National Geographic, child bride article...

[fairfarmhand]

I got my magazine yesterday and was horrified at this article.

 

It is heartbreaking. A bit of me wonders if this is for real or sensationalism. (really really hoping it is sensationalism.)

 

http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2011/06/child-brides/gorney-text

[leeannpal]

Well, it is not expressly for sensationalism. While the magazine might be doing and article on it for that purpose, child brides do exist in quite a number of places, particularly in the Middle East and Indian subcontinent.

 

This article is about the death of a child bride in Yemen.

 

http://articles.cnn.com/2010-04-09/world/yemen.child.bride.death_1_yemeni-marriage-child-brides?_s=PM:WORLD

[Impish]

I don't see it being sensationalism. Horrible truth, but not sensationalism.

 

Child brides have been happening for forever. As long as a woman's worth is tied up in her virginity, it will continue to happen.

[unsinkable]

Child brides marrying cousins. :(

[Guest RecumbentHeart]

 

Child brides have been happening for forever. As long as a woman's worth is tied up in her virginity, it will continue to happen.

 

As beautiful as "waiting until marriage" is, this just makes me nauseous. :(

[fairfarmhand]

I have 3 girls. Ages 6, 9 and 13. I cannot imagine them having to go through that.

 

The photo of the 14 yr old girl bathing her newborn, while her 2 yr old looks on, just hurts my heart.

 

The idea of a 12 yr old experiencing childbirth....ugh.

[Impish]

As beautiful as "waiting until marriage" is, this just makes me nauseous. :(

I hear you. But that seems to be an issue in the article. Once the girl is married, she's now the responsibility of her husband, and the family isn't 'stuck' with her if she ends up being raped. Marrying her off early to ensure she has what value she can seems to be the logic.

[Parrothead]

I hear you. But that seems to be an issue in the article. Once the girl is married, she's now the responsibility of her husband, and the family isn't 'stuck' with her if she ends up being raped. Marrying her off early to ensure she has what value she can seems to be the logic.

I think this is only part of the problem. The other part is the grown men raping these children under the guise of marital relations. They are sick and perverted.

[Strawberry Queen]

That is incredibly sad. As the article says the answers aren't simple. It can only happen as the families themselves decide to change. Police and laws can't change how a society functions overnight. Part of it may be in educating everyone concerned. Not just about child marriage but a more extensive education. So often people are taken advantage of because they are illiterate-they sign things that they don't understand which gets them into trouble. Then, they sometimes use their children as a way of getting out of trouble. :(

[i.love.lucy]

You can feel the palpable helplessness of the author who wants to snatch these children and run. But then, run where? To what?

 

So, so sad, sick and disgusting.

[Jen500]

Child brides marrying cousins. :(

 

Wasn't there some FLDS sects accused of similar abuses?

[Luckymama]

The picture of the 11yo bride made my heart hurt. My baby is 11yo.

[Guest RecumbentHeart]

I think this is only part of the problem. The other part is the grown men raping these children under the guise of marital relations. They are sick and perverted.

 

 

The whole picture is nauseating - either rape under the guise of marriage or if it's not done this way, (from the way it's described) there's a high chance of them being raped by someone else. There is some deeply rooted sickness and perversion going on here.

[Aelwydd]

Why must women be the ones to sacrifice, I asked, and the look Shobha gave me suggested that only one of us, at that moment, understood the world in which she lives. "Because our country is man-oriented," she said.[/Quote]This is the point I attempted to make on the Secretariat thread several days ago. It was being debated whether the main character in the movie (a wife and mother) was selfish for being willing to leave her family for several months over the period of two years to see the training of the horse accomplished.

 

 

It's easy for us here in the West affect shock and dismay when we hear about child brides and young girls being sold off into marriage. But, the logic that buttresses these inhumane practices is the same which fuels so much inequality even in the West.

 

We have it here, in the form of "submission" in Christian marriages, and the idea that in a union of male and female, it is the male who is named "head," and therefore given authority. Pithy verses in the NT about "Loving his wife" and being willing to sacrifice for her do not nullify, nor alter, the level of power given to him. He is charged to care for her, but when both men and women have been raised in this unequal paradigm their entire lives, it makes it difficult for those women who are being controlled, to believe that they, in fact, have a right to resist. Just like the young brides of Yemeni, many girls here are taught at home, in church, and by other relatives that their calling is to submit to a man's authority. Defer, submit, sacrifice, and sublimate your own desires.. The message is the same.

 

(There is nowhere in the NT where it says that a woman who is controlled or abused by her husband has the right to defy him, leave him, or divorce him. If he does these things, he's wrong, but he's not expected to give up his authority, or his rights to her.)

 

I expect there are several here who will take issue at the comparison, and who believe it is completely different. But, I maintain that both ideals are based upon the idea that women and men are unequal in terms of decision-making power, and thus, self-determinism is also unequal. And until the West is more consistent in its practice of egalitarianism, we will not be as effective in our criticism of other countries, when they treat their sons and daughters differently and unequally to the point of making sons valuable, but daughters a liability.

