Help me with church issues.

[Lara in Colo]

I want to say up front that I love love love my pastor!!

He has a wonderful heart for people. He is sensitive to, and follows the direction of the Holy Spirit. He is humble before man and God. His preaching is spot on and correct in the Word.

 

These are traits that are very hard to find (all at once).

 

Problems:

 

The music is too loud. I mean really loud--like a rock concert. I cannot hear myself sing and I sing loud. Last week I purposly sang a different song--couldn't tell.

I used to be just annoyed by this, but now I am seeing that this inhibits my worship. Somehow I *feel* that if I can't hear me, neither can God.

I also feel like I am being sung "at" not incouraged to worship "with".

 

The childrens program.

 

Weak. Granted this is a small church (but in a big town). The curriculum is Group (watered down bubble gum church). I have complained, I volunteer and try to "beef" it up. Not really appreciated. I am a helper in the class and I cannot make the connections from the lesson to the examples they give. Perhaps I am a pita, and they just don't want me to rock the boat. The children's pastors are a young (early 20's) married couple. She cannot control a group and he thinks that Group is great!!!!!! (Apparently Group does lots of research and understands that children want to be entertained at church) I guess I feel that perhaps children want to be accepted and have a calm in the storm that is life today--not that church should be boring, just not all games with a lesson on the side. I watch the children not engage, not sing, not "get" the lesson---and there is very little reenforcement of lessons.

 

There are no other childrens activities (no missionettes, awana).

 

My children are bored, not challenged, and not making friends.

 

Administration.

 

All family. I mean it. The head pastor is (close ---I am pretty sure all these people started the church together) with the other pastors.

 

Family pastors are mom and dad to:

children's pastor

music pastor

 

They are siblings to:

admin pastor--

 

And the head pastor just recently added his newly graduated from church college-- son and his wife.

 

All the pastors have "real" jobs so issue isn't about money corruption since I don't think they get paid. But where do you go to talk about a problem?? They are all interconnected.

 

Even if they are all family, they are very nice people. No real issue with the whole family thing except that it does feel like the church tree had one VERY heavy branch. And I am sure votes are not really (I can't find the word) even? fair? level?.

 

There is no adult SS--I want to be able to talk about my questions in the Word, and be led in the correct direction and have the open forum to do this.

 

Just a side note--I am pretty sure I have the gifts of teaching (duh) and discernment) I can see through to the issues, and see through subterfuge).

 

Part of me wants to have a "come to Jesus" meeting with Pastor.

I feel that this is the correct Biblical step.

I also feel that I will do no good, and just get my feeling hurt (you know--we aren't right for you--so... bye.

 

Part of me wants to just leave and look for another church---except for the very first part of this post. Pastor. Wow, what a wonderful man of God. Not easy to just go and find another one of those.

 

 

Oh another big thing.

The church isn't growing (probably for some of these reasons)

ANd this is a church in a school, so we work a lot (unpacking and packing up every weekend)

 

I feel like I should be getting more for my efforts and tithe than I am getting.

I feel like this church needs someone to say what is wrong and cause change so it can grow. I just don't want to be the bad guy.

 

SO far I find I can get one or the other--the good teaching church--or a good people/preaching church---just not both.

 

I don't know if you can help me, I feel better just talking about it.

Perhaps you can tell what you would do and please put in your prayers--be specific about what He wants me to do.

 

Thanks---sorry about the typos--to worn out to fix.

 

Lara

Edited August 3, 2011 by Lara in Colo

[justamouse]

:grouphug::grouphug:

[tntgoodwin]

The best advice I can offer is the following:

 

If you have a legitimate complaint about something, make sure you offer a solution as well.

 

Example: You don't like the children's curriculum. Make a suggestion or 2 of what you would think may be a better choice.

 

(check out http://www.praisefactory.org/ for one example. It teaches kids a Systematic Theology)

[Lara in Colo]

I have, others have---deaf ears

 

Like your link though

[bairnmama]

I understand what you're saying... I LOVE my church, too! I love the music and really feel like I get to worship. I love to hear the pastor preach. He really makes me think about things and I feel like he helps me to understand the original meaning since he's got his phD and takes the time to define the original Hebrew/Greek.

 

BUT..... Family Night, eh. Not so much. We do TeamKid and I feel like it's just games with a mini-lesson on the side. My dc don't memorize scripture in their classes and the same stories repeat almost ad nauseum with nothing new added as they get into the older classes. It's not really a visiting church. For example, when my ds was an infant, he had RSV and was in the hospital for 4 days. I only got 1 visit from my deacon on the last day we were there. No one shows up for outreach.... well, only the same 4 or 5.

 

You just have to ask yourself, do the pros outweigh the cons? For me, the teaching of the pastor and the ministry of the music are enough. I have a good circle of friends I can call on both in and outside of the church and I teach my children to memorize scripture at home. It's MY job to teach them anyway (as far as I understand it at least). So, I stay. I get refreshed and challenged by the sermon. I get uplifted and lift my praise during the music. I teach my children at home and bring them into the service when possible.

