Commitments that come before personal happiness?

[Ester Maria]

I know an interesting person who has what I would call an unusual psychology - or, at least, I would consider such a psychology fairly unusual. From my experiences, it does not seem to be a common trait.

 

I do not know how to ask the question I intend to ask without getting into too much details and what types of conversations led me to ponder these issues, but if I had to narrow it down to something, it would probably be this: that person believes that some of the commitments they have, in a general worldview sense, come before their personal happiness.

 

I thought this was an interesting question because I hardly know people who would persist in something which does not make them happy. Take, for example, religion - people who are not happy with the commitments their religion (or their interpretation of their religion, for arguments' sake) imposes on them (such as prohibitions to marry whomever they please or decide how many children they wish to have or where they can live, etc.) typically leave the situation. After all, if one is not content with one's reality, is the primary urge not to act so as to change it, alter it to suit you better, rather than persist in spite of not being happy? For example, a person could join a different branch of the same religion with different interpretations, or leave the commitments of a religious lifestyle altogether.

 

We tend to talk a lot about concepts such as intellectual honesty, doing the right thing even if it is not to one's inclination, growing out of one's inclinations, but we typically talk about this in the context of smaller, everyday life type of things - I believe that when it comes to bigger questions in life, most people will choose happiness, no matter what, even if it goes against whatever they technically subscribe to. People will typically "invent" loop holes where there are none or come with incredible rationalizations, but ultimately, they will tend to take the road of happiness. I think it is pretty much a basic, the most common human psychology: no matter what we say, fundamentally we are governed by the need to be happy and fulfilled, rather than to live our lives in accordance with a philosophical system or whatever. That is why the two tend to coincide in the first place - do not people naturally seek where they feel good and are happy?

 

The unusual thing about this person is that they have really taken to the extreme the idea that there are things, ideas, values which come before personal happiness. We are not even talking about a grumpy person who kinda likes to be grumpy because it is their personality - but about somebody who actually suffers the consequences of their choices, in some pretty major life decisions, based exclusively on the principle that they do not make those governed by the personal happiness first and foremost. They consider it a secondary thing: they naturally wish to be happy, but only within limits of such a system, and if being within those limits makes them unhappy in the first place or diminishes the happiness in their life consistently, then too bad. They are staying in.

 

I am pretty much blown away every time we discuss those issues because it seems like such an unusual way of functioning to me. I would choose happiness over most things, I think there are very few types of life choices I would purposely make or not make even if my personal happiness was at stake. For most things, honestly, I would bend. Take mixed couples for another example - even if in principle I do cherish the idea that people from the same cultural background function the best together, and even if in principle I would look for a partner in my own nation / country / whatever my allegiance first, if I really really were in love with somebody from a different background, I would probably swallow whatever my allegiances and personal emotional strings are and make a very drastic choice, only to be happy.

 

Then I am faced with a radically different view on life: personal happiness (within legal reason) is not the supreme good and sometimes even in major life choices one ought to choose the option which, if it were possible to see in the future and prove it, would be the less satisfactory one, simply on the grounds of it being "right".

 

Maybe I am wrong. Maybe this is NOT as unusual psychology as I find it to be. What do you think of it? Is there anyone here who would actually describe themselves as belonging to that camp and actively leading a life - or being prepared to lead one, if necessary - which would ultimately make them less happy? I know that none of us probably live our "ideal" lives, but do we not all at least strive to make decisions, especially major ones, so as to increase our happiness? Yes, sometimes we need to consider the needs of other people too, and life is complex and most choices we make are less than optimal due to all the factors we consider, but I really marvel at how far some people take their commitments. Interested in your views, I purposely tried to word it as general as possible to allow for it to "click" (or not click LOL) with as many different people and situations as possible. :bigear:

[Ria]

Does this person believe that he/she has a choice in the matter, or is his/her choice considered obedience to a higher power?

 

Strange question, I know, but I knew a woman long ago who homeschooled her kids because she felt that was what God required of her. She hated homeschooling. HATED it. And yet she did it, and did a good job. I always felt bad for her, because of her hatred of it, but because of what she felt was required of her, because of her faith, she did a good job so the end result was that her kids got a great education....but she was miserable for 15 years. Sad, but true.

 

Anyway, your post made me think of her after all these years.

[Colleen in NS]

:lurk5:

[Daisy]

Then I am faced with a radically different view on life: personal happiness (within legal reason) is not the supreme good and sometimes even in major life choices one ought to choose the option which, if it were possible to see in the future and prove it, would be the less satisfactory one, simply on the grounds of it being "right".

 

 

I'd say my husband and I are both this way. Neither of us tend to make decisions based on what will make us happy but on what we feel is right or best. I tend to call it an overinflated sense of duty. LOL. But we were both raised that "the pursuit of happiness," is a shallow ideal. Better to pursue the right and then decide to be happy.

 

But maybe I'm misunderstanding you a bit because that doesn't seem to be all that uncommon among my immediate family and peers. On a much smaller scale, I often make commitments that are best for my children but are guaranteed not to add to my personal happiness. LOL.

[Bang!Zoom!]

I'm with Daisy, there are some duty bound out there. I'm one of those.

[Joker]

I think many of us make decisions based upon what we feel is right as opposed to only what will make us happy. I also think people can take it to extremes.

 

My mom is someone who takes it to the extreme. Her physical health deteriorated horribly at one point and she became horribly depressed. Medication wouldn't even help ~ she had to stop what she felt was expected and choose to do something that would make her happy. It was hard for her and even today she has guilt that she wasn't able to do what she felt she should.