Edited May 24, 2011 by Aelwydd

[FaithManor]

We help to support a doctor with "Doctor's Without Borders" and he is a personal friend. He has worked in, many, many areas of the world. He sees this kind of thing all of the time and says that what we in most western hemispheric nations would consider child s**ual abuse and male perversion is the norm. All wrong doing, when it comes to s** is exclusively the province of women. They deserve what they get is the philosophy. It's accepted as normal and a man is unbelievably glorified for being "her first". So, there is great pride in raping a young girl. Though some countries do have laws on the books technically making these things crimes, it is unenforced because it's kind of hard to get your police and military to do anything about it when they've been raised in a culture that tells them this is okay. Now obviously, this is general and only generally true. There are sub-pockets, some families, some tribes, some areas within larger cultures that do rebel and abhor these practices. But, this behavior is accepted on a fairly wide behavior in several countries.

 

He has personally held a young girl in his arms while she died. Her mother brought her to the clinic, age 13, after she was brutally raped by her husband. She apparently wasn't cooperating and that is just not acceptable. Any amount of brute force is allowed. She needed a blood transfusion and he didn't have any in his clinic. The drive to the hospital was just too far. She didn't make it, but the last face she saw on this earth was one of love and compassion. He sang to her until she was gone - her mother held her hand while crying hysterically. When he got home on his last break and related this story to us and another group of friends who have financially supported him, we cried and cried. It is just gut-wrenching.

 

The absolute, mind-boggling worst thing is that if he had saved her, then when she was well again, her parents would have returned her to that pig. Since it was crime for her to struggle against him and NOT a crime for him to physically assault her with deadly force, they would not be able to legally keep her at home or secure a divorce for her. Occasionally, rarely, a young girl can get a divorce...sometimes they can find a sympathetic court. Not often.

 

It's sick, sick, sick, sick, sick and it makes my gut ache. Maybe, just maybe, since National Geographic is widely subscribed to and as a general rule, well thought of amongst the public, it will bring some international outrage that will cause some pockets of the world to rethink their policies and definitions of "crime" against women and girls. Me thinks this would be a rare thing, but just maybe......

 

Faith

[Guest RecumbentHeart]

Defer, submit, sacrifice, and sublimate your own desires.. The message is the same.

 

(There is nowhere in the NT where it says that a woman who is controlled or abused by her husband has the right to defy him, leave him, or divorce him. If he does these things, he's wrong, but he's not expected to give up his authority, or his rights to her.)

 

If men are taught Scripturally, they are taught to do the same as they too are under authority and there is recourse for those who defy it by lording it over their wives. Which brings up the point that you are misrepresenting Scripture but I understand - I grew up in church and they never taught me what the Bible really teaches in these things. Most of it isn't in the passages most specifically referring to husband's and wives so perhaps that makes it easy to miss before we become acquainted with the whole picture of the Divine revelation provided within the pages of Scripture.

 

All that we see in these cultures or ours is perversion of the original institution. God made marriage good (an understated word) in a degree very few people understand, let alone experience good in marriage. We've fallen so far and the answer isn't further perversion - it's repentance to the Creator God whom the creature denies.

[Aelwydd]

If men are taught Scripturally, they are taught to do the same as they too are under authority and there is recourse for those who defy it by lording it over their wives. Which brings up the point that you are misrepresenting Scripture but I understand - I grew up in church and they never taught me what the Bible really teaches in these things.[/Quote]

 

I hear you, but I am not misrepresenting Scripture. I am presenting a valid and popular interpretation of it. I am not saying that mine is the only valid interpretation. As you yourself have experienced, churches reinforce this viewpoint because enough of them do not teach beyond "Wives submit," and to pray for those husbands who are ogres. I have never heard from a pulpit, "Wives, if your husband is abusing his authority, and acting in a way that is not considerate, you have the right to ignore his commands, and have your own mind."

 

No. The "answer" is usually counseling, most often by another male authority figure, usually the pastor. With the objective being to gentle the husband--not balance the decision-making power between husbands and wives.

 

Because it is not equal.

 

 

Most of it isn't in the passages most specifically referring to husband's and wives so perhaps that makes it easy to miss before we become acquainted with the whole picture of the Divine revelation provided within the pages of Scripture.

 

All that we see in these cultures or ours is perversion of the original institution. God made marriage good (an understated word) in a degree very few people understand, let alone experience good in marriage. We've fallen so far and the answer isn't further perversion - it's repentance to the Creator God whom the creature denies.

 

I understand all that, really I do. Rest assured, I've read the entire Bible, more than once. I was raised in an evangelical denomination, was "saved" at age 3, baptized at age 5 (at my request), and began serious study of the Bible at age 12. I was part of a Bible quiz team for 4 years, where we had to commit huge portions of the NT to memory.

 

Please believe me, I'm very familiar with all of the teachings on Christian marriage.