 

You will never find a perfect church. They are filled with imperfect people who don't always hear/understand what God is saying. You might be the one to help them hear... then again, you might be just a supporter to the one who hasn't come yet or even just one to move to another church. I pray you find the peace in whatever path you take.

:grouphug:

[Margo out of lurking]

I want to say up front that I love love love my pastor!!

He has a wonderful heart for people. He is sensitive to, and follows the direction of the Holy Spirit. He is humble before man and God. His preaching is spot on and correct in the Word.

 

These are traits that are very hard to find (all at once).

 

Problems:

 

The music is too loud. I mean really loud--like a rock concert. I cannot hear myself sing and I sing loud. Last week I purposly sang a different song--couldn't tell.

I used to be just annoyed by this, but now I am seeing that this inhibits my worship. Somehow I *feel* that if I can't hear me, neither can God.

I also feel like I am being sung "at" not incouraged to worship "with".

 

The childrens program.

 

Weak. Granted this is a small church (but in a big town). The curriculum is Group (watered down bubble gum church). I have complained, I volunteer and try to "beef" it up. Not really appreciated. I am a helper in the class and I cannot make the connections from the lesson to the examples they give. Perhaps I am a pita, and they just don't want me to rock the boat. The children's pastors are a young (early 20's) married couple. She cannot control a group and he thinks that Group is great!!!!!! (Apparently Group does lots of research and understands that children want to be entertained at church) I guess I feel that perhaps children want to be accepted and have a calm in the storm that is life today--not that church should be boring, just not all games with a lesson on the side. I watch the children not engage, not sing, not "get" the lesson---and there is very little reenforcement of lessons.

 

There are no other childrens activities (no missionettes, awana).

 

My children are bored, not challenged, and not making friends.

 

Administration.

 

All family. I mean it. The head pastor is (close ---I am pretty sure all these people started the church together) with the other pastors.

 

Family pastors are mom and dad to:

children's pastor

music pastor

 

They are siblings to:

admin pastor--

 

And the head pastor just recently added his newly graduated from church college-- son and his wife.

 

All the pastors have "real" jobs so issue isn't about money corruption since I don't think they get paid. But where do you go to talk about a problem?? They are all interconnected.

 

Even if they are all family, they are very nice people. No real issue with the whole family thing except that it does feel like the church tree had one VERY heavy branch. And I am sure votes are not really (I can't find the word) even? fair? level?.

 

There is no adult SS--I want to be able to talk about my questions in the Word, and be led in the correct direction and have the open forum to do this.

 

Just a side note--I am pretty sure I have the gifts of teaching (duh) and discernment) I can see through to the issues, and see through subterfuge).

 

Part of me wants to have a "come to Jesus" meeting with Pastor.

I feel that this is the correct Biblical step.

I also feel that I will do no good, and just get my feeling hurt (you know--we aren't right for you--so... bye.

 

Part of me wants to just leave and look for another church---except for the very first part of this post. Pastor. Wow, what a wonderful man of God. Not easy to just go and find another one of those.

 

 

Oh another big thing.

The church isn't growing (probably for some of these reasons)

ANd this is a church in a school, so we work a lot (unpacking and packing up every weekend)

 

I feel like I should be getting more for my efforts and tithe than I am getting.

I feel like this church needs someone to say what is wrong and cause change so it can grow. I just don't want to be the bad guy.

 

SO far I find I can get one or the other--the good teaching church--or a good people/preaching church---just not both.

 

I don't know if you can help me, I feel better just talking about it.

Perhaps you can tell what you would do and please put in your prayers--be specific about what He wants me to do.

 

Thanks---sorry about the typos--to worn out to fix.

 

Lara

 

:grouphug::grouphug:

My biggest concern wouldn't be the lack of a children's program, it's the lacking children's program. As a parent, I'd never let my children under the influence of any church that believes my children need to be entertained. Period. Your kids would be better off with no church.

 

I understand how difficult it is to have a gifted pastor and not-so-great everything else.

 

While I am not a huge Ken Ham fan, his book Already Gone had a huge impact on me. It had a life changing impact on my kids.

[Lara in Colo]

I put in on my wish list :D

[Ellie]

Honey, the leaders of your church know what the "problems" are. They chose them. They are invested in them. If you go to the leaders, they will not have a palm-face moment; nothing will change. Even the pastor that you love is part of the problem.

 

Were I in your position, I'd be looking for another church.

[gardenmom5]

IThe music is too loud. I mean really loud--like a rock concert. I cannot hear myself sing and I sing loud. Last week I purposly sang a different song--couldn't tell.

I used to be just annoyed by this, but now I am seeing that this inhibits my worship. Somehow I *feel* that if I can't hear me, neither can God.

I also feel like I am being sung "at" not incouraged to worship "with".

 

I grew up with a brother who regularly played heavy metal so loud the neighbors at the end of the next street over would come and complain. I attended an elementary reunion, and the venue played rock concert loud after the dinner hour. I had an epiphany - you cannot even THINK let alone talk to someone standing an inch from your ear. I realized druggies (brother was one during his teens) want it that loud so they don't have to think, after all they use drugs to numb themselves.

