I know this is controversial but I can't help it...

[Heather in Neverland]

I loathe the Pearls, their books, anything to do with them. Truly LOATHE them with a fiery passion. Did anyone else see this on Anderson Cooper's blog?

 

http://ac360.blogs.cnn.com/2011/08/15/video-spare-the-rod-spoil-the-child/?hpt=ac_mid

 

And part two

http://ac360.blogs.cnn.com/2011/08/16/video-spare-the-rod-spoil-the-child-part-2/?hpt=ac_t1

 

 

I want to cry and scream and then use the same punishment on those parents AND the Pearls.

[FaithManor]

The Pearls are repulsive and dangerous crack pots to boot.

 

I wish there was some way to slap them in jail for a nice extended period.

 

Faith

[Perry]

I was just coming to post this. Just heartbreaking.

[ChristusG]

Wow.....wow...I have no words. Those parents are not spanking. They are torturing their children. There is a HUGE difference.

[dancer67]

The Pearls are repulsive and dangerous crack pots to boot.

 

I wish there was some way to slap them in jail for a nice extended period.

 

Faith

 

:iagree::iagree:

[mom2scouts]

This is a big difference between discipline (even punishment) and abuse. The Pearls don't know the difference and their teachings are dangerous.

[Hedgehog]

Wow.....wow...I have no words. Those parents are not spanking. They are torturing their children. There is a HUGE difference.

 

:iagree:

 

The whole thing is a mockery. Discipline should not be dangerous or humiliating, whatever form it comes in.

[thescrappyhomeschooler]

 

I want to cry and scream and then use the same punishment on those parents AND the Pearls.

 

 

:iagree:

[CarenM]

Its beyond comprehension.

 

Sad

[TheAutumnOak]

Wow.....wow...I have no words. Those parents are not spanking. They are torturing their children. There is a HUGE difference.

 

:iagree:

[Jennifer in MI]

Absolutely disgusting. Seven hours? They beat her for 7 hours????? I'm in tears.

[Negin]

Absolutely horrible.

How do these people get away with this?

[matermagistra]

I haven't read the articles you linked to yet, though I plan to.

 

When I was a young parent, these books were given to us and we used them for a time.

 

And then I saw Michael Pearl speak in person. My husband I were both extremely put-off by his manner. He was very arrogant and said some really horrible things. I know the one that really upset me the most was his passionate blanket statement that "all public school teachers were nothing but perverts."

 

Obviously I home educate. But I know many fine, morally upstanding people who teach. I was truly offended at his manner and his arrogance. I just shrivel up when I think of him. I would say that not everything in his books is bad-there is probably some good stuff in there but it is hard for me to even begin to think about following any of his advice now after seeing him in person.

 

I very much prefer the parenting style advocated by Nicholeen Peck at her website http://www.teachingselfgovernment.com Her methods are firm, yet child affirming and the end result is a child who gradually learns how to govern themselves toward right behavior. I discovered her through the Thomas Jefferson Education camp and I think she rocks!!

 

Off to read the articles you linked now...

Edited August 17, 2011 by matermagistra

[laughing lioness]

Every time thier name comes up, this is what comes to mind:

 

Not many of you should presume to be teachers, my brothers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly. James 3:1

 

The whole situation is a tragedy. Tragic for the girls, tragic for the parents, tragic for the children in foster care.

[forty-two]

The thing that makes the Pearls so dangerous is that they can make really horrifying, totally out there stuff seem completely reasonable. I read To Train Up a Child as research. Even though I was biased against the Pearls from the start, plus completely against spanking in all forms, I found TTUAC scarily persuasive. I had to quit reading midway through because I was starting to see the really out there, even abusive, advice as reasonable. And that even though I vehemently disagreed with them going in. How much worse does it affect the people who read it with a neutral or positive impression going in?

[DawnM]

I have not read the Pearls EVER, they have always reeked of fundamentalism to me, however, I don't think even they would suggest the extreme this family went to to punish their child.

 

What did really bother me though was that their first response when they found out what had happened was, "Well, we wanted to find out if WE would be implicated in this." :glare: Their first response should be, "How could someone have taken our teaching to such horrible extremes? This is terrible."

 

Dawn

[Impish]

Wow.....wow...I have no words. Those parents are not spanking. They are torturing their children. There is a HUGE difference.

:iagree:

I had never even heard of the Pearls before joining the Hive. Haven't read anything they've written.