[Sophia]

Better to pursue the right and then decide to be happy.

 

 

 

I know someone (who is not a Christian and not trying to obey any "higher power") who stayed married to his lunatic of a wife because "The best thing I can do for my daughter is stay married to her mother."

His wife gave him every reason to believe she would make his life miserable, but he sacrificed his happiness for what he believed was best for his daughter.

That was 15 years ago~they are still together and...happy.

[Ester Maria]

Does this person believe that he/she has a choice in the matter, or is his/her choice considered obedience to a higher power?

 

Strange question, I know, but I knew a woman long ago who homeschooled her kids because she felt that was what God required of her. She hated homeschooling. HATED it. And yet she did it, and did a good job. I always felt bad for her, because of her hatred of it, but because of what she felt was required of her, because of her faith, she did a good job so the end result was that her kids got a great education....but she was miserable for 15 years. Sad, but true.

 

Anyway, your post made me think of her after all these years.

That was a perfect example, Ria! Yes, I had in mind that types of commitments - something which is really not a momentary infelicity along your way, but which actually significantly impacts your life for an extended period of time, or even your whole life, and there is a solution out there that would make you happy / happier which would not be disagreeable to most people (for example, not that she homeschools because she truly lives in a district where an education is non-existent, schools are violent and unsafe, etc.), but their commitment goes that far to actually stick to it, in spite of it.

 

With this person, though, it is a bit more complex than just God vs. no God... let us just say that they decide to take upon themselves religion as a system and that it does not really matter to them whether God exists or no, it is the system / lifestyle / matrix / philosophy that they subscribe to and their relationship with it is the one of doing, fulfilling obligations, rather than typical spirituality. I know more than one person that has such an attitude towards religion (I know it is still weird, but with time I sort of learned to get that some people just want that structure more than spirituality itself), but almost nobody who is willing to go to as far personal sacrifices without a genuine, deep spirituality - and even those with it, I think they typically do not go against their happiness either for major things. Though I do suspect the attitude may be more widespread than what I think. However, rather than that specific situation, I wanted to discuss an idea and your example really seems to fit it too.

I'd say my husband and I are both this way. Neither of us tend to make decisions based on what will make us happy but on what we feel is right or best. I tend to call it an overinflated sense of duty. LOL. But we were both raised that "the pursuit of happiness," is a shallow ideal. Better to pursue the right and then decide to be happy.

Interesting view, Daisy. Do you view happiness, essentially, as a decision? Not something that should guide one through whims of life, but an active stance - and that one can choose to be happy within whichever worldview matrix they operate, with its specific limitations?

[Parrothead]

Another (mostly) duty bound person. I do lots of things because they are the right thing to do, not necessarily what makes me happy.

[Guest]

I began homeschooling not because I had any desire to, but because dd wasn't going to be able to function in a school setting at that time (she was electively mute in preschool). After several years of juggling part-time university lecturing and research with this, I decided to give up my paid work as the demands and stresses of getting dd's diagnosis (Asperger's) and taking her to therapies increased.

 

This was NOT something I would have chosen if I had personal happiness in mind. I lost my colleagues, my financial independence, my place in the academic world. It was a major life change I made for dd's best interests rather than my own happiness; I felt it was necessary, someone had to do it, and I was pretty much it.

 

This is not to say that I haven't found unexpected happiness, indeed much joy, in the path I chose. But I did not choose it because I thought it would add to my personal happiness, and in fact there is much in my particular situation consequent to that decision that is very difficult.

 

My best friend is currently working for the VSO in Cambodia, has been there for three and a half years. It is a poorly paid, physically and emotionally wearing situation, but she felt very strongly that she wanted to work somewhere to help alleviate extreme poverty and promote education in a rural area. Again, this was not a decision she undertook to promote her own happiness; and again, this does not mean she doesn't find a great deal of personal satisfaction in what she's doing. But "happiness" did not govern or guide her as a primary goal, nor would I describe her life as an especially happy one. She has different things in mind.

 

Is this the kind of thing you mean? I don't know that either of us make every single decision based on similar values; but we've certainly made some really really big, life-altering choices with something very different than personal happiness as the goal.

[Ester Maria]

I'm with Daisy, there are some duty bound out there. I'm one of those.

Thank you for your reply.

I think many of us make decisions based upon what we feel is right as opposed to only what will make us happy. I also think people can take it to extremes.

 

My mom is someone who takes it to the extreme. Her physical health deteriorated horribly at one point and she became horribly depressed. Medication wouldn't even help ~ she had to stop what she felt was expected and choose to do something that would make her happy. It was hard for her and even today she has guilt that she wasn't able to do what she felt she should.

What if what we feel is right dramatically collides with what makes us happy? Say somebody has a spiritual calling to enter a monastery, but at the same time, they are a very worldly person who would be deeply unhappy within the confines of a monastic lifestyle. Would the person still be obliged to act upon that call? (Just a random example.)

 

Yes, this taking to extremes is actually the trigger for this thread... I am fairly convinced people like that are few and far between (but may be wrong!), who really, really cannot let go of their commitment to what they feel right even if it literally makes them miserable. Be it homeschooling, a marriage they feel they cannot leave because of a profound convinction that it ties two people for eternity and it is their duty to remain, etc.

I know someone (who is not a Christian and not trying to obey any "higher power") who stayed married to his lunatic of a wife because "The best thing I can do for my daughter is stay married to her mother."

His wife gave him every reason to believe she would make his life miserable, but he sacrificed his happiness for what he believed was best for his daughter.

That was 15 years ago~they are still together and...happy.

