dragons in the flower bed Posted October 6, 2011 Share Posted October 6, 2011 My ex-partner and I had a custody plan for this week. It was that he would take the boys from Friday morning to Monday morning. (We are in court, but there's no order yet. Ex has never lived with us. The boys have always resided with me.) I asked him to take the boys to a birthday party this afternoon because I was feeling unwell. I very clearly stated, and he acknowledged, that they should be home before six for dinner. Now he's refusing to return them. I know it's just one night and not a big deal. But we had plans for tonight. Not big plans. The boys' favorite dinner and having stopped at an exciting point in our read-aloud. We'd have probably had no problem saving those things for later with a little bit of forewarning. What is really bothering me is that he said, 'I will not return them and there's nothing you can do, so there.' I could call the cops, but that will terrify the kids. Now he has told the kids they are getting an exciting evening with dad and I am denying them him. I can be the bigger person for the kids' sake, but I HATE THIS and no one I know IRL seems to think it's a big deal. Is it not a big deal? Convince me it's not a big deal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean in Newcastle Posted October 6, 2011 Share Posted October 6, 2011 Let it go. Document what happened and make sure it gets brought up in court. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starr Posted October 6, 2011 Share Posted October 6, 2011 I am sorry. :( It is a big deal if it's the beginning of plans being constantly changed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrothead Posted October 6, 2011 Share Posted October 6, 2011 Does he drive a red truck? I ask because I had to deal with a jerk today also, Just wondering how many there could be in the world. Maybe it is "Be a Jerk Thursday." I'm sorry you are having to deal with this. :grouphug: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Impish Posted October 6, 2011 Share Posted October 6, 2011 He's playing 'keep away' with the kids. To me, that's a honkin big deal. He's right on one thing...there's no custody order, so you can't do diddly, even calling the police would net you nothing. No custody order = both are assumed to have completely equal custody, no primary at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
********* Posted October 6, 2011 Share Posted October 6, 2011 :blink: That's, uh, hmmm. That's less than nice of him. Doesn't he realize that if there's no custody order, that you don't have to let him take the kids at ALL? (Not that you'd want to deny your children their father. I'm just saying you don't HAVE to let him take them.) And yes, if you insist (by calling the cops) that he bring them home, you're totally the bad guy in the kids' eyes. So, yeah, he got his way. But things do seem to even out in the end. I've had plenty of experience with just biting my tongue regarding my stepkids visitation and whatnot. I know it totally stinks that he has this control right now, but hey, at least look at it this way; the way he's trying to 'get to you' is by spending extra time with his kids. And in the end, that's really not bad. (Assuming, of course, that whatever he's doing with them is ok). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
annandatje Posted October 6, 2011 Share Posted October 6, 2011 I am sorry you are going through a difficult situation with your former partner, and I am sorry that he is willing to be an emotionally manipulative s**t. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JudoMom Posted October 6, 2011 Share Posted October 6, 2011 That stinks, Rose, and I'm sorry he's being a jerk :grouphug::grouphug::grouphug:. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gingersmom Posted October 6, 2011 Share Posted October 6, 2011 It's a very big deal. I would get into court asap and get temporary visitation order. I would also call the police. Sadly I have lots of experience with this. You need to have this documented. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragons in the flower bed Posted October 6, 2011 Author Share Posted October 6, 2011 I am sorry that he is willing to be an emotionally manipulative s**t. You made me smile. I was refraining from calling him names. Thank you for doing it for me. He dropped the two big kids off at home. He is playing favorites. I am ready to use the h word. Er, the one about how much it's possible not to like someone anymore. Even the friend I can usually count on to offer to hire someone to punch him is tired of this and saying it isn't a big deal. Thanks for being sympathetic. I just needed some sympathy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elegantlion Posted October 6, 2011 Share Posted October 6, 2011 :grouphug::grouphug::grouphug: I'm sorry. I wish I had something encouraging to say. I wish I was close enough to come share a meal with you and let you read-aloud to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laughing lioness Posted October 6, 2011 Share Posted October 6, 2011 Like Jean said, document, document, document. Bullying is a big deal but don't sabatoge yourself or your kids. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragons in the flower bed Posted October 6, 2011 Author Share Posted October 6, 2011 It's a very big deal. I would get into court asap and get temporary visitation order. I would also call the police. Sadly I have lots of experience with this. You need to have this documented. How do you suggest I document it? I called my lawyer first thing. Waiting for a call back. I really don't want to call the police. I don't want to get ugly, be dramatic, or fight in front of the kids, especially not the little one. I went to court and filed a petition for fifty-fifty custody a few weeks ago, because he has been threatening to do this sort of thing on a larger scale (i.e., 'I will take him and insist you get supervised visitation only'). I figured it looked better for me if I was asking for something sane rather than if I was defending myself against something insane. So that's in the works. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MelissaMinNC Posted October 6, 2011 Share Posted October 6, 2011 :grouphug: :grouphug: It seems like a big deal to me. I have no advice for you, but this makes me sad for you, so more :grouphug: . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragons in the flower bed Posted October 6, 2011 Author Share Posted October 6, 2011 :grouphug::grouphug::grouphug: I'm sorry. I wish I had something encouraging to say. I wish I was close enough to come share a meal with you and let you read-aloud to me. That is calming! :) I have read-alouds going with a bunch of my (entirely grown-up) friends. Does that make us dorks? I've got Ender's Game going with one friend, Earthsea with another, just finish LOTR with one, and occasionally get some Golden Compass in with another. What book would we read together? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laughing lioness Posted October 6, 2011 Share Posted October 6, 2011 How do you suggest I document it? if I was defending myself against something insane. So that's in the works. Write everything down, date, details. Is his name on the birth certificate? If not, it's kidnapping. Get your lawyer to get on your case and get things settled asap. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simka2 Posted October 6, 2011 Share Posted October 6, 2011 :grouphug::grouphug::grouphug:Oh, I feel for you! I am glad you called your lawyer. That starts the documentation, keep a log of your contact with the lawyer. I would even write out a timeline of what happened and when what call were made. That then is backed up by your lawyer...make sense? :grouphug::grouphug::grouphug: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheryl in NM Posted October 6, 2011 Share Posted October 6, 2011 My ex-partner and I had a custody plan for this week. It was that he would take the boys from Friday morning to Monday morning. (We are in court, but there's no order yet. Ex has never lived with us. The boys have always resided with me.) I asked him to take the boys to a birthday party this afternoon because I was feeling unwell. I very clearly stated, and he acknowledged, that they should be home before six for dinner. Now he's refusing to return them. I know it's just one night and not a big deal. But we had plans for tonight. Not big plans. The boys' favorite dinner and having stopped at an exciting point in our read-aloud. We'd have probably had no problem saving those things for later with a little bit of forewarning. What is really bothering me is that he said, 'I will not return them and there's nothing you can do, so there.' I could call the cops, but that will terrify the kids. Now he has told the kids they are getting an exciting evening with dad and I am denying them him. I can be the bigger person for the kids' sake, but I HATE THIS and no one I know IRL seems to think it's a big deal. Is it not a big deal? Convince me it's not a big deal. :grouphug: BTDT! :grouphug: What kids will remember when they grow up is that they either had a good time or that Mom threw a fit and cost them a good time. I'm not saying you threw a fit or planned to throw a fit. But that's what they will remember. They are excited for time with Dad, they will be excited to continue the read-aloud when they get home and you will cook their favorite again. It's okay, really! It feels like a big deal and it really might be right now, BUT it won't be a big deal in the long run. That said, make a note of this and every single time it happens. Take it to court with you. Present it, without emotion, to the judge. He needs to know that this man is in the habit of not honoring his arrangements with you. This is important. Dh did not do this for us and it was a problem the whole childhood of the kids. Try to nip this in the bud, but use the judge. The judge will NOT be happy with this behavior. If this happens repeatedly write the judge a letter, you might get some relief from the situation. Judges hate it when someone breaks the agreement. :grouphug: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheryl in NM Posted October 6, 2011 Share Posted October 6, 2011 Write everything down, date, details. Is his name on the birth certificate? If not, it's kidnapping. Get your lawyer to get on your case and get things settled asap. Is he really kidnapping if she agrees that he is the father is in negotiations for shared custody? Someone on the birth certificate could kidnap the child as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oakblossoms Posted October 6, 2011 Share Posted October 6, 2011 Legally they aren't all his right. Kind of rude, but he doesn't seem like a flake to me...but hey I don't really know him. Just the virtual him. I would worry if he has been making progressively bad or harmful choices. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swellmomma Posted October 6, 2011 Share Posted October 6, 2011 Document, Document Document. Since this is already going to court add it to the pile to show the nonsense he is pulling. Once the kids are all home and safe I would send a registered letter to him and your attorney, saying that do to the recent refusal to return the children after a visit that all unsupervised visits would cease until the court order is in place. That you would love for him to come spend some time with the kids at your house or with a 3rd party you both agree to. That way the courts can't say you are denying access yet it also prevents him from playing this mind game with you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bzymom Posted October 6, 2011 Share Posted October 6, 2011 How incredibly selfish. I am sorry you are going through this. Wouldn't it be lovely if all the adults could act like adults? I agree with the PP. Document it all, and consider getting in touch with an attorney quickly to put a temporary order in place. If he is going to play keep away with the children to flex his muscles, he clearly needs some accountability. :grouphug: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jilly Posted October 6, 2011 Share Posted October 6, 2011 It is a big deal because he agreed to one thing, and then decided to do whatever he wanted. You need to document everything in case this becomes a pattern, as the court would need to know the history. I know how frustrating this can be. :grouphug: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emmy Posted October 6, 2011 Share Posted October 6, 2011 Rose, I am so sorry to hear you and your partner have separated. I haven't been on the boards much so if this is old news, I apologize for being so out of it. This situation is a big deal. Calling to say - may I keep the kids for the evening is not a big deal, saying - I will not bring them home and there's nothing you can do about it, is huge. :grouphug: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragons in the flower bed Posted October 6, 2011 Author Share Posted October 6, 2011 Does he drive a red truck? I ask because I had to deal with a jerk today also, just wondering how many there could be in the world. Ha! :auto: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragons in the flower bed Posted October 7, 2011 Author Share Posted October 7, 2011 Doesn't he realize that if there's no custody order, that you don't have to let him take the kids at ALL? (Not that you'd want to deny your children their father. I'm just saying you don't HAVE to let him take them.) Yes. I think he just figured this out and he is taking advantage of not having to let me have them at all. My youngest son is a mama's boy through and through, hates being away from me for very long, tends to cry when separated from me. I'm hoping that the ex will see this, feel guilty, and bring him home. I don't think he could be that mean to his son. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amey311 Posted October 7, 2011 Share Posted October 7, 2011 Regarding how to document: Just get a notebook (or start a file on the computer) and write down what happened and when. If you have email correspondence, save that. same with text messages or voice mail messages. If there's a way to download those and save them so your phone isn't clogged up with messages from the ex that you need to save, then do that. IT can be as simple as: Monday, October 3, 2011. 6pm (or "evening" or "after dinner" or some other time marker). Spoke with Ex about arrangements for this weekend. We agreed that he would pick up the boys Friday evening and return them Monday between lunch and dinner. Thursday, October 6, 2011. 8am. Spoke with Ex. I was feeling unwell and asked him if he could please pick up the boys at 3pm to take them to John Doe's birthday party and return them after said party. Party was 4-6. Ex agreed. Thursday October 6, 2011. 530pm. Ex called. Explained that since he had the children he was keeping them and would return them on Monday. [include any exact dialog if you remember it]. Reminded Ex that he had agreed to return the boys after the party. Explained about evening plans. Ex said [dialog]. Thursday 6pm. Called James Brown, attorney, re: ex refusing to return children. Was told ABC. And so on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gingersmom Posted October 7, 2011 Share Posted October 7, 2011 How do you suggest I document it? I called my lawyer first thing. Waiting for a call back. I really don't want to call the police. I don't want to get ugly, be dramatic, or fight in front of the kids, especially not the little one. I went to court and filed a petition for fifty-fifty custody a few weeks ago, because he has been threatening to do this sort of thing on a larger scale (i.e., 'I will take him and insist you get supervised visitation only'). I figured it looked better for me if I was asking for something sane rather than if I was defending myself against something insane. So that's in the works. I would call the police and have them make a report. You need to protect your rights and your children's rights. When your kids are home you can sit them down and discuss with them why you had to call the police. I had the police at my house more times than I would like to remember. They were amazing with my children. I hope this is the last time he tries to do anything like this. :grouphug: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jenL Posted October 7, 2011 Share Posted October 7, 2011 Yes, this is a big deal, and you have a right to feel upset by his actions. He is manipulating the situation and being unkind. Sending you :grouphug: and agreeing with others that you need to begin documenting things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the evolving homemaker Posted October 7, 2011 Share Posted October 7, 2011 yikes. i would be worried. who is to say he won't do it for good at some point? not to scare you, but i am with the others who say to get it documented. there is certainly something you can do as in call the police, i am not sure the best course of action. can you call your lawyer and ask what you should do? good luck. that is actually scary to me. what do you mean i can't have my kids back...esp. if he doesn't have rights. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragons in the flower bed Posted October 7, 2011 Author Share Posted October 7, 2011 Rose, I am so sorry to hear you and your partner have separated. I haven't been on the boards much so if this is old news, I apologize for being so out of it. No, I was trying to avoid airing our dirty laundry. I made a very quiet in-case-this-gets-confusing announcement on my blog, and that is all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2cents Posted October 7, 2011 Share Posted October 7, 2011 I know that is annoying to deal with this when you aren't feeling well but looking at it from ex's pov, maybe he thought he was helping you out? Giving you extra time to get better? It is probably easier for him to keep the kids overnite rather than returning them and picking them up again. Maybe this is one of those things you need to let go. Ex knows it is not cool now so hopefully this will be the last time it happens or at least he oks it through you beforehand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheryl in NM Posted October 7, 2011 Share Posted October 7, 2011 I know that is annoying to deal with this when you aren't feeling well but looking at it from ex's pov, maybe he thought he was helping you out? Giving you extra time to get better? It is probably easier for him to keep the kids overnite rather than returning them and picking them up again. Maybe this is one of those things you need to let go. Ex knows it is not cool now so hopefully this will be the last time it happens or at least he oks it through you beforehand. Did you miss the part where he didn't offer or ask to keep the kids, he told her he was keeping them and there was nothing she could do about it? I think that's what upset her. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supertechmom Posted October 7, 2011 Share Posted October 7, 2011 You can record the voice mails with a recorder. Put it against the receiver and play them. Then start a file with the date, time of phone call, and transcribe the calls. Word for word including hums,pauses and garbled text. With the tape, they will be admissible in court. My sis and I used this technique in her very, extremely, ugly divorce. Buy a calendar and mark every single transaction on it. Make another file to give explit details for each date. Do this now...go as far back as you can remember and do it from now on as each thing happens. Good and bad. Document everything. .:grouphug: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
happyhomemaker Posted October 7, 2011 Share Posted October 7, 2011 Document, Document Document. Since this is already going to court add it to the pile to show the nonsense he is pulling. Once the kids are all home and safe I would send a registered letter to him and your attorney, saying that do to the recent refusal to return the children after a visit that all unsupervised visits would cease until the court order is in place. That you would love for him to come spend some time with the kids at your house or with a 3rd party you both agree to. That way the courts can't say you are denying access yet it also prevents him from playing this mind game with you. :iagree::iagree: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragons in the flower bed Posted October 7, 2011 Author Share Posted October 7, 2011 IT can be as simple as: Monday, October 3, 2011. 6pm (or "evening" or "after dinner" or some other time marker). Spoke with Ex about arrangements for this weekend. We agreed that he would pick up the boys Friday evening and return them Monday between lunch and dinner. Way helpful example! Thank you! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
texasmama Posted October 7, 2011 Share Posted October 7, 2011 He's playing 'keep away' with the kids. To me, that's a honkin big deal. He's right on one thing...there's no custody order, so you can't do diddly, even calling the police would net you nothing. No custody order = both are assumed to have completely equal custody, no primary at all. :iagree: I'm sorry. That would bother me a lot. I hope you can get a court order quickly.:grouphug: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragons in the flower bed Posted October 7, 2011 Author Share Posted October 7, 2011 I know that is annoying to deal with this when you aren't feeling well but looking at it from ex's pov, maybe he thought he was helping you out? Giving you extra time to get better? It is probably easier for him to keep the kids overnite rather than returning them and picking them up again. I might have agreed put that way. He started right in on the yelling when I initially said no. You know that kind of yelling on news interviews when they stick a right winger and a left winger together, where one can't get a word in because as soon as the other opens his mouth the first smooshed his words closer together and gets louder? It was like that. I'm not like that. I will always be the quiet person rolling her eyes and sighing deeply while the other shouts. But he isn't an evil person by any means. He isn't abusive. He is scared and hurt about losing his family and he's dealing with it very badly. I would like to think that he has good intentions, but I'm certain he is just lashing out. He's capable of being nice nicely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
