Veganism -- why not?

[BigMamaBird]

I recently watched Forks Over Knives which promotes a plant-based, whole foods diet.

 

Naturally, the film focuses on the benefits of a vegan diet; there seem to be plenty of benefits. The people in the film had terrific health improvements when they cut out meat and dairy. No drawbacks are mentioned.

 

So, I wonder what the folks on this forum have to say about veganism. Why not be a vegan?

 

For me, it's because I like meat. :D

[Joker]

No. Never.

 

I've been vegetarian for over 25 years and vegan for about 14. I drink smoothies made with fortified protein powder once a week or so, and I bake with fortified soy milk. (The kids drink it, but I'm not a fan of drinking it straight.)

 

I didn't mean the question as have you had trouble because you don't eat meat. I meant it as some people already have a deficiency regardless of what they eat.

 

So, for those like me who already have a deficiency a diet without meat can make it harder to maintain a healthy level. I added meat back in but still have to take supplements. We eat healthy, lots of veggies, and we like green smoothies. I still can't maintain a healthy level of B12 and feel good without supplements and meat in my diet.

[MissKNG]

I'm a lacto-ovo vegetarian and have been for 16 years. I *tried* to go vegan because I really wanted to but it was way too expensive! That is the primary reason why I could not stay vegan. If I could afford it and had the time, I would easily be vegan right now.

[AnnaM]

That being said, I don't judge meat eaters. Ignorance was bliss for me too...until I wasn't ignorant anymore. I couldn't ignore the fact 99% of meat in the US is factory farmed.

 

 

This is quite a blanket statement and if I was prone to take things personally I would think you were calling me ignorant. Not all meat is raised on a factory farm. The farm where we get our meat is a Mennonite farm that raises their animals quite well. When I walk into the small store I usually have to step over a chicken or two. We researched and decided to get our meat from a different source. We are not ignorant, we just chose to handle the factory farm differently than you did. Just because someone eats meat doesn't mean they are ignorant of factory farm practices. I know you probably didn't mean to come off as rude as you did.

[FiveOaksAcademy]

Because animals are tasty.

 

:iagree: Burgers, steaks, yum!! I'm one of those People Eating Tasty Animals. :001_smile:

[Soror]

That being said, I don't judge meat eaters. Ignorance was bliss for me too...until I wasn't ignorant anymore. I couldn't ignore the fact 99% of meat in the US is factory farmed.

 

As others have said, giving up meat is not necessarily more expensive. In fact, my grocery bill has gone down! As long as you're not buying a lot of meat substitutes or other weird processed stuff, you're good.

 

Non-ignorant meat eater. We source our own meat to small farms, hunt some on our own and butcher ourselves as well. We aren't doing dairy now but when we did it was from a small, very small farm, heck my son got to milk the goat some himself.

 

I feel sooooo much better on a paleo'ish diet. I think some people can adapt to the veg diet better than others though. Looking at our ancestors diets people have thrived on various diets ranging from all meat/milk/fat to vegetarian diets. I think the idea that any one diet is perfect for everybody is absurd. I think it is more productive to go by how you yourself feel and look into improving food practices(from farming to livestock- for the health of all of us) and not to get caught up in an ideology ignoring your own body's cues.

Edited October 25, 2011 by soror

[DarlaS]

The Framingham Nurses Study done in Massachusetts is something entriely different. Some decent info, but the data collection was entirely imperfect. It was all self reported.

 

Isn't that how pretty much all nutritional studies are done? Not sure how else you could (practically)

 

do it. Therefore they are all flawed. I guess we'll have to remain skeptical, and rely on common sense.

 

We're screwed. :tongue_smilie:

[Greta]

Why not be a vegan?

 

Because I was a vegetarian for five years, and learned (eventually) my lesson. I think vegetarianism/veganism can be cleansing at first, but I do not think it is healthy long-term. A primal type diet is just as cleansing, in my opinion, and can be sustained long-term. A primal diet makes MUCH more sense when you take the natural history of our species into account (hence the name of the diet! ;) ). We evolved to be hunter-gatherers. It is grains that are a recent addition to our diet (in anything more than minute quantities) and it is grains that are hard for us to digest, and which cause our health problems, most of which are the result of chronically elevated blood glucose levels, not too much protein or fat, contrary to what we've been taught.

