them cool down, they will often come apologize later and the day won't be ruined. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carol in Cal. Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 It's both normal and unacceptable. I wish I had some greatly effective advice to offer. I don't. I will be watching this thread with interest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean in Newcastle Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 Relentless commitment to the Do-Over is what I have done. Each. and. every. time. the answer is unacceptable, respond calmly telling them what is unacceptable and requesting a do-over. Examples: "It is not acceptable to ignore me. Please use words to answer. Try it again." "It is rude to grunt at me. Please use kind words. Try again." I do try to keep the tone light where possible, but sometimes it's not possible. Sometimes I just shoot for "calm" and hope that "light" will follow after. ;) I have, at times, been known to request situps or pushups in addition to the do-over. It's amazing how motivating that can be. Really, though, the relentless coaching for do-overs does wear away at the resistance. :grouphug: :iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree: Did that with ds14 and am doing that with dd10. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lang Syne Boardie Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 Relentless commitment to the Do-Over is what I have done. Each. and. every. time. the answer is unacceptable, respond calmly telling them what is unacceptable and requesting a do-over. Examples: "It is not acceptable to ignore me. Please use words to answer. Try it again." "It is rude to grunt at me. Please use kind words. Try again." I do try to keep the tone light where possible, but sometimes it's not possible. Sometimes I just shoot for "calm" and hope that "light" will follow after. ;) I have, at times, been known to request situps or pushups in addition to the do-over. It's amazing how motivating that can be. Really, though, the relentless coaching for do-overs does wear away at the resistance. :grouphug: :iagree: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragons in the flower bed Posted January 16, 2012 Author Share Posted January 16, 2012 Did that with ds14 and am doing that with dd10. Does that mean this will stop by 14 if I keep on top of the do-overs? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean in Newcastle Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 Does that mean this will stop by 14 if I keep on top of the do-overs? It did with mine, but I think the standard "every child is different" disclaimer applies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragons in the flower bed Posted January 16, 2012 Author Share Posted January 16, 2012 (edited) I also try to not interact and push the issue when my dc are irritated. I know ignoring and not responding is rude, but I've found that when I press for an answer or response, things can spiral downward really fast. If I don't, and let them cool down, they will often come apologize later and the day won't be ruined. But my kid is always irritated. I am more careful not to bug him when he's already upset about something, but should I really just let his part of our lives stop when he is grumpy? That'd be 3/4 of the time. Edited January 16, 2012 by dragons in the flower bed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laura in MI Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 Relentless commitment to the Do-Over is what I have done. Each. and. every. time. the answer is unacceptable, respond calmly telling them what is unacceptable and requesting a do-over. Examples: "It is not acceptable to ignore me. Please use words to answer. Try it again." "It is rude to grunt at me. Please use kind words. Try again." I do try to keep the tone light where possible, but sometimes it's not possible. Sometimes I just shoot for "calm" and hope that "light" will follow after. ;) I have, at times, been known to request situps or pushups in addition to the do-over. It's amazing how motivating that can be. Really, though, the relentless coaching for do-overs does wear away at the resistance. :grouphug: :iagree: This is what I do too. :grouphug: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nd293 Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 It's normal around here with dd11. Not pleasant, not appreciated, but normal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kalanamak Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 Instead, today, I throttled my pencil. This was after the 15th "stop tipping your chair" (which he does and lets slam down while I'm trying to explain the finer points of finding area.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KS_ Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 But my kid is always irritated. I am more careful not to bug him when he's already upset about something, but should I really just let his part of our lives stop when he is grumpy? That'd be 3/4 of the time. Well, my ds is my very challenging child and is a glass half-empty personality. I've found that, with him (may not work with all children), pushing him only brings out more of that. By not pushing him and going on about my business, and trying not to be drawn into his grumpiness, he comes out of that more quickly. If I push and get drawn into it, we don't ever have a good outcome (and I've tried in the past to do the "redo" until you can do it right technique - it doesn't work well with him and we get drawn into an all day battle). Since I've changed the way I respond to him, we've developed a better relationship and he doesn't feel like I'm out to get him (which he used to think). Sometimes, I don't like having to work around his personality, but no matter what I'm doing in response to him, in some way I have to deal with it. I'd rather let him go about being grumpy and out of sorts than having the whole family have a bad day because things have spiraled downward by pushing him. And honestly, he's been much better to be around since I've changed - he still gets grumpy and irritated, but it doesn't seem as often or last as long, and he's so much more likely to come and apologize on his own for his attitude. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harriet Vane Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 Does that mean this will stop by 14 if I keep on top of the do-overs? It mostly has stopped with my almost-15yo. However, she's very sweet and compliant by nature. My 10yo, on the other hand, is much more passionate than dd. He does a lot of "do-overs" these days. I have a feeling his road will be rockier than his sister's; however, I have seen really, really good results from this with him even in the short-term. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swellmomma Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 :grouphug: My 12 yr old dd has tried that one. I usually give them the correct words to use (like I did when they were toddlers) and make them repeat them until they can say it without the attitude leaking through. So the correct response in my house for a request like that is "yes mom" If they had simply said okay and did it right away I wouldn't care, but and attitude gets my repeating "did you hear me" and having them say "yes mom" until they say it pleasantly. Then onto doing whatever it was they were told to do. Walking away from me when I am speaking to them is a huge no no here. That is one of the times I raise my voice with a "you have 3 seconds to turn around and get back here" Followed by one of my lectures on rudeness and disrespect (and a reminder that they could have been done with this conversation if they had remained talking to me and not turning their back on me so rudely). Loss of priveledge comes if the rudeness continues. FOr my oldest is different. He is currently getting 25 cents for every 20 minutes he can behave (and making very little), out right ignoring or disrespect makes him lose 50cents. He has been more polite lately as a result. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
starwarsmomma Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 Depends on the kid... Kid #1 and #3, NOT normal Kid #2 would fight or show attitude anytime, anywhere. I DO have zero tolerance for attitude like that, but will admit that kid #2 doesn't care about the zero tolerance. Or consequences. UUGH!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragons in the flower bed Posted January 16, 2012 Author Share Posted January 16, 2012 Thanks for your feedback, everyone. It helps me feel like I will survive this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caribbean Queen Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 Dog: "Woof!"Me: "Scientist, could you please take the dog out?" Scientist: ignores me Dog: "Woof!" Me: "Scientist?" Scientist: ignores me Dog: "Woof!" Here is where I would give him an extra chore, or some other punishment. "Since you didn't respond after you take out the dog you will ______." Scientist gets up and puts shoes on. Me: "Did you hear me?" Scientist: "YES! ARGH!" I ask for do-overs when I hear responses with a bad attitude. Me: "Do you have any other ideas?" Me: "Do you want to work up some together?" These kind of conversations should be initiated sparingly, and not right as the dog is about to pee on the floor. :lol: We all have to do things we don't like. That's life. We just buck up and do it. .. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Dominion Heather Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 I've told mine that the dogs deserve to have owners who actually care for them and play with them and if they can't do that, I'll find them another home. They know I would do it, too. BUT, each dog belongs to a boy; so if one isn't getting fed, played with, walked, I know who it is. If they were family dogs, it wouldn't work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Mungo Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 Does that mean this will stop by 14 if I keep on top of the do-overs? Yes. But that won't stop new behaviors that you will have to work on. Parenting is fun!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SweetMissMagnolia Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 sounds like my 9yr old:grouphug: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragons in the flower bed Posted January 16, 2012 Author Share Posted January 16, 2012 I've told mine that the dogs deserve to have owners who actually care for them and play with them and if they can't do that, I'll find them another home. They know I would do it, too. BUT, each dog belongs to a boy; so if one isn't getting fed, played with, walked, I know who it is. If they were family dogs, it wouldn't work. Yeah, I think it would traumatize this old girl to be moved to a new family now. (It would also traumatize me.) She's been with us since she was only six weeks old. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragons in the flower bed Posted January 16, 2012 Author Share Posted January 16, 2012 Perhaps punishment upon first ignoring is the way to go. He is pretty healthfully responsive to that kind of disciplinary action but I don't tend to think of it because punishment backfires with my other two boys. Thanks for the prompt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scarlett Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 Perhaps punishment upon first ignoring is the way to go. He is pretty healthfully responsive to that kind of disciplinary action but I don't tend to think of it because punishment backfires with my other two boys. Thanks for the prompt. :grouphug: I just read the entire thread and you have my sympathy! My ds11 gives me grief a lot. The do over is very effective but I am TERRIBLE at implementing it! My default response is anger at the disrespect. When I manage to be calm it is soooooo much better. Just the other day, we were doing some reading out loud and he was NOT wanting to do it. My stepson who is 10 was here and I was having them take turns. On ds's turn he would read so quickly no word could be understood. I calmly let him finish and then said, 'ok, no one can understand you when you read that fast. Let's try again.' Three times he read that paragraph until I deemed it acceptable. There was a question to be answered about the paragraph and he pretended he didn't know the answer. He read almost every word in the paragraph EXCEPT the answer. It was so ridiculous it was comical. Reading these threads always inspire me to try harder with ds and not be so discouraged by his 'age expected but not acceptable' behavior. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maddykate Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 What was your son doing when the dog barked to be taken out? Was he reading, was he watching a movie, etc.? It doesn't change the fact that he was rude and disobedient to you, but it would make me mad if someone interrupted what I was doing and didn't let me finish. However, he has to understand that it is not appropriate to treat you with such disrespect and if he cannot manage that, then certain privileges will be taken away. Another suggestion would be to give him a time line...like how you have to do with toddlers in preparation for leaving a play date... For example, you could say, "scientist, woof has to go potty, so you need to get ready to take him out in the next few minutes. Wrap up what you are doing so you can do that". Then, give him clear information on what the consequences will be. Ex. "If I have remind you again, you will lose screen time for the rest of the day" or whatever. I do have to say that no matter the reason, being growled at by my dc just.would.not.happen. I will not tolerate any amount of disrespect with going off the deep end, so they may do it once, but I think it would scare them so bad that they would never do it again. They would be able to control themselves if their friends were sitting right there, or for someone else, so they better keep themselves under control towards me! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plucky Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 For me my mantra is to "not take the bait." No power struggle. Have him do the job and go to his room for the night or until he is calm enough to talk. All privileges are gone until he can talk to you correctly. When everyone is calm then you can talk about it. I find discussing things in the moment with an irritated child doesn't work. They have to be calm and open to talking. Plus, when I get irritated things just go downhill as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nakia Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 Sounds like my 11 year old dd. She has a "someone licked the frosting off my pop-tart" attitude most days. Ugh. She's just wretched. Everyone keeps telling me it will get better. It has to. :grouphug::grouphug::grouphug: friend. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unsinkable Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 Once I realized the "mood" I would not have engaged. "Get up now. Take the dog out now." And no more discussion. I might be reading it wrong, but it seemed like you were making it worse by trying to making it easier for him to do an already super simple task. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scarlett Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 Once I realized the "mood" I would not have engaged. "Get up now. Take the dog out now." And no more discussion. I might be reading it wrong, but it seemed like you were making it worse by trying to making it easier for him to do an already super simple task. I agree...that was my take too. However, that is way better than some of my reactions to my ds behaving that way. :tongue_smilie: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paige Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 Once I realized the "mood" I would not have engaged. "Get up now. Take the dog out now." And no more discussion. I might be reading it wrong, but it seemed like you were making it worse by trying to making it easier for him to do an already super simple task. :iagree: From my point of view, it sounds like your expectation may not have been clear enough. My DS is 10 and he thinks anything less than a direct order for immediate action is negotiable or means, "when you feel like it." If I say, "I want you to clean your room." He will mumble and intend to do it sometime but otherwise ignore it. If I say, "Go clean your room now, please." Then he will realize what is expected, (complain), and go do it. For some reason, the please must be at the end of the statement or he perceives it as a negotiable request. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nakia Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 I think it was a perfectly clear and polite request. And Rose did say this has been the routine for years. It seems to me he should do it without having to be told. hear dog bark = let dog out I have had the same kind of exchange with my oldest. Then I want to slap myself because I realize I "over talked" if that makes sense. I am trying to get to the point of making a clear and polite request (like you did, Rose) and then, as a pp suggested, not engage any further. It's really hard especially when I know she is being disrespectful and it makes me angry. Then I just want to tell her off. The best for us is for me to remain extremely calm, state my requests, don't let her think her attitude bothers me, and go on about my business. If she disobeys, she deals with the consequences. It's hard and I'm not successful 100% of the time, but we actually are having good days again. Hang in there! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2_girls_mommy Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 It is normal here, and mine is only 9. But she has always been that way. For instance, at lunch: Would you like orange juice, cranberry juice, or water for lunch? She: grunts. (I think I may have heard orange in there somewhere.) Me: Please say, 'orange juice please.' She: grunts again. ( Maybe there was a please in there. ) Me: speak clearly and kindly. She: grunts Me: Well, I will put this all away. If you can't answer nicely, you can help yourself. She: 5 minutes later, as I have gone on with my business making sandwiches: May I have some orange juice please, mommy? *** and that was a successful, pleasant conversation :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
myfunnybunch Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 :grouphug: Maybe not approriate behavior, but normal. Ds11 and I have been having talks about how ignoring makes others feel, and that a reasonably prompt response is good manners. Also about attitudes in general, and that sometimes around this age, kids can start to feel irritable about things that wouldn't normally bother them, and that now is a good time to start learning to respond politely even if one doesn't quite feel like it. Sigh. So now I have a kid who says, "Ok," quite politely, but doesn't move. We're going through this over taking out the recycling and the dog right now. Five minutes ago, I walked over to ds and said, "Please take out the recycling right. now." And now the dog is yiping outside the back door because he went out with ds and ds is sitting there pretending he can't hear him. Thing is, I remember doing this to my mom. It wasn't really about ignoring her or battling with her, I just wasn't quite ready to move. Then I'd forget. Maybe I will call her and apologize (again). :D I wonder if they're making a developmental transition from doing things because mom says to doing things because it's the right thing to do, and there's a bit of a battleground in there to cross before they quite get there. Cat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest submarines Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 Do you have a rule that he has to comply cheerfully? If not, what's wrong with him being grumpy about it? Sure, he wasn't polite, but we all have our moments. I would not have brought any general issues into the conversation (such as what could be changed, a schedule, and so on.) He was already preoccupied and defensive, and I would've dealt with the issue at hand--him taking the dog out. He gave you many cues that he wasn't receptive, and forcing a conversation is neither polite nor fruitful. Then, when he was in a receptive state of mind, I would've made him a cup of hot chocolate, and we would've talked about making changes and improving the situation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SnowWhite Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 I have that here too, with ds 10.5. What's so annoying is that his 7 year old brother can hear me just fine and can accomplish tasks quickly and efficiently. I guess it is just "my priorities are the only ones that count" disease, which is a huge tween issue. I am going to try the short and to the point approach, accompanied by physical proximity and consequences for reinforcement if necessary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kalanamak Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 Yeah, I think it would traumatize this old girl to be moved to a new family now. (It would also traumatize me.) She's been with us since she was only six weeks old. You could trade jobs: "Okay, I'll take on the dog, but the toilets and sinks will be yours." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julie Smith Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 Sometimes kids can just totally destory the mood of a house. My eldest has been growth supporting - or something since after Christmas and is just today seeming to be less prone to the grumps. He has had me wondering :confused: a few times the past two weeks. So right now I can totally sympathize with you. I keep waiting for Captain moody grumpy pants to show up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
myfunnybunch Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 You could trade jobs: "Okay, I'll take on the dog, but the toilets and sinks will be yours." LOL. This actually works at bedtime in my house. First one into the bed gets to go to sleep; last one gets to stay up and fold all of the laundry. I actually beat 11 yo ds to his bed once. I was SO tempted to stay there. :D Cat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msjones Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 I have my own preteen boys who have their grumpy days, so I feel your frustration. You've already gotten quite a bit of good advice here, but I have one thing to add. I see that you published this encounter on your blog. I wonder how your son feels about that. That would have been hard for me when I was a moody and sometimes rude preteen. Just a thought... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jilly Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 Once I realized the "mood" I would not have engaged. "Get up now. Take the dog out now." And no more discussion. :iagree: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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