Heather in Neverland Posted March 10, 2011 Share Posted March 10, 2011 ...the plot thickens. So thanks to all of you ladies and more research of my own... I had decided to keep the twins together in the same kindergarten class next year rather than put them in two different classes. Well, now I have another issue that I need some wisdom for with these same twins. They are boy/girl twins. And preemies so small for their age and a little behind in motor skills (not significantly but noticeable). They also tend to get sick a lot (especially the boy). Not major illnesses but lots of colds, flu, etc. They have made a lot of progress BUT ... The girl has made more progress than the boy and will be ready to go to kindy next year. The boy? Not so much. The preschool teacher is recommending holding him back in preschool another year. :svengo: The layers here are many: -they are twins. How do I promote one and not the other? If I do that, they will be a grade apart for their entire school career. I think that will be emotionally damaging to them especially when I was hesitant to even put them in separate kindy classes. -they are Asian. Their parents will FREAK OUT as it is "shameful" if your child is not a genius in the culture here. -the boy is the one that needs to be held back, not the girl, and unfortunately, that is a big issue in this culture. If I move the girl up but hold the boy back it is shameful to a degree we cannot fathom (especially since he is a "first born"...in fact...only boy). -the parents are high-rollers and give tons of money to the school. I know it should not be an issue and it is not a defining issue...but it does hover over my head every time I walk by our new playground with their name on it. :glare: So what to do? Hold them both back even though the girl is more than ready to move ahead (and face the firestorm I will get from the parents)? Or move them both forward knowing the boy is not anywhere near ready and will be left in the dust by his classmates and just hope he catches up before it damages him too much emotionally? I feel like no matter what...this is a lose-lose situation. Any wisdom for me? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JFSinIL Posted March 10, 2011 Share Posted March 10, 2011 (edited) Is there anything the parents can do with the boy over the summer to get him ready to succeed in K? Any programs or materials they could work on with him> Otherwise - I think you have to do what is best for each kid, and not worry too much about how the parents will react as ultimately you are not responsible for how they feel, but you are responsible as an educator to do what is best for each kid (which does not make it any easier, I know.) an aside - when my now 19-yr-old fraternal twins were in K, they were kept together as I also had an infant at home and I couldn't run back and forth to b=pick-up one boy and them bring back the other within an hour (our two K classes were am/pm) - then at the end of the year one boy was ready for 1st grade...not the other who had to repeat K. It was not easy at all. Edited March 10, 2011 by JFSinIL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LidiyaDawn Posted March 10, 2011 Share Posted March 10, 2011 Goodness, it's kindergarten! Isn't it mostly all play anyway? Water tables, sandboxes, gluesticks, music corner, storytime, naps on little carpets? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mom2denj Posted March 10, 2011 Share Posted March 10, 2011 Is there anything the parents can do with the boy over the summer to get him ready to succeed in K? :iagree:Have you talked to the parents to see where they stand on this? If given the option, maybe they will work over the summer with the boy or be willing to hold the girl back. You could point out, that they will be that much further ahead if they are kept back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tarreymere Posted March 10, 2011 Share Posted March 10, 2011 Can you hold back the both of them? Given the culture, it may be easier for the parents to deal with if you present it as something that you think would be a good idea because they are both a bit small and were premature? Anyway, at this age I doubt if the girl would be adversely affected by another year in preschool but the boy would pay a heavier price to be moved ahead to K. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sahm99 Posted March 10, 2011 Share Posted March 10, 2011 You know the parents best and can best judge whether holding him back will create a difficult family situation (which I believe should be taken seriously, just as much as his skills). But maybe the parents will surprise you, after being told that devolpment differences are VERY common between boys and girls, that you want to give him the best shot at being an "excellent" student, etc., etc. Also, the best thing might be to just let the parents decide, after having layed down the facts for them. You could still let them know what YOU would do if he was YOUR son... At least, with them on board, you could assume that the decision is supported by the home