Staying in a profoundly unhappy marriage would be another one of those situations, yes. I think, though, that our motivations change dramatically when our children enter the situation - I do not find it that hard to believe that many people could be miserable for their children's sake, especially if they thought their children were potentially unsafe with unstable people, etc.

[Ginevra]

Another (mostly) duty bound person. I do lots of things because they are the right thing to do, not necessarily what makes me happy.

 

:iagree: So, for example, if my parents could no longer live at their house, I would agree to move them into my house, though I am sure this would not increase my happiness. I like living separate from my parents. They are lovely people...over there. ;) But I consult the principle involved and make my decision based upon that, not whether or not it increases my happiness.

 

However, I am also in the camp of "you choose your happiness." So, while having my parents live here would no doubt be fraught with annoyances, I would try to find personal happiness in the satisfaction of doing what I believe is right to do.

[Renee in NC]

Another (mostly) duty bound person. I do lots of things because they are the right thing to do, not necessarily what makes me happy.

 

Same here. I thought that was normal - I even teach my dc that! Happiness is not an actual destination, but rather an attitude about life. One can *choose* to be happy regardless of the circumstances.

[Ester Maria]

I began homeschooling not because I had any desire to, but because dd wasn't going to be able to function in a school setting at that time (she was electively mute in preschool). After several years of juggling part-time university lecturing and research with this, I decided to give up my paid work as the demands and stresses of getting dd's diagnosis (Asperger's) and taking her to therapies increased.

 

This was NOT something I would have chosen if I had personal happiness in mind. I lost my colleagues, my financial independence, my place in the academic world. It was a major life change I made for dd's best interests rather than my own happiness; I felt it was necessary, someone had to do it, and I was pretty much it.

 

This is not to say that I haven't found unexpected happiness, indeed much joy, in the path I chose. But I did not choose it because I thought it would add to my personal happiness, and in fact there is much in my particular situation consequent to that decision that is very difficult.

 

My best friend is currently working for the VSO in Cambodia, has been there for three and a half years. It is a poorly paid, physically and emotionally wearing situation, but she felt very strongly that she wanted to work somewhere to help alleviate extreme poverty and promote education in a rural area. Again, this was not a decision she undertook to promote her own happiness; and again, this does not mean she doesn't find a great deal of personal satisfaction in what she's doing. But "happiness" did not govern or guide her as a primary goal, nor would I describe her life as an especially happy one. She has different things in mind.

 

Is this the kind of thing you mean? I don't know that either of us make every single decision based on similar values; but we've certainly made some really really big, life-altering choices with something very different than personal happiness as the goal.

Thank you for your reply.

I do think though, as I said in my last reply (I think we were posting at the same time), that things do change when our children enter the game - I think most people of "usual" psychology would put their children's needs prior to their own for major, life-altering choices. I suppose it is only natural and, maybe, a bit of a paradox: I think that in those moments what makes us the "happiest" is knowing that we did the best choice for our children, rather than for ourselves. A sort of calm acceptance that their needs come before ours.

 

Children, however, are pretty much the only serious exception to that I can find - maybe, in some cases, spouses, or "life happening" in immediate family, things of the kind. But to start something, out of your free will, which you know will make you miserable and is not one of those things "needed" in life (now yes, we could debate what "needed" is in the first place, but I think urgent family matters would be put there), and there is an alternative - I have really met few individuals who did so, which is why I am curious in those choices.

[Scarlett]

Another (mostly) duty bound person. I do lots of things because they are the right thing to do, not necessarily what makes me happy.

 

Me too.

 

I can give you a great example. I was VERY unhappy with my first husband. For many many years. However, I felt that if at all possible I should stay with him. And I would have stayed until the end---he took it just a little too far and I used my get out of jail free card--so to speak.

 

Now I wasn't under some 'rule' which forced me to stay. I just thought that overall it was the right thing to do--in spite of the fact that I was very unhappy with him.

[Guest]

 

What if what we feel is right dramatically collides with what makes us happy?

 

I'm thinking of all the people who have done terribly painful and stressful things to ensure rights for others:

 

For instance, the Brown family in Brown vs. Board of Education, parents who sometimes went to jail to try to make homeschooling legal for all of us, whistle-blowers, workers demonstrating against inhumane working conditions in the 1900s, protesters who followed Ghandi and allowed themselves to be beaten, women who are teaching girls in Afghanistan despite the dangers... there are impressive numbers of people willing to do these things NOT only to improve life for themselves and their own children, but for those they do not know, who will come many years later.

 

I don't really even understand where some people got the courage to stand up for ideas they believed in, in the midst of societies that not only thought much differently but which punished those who held "deviant" thoughts or political opinions... I certainly could never be brave enough to do something like that were the lives of my immediate family members not in danger.

 

But all of these people seem to embody the value system you are talking about.

Edited August 2, 2011 by Guest

[Guest]

But to start something, out of your free will, which you know will make you miserable and is not one of those things "needed" in life (now yes, we could debate what "needed" is in the first place, but I think urgent family matters would be put there), and there is an alternative - I have really met few individuals who did so, which is why I am curious in those choices.

 

The example of my best friend fits this. No kids. And just by the by, she is an atheist, so she isn't governed by an idea of religious duty either.

[stripe]

But...doesn't doing one's duty ultimately make such a person happy in the end, because that person's values have been lived out?

 

I was just discussing with my parents paying taxes on items purchased out of state. Does it make me "happy" to do so? Only insofar as I think it is the right thing to do. Not because it's somehow fun to surrender money.