 

I haven't read the rest of the thread -- I wish I had time but I have to run -- so forgive me if this has already been mentioned, but I would highly recommend reading Good Calories, Bad Calories by Gary Taubes to get a good look at the opposing viewpoint before you consider a vegan diet. If you weigh both sides of the argument and then still want to go vegan, then I will wish you luck. But I hope that book will convince you that fat and protein are NOT the dietary dangers.

 

Good luck! :001_smile:

[FiveOaksAcademy]

BTW, on the meat loving, we have a pig we are raising for meat at the moment. Something just killed all of our chickens or that is where our eggs would be coming from. They soon will be again. Our children raise chickens for meat as well. Our freezer is stocked with beef from a cow that we raised and shared with some friends. I love meat, but it is my preference to know where it comes from. No, it doesn't always work out that way, but it is my preference.

[caitlinsmom]

We were vegetarian for 5 years and never felt or looked better! My dh at the time was toying with the idea of veganism but in the end decided against it. Our big beef (no pun intended!)? We can recieve all nutrients necassary for life from plants except B12. If you eat eggs you recieve B12. If our bodies were meant to live without animal products there would be a vegetable source of B12 available.

 

Our reasons for going vegetarian health based to begin with. Dh was having seizures that were worsened with meat protiens (beef specifically). We are headed back to vegetarianism for the health benefits.

 

If its something that interests you go for it. I can't recommend veganism but vegetarianism is wonderful for health.

[ktgrok]

For what it's worth, and I do realize this is my own personal experience, although I was rejected to give blood a couple of times when I first went vegetarian due to anemia, I've had no health problems of any kind since going vegan. We get plenty of iron and calcium from vegan sources.

 

As far as eggs and dairy, please go read up on contemporary farming practices. It will be very clear why some people do not want to support that kind of cruelty.

 

I wouldn't argue the ethical reasons against factory farmed animals.Or even some health reasons against factory farmed animals. But grass fed/free range is an alternative, and a very healthy one. I buy my eggs from a sort of local place that I have visited, that sells them commercially. I have seen that they are free range (for real) and eating bugs and playing in the sun. I buy milk from a local cow. I buy grass fed beef from the next state over. Chicken is the most expensive to get free range, so I don't eat much chicken.

 

I don't think it is fair to compare a vegan diet to a diet based on factory farmed animal products and frankenfoods. The frankefoods will always be worse. But comparing grass fed, well raised animal products to a vegan diet is a different thing, and I think that the evidence shows that we are designed to eat that way.

[TranquilMind]

I've heard proponents of veganism say that there are no fat vegans. That is not true. There are fat vegans. I know some. (And they aren't "chips and candy" vegans; they eat healthy, whole-food vegan diets.)

 

Now, I'm not saying they aren't healthy. I don't equate weight and health. They may indeed be extremely healthy. And, thin vegans may be really unhealthy. I don't know. But, veganism isn't a cure for obesity, and the existence of fat vegans proves that.

Really? I've met fat vegetarians but never a fat vegan.

[JumpyTheFrog]

So, I wonder what the folks on this forum have to say about veganism. Why not be a vegan?

 

I have not read any of the replies yet. Here are my reasons:

 

1. Diabetes runs heavily in my family. A vegan diet would require too many carbs (such as beans) to get enough protein and then I would become diabetic. I do best on a low carb diet.

 

2. Vitamin A is only found in animal products. Many people have genetic defects that prevents their bodies from converting beta-carotene to Vitamin A efficiently. For some reason, food labeling laws in the US allow beta-carotene to be listed as vitamin A on labels. A vegan with this defect will easily have a vitamin A deficiency.