I can't imagine what it would be like attending a church where music was so loud and interfers with communing with God. seems counter to the stated purpose of a church.

 

Administration.

 

All family.

Family pastors are mom and dad to:

children's pastor

music pastor

They are siblings to:

admin pastor--

And the head pastor just recently added his newly graduated from church college-- son and his wife.

 

nepotism anyone?

Part of me wants to just leave and look for another church---except for the very first part of this post. Pastor. Wow, what a wonderful man of God. Not easy to just go and find another one of those.

 

 

No matter how wonderful you think this guy is - do you go to church for the minister or for the teachings of the church that help you and your family be a better christians?

 

I feel like this church needs someone to say what is wrong and cause change so it can grow.

 

see above -you said it yourself - it will fall on deaf ears at best or you'll be seen as "a problem"

 

SO far I find I can get one or the other--the good teaching church--or a good people/preaching church---just not both.

 

what do you think a church should be? a preacher, or promoting teachings that will help you and your family be better disciples of christ?

 

I'd keep looking. prayers coming:grouphug:.

[HSMom2One]

You didn't state anything about your dh in all of this. Is he attending church with the family? If so, what does he think/see/discern? I think this has to be a decision for the two of you if the whole family is involved. Have you expressed all of these things to him? How does he feel about what you are saying?

 

But if that is not the case, and you are attending church without dh, then I'd encourage you to move on to another church. What you are telling me sounds like the church is not a healthy place to be. There are all kinds of red flags waving in your description. I would be particularly unhappy if my dc were not making connections, were bored and unchallenged. How can we possibly expect our kids to want to continue in the Christian faith if they are regularly exposed to ineffective ministry and lack of fellowship? They matter! They are the parents of our grandchildren, and we as parents absolutely must do our best to pass a legacy of faith on to the next generation as well as the one to follow. As the mom to older dc that have departed from the faith of their family, I can honestly tell you that a good part of this was because of poor choices that were made in our family's church involvements. They became bitter, and when they were out on their own they had no desire to be a part of a church. This is a heartache beyond anything for me as a mom. Please take this to heart, dear lady. Your dc's spiritual maturity and growth is in your hands right now. Find an excellent place for them to thrive as you also teach them the faith at home and you will never regret it.

 

Secondly, I'd be very leery of the family leadership that is in place at your current church. It seems like a heavily biased situation that I could not in clear conscience be connected with. When people and families take over a church, dominate it with their philosophy and agenda (even a well-meaning agenda) then it limits the involvement and growth of others in the church. It is clearly a case pf conflict of interest. I have been on staff in a church and could tell you some really unhappy, sad stories about this type of thing. Go find a church that has balanced leadership.

 

The matter of no church vibrancy and growth is the final deal maker here, and it's no wonder by what you've described.

 

Make this a real matter of prayer, ask for wisdom and direction and the Lord will give it to you.

 

Blessings,

Lucinda

[Lara in Colo]

You didn't state anything about your dh in all of this. Is he attending church with the family? If so, what does he think/see/discern? I think this has to be a decision for the two of you if the whole family is involved. Have you expressed all of these things to him? How does he feel about what you are saying?

 

 

Dh is a relatively new christian and was not raised in a church.

He is also the most blissfully unaware person I have ever met.

He leaves most of these types of decisions to me (I really have to point the stuff out for him to see and he usually agrees with me) He also loves the preaching!

 

There are all kinds of red flags waving in your description. I would be particularly unhappy if my dc were not making connections, were bored and unchallenged. How can we possibly expect our kids to want to continue in the Christian faith if they are regularly exposed to ineffective ministry and lack of fellowship? They matter! They are the parents of our grandchildren, and we as parents absolutely must do our best to pass a legacy of faith on to the next generation as well as the one to follow.

 

I agree with you about the children, I guess I hesitate to leave if I could really help a change and make a differnce for more than just my children.

 

 

As the mom to older dc that have departed from the faith of their family, I can honestly tell you that a good part of this was because of poor choices that were made in our family's church involvements. They became bitter, and when they were out on their own they had no desire to be a part of a church. This is a heartache beyond anything for me as a mom. Please take this to heart, dear lady. Your dc's spiritual maturity and growth is in your hands right now. Find an excellent place for them to thrive as you also teach them the faith at home and you will never regret it.

 

Point taken, I have to take this more seriously than just an 'issue with the curriculum'

 

Secondly, I'd be very leery of the family leadership that is in place at your current church. It seems like a heavily biased situation that I could not in clear conscience be connected with. When people and families take over a church, dominate it with their philosophy and agenda (even a well-meaning agenda) then it limits the involvement and growth of others in the church. It is clearly a case pf conflict of interest. I have been on staff in a church and could tell you some really unhappy, sad stories about this type of thing. Go find a church that has balanced leadership.

 

I had a church in my youth that had this and I told DH when we first went there that I thought it was a little top heavy. There is no room for discussion in these situations--I was hoping that would not be the case here, since all the leaders left another church and started this one, I sort of thought they all shared a vision, but time is showing very little diversity in the leadership only more of the same.