 

I think happiness has many layers, one of which is fun and short-lived, and another which is not. Is marriage itself (a happy marriage!) a situation in which one is happy all the time? How about having kids? It's not fun to be pregnant, give birth, change dirty diapers, but it is usually nice to have a child. And so on.

[stormy weather]

.

[zenjenn]

I'm not sure I'd call personal happiness the "ultimate good", but I do believe in a moral obligation to pursue personal happiness.

 

It is important to note here that I define "happiness" as deep, true, lasting happiness - not a pursuit of fleeting pleasure or lazy indulgence. For example, for most people, eating to excess does not bring you happiness, it brings you pleasure. Eating in a balanced diet will ultimately give you true satisfaction and personal happiness.

 

Thus, doing your *duty* is sometimes what leads to meaningful happiness. You cannot be happy if you are filled with self-loathing for being lazy, gluttonous, unscrupulous, etc. Even if those actions provide momentary pleasure, is that really happiness?

 

Truly, meaningfully happy people tend to be more productive and bring joy to others. Truly meaningfully happy people do not do hurtful or destructive things. Thus, by pursuing happiness one is doing one's small part to create a better world.

 

So for the example of the mother who homeschooled out of *duty* - I can't speak for her personally, but I do think there is a point where if the hatred of the task were deep enough, it would manifest in destructive ways - impatience, anger, stress - in which case ignoring her personal happiness would not be in anyone's best interests.

 

If she hated her task the entire time and still managed to remain patient, calm, enlightening, and enthusiastic in her actions and attitude - well, she is a far more disciplined person than me or virtually anyone I know. I can sometimes force myself to *act* happy even if I am not, but when I do, my feelings usually follow and I start to appreciate my tasks. If they don't, I cannot keep up an "act" forever.

[Scarlett]

:iagree: So, for example, if my parents could no longer live at their house, I would agree to move them into my house, though I am sure this would not increase my happiness. I like living separate from my parents. They are lovely people...over there. ;) But I consult the principle involved and make my decision based upon that, not whether or not it increases my happiness.

 

However, I am also in the camp of "you choose your happiness." So, while having my parents live here would no doubt be fraught with annoyances, I would try to find personal happiness in the satisfaction of doing what I believe is right to do.

 

Yes to this, especially the bolded. I stayed with my XH who made me very UNhappy, but I found happiness in doing the right thing AND I made my own happiness in that marriage apart from him.

[PeacefulChaos]

I'm (sort of) in the duty camp also... I'm kind of with a couple of different examples others have mentioned.

I tend to go for what is right over being 'happy'. Honestly, what is happiness? Long term happiness? Short term happiness? I actually am finding the word rather lacking as I sit and think on it... (for short term things, the word happy fits. For long term, not so much. I'm thinking more fulfillment or joy, something that has a greater meaning than just a surface feeling.) But I digress - I can't really think of a time where we have done anything just to 'be happy'. And most people I know are similar.

I don't know if that answers the question. But I'd rather do the right thing and fulfill my purpose on earth than just 'be happy'. (oh, and I also agree that doing the right thing would make people happy in the end, anyway! :001_smile:)

[Ester Maria]

For instance, the Brown family in Brown vs. Board of Education, parents who sometimes went to jail to try to make homeschooling legal for all of us, whistle-blowers, workers demonstrating against inhumane working conditions in the 1900s, protesters who followed Ghandi and allowed themselves to be beaten, women who are teaching girls in Afghanistan despite the dangers... there are impressive numbers of people willing to do these things NOT only to improve life for themselves and their own children, but for those they do not know, who will come many years later.

But could it not be said that those people operated, in some way, FOR their happiness - FOR attaining a certain goal, even if the process to get there was painful, but were not their ultimate motivations something which would be a greater source of happiness for them?

 

I am not sure how exactly to describe it, but I sort of have in mind the decisions the enactment of which would not, and could not, bring about any sort of personal satisfaction... a sort of pure "masochism", out of a specific value system. Not believing that your path to your happiness and your fulfillment is simply more difficult than other people's, but a sort of "twisted" (for lack of a better expression, I do not intend to offend) view that you are not to be fulfilled if what makes you happy is against your value system? Think of a person who is homosexual, but strongly feels a duty to procreate and have a "normal" family, in spite of knowing that such a choice goes against their happiness, but follows "objective" values (which is an oxymoron, yes, values are by definition subjective, but you get what I mean)? I had in mind more those types of situations, rather than homosexual people marching and being beaten while fighting for the rights of homosexuals.

[Entropymama]

My pastor counciled a woman once who was divorced. She became a Christian after her divorce, met a man and fell in love. They wanted to get married but she wasn't sure if marriage after divorce counted as adultery. So she went to the pastor to find out. She was deeply in love with this man but was willing to live a life without him if marrying him was against God's word. She put her commitment to God over her own happiness. Maybe that's an extreme example, but it meant that much to her. (They did get married, btw)

[PeacefulChaos]

Ah, I'm seeing what you are meaning, I think. Kind of like people who take a very ascetic approach in their religion?

[Impish]

Another (mostly) duty bound person. I do lots of things because they are the right thing to do, not necessarily what makes me happy.

:iagree:

I think the whole personal happiness thing is mostly a load of hooey, and responsible for the incredibly high divorce rates and single parent families that exist in North America.

 

Ppl are so wrapped up in making themselves happy that the idea of being the slightest bit uncomfortable for any period of time is considered a tragedy of epic proportions.

 

I mean...I have what I consider a pretty good marriage. Does that mean I'm always *happy* to be married to my husband, or heck, even married at all? Pfffft! And I've no doubt at all that he has those times too!