 

3. It would be very difficult for many people to get enough protein on a vegan diet: athletes, pregnant and breastfeeding women, and those like myself that seem to need more protein than average.

 

4. If you compare the amount of vitamins and minerals in a reasonable portion size, it becomes clear that meat is more nutrient dense than vegetables. Sure, a lb of kale might have more of XYZ than a lb of meat, but how many meals will it take you to eat a lb of kale? When you eat meat, you are indirectly getting the nutrients of all the plants the animal ate.

 

5. We don't have multiple stomachs and we can't spend all day eating like cows.

 

6. B12 is probably only available in animal products. Sure, vegans can supplement, but who knows what undiscovered nutrients are only in animal products that they are missing out on.

 

7. Sure, some people feel better initially on a vegan diet, but often they giving up junk and high grain diets at the same time. They might feel better if they had given up the junk but kept the meat. My dad tried a vegan diet for 5-6 weeks and he lost weight, but it didn't help his glucose levels enough. He switched to low carb and while the weight loss slowed, he feels much better and his glucose levels are almost normal. His blood pressure is also normal

now, for the first time, even with medication, in decades.

 

8. As far as treating animals well, we try to buy our meat from small local farmers.

 

9. Arguments about how much grains cows eat that people could eat are sort of irrelevant. Cows are meant to eat grass, not be locked up eating only corn.

Also, many animals can graze on land too rocky or hilly to be farmed.

[SJ.]

 

3. It would be very difficult for many people to get enough protein on a vegan diet: athletes, pregnant and breastfeeding women, and those like myself that seem to need more protein than average.

 

 

This is an incorrect assumption that athletes can not perform well on a plant based diet. Here you can find a list of vegan athletes: http://www.bestveganguide.com/vegan-athletes.html

 

It includes:

Jane Black has been a vegan since 1990 and has set many Masters National and World records in weightlifting. She is a former weightlifter who has won her class and received the Best Lifter trophy for her age group at the Masters World Weightlifting Championships in Canada in 1996.

 

Brendan Brazier is a professional Ironman triathlete and best-selling author on performance nutrition. He is a two time Canadian 50km Ultra Marathon Champion and holder of the 2003 and 2006 National 50km Ultra Marathon Championships.

 

Mac Danzig is an American professional mixed martial arts fighter and instructor and is also a former lightweight champion for the King of the Cage and Gladiator Challenge mixed martial arts organisations. He was the lightweight Extreme Challenge National Champion and the winner of The Ultimate Fighter 6.

 

Robert Hazeley is well known for being a slightly mature bodybuilder. He began bodybuilding in 1971. In 2005 he came second in Mr Wales, fourth in the British Championships, third in Mr England and sixth in World Power Lifting. He also came second in Mr Britain of that same year.

 

Scott Jurek is the multiple winner of 100-mile races and twice winner of the Badwater Ultra Marathon, which is run over a course of 135 miles. The race starts in Death Valley, at 280 feet below sea level and finishes at Mount Whitney Portal, which is 8.360 feet above sea level. That's a 135 miles course over three mountain ranges with a cumulative ascent of 13,000 feet and a cumulative descent of 4,700 feet.

 

Patrick J. Neshek is a Major League Baseball relief pitcher for the Minnesota Twins.

[WishboneDawn]

 

I am not a vegan, but I am mostly vegetarian (in a weak moment that happens a couple times a year I'll eat some chicken). What led me to vegetarianism is my distaste for factory farming. As part of the 52 books in 52 weeks challenge, I read Eating Animals (my review that I wrote at the time is here if you're interested). That book pushed me over the edge and I quit meat. Dairy and eggs are pretty bad too in terms of animal treatment, but I haven't quite been able to give up cheese yet. I have found a good source of cage free eggs however.

 

That being said, I don't judge meat eaters. Ignorance was bliss for me too...until I wasn't ignorant anymore. I couldn't ignore the fact 99% of meat in the US is factory farmed.