 

The matter of no church vibrancy and growth is the final deal maker here, and it's no wonder by what you've described.

 

Make this a real matter of prayer, ask for wisdom and direction and the Lord will give it to you.

 

Thank you!

[Jean in Newcastle]

Honey, the leaders of your church know what the "problems" are. They chose them. They are invested in them. If you go to the leaders, they will not have a palm-face moment; nothing will change. Even the pastor that you love is part of the problem.

 

Were I in your position, I'd be looking for another church.

 

I agree 100% with Ellie on this.

[Elizabeth in MN]

I agree that this sounds like an unhealthy church and that moving on would be a good idea. I *totally* agree that there is no such thing as a perfect church!

[sassenach]

 

Oh another big thing.

The church isn't growing (probably for some of these reasons)

ANd this is a church in a school, so we work a lot (unpacking and packing up every weekend)

 

I feel like I should be getting more for my efforts and tithe than I am getting.

I feel like this church needs someone to say what is wrong and cause change so it can grow. I just don't want to be the bad guy.

 

SO far I find I can get one or the other--the good teaching church--or a good people/preaching church---just not both.

 

I don't know if you can help me, I feel better just talking about it.

Perhaps you can tell what you would do and please put in your prayers--be specific about what He wants me to do.

 

Thanks---sorry about the typos--to worn out to fix.

 

Lara

 

You have some legitimate issues (especially the family staffing- that's strange and unwise), and I think you have some that are subjective (music, the MOST complained about issue at any church we've ever been a part of. Too loud, too quiet, too fast, too slow, not enough chorus, it goes on and on and on).

 

The bolded issues are where my concern lies.

Tithe is for worship, not for a product. We are called to give joyfully and sacrificially. If there is any expectation of a return in any shape or form, then your heart is giving for the wrong reasons.

 

A growing church is not a sign of God's blessing or presence, a shrinking church is not a sign of God's (what's the opposite of blessing?) lack of presence. Growth is not an accurate way to measure health.

 

The last bolded comment reflects what I see a lot in the body. It reflects a somewhat consumeristic view. We can sometimes be tempted to treat church like a checklist: Is worship meeting my needs? Is teaching meeting my needs? Is kids' ministry meeting my needs? Really, church isn't a place to get needs met.

 

My suggestion would be to spend some time in prayer, especially asking for discernment about which issues God would have you bring attention to, and those that are heart issues that you need to go directly and only to God about. After that, have a sit down with the pastor. Nothing you expressed would lead me to pick up and go without being sure that it was God doing the moving.

 

I hope that helps you sort things out a bit.

[JenniferB]

:grouphug:

[Lara in Colo]

Tithe is for worship, not for a product. We are called to give joyfully and sacrificially. If there is any expectation of a return in any shape or form, then your heart is giving for the wrong reasons.

 

This is why I love this forum, I need to be called on the carpet sometimes

 

A growing church is not a sign of God's blessing or presence, a shrinking church is not a sign of God's (what's the opposite of blessing?) lack of presence. Growth is not an accurate way to measure health.

 

I agree and disagree both. Perhaps not the spiritual health of a church can be measured by growth since people do not always like to be told the truth and our pastor is a make you squirm type, otoh, no growth shows that we aren't meeting needs and reaching others.

 

 

The last bolded comment reflects what I see a lot in the body. It reflects a somewhat consumeristic view. We can sometimes be tempted to treat church like a checklist: Is worship meeting my needs? Is teaching meeting my needs? Is kids' ministry meeting my needs? Really, church isn't a place to get needs met.

 

I think church is a place to get needs met, perhaps not all needs, there should be a balance of getting to giving, but yes, I believe God set up the church family to be a support system for each other and to help each other grow in Christ.

 

My suggestion would be to spend some time in prayer, especially asking for discernment about which issues God would have you bring attention to, and those that are heart issues that you need to go directly and only to God about. After that, have a sit down with the pastor. Nothing you expressed would lead me to pick up and go without being sure that it was God doing the moving.

 

I hope that helps you sort things out a bit

 

 

Yes it does help, I really do need people to tell me I am overreacting. Although PP talked about my duty to my children. This weighs heavily also.

[tntgoodwin]

What is your ministry within the church?

[HSMom2One]

Hi again,

I just read through the thread again, including my previous post, and I want to apologize for sounding so harsh. My points are still the same, but I think I could have used a softer tone. All I can say is that I was distracted while writing, plus I am pretty passionate about some of the things I said -- especially the part about raising our children with grandchildren in mind and grown kids leaving the faith of their family. I'm really glad that you took that to heart though. This is maybe the most critical need you have in the whole thing imho.

 

Blessings,

Lucinda

[Lara in Colo]

I would love to teach SS (children) but what I am assigned to do is rotate into childrens church (sort of ss) as a third helper, twice a month and I break down the children's area ( put everything away and pack it into a trailer) at least twice a month. We don't really have "ministries". We all help where we are needed and where we think we can be comfortable. For instance, I could never be a greeter (too socially awkward) and I quit singing in highschool.