 

Same goes with being a parent. There have been times where I wish I'd raised fish. You can flush fish. Or tomatoes. You can eat tomatoes.

 

Or homeschooling. I've had daydreams of wrapping Diva in duct tape, dropping her off at the local ps, and running away, screaming, "She's your problem now, suckers!"

 

But...I don't. I stand in my commitments, understanding that even if something isn't making me happy right now, if its driving me right round the bend, even miserable, to keep going. This too shall pass.

 

And even the things I do more out of duty than anything else, that frankly, I suffer through a moment at a time, I still stand fast and get them done.

 

Happiness is a choice. Finding joy where you can requires effort.

[Ester Maria]

Ah, I'm seeing what you are meaning, I think. Kind of like people who take a very ascetic approach in their religion?

Yes, though not exclusively: anyone who feels bound to a certain value system which goes against their nature / instincts / call it what you wish and who as a result of conflict opts for the "masochistic" solution.

 

It can be mothers hating homeschooling, but being convinced it is a religious duty. Or quiverful people who would actually be the happiest with one child, but really really feel compelled to let God decide, even if it makes them less happy in many ways. Or people who hate volunteering of any type, but force themselves to do - while disliking it - because they see a value in it. Or homosexuals making mainstream lifestlye choices. People not starting an interfaith relationship even if it literally breaks their hearts. Or people who would have married, and madly love somebody, but put their faith first and cannot go interfaith, and regret that choice consistently, and do what they are "expected" to do in their faith, and find it a just choice, and still hate it, but do it. Things of the kind.

[Ester Maria]

bit uncomfortable for any period of time is considered a tragedy of epic proportions.

 

I mean...I have what I consider a pretty good marriage. Does that mean I'm always *happy* to be married to my husband, or heck, even married at all? Pfffft! And I've no doubt at all that he has those times too!

 

Same goes with being a parent. There have been times where I wish I'd raised fish. You can flush fish. Or tomatoes. You can eat tomatoes.

 

Or homeschooling. I've had daydreams of wrapping Diva in duct tape, dropping her off at the local ps, and running away, screaming, "She's your problem now, suckers!"

 

But...I don't. I stand in my commitments, understanding that even if something isn't making me happy right now, if its driving me right round the bend, even miserable, to keep going. This too shall pass.

But that is exactly what I am NOT talking about! :tongue_smilie:

I get I have problems wording things, though, hopefully I made it more clear in the subsequent posts. I do not talk about "crises" in a "normal" life one is generally happy to lead - those are, well, a part of the package. I talk more about choosing a completely different package in the first place than one would normally feel inclined to, out of a feeling of a duty to a value system or something comparable. Does it make sense?

 

Not like having crises with children - more like hating children, but opting to have them because you see a value in it or you subscribe to a religion that mandates having children if you can or whatnot. Not normal "crises" in a lifestyle you naturally tend to - but choosing something which you do not tend to at all, because you still hold it a value and for so, you are willing to even lead a miserable life, if need be.

[Scarlett]

Yes, though not exclusively: anyone who feels bound to a certain value system which goes against their nature / instincts / call it what you wish and who as a result of conflict opts for the "masochistic" solution.

 

It can be mothers hating homeschooling, but being convinced it is a religious duty. Or quiverful people who would actually be the happiest with one child, but really really feel compelled to let God decide, even if it makes them less happy in many ways. Or people who hate volunteering of any type, but force themselves to do - while disliking it - because they see a value in it. Or homosexuals making mainstream lifestlye choices. People not starting an interfaith relationship even if it literally breaks their hearts. Or people who would have married, and madly love somebody, but put their faith first and cannot go interfaith, and regret that choice consistently, and do what they are "expected" to do in their faith, and find it a just choice, and still hate it, but do it. Things of the kind.

 

I know many many people who live this way. It is called living with integrity.

 

I am always amazed when people choose NOT to operate this way. I don't know how they look at themselves in the mirror each day. And that is not to say there aren't mistakes made....but that is quite a different matter than a deliberate choice to do something contrary to your value system...such as choose to leave your spouse to be with another man/woman because you want to be 'happy.'

[LibraryLover]

I honestly don't think I've ever made any decision that made me miserable.

 

Bad things have happened, sure. I've done difficult things, I've loved and cared for sick and dying loved ones; held their hands and kissed them into the next workd. I've birthed babies without drugs. I've kissed my dh goodbye for long work trips and cared for the children myself. That's my choice.

 

I *chose* it all. I don't think of any of that as 'duty'. This is my life.

 

I've never done a single thing for sufferring's sake.

 

Nor do I feel 'called' to hs. I would never do this if I made my child miserable in the process. I hs because it works for us, for my child. The minute it doesn't is the day it stops.

Edited August 2, 2011 by LibraryLover

[Colleen in NS]

My best friend is currently working for the VSO in Cambodia, has been there for three and a half years. It is a poorly paid, physically and emotionally wearing situation, but she felt very strongly that she wanted to work somewhere to help alleviate extreme poverty and promote education in a rural area. Again, this was not a decision she undertook to promote her own happiness; and again, this does not mean she doesn't find a great deal of personal satisfaction in what she's doing. But "happiness" did not govern or guide her as a primary goal, nor would I describe her life as an especially happy one. She has different things in mind.

 

But...doesn't doing one's duty ultimately make such a person happy in the end, because that person's values have been lived out?

 

But could it not be said that those people operated, in some way, FOR their happiness - FOR attaining a certain goal, even if the process to get there was painful, but were not their ultimate motivations something which would be a greater source of happiness for them?