 

I think all of us have a responsibility to address issues around factory farming whether we eat meat and animals products or not. We now have free-range chickens of our own that produce our eggs (and entertainment :D), we raise free-range meat chickens in the summer and buy lamb and beef locally from good farms. Pork hasn't been addressed yet and milk is an issue here but we're working on that.

 

I think probably a lot of vegans, vegetarians and meat lovers have the same concerns around these issues. Our solutions are different of course but we're tired of factory farms.

[WishboneDawn]

BTW, on the meat loving, we have a pig we are raising for meat at the moment. Something just killed all of our chickens or that is where our eggs would be coming from. They soon will be again. Our children raise chickens for meat as well. Our freezer is stocked with beef from a cow that we raised and shared with some friends. I love meat, but it is my preference to know where it comes from. No, it doesn't always work out that way, but it is my preference.

 

We're looking at raising a pig or two next year. We're going to need another freezer though!

[ktgrok]

Really? I've met fat vegetarians but never a fat vegan.

 

I was a fat vegan.

[msjones]

I was a fat vegan.

 

What were you eating, if I may ask?

[JumpyTheFrog]

While it seems that there are some professional vegan athletes, I still think that many athletes probably do better eating meat. Do these professionals have trainers planning their meals out for them? High school and college athletes probably don't have the time or expertice that might be needed to plan a vegan diet that allows them peak performance.

[Soror]

If you check out paleo/primal/nt boards you'll find plenty of fat and formally unhealthy now ex-veg's. Those people have searched out other diets because even eating everything they were supposed to eat, whole foods etc they were poor served by a veg diet. It is not an odd occurrence.

 

I don't know any vegans here but a few veg's without exception they all at least 50 lbs overweight. Struggling with fertility problems, whole food vegs mind you. One family holistic dr ironically.

[Bluegoat]

Vegetarians don't get to ignore factory farming issues. Guess where most supermarket vegetables and fruits come from? Giant fertilizer and chemical intensive farms, and increasingly using GM seeds.

[ktgrok]

What were you eating, if I may ask?

 

Salad, veggies, beans, rice, potatoes, fruit. Some junk, as I was in college, but I couldn't afford a ton of junk. Lots of pasta with various sauces and veggies. I can't handle that carb level it turns out. I even ate very low fat for a while, with the only change being I lost muscle/strength and got dry skin.

 

I do much better on a lower carb, higher fat diet.

[JadeOrchidSong]

OK. The China Study. China is hardly a vegetarian culture (even amongst the poorest), never mind vegan, and certainly a traditional Chinese diet is not vegan or even vegetarian. So many of our heirloom/dual breed chickens originated in China and other parts of Asia, just as one very simple example. Fish and other meat broths are common and daily fare. I don't get how the author made the leap to no flesh or eggs at all, when none of the people studied were vegans. Sure, yes, those folks eat far less beef than a typical westerner, no doubt. Beef is costly. But those studied were not vegans. Eating a low meat diet doesn't make a no meat diet better/optimal. Some small amounts of eggs/flesh may well meet important dietary needs, especially for those in areas where there is winter. Anchovies might contribute to good health. :) The study did not study vegans. I feel so guilty saying that.

:iagree:

 

I have to chime in and say that the Chinese diet contains lots of veggies and fruit. For a typical dish, there is maybe 20 to 30% meat with 70 to 80% veggies. If people do cook meat, fish, and eggs by themselves without adding veggies to them, they will also make big amount of veggie stir fry to go with the meat dish.

 

For Americans, dessert may be cookies, cakes, ice cream, and other sweet stuff while "dessert" is usually fruit, or fruit based for Chinese. Usually after dinner Chinese serve fruit instead of a cheesecake for guests or themselves if there are no guests. The dishes contain much more veggies than meat. However, Chinese in America have developed sweet tooth after they live here for a few years. Cakes, ice cream, and cookies are served now after dinner, usually when there are guests. Still lots of veggies and fruit are consumed.

 

My MIL says about Chinese food, "Where is the meat?" while Chinese would ask the Americans about the dishes in restaurants, "Where is the vegetable?" I know lots of American people do choose to eat lots of veggies just as some Chinese choose to eat lots of meat.