 

To turn this back to the original subject of the thread, many of the practices we find repugnant are based on a premise that women are inferior to men. A huge proportion of those societies which practice things such as child marriage (really, child rape) and female genital mutilation are Islamic, a fact which I do not find coincidental. Though these practices owe their beginnings to obscure cultural roots pre-dating Islam and Christianity, the reason that they are still being practiced today is due in large part, to the sustained belief that women are born to be owned and used by men. Islam does promote a view of women, in my opinion, that relegates them to second-class status.

 

Here in the West, Christian societies in the past have also had its times when 11-14 year old girls would be married off by their fathers to other full grown men. Do you think it was any less hideous an existence for those girls? The only difference between our societal past and the present situation of these poor child brides is that their societies have not undergone their Enlightenment.

 

We've moved pass that stage, but we still promulgate some of the same ideals that supported those practices then and now, in other societies. And those ideals, based upon not just Christian, but Islamic, and Hindi concepts (it seemed few religions could pass up the opportunity to degrade women) could be summed up as: Women are given over to the authority of men, because they are too weak, or too emotional, or too easily deceived to make their own choices, and be their own authority.

 

Abolish that premise, and replace it with a simple: Men and women are equally valuable to the species emotionally, intellectually, physically, and psychologically, and therefore should be equally empowered to determine their own fate.

 

Do that, and the entire underpinnings of sexist practice from child marriage to over-controlling husbands in the West are undone.

[AngelBee]

Well, it is not expressly for sensationalism. While the magazine might be doing and article on it for that purpose, child brides do exist in quite a number of places, particularly in the Middle East and Indian subcontinent.

 

This article is about the death of a child bride in Yemen.

 

http://articles.cnn.com/2010-04-09/world/yemen.child.bride.death_1_yemeni-marriage-child-brides?_s=PM:WORLD

:(

[beccad777]

Truly terrible. Makes me so sad! :sad:

[Mejane]

It's not sensationalism, and it's why I support the Fistula Foundation. Here's a link: http://www.fistulafoundation.org/

 

Have you seen the film A Walk to Beautiful? It's on Netflix instant. Warning: it can break a heart.

 

I totally agree with the pp who said until a woman's worth is not linked to her virginity/childbearing alone, women (and girls) will continue to be treated thusly.

Edited May 24, 2011 by Mejane

[Sevilla]

Here is some reading on this issue:

 

1. I am Najood - Age 10 and Divorced (this book will make you cry but it is also so inspiring - Yemen has a lot of child marriage and this case made world headlines)

2. Half The Sky (oneof the best books I read last year)

3. The Girl Effect

4. International Justice Mission

 

This problem is not only aout female virginity, but also about female education and ending the cycle of poverty - the longer girls can stay in school, the later they marry which helps prevent many of these issues. A girl who completes school through age 16, marries at 17 and has her first baby at 18 has a much higher chance of a healthier life than a 12 year old married off and birthing her first child at 13 who had little to no education.

 

http://evipnet.bvsalud.org/lildbi/docsonline/0/3/030-Policy_brief_2007-childmarriagepolicy.pdf

http://www.ekantipur.com/2011/02/17/national/school-students-foil-child-marriage/329759.html

http://taraqee.wordpress.com/2011/05/06/child-marriage-in-bangladesh-empowering-young-girls-to-make-informed-choices/

http://www.ifuw.org/fuwa/docs/Early-marriage.pdf

Edited May 24, 2011 by Sevilla

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

 

To turn this back to the original subject of the thread, many of the practices we find repugnant are based on a premise that women are inferior to men. A huge proportion of those societies which practice things such as child marriage (really, child rape) and female genital mutilation are Islamic, a fact which I do not find coincidental. Though these practices owe their beginnings to obscure cultural roots pre-dating Islam and Christianity, the reason that they are still being practiced today is due in large part, to the sustained belief that women are born to be owned and used by men. Islam does promote a view of women, in my opinion, that relegates them to second-class status.

 

Here in the West, Christian societies in the past have also had its times when 11-14 year old girls would be married off by their fathers to other full grown men. Do you think it was any less hideous an existence for those girls? The only difference between our societal past and the present situation of these poor child brides is that their societies have not undergone their Enlightenment.

 

We've moved pass that stage, but we still promulgate some of the same ideals that supported those practices then and now, in other societies. And those ideals, based upon not just Christian, but Islamic, and Hindi concepts (it seemed few religions could pass up the opportunity to degrade women) could be summed up as: Women are given over to the authority of men, because they are too weak, or too emotional, or too easily deceived to make their own choices, and be their own authority.

 

Abolish that premise, and replace it with a simple: Men and women are equally valuable to the species emotionally, intellectually, physically, and psychologically, and therefore should be equally empowered to determine their own fate.

 

Do that, and the entire underpinnings of sexist practice from child marriage to over-controlling husbands in the West are undone.

 

I would add one more idea to abolish that premish: Men and women are equally valuable to the species spiritually.