 

Lara

[Lara in Colo]

Hi again,

I just read through the thread again, including my previous post, and I want to apologize for sounding so harsh. My points are still the same, but I think I could have used a softer tone. All I can say is that I was distracted while writing, plus I am pretty passionate about some of the things I said -- especially the part about raising our children with grandchildren in mind and grown kids leaving the faith of their family. I'm really glad that you took that to heart though. This is maybe the most critical need you have in the whole thing imho.

 

Blessings,

Lucinda

 

No worries, I took things to heart, not to offence (is that even proper grammar?)

 

Lara

[Geo]

Do not try to teach pigs to sing. You'll only frustrate yourself, and irritate the pigs. Franciscan Monk....thanks, Impish.

Edited August 3, 2011 by Geo

[Kathleen in VA]

I agree 100% with Ellie on this.

 

Me, too. The music issue alone would clinch it for me. Not able to hear yourself sing? That's a symptom of deeper issues, imo. The focus does not seem to be on Christ.

[AuntieM]

Me, too. The music issue alone would clinch it for me. Not able to hear yourself sing? That's a symptom of deeper issues, imo. The focus does not seem to be on Christ.

 

:iagree:

 

Corporate worship time is, for me, one of the reasons to actually attend organized church. Worship that is distracting or centered on persons other than Christ (ie, rock band or look-at-me praise team) does not offer me an atmosphere to focus on worshipping the Lord.

 

Another reason to go to church is for support and fellowship within the body. Are you making attachments that foster supportive relationships? Iron-sharpening relationships?

 

As for my kids, I want them to learn and serve in an environment that is emotionally and spiritually safe. I don't want them to get addicted to brain candy level teaching, but I believe spiritual instruction is ultimately my responsibility as their parent.

 

As for teaching, I love it when there's depth, but if there's unadulterated truth, that's enough for me. There are a dozen excellent teachers with podcasts these days, my pastor doesn't have to be the end-all-be-all factor in church choice.

 

Much of what one used to could expect to receive from a church can, these days, be met or at least supplemented by parachurch activities. But corporate worship? That aspect, at least for me, has to be available and ring true.

[gardenmom5]

Do not try to teach pigs to sing. You'll only frustrate yourself, and irritate the pigs. Franciscan Monk.....

 

I've never seen anyone else use this - it's one of dh's favorite lines. I had no idea where it came from.

[Paintedlady]

I agree. I spent 12 years in a church with similar issues, thinking it might change. It never did. I'd move on.

 

Honey, the leaders of your church know what the "problems" are. They chose them. They are invested in them. If you go to the leaders, they will not have a palm-face moment; nothing will change. Even the pastor that you love is part of the problem.

 

Were I in your position, I'd be looking for another church.

[FiveOaksAcademy]

Were I in your position, I'd be looking for another church.

 

:iagree: At the very first of your post, when I saw what a great pastor you had, I didn't think you needed to leave. After reading along, I realized that you have several different issues there. The children's ministry would be my biggest problem of all! It just seems to be a big enough group of issues that I'd have a hard time staying. A fantastic pastor doesn't always mean a fantastic church. :grouphug:

[Another Lynn]

Honey, the leaders of your church know what the "problems" are. They chose them. They are invested in them. If you go to the leaders, they will not have a palm-face moment; nothing will change. Even the pastor that you love is part of the problem.

 

Were I in your position, I'd be looking for another church.

 

:iagree:

 

Your post reminded me SO much of my former church - really the similarities are uncanny. For years I wondered why there was such a disconnect between the *great* sermons I was hearing and the culture of the church. Over time I realized that though he said many things I agreed with he often turned around and "patted us on the back" for not having *that* problem in our church (whatever *that* problem was in that particular scripture passage). We were usually being praised and never brought to repentance. It was always everyone else "out there" who had gotten it wrong.

 

So, I agree with Ellie, whatever the dysfunctions of the church, your leadership has chosen them. Over the course of 8 or so years of attendance/membership I had a couple opportunities to share my view of children's needs in church (opportunities I did not initiate), but they were usually met with flattery (oh, yes, my children might respond well to that but other children would never be able to!)

 

Others have given you good advice, so I won't try to repeat.... but just wanted you to know you weren't alone!

[Harriet Vane]

I want to say up front that I love love love my pastor!!

He has a wonderful heart for people. He is sensitive to, and follows the direction of the Holy Spirit. He is humble before man and God. His preaching is spot on and correct in the Word.

 

These are traits that are very hard to find (all at once).

 

Problems:

 

The music is too loud. I mean really loud--like a rock concert. I cannot hear myself sing and I sing loud. Last week I purposly sang a different song--couldn't tell.

I used to be just annoyed by this, but now I am seeing that this inhibits my worship. Somehow I *feel* that if I can't hear me, neither can God.

I also feel like I am being sung "at" not incouraged to worship "with".

 

The childrens program.