[Soror]

Same here. Someone here mentioned that one can do low carb and vegan. I doubt it.

 

Not that I'd even want to....

 

Not by any normal definition of low carb. I do sometimes eat veg for religious reasons and I generally end up feeling sick w/ bg issues. That is eating no grains or processed foods(I generally don't do processed foods at all anyway), avoiding fruit, etc- it still is way too much for my body. If eat a lot of fish and eggs I can manage ok though.

[PeacefulChaos]

Well, we did a fast at the beginning of the year during which we ate a (basically) vegan diet. Only maybe a little stricter.

We only did it for 21 days. At the end of the time, I felt the best I have in a really long time. I felt healthy, and when I started introducing my regular junk food back in (ice cream, snack-type foods in particular) they made me sick and they made me feel disgusting. I realized at that point that I had, prior to the fast, gotten used to that feeling to a lesser extent. (I wasn't sick every day, for example, just from eating ice cream :lol: ) Over time, I got used to it again.

I personally don't mind the vegan idea other than I don't know how I'd live without cheese, ice cream, and sour cream (I seriously love sour cream - mmm, dip...) for the rest of my life. ;) The rest of my family, however, disagrees with going vegan at all! :lol: DH made it through the 21 days and had eggs, pancakes, and bacon for breakfast the next day. :D No, he didn't get sick. Go figure.

[kewb]

Personally, I would miss eggs, honey and cheese too much to make the leap.

[Rosie_0801]

Isn't that the truth. I love veggies and eat a lot of them, but when I overdo certain veggies...well you can imagine.

 

If you increase your fibre intake, you have to increase your water intake too. Otherwise, things you don't want to imagine will happen...

 

Just sayin'

 

TVP? Texturized vegetable protein - soy based.

 

No' date=' it was something used as a footnote. But thanks for replying :) I have no idea which box my book is packed into. I know it's not one of the top ones coz I just went out to check.

 

I still can't maintain a healthy level of B12 and feel good without supplements and meat in my diet.

 

Then that's what you should eat. Those who advocate low animal product diets would then say that you should eat what you require, and no more.

 

If our bodies were meant to live without animal products there would be a vegetable source of B12 available.

 

There used to be vegetable sources of B12. The vitamin content (not just B12) of all plant foods has dropped over time as the soil quality has dropped.

 

Same here. Someone here mentioned that one can do low carb and vegan. I doubt it.

 

It depends what you call low carb, I guess. If I'm eating not a lot more than my minimum requirements, I'd consider myself low carb even if I'm eating more carbs than you do.

 

Rosie

Edited October 25, 2011 by Rosie_0801

[Teachin'Mine]

No, it was something used as a footnote. But thanks for replying :) I have no idea which box my book is packed into. I know it's not one of the top ones coz I just went out to check.

 

Rosie

 

I've used TVP for many things, but never for a footnote. :lol:

 

Sorry - couldn't resist. YW :)

[Margaret in GA]

I think the absolute truth is we all need to eat at least 7 servings of fruits/veg a day and most of us don't even get half that amount. Vegan or Meat eater, if you are eating too much bread, pasta, corn chips... your diet is unhealthy. I think if you look at healthy vegans you will find people that consume their target veg/fruit. If you find healthy meat eaters, they are likewise eating mostly fruit and veg. I do firmly believe most people cannot tolerate dairy. At least in its current, available state. Nor should most people eat gluten-- at least not in the amounts they are consuming it.

Margaret

[Rosie_0801]

Who posted that China Study Fact or Fallacy link? That was a new one to me, and better than the others I'd read. Thanks!

 

:)

Rosie

[Joanne]

Why not for me:

 

I don't believe in the science used to support a vegan diet as superior, the design, or ideal.

 

I'm not against it, but instead against the assertion that it is "best" or how all humans should/are supposed to eat.

[WishboneDawn]

Why not for me:

 

I don't believe in the science used to support a vegan diet as superior, the design, or ideal.