 

While what I have heard is repugnant (hence why I haven't read anything), these parents chose to beat their child to death. There's something seriously wrong with the parents, imo, and while they might claim that what the Pearls wrote justifies their actions, I honestly don't see how any rational, thinking human being could get 'beat your child for seven hours' from ANY book, no matter how repellant.

 

These parents chose to torture those poor babies. Saying a book made them do it just negates their personal responsibility, imo.

[kmp]

So sad.

[MrsJewelsRae]

Several years ago, when my oldest was a baby, I was given the book "To Train Up a Child". It was touted to me as the most amazing parenting book ever by the family that gave it to us. They loved it so much they bought whole cases of it to give to everyone. :scared: They barely knew us, being newly acquainted, we had them as guests in our home. After reading the book and being so thoroughly disgusted and horrified, I actually ripped the book up and threw it in our fireplace. I've never read anything so disturbing, and the fact that they pass it off as Biblical and Christian is so upsetting. This is not the way God and Christ calls us to parent, we are to show love, grace and mercy. It saddens and angers me that so many people are so easily led astray by teachings such as these. The thing is, they dangle a carrot to you in the book, they make promises of cheerfully obedient, happy children in no time at all if you quickly instill their methods into your home, and many people buy into it. :crying: But the parents who choose to use this in their home are the ones to blame, no one made them beat their child, though the Pearls obviously hold some responsibility in it. I agree with others, Michael and Debbi Pearl are very arrogant, they brag endlessly about how even their children knew how to parent better than others and would often, as children, correct others parenting to their faces! The Pearls give these anecdotes with pride- do they not see this as a blemish in their supposedly perfect children? Self pride is evident on every page of their books, it's revolting.

Edited August 17, 2011 by MrsJewelsRae

[Hedgehog]

While what I have heard is repugnant (hence why I haven't read anything), these parents chose to beat their child to death. There's something seriously wrong with the parents, imo, and while they might claim that what the Pearls wrote justifies their actions, I honestly don't see how any rational, thinking human being could get 'beat your child for seven hours' from ANY book, no matter how repellant.

 

These parents chose to torture those poor babies. Saying a book made them do it just negates their personal responsibility, imo.

 

Good point.

[bbkaren]

Something tells me I don't even want to click those links or read anymore in this thread - I've never heard of these people and it's probably best to keep it that way! :mad:

[laughing lioness]

computer glitch

[jubilation]

I have not read the Pearls EVER, they have always reeked of fundamentalism to me, however, I don't think even they would suggest the extreme this family went to to punish their child.

 

What did really bother me though was that their first response when they found out what had happened was, "Well, we wanted to find out if WE would be implicated in this." :glare: Their first response should be, "How could someone have taken our teaching to such horrible extremes? This is terrible."

 

Dawn

 

:( I agree. Granted, the interview may have been edited to make the Pearls look even worse than they really are, but their apparent lack of concern for anything but themselves was astounding.

[matermagistra]

I have not read the Pearls EVER, they have always reeked of fundamentalism to me, however, I don't think even they would suggest the extreme this family went to to punish their child.

 

What did really bother me though was that their first response when they found out what had happened was, "Well, we wanted to find out if WE would be implicated in this." :glare: Their first response should be, "How could someone have taken our teaching to such horrible extremes? This is terrible."

 

Dawn

 

Yes! I didn't see any signs of sadness or grief over the fact that their book (even if the parents took it further than the Pearls advocate in their book) at least in some way contributed to the death of a precious child. Debi was smiling throughout the entire interview! It made feel sick at my stomach.

[i.love.lucy]

I know the AC story was current, but wasn't this story from a while ago? The father has already been convicted. I seem to remember the name Shotz.

 

Anyways, watching the story made me physically nauseous, and I am not against spanking. I had never seen the Pearls before and he is definitely arrogant. They way he said he reviewed the case to see if any blame might be placed on him.

 

Disgusting.

[Pamela H in Texas]

I believe strongly in personal responsibility and fact is that the Pearls do not advocate 7 hour torture sessions that end in death. The parents were out of control. Of course, then there are considerations of why these two particular children, but that is another topic.

 

However, I do think the Pearls (and by extension, those involved to any degree with them) are partially to blame also. When you decide to preach or write a book, you are responsible for what you put in that and where it can lead. When you tout a book, you do similarly. Ideally, it is leading to mercy and peace and love. In this case, it has led to many cases of child abuse.