 

Weak. Granted this is a small church (but in a big town). The curriculum is Group (watered down bubble gum church). I have complained, I volunteer and try to "beef" it up. Not really appreciated. I am a helper in the class and I cannot make the connections from the lesson to the examples they give. Perhaps I am a pita, and they just don't want me to rock the boat. The children's pastors are a young (early 20's) married couple. She cannot control a group and he thinks that Group is great!!!!!! (Apparently Group does lots of research and understands that children want to be entertained at church) I guess I feel that perhaps children want to be accepted and have a calm in the storm that is life today--not that church should be boring, just not all games with a lesson on the side. I watch the children not engage, not sing, not "get" the lesson---and there is very little reenforcement of lessons.

 

There are no other childrens activities (no missionettes, awana).

 

My children are bored, not challenged, and not making friends.

 

Administration.

 

All family. I mean it. The head pastor is (close ---I am pretty sure all these people started the church together) with the other pastors.

 

Family pastors are mom and dad to:

children's pastor

music pastor

 

They are siblings to:

admin pastor--

 

And the head pastor just recently added his newly graduated from church college-- son and his wife.

 

All the pastors have "real" jobs so issue isn't about money corruption since I don't think they get paid. But where do you go to talk about a problem?? They are all interconnected.

 

Even if they are all family, they are very nice people. No real issue with the whole family thing except that it does feel like the church tree had one VERY heavy branch. And I am sure votes are not really (I can't find the word) even? fair? level?.

 

There is no adult SS--I want to be able to talk about my questions in the Word, and be led in the correct direction and have the open forum to do this.

 

Just a side note--I am pretty sure I have the gifts of teaching (duh) and discernment) I can see through to the issues, and see through subterfuge).

 

Part of me wants to have a "come to Jesus" meeting with Pastor.

I feel that this is the correct Biblical step.

I also feel that I will do no good, and just get my feeling hurt (you know--we aren't right for you--so... bye.

 

Part of me wants to just leave and look for another church---except for the very first part of this post. Pastor. Wow, what a wonderful man of God. Not easy to just go and find another one of those.

 

 

Oh another big thing.

The church isn't growing (probably for some of these reasons)

ANd this is a church in a school, so we work a lot (unpacking and packing up every weekend)

 

I feel like I should be getting more for my efforts and tithe than I am getting.

I feel like this church needs someone to say what is wrong and cause change so it can grow. I just don't want to be the bad guy.

 

SO far I find I can get one or the other--the good teaching church--or a good people/preaching church---just not both.

 

I don't know if you can help me, I feel better just talking about it.

Perhaps you can tell what you would do and please put in your prayers--be specific about what He wants me to do.

 

Thanks---sorry about the typos--to worn out to fix.

 

Lara

 

I have directed children's church programs for many years, both in suburban churches and in an inner-city church.

 

The problems you are having in the children's programs are typical and by far the norm in most churches. I have found it very difficult to find beefy children's teaching. I have also found that church leaders are very, very reluctant to consider a non-traditional curriculum. (Group is very mainstream and therefore traditional to what most churches use--I see little difference between Group, Faithweaver, Cook, CharismaLife, DiscipleLand, etc.) I have addressed these same concerns in church settings in the following ways:

 

--Taught my own childrens' classes personally, or dh did.

 

--Directed the program myself, and in so doing, specifically trained teachers on how to beef up the lesson. A wonderful resource for doing this is a book called Follow Me As I Follow Christ, by Cheryl Dunlop.

 

--Helped train teachers AND pastoral staff by personally providing them with the book I mentioned above.

 

--At one church, helped the (fabulous) youth pastor advocate for a switch to John Piper's Children Desiring God curriculum, which is waaaaaaaay less Disney-esque and waaaaaaaaaaaay more inductive than most other childrens church curriculum.

 

--Enrolled my children in BSF or CBS, which are parachurch Bible study programs whose specific goal is deeper inductive study. They are nondenominational. While they lean towards a more evangelical bent, they both specifically try very, very hard to not indoctrinate but to focus as narrowly as possible on what the Bible passage being studied says. I was impressed with my experience with them. Try googling to see if either group is in your area--Bible Study Fellowship or Community Bible Study.

 

--I left one church partially over the childrens programs. The bottom line is that my children are growing up and need the teaching and training NOW, and I find church administration and leadership are very, very, very slow to make needed changes especially in the "babysitting" department.

 

Bottom line on the childrens programs in your church: You can either find a way to make sure your own children are getting the teaching they need, or you can leave based on their needs. I doubt you will be able to effect the needed changes without years of effort, but it's also possible that those changes will never happen.

 

On the music--This is one area that really might change if you fuss. It's a legitimate issue. Talk to others and see how they feel about it.

 

On the nepotism--This would bother me a LOT. I do not see it as sinful, but I would be really concerned about the unequal balance of power and its effects. I spent years involved in a group (not a church, but a Christian group nonetheless) that was directed by one family. Honestly, it was like living in a monarchy. The family in question were good-hearted, hardworking people, truly. The difficulty was that everything had to be done their way--it evolved to be quite controlling.