 

I'm not against it, but instead against the assertion that it is "best" or how all humans should/are supposed to eat.

 

:iagree:

 

I think veganism is a reasonable, respectable choice and people can eat that way and be healthy. I just don't see any compelling health related evidence. The ethical arguments around factory farming are compelling but as I've said, I'm lucky because I can address those quite easily while still eating meat because of where I live.

[ktgrok]

Why not for me:

 

I don't believe in the science used to support a vegan diet as superior, the design, or ideal.

 

I'm not against it, but instead against the assertion that it is "best" or how all humans should/are supposed to eat.

 

:iagree:

[Janie Grace]

Why not for me:

 

I don't believe in the science used to support a vegan diet as superior, the design, or ideal.

 

I'm not against it, but instead against the assertion that it is "best" or how all humans should/are supposed to eat.

 

Can you point me to a resource that explains the holes in the supporting science? We have friends who are very evangelistic about their veganism (although they are, as someone mentioned, very thin, dry, angular and don't look healthy to me!). They give us books and send us links. Mostly I just fake interest and change the subject b/c I feel like our diet is FINE. But I'd like to read up on the other side (ie, MY side?).

[ktgrok]

Can you point me to a resource that explains the holes in the supporting science? We have friends who are very evangelistic about their veganism (although they are, as someone mentioned, very thin, dry, angular and don't look healthy to me!). They give us books and send us links. Mostly I just fake interest and change the subject b/c I feel like our diet is FINE. But I'd like to read up on the other side (ie, MY side?).

 

Primal resources would be a start. Try marksdailyapple.com. Also, there is a VERY VERY long critique of forks over knives that was mentioned in that thread, yesterday I believe. It disputes much of the pro vegan propaganda.

 

I was vegetarian for over a decade, vegan for two years, and honestly felt betrayed and lied to when I really started looking at the science.

 

However, the easiest argument is to say that if you were to live in the wild you would need animal products to survive. Therefore, it is the natural diet of humans.

[Janie Grace]

Primal resources would be a start. Try marksdailyapple.com. Also, there is a VERY VERY long critique of forks over knives that was mentioned in that thread, yesterday I believe. It disputes much of the pro vegan propaganda.

 

I was vegetarian for over a decade, vegan for two years, and honestly felt betrayed and lied to when I really started looking at the science.

 

However, the easiest argument is to say that if you were to live in the wild you would need animal products to survive. Therefore, it is the natural diet of humans.

 

Thanks! You'd need animal products to survive b/c fruits/nuts/veggies couldn't sustain you? Sorry if I'm being dense. Off to check out those resources.

[SJ.]

:iagree:

 

I have to chime in and say that the Chinese diet contains lots of veggies and fruit. For a typical dish, there is maybe 20 to 30% meat with 70 to 80% veggies. If people do cook meat, fish, and eggs by themselves without adding veggies to them, they will also make big amount of veggie stir fry to go with the meat dish.

 

For Americans, dessert may be cookies, cakes, ice cream, and other sweet stuff while "dessert" is usually fruit, or fruit based for Chinese. Usually after dinner Chinese serve fruit instead of a cheesecake for guests or themselves if there are no guests. The dishes contain much more veggies than meat. However, Chinese in America have developed sweet tooth after they live here for a few years. Cakes, ice cream, and cookies are served now after dinner, usually when there are guests. Still lots of veggies and fruit are consumed.

 

My MIL says about Chinese food, "Where is the meat?" while Chinese would ask the Americans about the dishes in restaurants, "Where is the vegetable?" I know lots of American people do choose to eat lots of veggies just as some Chinese choose to eat lots of meat.

 

Is this true for rural China? I thought the China study focused mainly on people in the rural areas of China and meat was rarely consumed. Now I am not quite sure, I'm also not sure of the location of my copy of the book.

[SJ.]

Thanks! You'd need animal products to survive b/c fruits/nuts/veggies couldn't sustain you? Sorry if I'm being dense. Off to check out those resources.