 

Vague thoughts here as I read through....I'm sort of thinking that just because we are human, we probably do tend to lean towards decisions that we somehow hope/believe *will* bring happiness to us in some way/shape/form. If someone is choosing to do something that truly will make them miserable, I'd have to question why. "You are marrying that person because...God told you to do so?? What exactly do you mean? Or is it deep down because you find something attractive about that person? Or, is it because you believe you have no choice in the matter because of your philosophy about life decisions?"

 

Very simplistically, my first foray into the world of "Christian missions" was via a two month trip to Mexico. On the outside, it was all about me selflessly dedicating my life and finances to this trip, to help other people in a place I was afraid to go to, doing stuff I'd never done before. I was afraid and at first had no interest in going. But looking back I suppose way deep down was a desire for happiness, a desire to find some deeper meaning for my life as I was graduating from high school, a desire to please the person who was trying to talk me into going, a desire to "do the right thing" - but it all boiled down to my happiness within myself. So, yeah, I could say that I was looking for happiness, even though I would never have believed it back then. (and I did get happiness out of that trip - it was wonderful for me, and hopefully for those I worked to help)

 

At this point in my life, I have a hard time believing that someone would deliberately dedicate themselves to a cause that they KNOW will make them absolutely miserable with no chance for happiness (leaving our duty to our kids out of the equation), without maybe asking, "Why are they punishing themselves so harshly?" But then again, who REALLY knows what is going on inside a person.

Edited August 2, 2011 by Colleen in NS

[Ester Maria]

I know many many people who live this way. It is called living with integrity.

 

I am always amazed when people choose NOT to operate this way. I don't know how they look at themselves in the mirror each day. And that is not to say there aren't mistakes made....but that is quite a different matter than a deliberate choice to do something contrary to your value system...such as choose to leave your spouse to be with another man/woman because you want to be 'happy.'

I do think that living with integrity is a rather mainstream option - but for people of, shall we call it, mainstream preferences in the first place. What I am interested in is the psychology of people who have preferences which are so against what they believe they should do that they, in many ways, ruin their lives, yet they do it. Do you not find that there is something unusual about people who really take integrity and values that far? I think those are things that most of us can easily walk over in everyday situations or temporary "crises" - but in an overall lifestyle which we already find deeply satisfying. What if our values prescribed taking a lifestyle which was not satisfying in the first place? I like to think of myself as a strong person, but that person really makes me doubt myself :tongue_smilie: - I am honestly not sure that, in their shoes, I would make that choice, because I see just how much harm and hurt there is involved and I am deeply conviced - as is the person! - that the other choice would have brought about a more sane / happier / healthier / better-functioning adult.

[Hannah C.]

Yes, though not exclusively: anyone who feels bound to a certain value system which goes against their nature / instincts / call it what you wish and who as a result of conflict opts for the "masochistic" solution.

 

It can be mothers hating homeschooling, but being convinced it is a religious duty. Or quiverful people who would actually be the happiest with one child, but really really feel compelled to let God decide, even if it makes them less happy in many ways. Or people who hate volunteering of any type, but force themselves to do - while disliking it - because they see a value in it. Or homosexuals making mainstream lifestlye choices. People not starting an interfaith relationship even if it literally breaks their hearts. Or people who would have married, and madly love somebody, but put their faith first and cannot go interfaith, and regret that choice consistently, and do what they are "expected" to do in their faith, and find it a just choice, and still hate it, but do it. Things of the kind.

 

I know (of) people who who would fall under this category, and to an extent I may fall under it as well.

 

For me, it does have to do with religion - being so convinced that it is true that I can't in good conscience do what I want or what would make me happy, because if this religion is true, and they say don't do this, then the consequences for *doing* this would be severe. I *could* walk away, yes, but my conviction about the truth of this religion makes that an even more untenable situation than the original one! ...Make sense? :)

 

ETA: and in my case (and others I know of) it does have to do with being quite un-mainstream.

[LibraryLover]

Are you talking about people who live a certain way and complain incessantly about it and/or want you to tell them how wonderful they are because they suffer so?

 

Those sort of folks do make me pause. Too many people want too much credit for living a human life. Some too, continue to do things that do not make sense for their circumstance but want help and constant sympathy. I do think there are people who believe they are something other than what they present. People who keep walking into the same ditch but never go down another street to avoid that ditch, do make me :tongue_smilie: BTW, that's a 'poem'; I didn't make up the metaphor.

Edited August 2, 2011 by LibraryLover

[Murphy101]

Better to pursue the right and then decide to be happy.

 

One can *choose* to be happy regardless of the circumstances.

 

:iagree:

[Ester Maria]

Thank you everyone for your replies - I did not except so much interest in my musings LOL, so I am sorry if I do not reply to each one in particular, but I read them and appreciate them all. :)

On the outside, it was all about me selflessly dedicating my life and finances to this trip, to help other people in a place I was afraid to go to, doing stuff I'd never done before. I was afraid and at first had no interest in going. But looking back I suppose way deep down was a desire for happiness, a desire to find some deeper meaning for my life as I was graduating from high school, a desire to please the person who was trying to talk me into going, a desire to "do the right thing" - but it all boiled down to my happiness within myself. So, yeah, I could say that I was looking for happiness, even though I would never have believed it back then. (and I did get happiness out of that trip - it was wonderful for me, and hopefully for those I worked to help)

I was afraid to bring up these examples, Colleen, but I thought of these options too... how many times we are fundamentally motivated by happiness, even if we "clothe" it differently? I am entertaining, sort of, an idea that some people are just not fundamentally motivated by happiness, and it really strikes me as such an odd idea. I am not talking about temporary life crises which happen on a playing field you had chosen already - but a sort of choosing of a completley uncongenial playing field in the first place type of situation. It does look like sheer masochism to me on the outside, really like something I would not label "usual psychology" (though again, what is that anyway? LOL) - is it possible to be so fundamentally driven by a set of ideas or values, rather than "clothed happiness"? And really opt for the road which makes one less happy, less fulfilled, leading a life even they admit as a lesser quality life?