 

Unfortunately, many religions see women as lesser spiritual beings which I vehemently disagree with as simply wrong.

[Impish]

Just b/c something is popular does not make it valid.

 

I am so frustrated when I hear of submission being so narrowly viewed and understood. Yes, wives are called to submit, but so are husbands.

 

I'm really tired of it only being viewed from the perspective that its about male domination. Its not. That's not how it was written, thats not how its meant to be. Just b/c ppl twist things doesn't make it valid in the slightest.

 

When a married cpl submit to each other, how is that NOT equal?

 

Nobody who knows me would ever, EVER accuse me of being a doormat. In fact, they'd likely choke to death at the very thought. I do, however, believe in maritial submission by both of us. It is this mutual submission that has strengthened our marriage and allowed us to stand together in the face of adversity and trial.

 

My husband would be the last man on the planet to suggest I'm lesser than he. He praises my strengths to anyone and everyone that listens. He couldn't handle a doormat, it would make him nuts.

 

So, pls consider that just b/c some abuse, misinterpret, slant, skew information does not make it valid, not for everyone, not by a long shot.

 

Doesn't make it 'valid' at all. It makes it a twisted sliver of truth...which becomes a lie.

[Aelwydd]

I would add one more idea to abolish that premish: Men and women are equally valuable to the species spiritually.

 

Unfortunately, many religions see women as lesser spiritual beings which I vehemently disagree with as simply wrong.

 

Would it be irreverent of me to say, "Amen?" :)

 

Anyway, yes, I agree.

[Aelwydd]

Just b/c something is popular does not make it valid.

 

I am so frustrated when I hear of submission being so narrowly viewed and understood. Yes, wives are called to submit, but so are husbands.

 

I'm really tired of it only being viewed from the perspective that its about male domination. Its not. That's not how it was written, thats not how its meant to be. Just b/c ppl twist things doesn't make it valid in the slightest.

 

When a married cpl submit to each other, how is that NOT equal?

 

Nobody who knows me would ever, EVER accuse me of being a doormat. In fact, they'd likely choke to death at the very thought. I do, however, believe in maritial submission by both of us. It is this mutual submission that has strengthened our marriage and allowed us to stand together in the face of adversity and trial.

 

My husband would be the last man on the planet to suggest I'm lesser than he. He praises my strengths to anyone and everyone that listens. He couldn't handle a doormat, it would make him nuts.

 

So, pls consider that just b/c some abuse, misinterpret, slant, skew information does not make it valid, not for everyone, not by a long shot.

 

Doesn't make it 'valid' at all. It makes it a twisted sliver of truth...which becomes a lie.

 

But are men and women being called by the scriptures to submit equally to each other? I submit to you (pun intended) that they are not.

 

The fact that the scriptures call for a husband to be considerate and loving of his wife, and to even be willing to sacrifice his life for her, does not negate the fact, that he is still named her head. Her authority, even as Christ is the authority of the Church.

 

If that analogy is taken to its logical conclusion, then his authority over her is viewed as being as complete as Christ's is over the Church. And since Paul equated all women with Eve, as being likewise so susceptible to deception that all of us require a man to guide us, it is not just his authority that is regarded as superior. It is also his wisdom, his intellect, his judgment.

 

So, if man is as to wife, as Christ is as to the Church, then his authority and superiority over her are unassailable, as God's is over us, from a Biblical standpoint. Therefore, even when a man fails to uphold the charge to treat his wife well, his authority does not depend on his compliance with that. His authority is not in danger of being revoked.

 

Again, nowhere in the NT it states that if a woman is mistreated by her husband, that she is justified or entitled to defying his authority over her, or to divorce him. If he does not honor her, she has no recourse, Biblically, speaking. She can take it to her church pastor, or a counselor, but they will focus on reforming the husband, instead of reforming the power balance in the relationship.

 

On an ethical level, this is the same exact position of the girls and women in third world society. Many of their cultures promote good treatment of women as well (Islam has its positive verses on how men should treat their wives, and how wives have certain rights to divorce). However, when individual men choose to act according to their base instincts, there is no spiritual authority affirming the rights of these girls and women to defy the men in their lives. Oh sure, it's tolerated from time to time; but it's not often encouraged, and it's even more rarely something positively regarded. They do not want the model revised from its male-top, female-bottom ideal.

 

Finally, I understand that my position is upsetting to you, because you certainly don't like to think of yourself as being in an inferior position, and you have a good marriage with someone who I am sure is very kind. AS YOU SHOULD FEEL! I do not believe for a second that your husband is bullying you around, based on your response to me.

 

However, the fact that your husband is considerate of your feelings, and takes them into consideration, is due to basic human decency, and respect and love for you, as a person.