 

In the anthropology classes I have taken it was stressed that hunter/gatherer societies did not regularly eat meat and when they did it was small portions (because it had to be shared with everyone). Is this the idea of the primal and paleo diets? Or is meat eaten regularly?

[Janie Grace]

In the anthropology classes I have taken it was stressed that hunter/gatherer societies did not regularly eat meat and when they did it was small portions (because it had to be shared with everyone). Is this the idea of the primal and paleo diets? Or is meat eaten regularly?

 

I'm no expert but I've been reading that primal website and meat is a big component. Fruit/veggies is the biggest, but meats come next. No grains/sugar. It's kind of a more sensible Atkins.

[ktgrok]

In the anthropology classes I have taken it was stressed that hunter/gatherer societies did not regularly eat meat and when they did it was small portions (because it had to be shared with everyone). Is this the idea of the primal and paleo diets? Or is meat eaten regularly?

 

Meat is eaten regulaly, but so are vegetables. The idea that the societies ate only small amounts of meat I think has been disproven.

[ktgrok]

Is this true for rural China? I thought the China study focused mainly on people in the rural areas of China and meat was rarely consumed. Now I am not quite sure, I'm also not sure of the location of my copy of the book.

 

I posted a pretty good critique of the China study earlier in this thread. It doesn't say what the author of the book says that it says. If that makes sense.http://rawfoodsos.com/2010/07/07/the-china-study-fact-or-fallac/

Edited October 26, 2011 by ktgrok

[ktgrok]

Is this true for rural China? I thought the China study focused mainly on people in the rural areas of China and meat was rarely consumed. Now I am not quite sure, I'm also not sure of the location of my copy of the book.

 

http://rawfoodsos.com/2010/07/07/the-china-study-fact-or-fallac/

[ktgrok]

Thanks! You'd need animal products to survive b/c fruits/nuts/veggies couldn't sustain you? Sorry if I'm being dense. Off to check out those resources.

 

Well yeah, your woods or what not don't have rows of fresh produce. they do have edible plants, but the energy to gather them, or crack open the nuts, or what not would use up a lot of the energy you used to gather them. You might not eat bambi, but you'd need to eat grubs or what not. Watch and episode of survivor man sometime and it becomes clear very quickly.

[Janie Grace]

Well yeah, your woods or what not don't have rows of fresh produce. they do have edible plants, but the energy to gather them, or crack open the nuts, or what not would use up a lot of the energy you used to gather them. You might not eat bambi, but you'd need to eat grubs or what not. Watch and episode of survivor man sometime and it becomes clear very quickly.

 

I don't know about your woods, but MINE have rows of lettuce, beans and tomatoes this very moment. ;) Okay, that makes sense. Now I know why your user name is partially "grok"!

[ktgrok]

I don't know about your woods, but MINE have rows of lettuce, beans and tomatoes this very moment. ;) Okay, that makes sense. Now I know why your user name is partially "grok"!

 

Actually...it was grok long before I started the whole primal thing. It's from Stranger in a Strange Land. But it works for that too!

 

Oh, and I just double checked, and animal consumption varied by region, but estimates are about half of the calories of early people, and traditional hunter gatherer societies today. That includes fat, organs, etc. That means in volume they ate more plants, but by calorie it was half and half. And would NOT have included tofu or tempeh or beans/grains in any quantity.

[LibraryLover]

This is a great critique of the China Study, and the findings are surprising. http://rawfoodsos.com/2010/07/07/the-china-study-fact-or-fallac/

 

 

Somewhere in my wicked past, I have read that. Thanks for the link/ reminder. There are so many variables. The author points that out so well.

[Lady Florida.]

Why not for me:

 

I don't believe in the science used to support a vegan diet as superior, the design, or ideal.

 

I'm not against it, but instead against the assertion that it is "best" or how all humans should/are supposed to eat.

 

:iagree:This would be my short answer to the question posed by the OP.

[Audrey]

Anemia, for one. One dd has had problems with that. I have B12 deficiency so that is another reason not to be vegan. Then all of us need calcium which we get a lot from dairy products.