environment...which, again, I believe is the most essential Good luck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asta Posted March 10, 2011 Share Posted March 10, 2011 Hold the boy back (making sure he has extensive tutoring on top of it), and send the girl traveling with her nanny for a year. By the time the girl gets back, they both move forward together. Whee! I'd love to have money. a Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renee in NC Posted March 10, 2011 Share Posted March 10, 2011 Goodness, it's kindergarten! Isn't it mostly all play anyway? Water tables, sandboxes, gluesticks, music corner, storytime, naps on little carpets? No, that's preschool for 3yo children.:tongue_smilie: K expectations include reading and writing now. Even in K4 the standards include knowing letters and letter sounds!, along with addition and suctraction. I would let them go into K together, but make sure the parents know that they (and the boy) are going to have to work doubly hard. This would flow into the culture, wouldn't it? If they have money and are very involved, he'll have the support he needs. You can't have them in different grades and the shame might be insurmountable for the boy in the future. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lawana Posted March 10, 2011 Share Posted March 10, 2011 I would let them go into K together, but make sure the parents know that they (and the boy) are going to have to work doubly hard. This would flow into the culture, wouldn't it? If they have money and are very involved, he'll have the support he needs. You can't have them in different grades and the shame might be insurmountable for the boy in the future. :iagree: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heather in Neverland Posted March 10, 2011 Author Share Posted March 10, 2011 Goodness, it's kindergarten! Isn't it mostly all play anyway? Water tables, sandboxes, gluesticks, music corner, storytime, naps on little carpets? Not here. What you describe is our preschool for 3 year olds class. Coming out of preschool 4 they are expected to know their alphabet, have letter recognition for both upper and lower case and know the sounds the letters make. That is the bare minimum they must have in order to be accepted into kindy. In kindy they start right off with reading from day 1. That is the norm here in Penang as nearly all kids start preschool at age 3 and most of these are "academic" preschools. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renee in NC Posted March 10, 2011 Share Posted March 10, 2011 Not here. What you describe is our preschool for 3 year olds class. Coming out of preschool 4 they are expected to know their alphabet, have letter recognition for both upper and lower case and know the sounds the letters make. That is the bare minimum they must have in order to be accepted into kindy. In kindy they start right off with reading from day 1. That is the norm here in Penang as nearly all kids start preschool at age 3 and most of these are "academic" preschools. How far off is he from that standard? Can you get an agreement with the parents about what *they* will need to do for his success in K? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heather in Neverland Posted March 10, 2011 Author Share Posted March 10, 2011 You can't have them in different grades and the shame might be insurmountable for the boy in the future. That's definitely heavy on my heart right now and it has been a huge learning experience for me... that is, learning how VERY serious that situation is in this culture whereas in America we are more like, "What's the big deal?" I can't change an entire culture and I don't have the right to. I can work within it or leave. This is how academics go here. It is more important than anything else. So I have to figure out how to do what is best for these two children WHILE showing respect for the culture I am in whether I agree with it or not. sigh.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heather in Neverland Posted March 10, 2011 Author Share Posted March 10, 2011 How far off is he from that standard? Can you get an agreement with the parents about what *they* will need to do for his success in K? I have not spoken to the parents yet because as I have to have a plan firmly in place before I do (hear that squeaky sound? It's the can of worms I will be opening! :tongue_smilie:). I am leaning towards promoting them both but telling the parents that they must work with their son to get him ready for kindy (which means they will put him in tutoring for who knows how many hours per week). The "shame" thing is such a new dynamic for me to deal with. It just goes against everything I believe in but it is very real for them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heather in Neverland Posted March 10, 2011 Author Share Posted March 10, 2011 Hold the boy back (making sure he has extensive tutoring on top of it), and send the girl traveling with her nanny for a year. By the time the girl gets back, they both move forward together. Whee! I'd love to have money. a That's