 

It is not due to scriptural mandate--even though they command him to treat you well, they do not make that requirement a condition of his continuing authority over you, understand? The only compunction he has to be the great guy he is, is his own conscience. If he was a different person, they would not strip him of his authority. The authority is conferred as an accident of birth (the fact he is XY), and not according to his character. Paul wrote in Romans 11:29: God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable. This is significant, because it establishes once again, the indelible nature of the gifts and authority that are assigned to various believers.

 

This is not a new or unusual concept, by the way. The OT and NT are entirely consistent on this point, as demonstrated by the fact that even when King Saul went mad and was a complete tyrant, NO ONE WAS ENTITLED TO REMOVE HIM FROM HIS CAPACITY as king over Israel -- again, another allusion to Christ and the Church. Which again, carries over to the husband and wife relationship.

 

That is why I maintain that traditional, literal Christianity ultimately does not uphold the equality of the sexes, anymore than other societies and religions.

 

And until women are regarded as the equals of men IN EVERY REGARD, especially decision-making power, we will continue to see symptoms of this inequality taking the form of everything from female genital mutilation in Africa, to the home schooled Christian girl in Georgia who is discouraged from going to college, so she can just marry and have babies.

 

 

P.S. I also have an awesome spouse. And in 10 years of marriage, we have never yet come upon a problem that we didn't solve together. Some decisions he has had more input, because he happened to know more about the situation or subject. Other situations, I had the final word, because I was more qualified to make that call. We work as a team, we solve our problems as a team, and we make decisions as a team.

Edited May 24, 2011 by Aelwydd

[FaithManor]

Well, I'm supposed to be off working on 4-H stuff, but I do want to weigh in again.

 

Sevilla is right, educating a girl and keeping her in school in these cultures does a huge service to her in increasing the odds that she will lead a healthier life. However, given that the men make the decisions about whether or not their daughter, sister, aunt, mother, etc. should be educated and there is no legal channel available for a female to demand an education, then it actually can't be solved by educating the females as very, very few will ever be allowed to attend school for any length of time. The entire culture and it's hundreds and possibly thousands of years of belief has to be turned upside down and the first real re-education has to happen amongst those in power - the men. By virtue of what they've been taught, they aren't going to be eager to change - much of the belief of the superiority of males begins at a very young age in the home. Absolute power corrupts absolutely, so we've been taught, and they have absolute power. This is not easily surrendered.

 

Many non-government sanctioned relief groups have attempted to start schools for girls in these nations. Many a relief worker, teacher, medical worker has been murdered for providing nothing more than humanitarian aid. In the area our doctor friend has his free medical clinic, one Korean nurse, two English doctors, two international red cross workers, and three European teachers at a girls' school (I am not certain if they were all from the same country or not), have been murdered in the last three years. He is home because of an attempted bombing of his clinic. The forces that be are not embracing change or even the slightest attempt at altering the status quo!

 

The rub comes in that we western cultures have to impose our interpretation of what is good, what is right, what is acceptable on another nation. Essentially, we attempt to change their culture, their religion, their economic structure, everything. That's an almost impossible task unless or at least until the majority of the population within that nation/culture chooses to be different and some of the ones that make this choice need to be amongst the powerful, influential elite.

 

In many cases, given that the spiritual life of the people is directly tied to the government and the government controls all aspects of the culture, it would require, in many instances, the overthrow of the government and the hand picking of a new government by outside forces to ensure that an evil despot and his henchmen with the same corrupt views of "right and wrong" do not seize power. In most of the nations that practice these hideous things, the interference of secular powers from outside their borders is not considered a blessing. It's considered an act of out and out hostility, immorality, and murderous aggression. Plus, the US, in particular though other nations have participated, has been completely corrupt when overthrowing governments and have placed, for political ends, a different evil despot who will not enact any meaningful change at all, but who will just possibly, for a while, protect American interests. But, it is HIGHLY unlikely that any real improvements will occur without outside force. I'd like to think that humanitarian efforts and international diplomacy alone can do the job. I haven't really seen that in my lifetime.

 

We've seen the rioting in Egypt, Syria, Yemen, etc. There are pockets of people who are seriously ready for change. But without help, most of those demanding change - certainly not the strong, wealthy, elite who have profitted from oppression - have no resources for bringing about change. They are easily killed, marginalized, and terrorized into submission. The question then becomes, do we western cultures have a right to impose our will on another when the safety of our own people, sovereignty, etc. is not at stake? Many would say no. We've taken Sadaam Hussein out of power - a horrifically evil man - but many would say that was not our right; he was no direct threat to the western nations and what he did to the Kurds, etc. was not our look out. Certainly the Iraqi people were not well enough armed or funded to have done this themselves.

 

Then we have to turn the question backward. Would we western cultures view the intervention of other nations in our own affairs as it pertains to something that is readily acceptable here, but is abhorrant somewhere else?

 

I agree with absolutely everyone that this is a craven, immoral, abusive, perverted practice. But, in saying so, I'm imposing my sense of morality and absolutism concerning right and wrong, on someone else. If the law of their land allows it, when is it proper to take a stand, what form should that stand take, and to what ends is it acceptable to go to see western will imposed on another culture?