 

This isn't the first child to die because parents took the Pearls' teaching too far and it won't be the last. Since they are working on four other books, I hope they choose their wording and attitudes more carefully. I hope they address the parts where people can go wrong. Why NOT try to prevent the next death even if they are going to make similar suggestions?

 

It is most sad to me that they miss the whole message of the scriptures as well as the HUNDREDS of verses which would leave a parent to be kind, gentle, loving, persistent, consistent, helpful, guiding, mindful, and careful. Even if you interpret those verses to mean what they believe it does, why on earth would you discount the rest of the scriptures when creating a discipline plan?

[JulieH]

Many years ago, I learned of this book in another homeschool forum and everyone was raving about it in a thread..how it was SOOOOO much better and kinder than the Ezzo's. I bought the book, having no idea what it was about really.

 

I remember starting to read it and as soon as it mentioned "switching your infant" I almost threw up. I tossed the book.

 

I think it's a training manual for child abuse and the author's should be held accountable in some way.

[Jennifer3141]

Many years ago, I learned of this book in another homeschool forum and everyone was raving about it in a thread..how it was SOOOOO much better and kinder than the Ezzo's. I bought the book, having no idea what it was about really.

 

I remember starting to read it and as soon as it mentioned "switching your infant" I almost threw up. I tossed the book.

 

I think it's a training manual for child abuse and the author's should be held accountable in some way.

 

I remember someone at a MOPS meeting going on and on and on about the Pearl's and how wonderful it was that her kids didn't make a sound for 13 hours all night long.

 

I could not run out of that meeting fast enough. I remember looking down ar DD who was all of 8 pounds at 2 months old and just utterly freaking out. :(

Edited August 17, 2011 by Jennifer3141

[matermagistra]

I believe strongly in personal responsibility and fact is that the Pearls do not advocate 7 hour torture sessions that end in death. The parents were out of control. Of course, then there are considerations of why these two particular children, but that is another topic.]

 

I wondered if anyone else noticed this too. It appears that only the adopted children were subjected to this. No mention was made of it happening to their biological children.

[Reeciecup]

I had never even heard of the Pearls before joining the Hive. Haven't read anything they've written.

 

While what I have heard is repugnant (hence why I haven't read anything), these parents chose to beat their child to death. There's something seriously wrong with the parents, imo, and while they might claim that what the Pearls wrote justifies their actions, I honestly don't see how any rational, thinking human being could get 'beat your child for seven hours' from ANY book, no matter how repellant.

 

These parents chose to torture those poor babies. Saying a book made them do it just negates their personal responsibility, imo.

:iagree::iagree::iagree:

 

Absolutely! There are a million inappropriate books out there, but blaming this tragedy on a book is a tragedy itself. These abusive parents should not be able to divert the blame from themselves by blaming some crackpot book.

 

I've not read the book, but I can't imagine that it would recommend 7 hour beatings. And even if it did, it's still the parents' fault for following such crackpot advice.

[Ellie]

These people are evil. They had their own agenda when they read the Pearls' books and totally twisted everything they wrote.

[Impish]

:iagree::iagree::iagree:

 

Absolutely! There are a million inappropriate books out there, but blaming this tragedy on a book is a tragedy itself. These abusive parents should not be able to divert the blame from themselves by blaming some crackpot book.

 

I've not read the book, but I can't imagine that it would recommend 7 hour beatings. And even if it did, it's still the parents' fault for following such crackpot advice.

Interesting thing is that the DA was the one blaming the book. No mention was made of the parent's claiming anything was based upon it.

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm not defending the Pearls. Again, haven't read any of their writing, and have no intention to do so.

 

That being said, a person can read *anything* and twist it, but it doesn't make the author responsible, it makes the individual responsible. No book can *make* anyone do anything that they aren't already inclined to do, imo.

[twoforjoy]

Absolutely! There are a million inappropriate books out there, but blaming this tragedy on a book is a tragedy itself. These abusive parents should not be able to divert the blame from themselves by blaming some crackpot book.

 

I've not read the book, but I can't imagine that it would recommend 7 hour beatings. And even if it did, it's still the parents' fault for following such crackpot advice.