Are you talking about people who live a certain way and complain incessently about it and/or want you to tell them how wonderful they are because they suffer so?

 

Those sort of folks do make me pause. Too many people want too much credit for living a human life. They think they are something other people do not quite see. :tongue_smilie:

Ah, no! Though I get what you mean - but I actually find incessant complaints about being human to be a VERY usual thing among humans, LOL! :lol: I would not think twice to open a thread about it, I think!

[dhudson]

My parents told me incessantly, "Do the right thing and then you'll feel the right thing.". I learned that my personal feelings were second to what was right. I do the right thing and then choose to be happy or not, but happiness in my view is a choice and I don't make decisions based on that.

[LibraryLover]

Except there's nothing happy about watching loved ones die, say. People who do this, do it because they want to do it. Whatever the reason, it's a choice. Maybe you do not want regrets, maybe you want the person to know they are loved, maybe you want to make ammends etc. This is all done because we choose to do it. If we didn't want to do it, we would not. It's *not* simply a matter of duty.

 

We can tell ourselves it is, but we also know we would hate ourselves/feel uncomfortable otherwise. That makes it a choice.

Edited August 2, 2011 by LibraryLover

[Ester Maria]

Except there's nothing happy about watching loved ones die, say. People who do this, do it because they want to do it. Whatever the reason, it's a choice. Maybe you do not want regrets, maybe you want the person to know they are loved, maybe you want to make ammends etc. This is all done because we choose to do it. If we didn't want to do it, we would not. It's *not* simply a matter of duty.

 

We can tell ourselves it is, but we also know we would hate ourselves/feel uncomfortable otherwise. That makes it a choice.

I recognize all of the things we brought up in this thread are essentially choices - even if we "feel compelled" to do something, in effects, it is a choice: we recognize we could have done differently.

 

And I think that when it comes to hard choices in life, there are some patterns which most people are going to follow - and when "life happens", they will do the right thing in their eyes, put other things on hold, sacrifice themselves for others or emotionally, etc.

 

But what I have in mind in a sort of... a complete organization of a life... in a way that is not congenial to who you are, simply out of a duty feeling. Not dealing with infelicities of life, as hard as they but - but sort of choosing the downright opposite of "you" and not being fulfilled by it, yet standing by that choice. Do you not think it is an unusal thing? Or I am fooling myself and it is a very normal thing indeed?

[Guest]

I guess one issue is whether or not it is possible to feel fulfilled, as in having the sense of doing something right, or important, or necessary, without being necessarily personally satisfied or happy about the life you live in order to do whatever it is you are doing... if that pile of abstractions makes any sense.

 

Coming back to my friend in Cambodia: I think she feels that she is doing something necessary and important, but yes, at great cost to her emotional and intellectual level of satisfaction and/or happiness. In her particular case, this does not seem to be masochistic to me, but I truly don't know how to explain the difference.

[Kathleen in VA]

I'm not sure I'd call personal happiness the "ultimate good", but I do believe in a moral obligation to pursue personal happiness.

 

It is important to note here that I define "happiness" as deep, true, lasting happiness - not a pursuit of fleeting pleasure or lazy indulgence. For example, for most people, eating to excess does not bring you happiness, it brings you pleasure. Eating in a balanced diet will ultimately give you true satisfaction and personal happiness.

Thus, doing your *duty* is sometimes what leads to meaningful happiness. You cannot be happy if you are filled with self-loathing for being lazy, gluttonous, unscrupulous, etc. Even if those actions provide momentary pleasure, is that really happiness?

 

Truly, meaningfully happy people tend to be more productive and bring joy to others. Truly meaningfully happy people do not do hurtful or destructive things. Thus, by pursuing happiness one is doing one's small part to create a better world.

 

So for the example of the mother who homeschooled out of *duty* - I can't speak for her personally, but I do think there is a point where if the hatred of the task were deep enough, it would manifest in destructive ways - impatience, anger, stress - in which case ignoring her personal happiness would not be in anyone's best interests.

 

If she hated her task the entire time and still managed to remain patient, calm, enlightening, and enthusiastic in her actions and attitude - well, she is a far more disciplined person than me or virtually anyone I know. I can sometimes force myself to *act* happy even if I am not, but when I do, my feelings usually follow and I start to appreciate my tasks. If they don't, I cannot keep up an "act" forever.

 

I like the bolded part as I believe it makes the distinction between momentary "happiness" and long-term happiness. Doing one's duty may be unpleasant for a season, but it does bring long-term satisfaction.

 

I know many many people who live this way. It is called living with integrity.

 

I am always amazed when people choose NOT to operate this way. I don't know how they look at themselves in the mirror each day. And that is not to say there aren't mistakes made....but that is quite a different matter than a deliberate choice to do something contrary to your value system...such as choose to leave your spouse to be with another man/woman because you want to be 'happy.'

 

:iagree:Violating the dictates of your conscience may bring you a moment of pleasure but it will not bring lasting happiness.

[LibraryLover]

I recognize all of the things we brought up in this thread are essentially choices - even if we "feel compelled" to do something, in effects, it is a choice: we recognize we could have done differently.