 

The crime itself, seems like a black and white issue. The solution for reduction of or elimination of acceptance of that crime is grey.

 

So, there is my philosophical treatise on the problem. I have spiritual beliefs on the subject. But these are not worth mentioning because the problem has to be solved at a government level and today is just a very bad day to bring up spiritual belief on the board. Then there are my personal feelings which go something like this....round up the perverts; hang them from the nearest trees!!!! There you have it. I have a temper about things like this and tend not to worry too much about the rights of the criminal. Good thing I'm not in law enforcement.

 

Faith

[Sputterduck]

I got my magazine yesterday and was horrified at this article.

 

It is heartbreaking. A bit of me wonders if this is for real or sensationalism. (really really hoping it is sensationalism.)

 

http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2011/06/child-brides/gorney-text

 

Why would it be sensationalism?

 

The native group I work with generally marries girls at 14. And, if you live in America, this is not happening far from you.

 

I've never seen one married to an older man, though. Husbands are 16 or so. And I've never seen it before puberty.

 

It's hard for me to swallow here, but at the same time I don't think 18 is a magic number. I think it's another cultural construct. I think a random age limit doesn't help at all. While I certainly have some negative feelings about such young marriages, I do understand that in human history those were very normal ages.

 

Children mature later in modern society and this is not a modern society. Marriage does not get in the way of education. They have never been to school. They have had adult responsibilities for years at this age. The marriages only happen at the request of the teens. Traditionally, the boy works for two years for the girl's father before he can marry his daughter. If a boy can work that hard for that long in hard physical labor for his wife, he is more of a man than most grooms I know. The couple getting married already work full time (which is far more than American full time). They act and think like adults. Given all that, I don't get in the way. I am not here to tell them what to do, or to change their culture. I offer food and education and they will take it, or not.

 

Of course, marrying a tiny girl to a middle aged man is... wrong. Wrong in every way. I am thankful that the 5 year old in the article is married to a 10 year old, who probably can't do anything to her yet. I am thankful that she is going to live with her grandparents until puberty. She is married in name and not in action. They seem to take it as a protection against her getting raped. I can see the logic. Of course it would be nice if she understood what was happening. Her 10 year old groom probably doesn't understand what is happening.

Edited May 24, 2011 by Sputterduck

[Nan in Mass]

Thank you for taking the time to say this.

-Nan

[Mommy22alyns]

That article just made me so sick. It hits close to home because my girls aren't far off the ages of some girls mentioned in the article. :crying:

[saraha]

I am surprised that mothers who have been through this and know how horrible it was,(regardless of their cultural training, rape is horrible to an indivdual) don't do more to stop it, and in some cases are encouraging it. I am also surprised that abortion rates, childhood mortality rates for girls, and suicides are not more rampant, knowing what the mothers know. Please don't think that I am condoning any kind of drastic behavior, but seriously, if it were going to happen to my daughter, the thoughts would at least cross my mind.

[elizabeth]

I don't see it being sensationalism. Horrible truth, but not sensationalism.

 

[B]Child brides have been happening for forever. As long as a woman's worth is tied up in her virginity, it will continue to happen. [/B]

 

Yes indeed. It is tragic and morally reprehensible. Here is my little spin off from Impish's point. I thank my ancestors daily for coming here out of Lebanon to save us from the life we would have had as women in that culture. I find it equally disheartening to see virginity of women as something for public ceremony in the USA and I mean those grotesque purity dances, rings etc . I find the whole fetishization of virginity to be unhealthy. JMHO.

[Blueridge]

I tried clicking the link to read the article, and my anti-virus detected malware, so it won't open it. :001_huh:

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

I am surprised that mothers who have been through this and know how horrible it was,(regardless of their cultural training, rape is horrible to an indivdual) don't do more to stop it, and in some cases are encouraging it. I am also surprised that abortion rates, childhood mortality rates for girls, and suicides are not more rampant, knowing what the mothers know. Please don't think that I am condoning any kind of drastic behavior, but seriously, if it were going to happen to my daughter, the thoughts would at least cross my mind.

 

IMHO they are often powerless to do anything about and risk their lives if they were to do so. Have you heard of honor killings?:( I also think that often little boys are taken out of the influence of their mothers at an early age and indoctrinated into misogynist thinking:( IMO men who cross the line and voice outrage at the treatment of women in these societies are also at risk:(

 

Just my suspicions on the matter...

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

I tried clicking the link to read the article, and my anti-virus detected malware, so it won't open it. :001_huh:

 

me too:(

[fairfarmhand]

I tried clicking the link to read the article, and my anti-virus detected malware, so it won't open it. :001_huh:

 

yeah that happened to me too.

 

Guessing they are having a problem with their site. Bet it will be fixed soon.

[Jean in Newcastle]

I tried clicking the link to read the article, and my anti-virus detected malware, so it won't open it. :001_huh:

 

Me too. If you did open it, I would suggest that you run a good virus/malware scan on your computer.