Edited August 3, 2011 by strider

[mrs.m]

Me, too. The music issue alone would clinch it for me. Not able to hear yourself sing? That's a symptom of deeper issues, imo. The focus does not seem to be on Christ.

 

Loud music/Rock Band praise doesn't mean that there isn't a focus on Christ. I love the music loud and rockin'. (loud enough that I can't hear myself sing too!!) Everyone has different preferences when it comes to worship ranging from very traditional hymns with the organ all the way to hard rock. You can't judge the heart of the worship by the volume.

 

OP: I think since you don't like so many things about the church it is probably time to move on. If they haven't let you in to influence the decisions, they probably aren't going to because it conflicts with their vision and they don't want to change. I was on staff at a church like this. And they decided that they couldn't possibly make everyone happy so they stopped trying. They have a board and great leadership. They also know their mission and stick to it.

 

Have you spent time in prayer and fasting over this issue? It may not be your actual calling to change these things. And there are churches out there that fit exactly what you describe. I know it's hard to change. :grouphug:

Edited August 3, 2011 by jannylynn

[susankenny]

I feel like I should be getting more for my efforts and tithe than I am getting.

 

 

Lara, unfortunately this mindset is what the issue is imnho. If you do not like your church (which the list you have going in your mind is rather long), I'd say it is probably best to find another church home. If that is not an option, I would ask God to change you instead of them. I know that sounds harsh, and I do not mean it snarky.

 

I understand the music is loud, but are the lyrics still Godly? If not - that's an issue. I understand the children's curriculum isn't up to your standard, but does it still point to God? If not, that is an issue. I understand the pastors over the children's area are young, but are they spiritually unsound? If yes, that is a problem.

 

I'm sorry you are unhappy.:grouphug: I pray it will work out for you and your family, whatever the outcome is.

 

Susan

[Nakia]

I also agree with Ellie. We spent 8 years in a church with a pastor we loved and who loved God with his whole heart. But there was next to no children's program, and they refused any suggestions from me or anyone else. No leadership except the pastor and his wife. If she didn't like you, you were done for. Almost no music. Lots of gossip that was tolerated by the pastor because it was mostly his wife doing the gossiping. Anyway, we left, and have been at our new church for almost two years. It's not perfect, of course, but we know it's where God wants us. Our kids love it. We love it. We have grown more spiritually in 2 years than we did in 8 at our old church.

 

:grouphug: I know how hard it is. Praying for your family.

[BarbecueMom]

Wow, we left a church that was exactly like yours, right down to the one-family administration, meeting in the school, and the awful music (well-played, but contemporary Christian cookie-cutter music produced for entertainment and repackaged as worship). Eventually, more red flags started flying regarding leadership, theology, and financial decisions, and we stopped going. I have only a shred of desire left to attend any church, partly because of my own spiritual wrestling and partly because of this experience, but if I do go back I'll be returning home to the Catholic church. I'm done with startups.

 

I have one of those "blissfully unaware" husbands too. When HE started getting uneasy, it was time to leave.

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

Honey, the leaders of your church know what the "problems" are. They chose them. They are invested in them. If you go to the leaders, they will not have a palm-face moment; nothing will change. Even the pastor that you love is part of the problem.

 

Were I in your position, I'd be looking for another church.

 

:iagree:

[FO4UR]

:iagree: with Ellie.

 

I know what you mean about the loud music...and I'm no fuddy-duddy. I've been to several churches where it seems that they think that we won't notice the poor quality if they only up the volume.:001_huh: (I'm not fooled.)

 

The thing is....they think that the music (and the entertaining (LOL) kids' programming) is what brings in the lost and dying world. I think they are wrong. I might voice my thoughts graciously and privately to the pastor(s) before considering a move, but if they are happy with what they are doing...then, yeah....bye, bye.

 

I think the bigger issue is that you don't feel you have a significant role in ministry there. :grouphug:

[Lara in Colo]

Wow! so many postings this morning and I am not even fully awake yet. I love hearing your opinions and it does help to have people discuss what they would do in this situation. I have a lot of people (IRL) telling me to leave --people who have been to this church. So far, no one has given me a better option. I am in prayer about this, but I fear there is no solution that can keep me at this church. I just feel badly for our pastor since he wants to grow the church and I feel I should let him know some problems that may be holding the growth back. I just do not want to be the pariah I will become and do not want to burn the bridge that still leads to a loving church family.

At this point I am sort just taking in your suggestions and trying to formulate some sort of action.

 

Thank you for all your help and feel free to keep responding.

 

Lara

[Ellie]

I just feel badly for our pastor since he wants to grow the church and I feel I should let him know some problems that may be holding the growth back.

I think he knows. And it's hard for me to imagine that you are the only one who feels the way you do, or that no one else has ever said anything to him. Really.

I just do not want to be the pariah I will become and do not want to burn the bridge that still leads to a loving church family.

You can leave the church without burning the bridge. That is, if you leave with hugs and kisses, it is up to the people who are trying to stick it out to behave properly and not be the ones burning bridges.