 

And I think that when it comes to hard choices in life, there are some patterns which most people are going to follow - and when "life happens", they will do the right thing in their eyes, put other things on hold, sacrifice themselves for others or emotionally, etc.

 

But what I have in mind in a sort of... a complete organization of a life... in a way that is not congenial to who you are, simply out of a duty feeling. Not dealing with infelicities of life, as hard as they but - but sort of choosing the downright opposite of "you" and not being fulfilled by it, yet standing by that choice. Do you not think it is an unusal thing? Or I am fooling myself and it is a very normal thing indeed?

 

 

I don't know. I do wonder whether *certain* misery is a choice. (Not talking about the poor woman living in a tent in Darfur, of course.) What of a woman in an abusive situation; do you stay for the sake of the children, or do you leave for the sake of the children? I may be totally misunderstanding your question, and I do think people do many things that seem to make no sense. I think many operate out of a sense of fear, of fear of change. The devil you know is more comforting than the devil you don't etc.

Edited August 2, 2011 by LibraryLover

[Colleen in NS]

...is it possible to be so fundamentally driven by a set of ideas or values, rather than "clothed happiness"? And really opt for the road which makes one less happy, less fulfilled, leading a life even they admit as a lesser quality life?

 

:lurk5:

Edited August 3, 2011 by Colleen in NS

[stormy weather]

. 

 

[Sputterduck]

a) Happiness is far from the most important thing in life.

 

b) What good is religion if it doesn't matter anymore once it no longer makes us happy? Being in a religion for our own happiness is... well... that's missing the whole point.

 

c) Living life for our own happiness is selfish. I hope I don't offend anyone saying so. If I live my life for *myself*, well, I've gone and wasted my life.

 

d) I think in making decisions, most of the time I'm not even sure if my own happiness enters my mind. It's just not that important.

[eternalknot]

But what I have in mind in a sort of... a complete organization of a life... in a way that is not congenial to who you are, simply out of a duty feeling. Not dealing with infelicities of life, as hard as they but - but sort of choosing the downright opposite of "you" and not being fulfilled by it, yet standing by that choice. Do you not think it is an unusal thing? Or I am fooling myself and it is a very normal thing indeed?

 

Perhaps it's cultural?

 

This isn't unusual in my culture. I'm East Asian.

[LibraryLover]

So it doesn't make you happy to contribute and live your life in a way that makes sense for you? Are you not happy to serve?

 

UNless you are not being forced to live in a way that you find miserable and have no way out...I don't think that is the case for you?

 

I just don't believe you don't find meaning and happiness in your life. No offense, but I don't. :)

 

Even Mother Teresa, no matter what she felt 'called' to do, said she found joy in her life's work. She chose to find meaning in the pain. It did bring her happiness.

 

a) Happiness is far from the most important thing in life.

 

b) What good is religion if it doesn't matter anymore once it no longer makes us happy? Being in a religion for our own happiness is... well... that's missing the whole point.

 

c) Living life for our own happiness is selfish. I hope I don't offend anyone saying so. If I live my life for *myself*, well, I've gone and wasted my life.

 

d) I think in making decisions, most of the time I'm not even sure if my own happiness enters my mind. It's just not that important.

Edited August 2, 2011 by LibraryLover

[gardenmom5]

there are many things that are greater than our personal happiness. getting up at 2am is one. ;p

 

e.g. caring for an aged parent who had many shortcomings as a parent that caused us much suffering is something that we do because it is "right", not because it makes us happy in the moment.

 

I believe it is more important to do what is "right", ahead of what would "make me happy". most definitions of happiness are a transitory feeling. true happiness comes from doing the distance race of what is right over the long haul.

[LibraryLover]

there are many things that are greater than our personal happiness. getting up at 2am is one. ;p

 

e.g. caring for an aged parent who had many shortcomings as a parent that caused us much suffering is something that we do because it is "right", not because it makes us happy in the moment.

 

I believe it is more important to do what is "right", ahead of what would "make me happy". most definitions of happiness are a transitory feeling. true happiness comes from doing the distance race of what is right over the long haul.

 

 

And this is always a choice. It's not duty alone. The duty makes you happy.

 

I didn't like getting up at 2am to nurse an infant, but I wanted to do it. I made the choice to do it. I didn't do it only for the child. Dh could have given the baby formula. I didn't want the baby to have formula...or even pumped breast milk., I *wanted* the baby to have me. It pleased me to care for my baby. Even when I wanted to sleep.

Edited August 2, 2011 by LibraryLover

[Jean in Newcastle]

There are people who glory in their misery. They aren't happy in it but have a certain arrogance about making such sacrifices of their life. These people tend to bring up their sacrifice a lot because the real pay off for them is in the attention they get for being so self-sacrificing.

 

There are others who treat themselves poorly because somehow they think they deserve it. They are not happy in their misery either but can't say yes to things that would make them happy. There was a period of time in my college years when I veered toward this extreme. This too is a rather arrogant perception too because they've cast themselves as the ones to decide what they deserve or not.

 

I think with maturity I've learned to put surface or immediate happiness aside in favor of virtue. My dh and I were in a ministry position for 6 years that was very dysfunctional. We could have left and no one would have blamed us. But dh first, and then I came to agree with him, felt that this was our calling for that time. We had given our word and we stuck by it despite a lot of garbage. But once we had resolve, we learned to laugh at our dilemma at times and to get what little joy we could out of it or at least learned to endure it without too much misery. Looking back, I'm glad that we stuck it out because what I learned in going through that was much more valuable than my happiness during that time.