[Rosie_0801]

I am surprised that mothers who have been through this and know how horrible it was,(regardless of their cultural training, rape is horrible to an indivdual) don't do more to stop it, and in some cases are encouraging it.

 

What do you suppose would happen to them if they tried? At the end of that, what good would they be to their daughter?

 

Rosie

[unsinkable]

I am surprised that mothers who have been through this and know how horrible it was,(regardless of their cultural training, rape is horrible to an indivdual) don't do more to stop it, and in some cases are encouraging it. I am also surprised that abortion rates, childhood mortality rates for girls, and suicides are not more rampant, knowing what the mothers know. Please don't think that I am condoning any kind of drastic behavior, but seriously, if it were going to happen to my daughter, the thoughts would at least cross my mind.

 

I can't speak to the other things you wrote but if I was reading correctly, the author started researching why so many women (in Yemen?) were setting themselves on fire. That research led her to the child brides.:crying:

[6packofun]

In relation to THIS topic, keeping to the *original* post, are there any mainly Christian nations or Christian people groups (aside from the mentioned fundamentalist Mormons, which is STILL different from the degree of control and abuse being discussed from the Nat. Geo. article) where this same thing is happening?

 

Because those are the first groups that I'd like to target for prayer and change. Or we could leave Christianity out of it.

[Parrothead]

In relation to THIS topic, keeping to the *original* post, are there any mainly Christian nations or Christian people groups (aside from the mentioned fundamentalist Mormons, which is STILL different from the degree of control and abuse being discussed from the Nat. Geo. article) where this same thing is happening?

 

Because those are the first groups that I'd like to target for prayer and change. Or we could leave Christianity out of it.

Sure it happens. It happens in the US fairly often.

 

Child brides in the US

 

CLASP publication about teen marriage

 

HelptheChildBrides.com

 

Often times these children are being married under the guise of Christianity.

[mcconnellboys]

It is for real, and it is not just in India or the Middle East.... Even some religious sects here have participated in this questionable practice. While there are long-standing mores that set forth all the "reasons" for making child brides, at the heart of this practice is sanctioned pedophilia....

[Aelwydd]

The Egyptian Copts (Christian) and certain African Christian societies also practice it, as well as the brutal FGM.

 

I brought Christianity into this because it contains a great deal of sexism, and sexism is at the heart of what is happening to this girls and women. As I stated before, we can hardly stick our noses into these societies, when there are many groups right here in our society that practice and promote inequality between the sexes. All we're talking is difference of degree.

[OrganicAnn]

England has had many cases where young girls raised in England were taken on trips to their home country (usually in the mideast/india etc) by their parents and then forced into marriages. I think it was happening enough that they set up a special law/task force to help them.

[Amirah]

To turn this back to the original subject of the thread, many of the practices we find repugnant are based on a premise that women are inferior to men. A huge proportion of those societies which practice things such as child marriage (really, child rape) and female genital mutilation are Islamic, a fact which I do not find coincidental. Though these practices owe their beginnings to obscure cultural roots pre-dating Islam and Christianity, the reason that they are still being practiced today is due in large part, to the sustained belief that women are born to be owned and used by men. Islam does promote a view of women, in my opinion, that relegates them to second-class status.

 

Here in the West, Christian societies in the past have also had its times when 11-14 year old girls would be married off by their fathers to other full grown men. Do you think it was any less hideous an existence for those girls? The only difference between our societal past and the present situation of these poor child brides is that their societies have not undergone their Enlightenment.

 

We've moved pass that stage, but we still promulgate some of the same ideals that supported those practices then and now, in other societies. And those ideals, based upon not just Christian, but Islamic, and Hindi concepts (it seemed few religions could pass up the opportunity to degrade women) could be summed up as: Women are given over to the authority of men, because they are too weak, or too emotional, or too easily deceived to make their own choices, and be their own authority.

 

Abolish that premise, and replace it with a simple: Men and women are equally valuable to the species emotionally, intellectually, physically, and psychologically, and therefore should be equally empowered to determine their own fate.

 

Do that, and the entire underpinnings of sexist practice from child marriage to over-controlling husbands in the West are undone.

 

 

i just wanted to say while you have every right to your opinion, i am a muslim woman married to a muslim man and i am in NO Way 2nd class and never have been because true Islam doesn't make women second class its people with twisted mentalities that do. some of the most important people in the history of islam are women and alot of important knowledge came from and was taught to other men by women.

 

i don't agree with a child getting married and when i say this i mean child by the definition in Islam which is someone who hasn't hit puberty. i am against forcing someone to get married because this is a cultural issue as well as genital mutilation and honor killings.

 

 

i feel so bad for this girls and something needs to be done about it. forcing someone to do something they don't want to do is never ok ever.