[WishboneDawn]

I have, others have---deaf ears

 

Like your link though

 

Then you're not going to get your needs met.

 

Granted, church isn't simply about getting your spiritual needs meant but it IS about finding comfort and support in a community and it sounds like your church isn't a true community to anyone in your family.

 

I wouldn't hestitate to move on.

[happyhomemaker]

I have never attended a church where I liked absolutely everything about it. I would imagine that most people have not. That being said, we have tried to choose churches where the pros out-way the cons. We also go to church realizing that the things we dislike will probably not change. Not being pessimistic here- if they do change, great, but we aren't sitting around gritting our teeth and bearing it until they do. I guess what I'm trying to say is figure out what church characteristics are "musts" for you and then if the things you dislike are things you can live with if you assume they will never change. I would not stay at a church for the sake of changing the way they do things to fit my needs/wants. What if everyone did this? Things would never stay the same from week to week. The things you hate may be the very reasons someone else attends.

[warneral]

I can't read through the whole thread but I can relate in part. Our Church family meets in a school. There are few workers and a lot of work! Our pastor is an excellent teacher and our children's program is growing in a good direction.

 

The sound was way too loud and last year I couldn't take it. My DH is actually one of the (and now the only) sound technicians. He explained that it is VERY hard to have the sound turned down b/c the musicians need to hear themselves and the accoustics in the school cafeteria are terrible. My DH has been super involved in trying to improve this but it is a weekly challenge for him. I am actually part deaf (I have hearing aids) and the sound really gets to me. It is difficult for me b/c I don't have "normal" hearing.

 

I would suggest you consider these things as a challenge for the sound crew. It DOES help to say something b/c most likely you are not the only person who suffers from the loud volume.

[AuntieM]

Just a note on the loud rock style music....

 

This is more than a matter of preference for anyone once caught up in a dance-club lifestyle, surrounded by alcohol, drugs, and promiscuity. Though those days are behind me, I have no desire to return to a "worship" setting that in any way reconstructs that environment. If the lights go down and the bass beat starts pounding through the very chair I'm sitting in... well, it is distracting, to say the least. Those of you who have been blessed to grow up in Christian homes and environments may not see it this way, but to those who come "out" from such lifestyles, it really is important.

 

I can appreciate choruses and hymns, traditional and contemporary. I *love* upbeat tempos. Just don't put me back in the nightclub.

 

As far as the musicians needing to hear themselves, my dh has also done sound. His OPINION is that the extra volume is unnecessary, to a good musician. Yeah, I may have to duck tomatoes on this, he just was always really frustrated because at one start-up church each member of the praise team would come and ask him to jack up their individual sound. It was escalation at its finest as each member one-upped the others, with a cacophonous result.

 

I don't mean to hijack this thread into one about church worship, I just want to reiterate that it *is* an important component in church selection, as important as good teaching and good children's programs. A few comments here seem to have an underlying message of "oh, music is something no one will ever agree on 100%, so just put that on the back burner." For some (many?) of us, it's not easy to do that.

Edited August 3, 2011 by AuntieM

[Photo Ninja]

Would it help if you prioritized what you want in a church? Sometimes making lists like this can help us to identify what is important to us vs something is bothering us. Just an idea.

 

We went to a church that had a very weak children's program. The children's pastor just didn't realize it was weak because he had nothing to judge by and really wanted SS to be fun so children would want to keep coming. Most the SS curriculum is heavy on fun and activities and weak on meaty lessons. I got nowhere when I spoke to him about the SS schedule and more solid curriculum options. We ended up telling our dc that they could go to SS if they wanted to, or they could come into service with us. Usually they came with us. Even them telling the children's pastor that they didn't like the program because they could watch videos and play games at home, but they wanted to learn about God at church wasn't enough for him. He was a loving, kind children's pastor, but he had very low expectations for what a child is capable of learning. We taught our dc Bible and doctrine at home, so our dc were learning - but not at church.

 

We eventually left that church when we realized that it didn't share our priorities. For a long time we overlooked things (programs, etc.) that we didn't like, but finally recognized that the church's priorities were different than ours. It wasn't so much that we left because of things we didn't like, but we left because there were things we wanted that this church was not going to be or do.

 

We liked the pastors and staff. We didn't leave because of them. But it was wonderfully freeing to find a church that did share our priorities.

 

Once you and your dh identify your priorities you may be able to make a decision without feeling guilty for leaving really nice pastors and staff. Or maybe you will discover that you can live with the negatives because the positives are important to you. The children's SS classes are lacking, but you can find an AWANA program at another church to join. Maybe the pastors will allow you to start an adult SS class and you can pick your curriculum and teaching style.

 

There is no reason to stay if your priorities and the church's priorities are not the same, or if the church's methods don't represent their priorities or achieve their goals.

 

If you do decide to leave, please meet with the pastors and explain why. They need to know, and you don't have to burn bridges or criticize when you explain. You can do it by emphasizing priorities and methods, not personal dislikes, if that makes sense.

[tntgoodwin]

If the musicians can't hear themselves, I suggest the church invest in some in ear monitors.