 

I disagree. I don't think the Pearls bear all the blame, obviously. But, you have to know your audience. The Pearls are writing to the parents of young children. They have to know how stressful and difficult that can be, and how desperate parents can be to change their children's behavior. Because of that, they have a responsibility to think through how their advice might sound to a frazzled, exhausted, frustrated parent desperate to see some changes in their child. If there is any possible way that such a parent could conclude from their writing that, if hitting a baby with a switch a few times is good, doing it even more times is better, then that's a serious problem.

 

Sure, there's lots of bad parenting advice out there, but I'm not aware of anybody but the Pearls who advocate hitting infants with piping.

[Miss Marple]

:iagree:

 

These parents chose to torture those poor babies. Saying a book made them do it just negates their personal responsibility, imo.

:iagree::iagree::iagree:

[Plink]

:crying:

[CalicoKat]

I loathe the Pearls, their books, anything to do with them. Truly LOATHE them with a fiery passion. Did anyone else see this on Anderson Cooper's blog?

 

http://ac360.blogs.cnn.com/2011/08/15/video-spare-the-rod-spoil-the-child/?hpt=ac_mid

 

And part two

http://ac360.blogs.cnn.com/2011/08/16/video-spare-the-rod-spoil-the-child-part-2/?hpt=ac_t1

 

 

I want to cry and scream and then use the same punishment on those parents AND the Pearls.

heart breaking, awful, so very very wrong. I agree with you Heather.

[Orthodox6]

Communicate the outrage to CNN. If people remain silent, they contribute to the horrible belief that Christians endorse the sins -- yes, their behaviour and beliefs are sinful -- of the Pearls.

[sagira]

Years ago I met a respected seller of homeschool books (who shall remain nameless) who advocated this book. She was a likable, smart, young lady who had a few shining qualities. Nevertheless, after researching this book and reading a few pages online, I can't bring myself to buy books from her, or to be her friend (she offered me friendship). Her children (four at the time) were extremely well behaved, but in an adult way.. They were like little adults, and looked, I kid you not, sad. Other people didn't seem to notice! They only saw the robotic compliance of these children.

 

When my then two-year-old ds said, "No", she said, "Now it looks cute, but not when he's older. He shouldn't ever say no to you." On another occasion, I asked her about her children, and she said she doesn't even like children. Yet I found out she has had two more afterwards.. Creepy, and it has stayed with me. Somebody who doesn't even like children or childlike behavior obviously would do almost anything to get them to be little adults. Yet she keeps having children because she has as many as God wants to give her. Sigh.

 

From the little I read of the Pearls, the book is simply vile and revolting. Putting a toy in reach of your infant (under a year old!), then saying "no" and slapping them is cruel. Sadly, this is relatively tame compared to the other stuff they advocate. Ugh.

[Carol in Cal.]

I despise the Pearls and Ezzos, and I tremendously resent the fact that they claim their disgusting teachings to be Biblically mandated.

[clarkacademy]

I can't get the blog you linked to even load??

[laughing lioness]

Debi was smiling throughout the entire interview! QUOTE]

 

But she doesn't really exude joi de vive. kwim? Her mouth is smiling.

[AuntieM]

And to think that on another thread someone wrist-slapped me for burning a copy of TTUAC.

 

Very, very sad.

[justamouse]

I can't even look.

 

There was a woman's blog that I surfed over to from a link that had everything Pearls on it, and I had to use every bit of self control I had to not explode all over her.

[twoforjoy]

I despise the Pearls and Ezzos, and I tremendously resent the fact that they claim their disgusting teachings to be Biblically mandated.

 

That's why I don't think we should be so fast to let them off the hook entirely.

 

If somebody is telling you, "You MUST do this to be a good Christian, and if you don't you're children will be horrible little hellions forever," and also "If you do this, then you will have wonderful, perfect, obedient children (and if you don't it's because you aren't doing it right)," then there's a lot of room for a parent to take things too far. If you must hit your infant with piping in order to obey God and raise children who aren't horrible, selfish, undisciplined monsters, and if hitting your infant will result in good behavior if done right, then not only are you going to feel like you must hit your infant, but if hitting them once doesn't get the result you've been promised, of course you might conclude that you just didn't hit them enough.

 

It just seems so easy for advice like this to be taken too far, especially by a desperate and exhausted parent, and I think anybody writing a parenting book has to think through how their advice might be applied by parents in the real world.

[justamouse]

Debi was smiling throughout the entire interview! QUOTE]

 

But she doesn't really exude joi de vive. kwim? Her mouth is smiling.

 

that's a crazy smile, that's what that is.