 

side note: i know some may get tired of me jumping in and standing up for Islam. i have to do it i don't think ppl have to agree but i have to at least say the truth. i can't sit back and let people perpetuate false stereotypes or misguiding of some people as the teachings of the my religion when its not

Edited May 25, 2011 by Amirah
i can't fix the quote sorry

[stripe]

I personally have a problem with people being repulsed by youngish females getting married but fine with 13 year olds having unmarried sex. Is it that they shouldn't be tied down to commitments (just the fun of a boyfriend), the idea that such women will immediately start having lots of kids and not be educated, the idea that "those men" don't really love their wives because "their culture" doesn't value women, or what? Those are, to me, separate issues, some of which may be inaccurate.

 

Incidentally, not ALL males who marry young females mistreat them. I am not a particular advocate for young marriage, but I think it's worth pointing out. There was a very touching moment in this interview on the Diane Rehm show on Teen Mothers in the Developing World from 2004 where Dr. Lubana Ahmed, from Bangladesh, discusses how her father treated her mother, who was married at a very young age. He ensured she finished high school. She discusses the importance of women in society, including crediting her paternal grandmother for instilling in her father this commitment to education.

[amey311]

some of the most important people in the history of islam are women and alot of important knowledge came from and was taught to other men by women.

 

Several years ago, the author of "Standing Alone in Mecca" was on NPR talking about her hajj. It was a completely different side to Islam than had been talked about at the time, so I got the book from the library and read it. I really enjoyed it

 

I just went and read some of the reviews of the book on Amazon and most of the negative reviews say that she's not accurately representing the religion. Have you read the book? If so, I'd enjoy hearing your opinion. Of particular interest to me were her comments on the Quran - that there aren't verses there to support certain positions (like women having to be hidden in the back areas of mosques lest they distract men).

[Rosie_0801]

Several years ago, the author of "Standing Alone in Mecca" was on NPR talking about her hajj. It was a completely different side to Islam than had been talked about at the time, so I got the book from the library and read it. I really enjoyed it

 

I just went and read some of the reviews of the book on Amazon and most of the negative reviews say that she's not accurately representing the religion. Have you read the book? If so, I'd enjoy hearing your opinion. Of particular interest to me were her comments on the Quran - that there aren't verses there to support certain positions (like women having to be hidden in the back areas of mosques lest they distract men).

 

Next time you're mooching about online, try googling for marriage sites for Muslim women. I don't mean dating sites, but sites by Muslim women for Muslim women. You might be surprised on how familiar it all sounds :)

 

Rosie

[amey311]

Next time you're mooching about online, try googling for marriage sites for Muslim women. I don't mean dating sites, but sites by Muslim women for Muslim women. You might be surprised on how familiar it all sounds :)

 

Rosie

 

I don't want to misinterpret your tone, so could you throw me a small bone please? Or even PM me with a link? My google-fu is failing me, and i'm eyeball deep in dating sites.

 

Also, I'm not sure what you mean by familiar. To what? I'm usually not this slow, I promise.

[amey311]

I am also surprised that abortion rates, childhood mortality rates for girls, and suicides are not more rampant, knowing what the mothers know. Please don't think that I am condoning any kind of drastic behavior, but seriously, if it were going to happen to my daughter, the thoughts would at least cross my mind.

 

I would guess that abortion is not an option in many of these situations. Some are dealing with poverty, some are dealing with geographic isolation, and other profoundly limiting situations. I'm sure for others it's a matter of "this was really awful, but hopefully my husband will find a good match for my daughter." Some people are trying to make slightly thoughtful matches (like the 5 year old to a 10 year old - at least they're somewhat close in age), and when you consider the alternative point that was made (if they're not marked as married, they could be raped), well, marriage might seem like the lesser of two evils. What is an uneducated mother with 10 children going to do?

 

I've read the stories about women trying to get out of the FLDS and being told that they're welcome to go, but their children are staying with their father. Even if you decide to completely buck the system HERE IN THE US (not rural India), can you imagine trying to coordinate fleeing any distance with 10 children in tow and possibly no vehicle, and no money or access to money? Trying to coordinate that while also feeding and caring for those 10 children (and possibly more belonging to other people) in the time before you actually leave? It boggles the mind.

[Sputterduck]

I personally have a problem with people being repulsed by youngish females getting married but fine with 13 year olds having unmarried sex. Is it that they shouldn't be tied down to commitments (just the fun of a boyfriend), the idea that such women will immediately start having lots of kids and not be educated, the idea that "those men" don't really love their wives because "their culture" doesn't value women, or what? Those are, to me, separate issues, some of which may be inaccurate.

 

Incidentally, not ALL males who marry young females mistreat them. I am not a particular advocate for young marriage, but I think it's worth pointing out. There was a very touching moment in this interview on the Diane Rehm show on Teen Mothers in the Developing World from 2004 where Dr. Lubana Ahmed, from Bangladesh, discusses how her father treated her mother, who was married at a very young age. He ensured she finished high school. She discusses the importance of women in society, including crediting her paternal grandmother for instilling in her father this commitment to education.

 

I totally agree.