newlifemom Posted October 7, 2011 Share Posted October 7, 2011 I'm so sorry Rose. I hope you two will be able to come to an agreement beneficial to all. :grouphug: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragons in the flower bed Posted October 7, 2011 Author Share Posted October 7, 2011 Legally they aren't all his right. Kind of rude, but he doesn't seem like a flake to me...but hey I don't really know him. Just the virtual him. I would worry if he has been making progressively bad or harmful choices. Yeah, only the youngest is biologically his, but that has never ever mattered in our interactions with them and it still doesn't. His lawyer thinks (and I was excited by it) that he can make a case for the bigger boys. He's a common law stepparent and in some cases there are stepparent rights. I would LOVE IT if he could have parental rights for the bigger boys, even if he is being scary a lot of the time. Hausunterricht, did you friend him on FB or something like that? It kind of freaks me out a little to think of him infiltrating the WTM. (Not that I would ever ever say something on here I wouldn't say in court. I know it can all be found and might.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amey311 Posted October 7, 2011 Share Posted October 7, 2011 Way helpful example! Thank you! No problem. I'm sure he could argue that you made it all up, but don't worry about that now. If nothing else, it will help your memory if you need to create a timeline of events. Disclaimer: all my legal information comes from watching television small claims court. Those judges do seem to at least read someone else's personal notes of a situation. The more mental cues you include, the better it might be. ("Ex said he was in the car on the way to the grocery store while he was calling" "I had to call him back to continue the conversation because Youngest Son had spilled grape juice all over the carpet in the hall") Or whatever. You know how that can help you when you're trying to help someone else remember what happened? IN the meantime, I'm sorry he's being difficult and it's gracious of you to be able to think calmly about the reasons for his actions. Still, "better to have and don't need, than need and don't have" so assume you'll need lots of documentation and records. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elegantlion Posted October 7, 2011 Share Posted October 7, 2011 That is calming! :) I have read-alouds going with a bunch of my (entirely grown-up) friends. Does that make us dorks? I've got Ender's Game going with one friend, Earthsea with another, just finish LOTR with one, and occasionally get some Golden Compass in with another. What book would we read together? I'd let you pick. ;) Something set in a forest would be nice. I remember the tree you painted in one room and that inspired me to want to paint walls. We moved and haven't done it yet, but we have a tree theme in our classroom. (sorry for the hijack) Way helpful example! Thank you! Another thing while documenting to set the date would be to e-mail yourself the document so it has a date/time verified on it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2cents Posted October 7, 2011 Share Posted October 7, 2011 Did you miss the part where he didn't offer or ask to keep the kids, he told her he was keeping them and there was nothing she could do about it? I think that's what upset her. Well yes I got that and addressed it. I explained that he knows by her reaction that it is not cool and hopefully won't do it again. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audrey Posted October 7, 2011 Share Posted October 7, 2011 I have: 1. A big dog 2. A big shovel. Which one would you like me to use on him? I could also use both in any order of your preference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denisemomof4 Posted October 7, 2011 Share Posted October 7, 2011 :grouphug:He is being a jerk, and you are being the mature and loving parent by doing what will be right for your boys. I agree with everyone else, document, document, DOCUMENT!!!:grouphug: I hope you are feeling better! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragons in the flower bed Posted October 7, 2011 Author Share Posted October 7, 2011 Oh, Audrey. You always know how to make me feel better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joanne Posted October 7, 2011 Share Posted October 7, 2011 Many hugs. I hate to (have to) say this, but he's shown what he is capable of and willing to "do". Prepare and expect it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OnTheBrink Posted October 7, 2011 Share Posted October 7, 2011 I think it's a huge deal and I agree with the advice to document it all. Sorry you're going through this. :grouphug: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cammie Posted October 7, 2011 Share Posted October 7, 2011 From a former divorce attorney... This is a big deal. Get yourself a day planner that you use just for custody/kid related things. Put all this in there. Put in "took the kids to the dentist." Put in "ex called to talk to kids." Put in "ex refused to return kids." All of it. Push for a temporary parenting plan either through agreement or through the court ASAP. Try and stay calm. Don't get the police involved for this type of thing yet. Try and weather this out until a formal order is in place. Then when he violates that order...it is contempt of court. Good luck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swellmomma Posted October 7, 2011 Share Posted October 7, 2011 reported, and the other threads too Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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