[Heather in OK]

I would hope it isn't a controversial topic and that most sane people would realize that what they teach is outright abuse.

[Rhonda in TX]

The thing that makes the Pearls so dangerous is that they can make really horrifying, totally out there stuff seem completely reasonable. I read To Train Up a Child as research. Even though I was biased against the Pearls from the start, plus completely against spanking in all forms, I found TTUAC scarily persuasive. I had to quit reading midway through because I was starting to see the really out there, even abusive, advice as reasonable. And that even though I vehemently disagreed with them going in. How much worse does it affect the people who read it with a neutral or positive impression going in?

 

When my kids were very little, and I was trying to figure out discipline, a friend gave me TTUAC to read. Her sister-in-law had highly recommended it. I read a chapter or two and was stunned. I put the book away and never said anything to my friend. A few weeks later, she came up to me and said, "I just read that book I gave you. I am so, so sorry that I gave it to you. I would never have recommended it if I had read it first." I was so relieved!

[Impish]

That's why I don't think we should be so fast to let them off the hook entirely.

 

If somebody is telling you, "You MUST do this to be a good Christian, and if you don't you're children will be horrible little hellions forever," and also "If you do this, then you will have wonderful, perfect, obedient children (and if you don't it's because you aren't doing it right)," then there's a lot of room for a parent to take things too far. If you must hit your infant with piping in order to obey God and raise children who aren't horrible, selfish, undisciplined monsters, and if hitting your infant will result in good behavior if done right, then not only are you going to feel like you must hit your infant, but if hitting them once doesn't get the result you've been promised, of course you might conclude that you just didn't hit them enough.

 

It just seems so easy for advice like this to be taken too far, especially by a desperate and exhausted parent, and I think anybody writing a parenting book has to think through how their advice might be applied by parents in the real world.

But this is where free agency comes into play. People are supposed to have the ability to choose, make decisions, and not blindly follow whatever happens to wander across their path.

 

Loads of desperate and exhausted parents exist. They don't beat their kids to death over seven hours.

 

Honestly, I believe that these ppl would have been in the same situation with or without the Pearls writing. There has to be something seriously wrong to start with to make beating children for hours seem reasonable. I don't think the repugnant writings of the Pearls gave them ideas that they didn't already harbour.

[kchara]

The Pearls are downright dangerous, IMO. I've never met a parent who uses TTUAC who does not love their child, and really believes they're doing what's best. The Pearls take that love and concern, and give you a formula for not only having well behaved children, but say that if you follow this, your children will be SAVED. And that's the big issue I have. The greatest fear of any Christian parent is that their child will reject Christ and be lost. The Pearls claim to have a formula to fix that. It's sick and twisted.

 

For this particular family, the Pearls advocate as discipline "spanking" a child until the child doesn't cry. If the child cries, she's still in rebellion, and the spankings must continue. From what I remember, that's what happened here. The little girl just kept crying. As to that that she was very dark skinned, with white parents, and the parents couldn't physically see the amount of damage they caused until it was entirely too late because they simply didn't know what to look for. I'm NOT EXCUSING these parents. What they did was inexcusable, BUT... they were following the Pearls' teachings to the letter. How Michael Pearl can say with a straight face he bears no responsibility in this is incomprehensible to me. He might not be held responsible in human courts, but I have no doubt God will deal with him accordingly.

[ByGrace3]

But this is where free agency comes into play. People are supposed to have the ability to choose, make decisions, and not blindly follow whatever happens to wander across their path.

 

Loads of desperate and exhausted parents exist. They don't beat their kids to death over seven hours.

 

Honestly, I believe that these ppl would have been in the same situation with or without the Pearls writing. There has to be something seriously wrong to start with to make beating children for hours seem reasonable. I don't think the repugnant writings of the Pearls gave them ideas that they didn't already harbour.

 

I agree with you that these people are horrible extremists, and the Pearl's would most likely (I don't know them, so I can hope) say that this was horrible abuse. However, in that interview, the Pearl's advocating spanking a 7 year old 15 times with a belt :ack2: and pulling the hair of a breastfed infant! :eek: Without even reading the book, I see they are teaching abuse. This makes me want to vomit. If a drunk father took a belt to his 7 year old and hit him 10-15 times we call it abuse. But a calculated 15 swats with a belt is discipline? :confused: I also have a really hard time believing you could hit a child 15 times with a belt and not leave a mark. I am disgusted.