 

While I could potentially see some health benefits for vegetarianism (though not for that one dd nor me), I can't see any health benefits to veganism. It doesn't seem to be based on health but rather on a strange philosophy. I see no reason why dairy and eggs can;t be consumed since they don't kill any animals.

 

 

B12 deficiency is a common problem. So is protein deficiency. One has to work a little harder as a vegan to obtain essential nutrients, but it can be done and done well if you put some effort into acquiring nutritional knowledge.

 

People are vegan for all kinds of reasons, and those who have ethical reasons don't have a "strange philosophy" at all, IMO. They are opposed to the use of animals for food. While dairy and eggs don't DIRECTLY kill animals, the bulk of conventional egg and dairy farming does treat animals in undesirable, even abusive, ways.

 

That said, I eat meat. Every day. I even raise most of the meat I eat. I also eat eggs, and some dairy (never a big fan of dairy, but I still eat & cook with it). But, I walk outside to my little coop to get the eggs and I know how my hens are treated. I could never eat commercial eggs. I grew up having chickens and I can't eat a factory farmed egg. Those poor girls! It makes me ill to see how they're treated.

 

I get our dairy from the dairy farmer down the way, who happens to be my brother-in-law. I know how they treat their small herd, and how they produce their products, and I have no problem with that at all. I really wish he'd make more Greek-style yogurt, but that's his wife's whip to crack, not mine. ;)

 

At any rate, I think that food is a very personal decision. I make my decisions based on more than just my philosophy regarding animals, as I'm sure most vegans do as well. I wish everyone thought about their food more -- where it comes from, who produced it, how it was grown/raised, whether or not it was engineered, what benefits or harm it can do to your body.

[Audrey]

I personally would rather eat mostly vegetarian or vegan and only add in meat when needed and have that be "happy meat" than eat meat every day factory farmed. Personally. We use tax returns to fill up the deep freezer with a quarter of a very happy local cow, and that plus some chicken from the "farmer's market" store lasts us all year.

 

 

I understand your sentiment, but don't kid yourself. The cow isn't happy. It's dead. That's not too happy. It may have been raised in a humane manner, but I can assure you that the trip to the abbattoir is very scary for them, and certainly those moments right before they get the bolt between the eyes is not too happy either.

 

I'm not saying don't eat humanely raised meat. In fact, I support it wholeheartedly because that's how we raise our animals, but you should know that there is no such thing as a "happy" slaughtered animal. It just can't be done.

Edited October 26, 2011 by Audrey

[WishboneDawn]

B12 deficiency is a common problem. So is protein deficiency. One has to work a little harder as a vegan to obtain essential nutrients, but it can be done and done well if you put some effort into acquiring nutritional knowledge.

 

People are vegan for all kinds of reasons, and those who have ethical reasons don't have a "strange philosophy" at all, IMO. They are opposed to the use of animals for food. While dairy and eggs don't DIRECTLY kill animals, the bulk of conventional egg and dairy farming does treat animals in undesirable, even abusive, ways.

 

That said, I eat meat. Every day. I even raise most of the meat I eat. I also eat eggs, and some dairy (never a big fan of dairy, but I still eat & cook with it). But, I walk outside to my little coop to get the eggs and I know how my hens are treated. I could never eat commercial eggs. I grew up having chickens and I can't eat a factory farmed egg. Those poor girls! It makes me ill to see how they're treated.

 

I get our dairy from the dairy farmer down the way, who happens to be my brother-in-law. I know how they treat their small herd, and how they produce their products, and I have no problem with that at all. I really wish he'd make more Greek-style yogurt, but that's his wife's whip to crack, not mine. ;)

 

At any rate, I think that food is a very personal decision. I make my decisions based on more than just my philosophy regarding animals, as I'm sure most vegans do as well. I wish everyone thought about their food more -- where it comes from, who produced it, how it was grown/raised, whether or not it was engineered, what benefits or harm it can do to your body.

 

:iagree: Great post.