helpful. :glare: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mommyfaithe Posted March 10, 2011 Share Posted March 10, 2011 Can you hold back the both of them? Given the culture, it may be easier for the parents to deal with if you present it as something that you think would be a good idea because they are both a bit small and were premature? Anyway, at this age I doubt if the girl would be adversely affected by another year in preschool but the boy would pay a heavier price to be moved ahead to K. :iagree: with this...I would keep them both back if possible for these same reasons. Faithe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Okra Posted March 10, 2011 Share Posted March 10, 2011 First of all, size and motor skills don't matter that much. It is okay if you are smaller than the "typical" kid. While he might be behind on motor skills, this is an area that is very easy to catch up in. Children should never be held back for these issues in my opinion. For twins, I think it would be devastating to hold one back right now, ESPECIALLY from pre-K to Kindergarten. I would be especially clear with the parents about your school's expectations for the beginning of kindergarten. The parents need to know what your school expects, not what they did in kindergarten, or what other schools do in kindergarten. Personally, I don't like the fact that more and more academic skills are pushed down onto the youngest. While some children may be able to read at the end of kindergarten I do not think that this should be an expectation, as I think that this is not a developmentally appropriate expectation for 5 year olds. Now, I know that this is not what your post is about. But, really I can't imagine another reason why the pre-k teacher would think about holding him back. The parents should be able to work with him over the summer months, if they know what the school wants, they can focus on whatever the pre-k teacher thinks is important, i.e. literacy skills, or math development. This is kindergarten, remember? Really, if the main reason is the motor skills and the smallness, I would be especially horrified, as 1)some people are small... and 2)The motor skills will most likely come in time, and if they don't he can catch up with OT or physical therapy later. Motor skills development tend to level off, making this an easy one to catch up on. 3) I would be horrified if these were the main reasons the teacher was thinking about separating twins by a grade! The reasons are paramount, but I would think that if motor skills and smallness were the main issues, then it would not be okay to separate these children by a whole grade. Please by careful! You have twins to think about. Consider that if the reasons are academic, he can work on these privately over the summer, This is kindergarten. If the reasons are motor skills, I don't think the reasons are valid that the child should be held back at all. Okra Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AmyinMD Posted March 10, 2011 Share Posted March 10, 2011 I wouldn't separate them. If my boy/girl twins were to go to school I'd be in a difficult situation. My twins were born 2 months early and have a summer birthday so they could really be either 1st grade or Kindergarten this year. My dd is picking up reading quickly and is just more mature than ds. Ds never could have done full day K at age 5. If I'd have sent him they may be recommending he stay back. I couldn't separate him from his twin though I think he'd be devastated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saw Posted March 10, 2011 Share Posted March 10, 2011 Can you recommend tutoring/extra help for the boy on the basis of his having missed more school than his sister because of being ill? Maybe make it sound like advice that all kids who miss more than x days a year get? That might make it more palatable to the parents than hearing that their precious boy is behind. S Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Osmosis Mom Posted March 10, 2011 Share Posted March 10, 2011 I would pass them on and assume the boy would catch up. No way in that culture and even with the parents being financial backers would I hold the boy back. I might suggest remediation over the summer (but call it enrichment). Not a battle worth fighting. That said, perhaps not having them in the same classroom might be more effective in order to avoid competition and for the parents to not note the difference as much... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LidiyaDawn Posted March 10, 2011 Share Posted March 10, 2011 Goodness, it's kindergarten! Isn't it mostly all play anyway? Water tables, sandboxes, gluesticks, music corner, storytime, naps on little carpets? Not here. What you describe is our preschool for 3 year olds class. Coming out of preschool 4 they are expected to know their alphabet, have letter recognition for both upper and lower case and know the sounds the letters make. That is the bare minimum they must have in order to be accepted into kindy. In kindy they start right off with reading from day 1. That is the norm here in Penang as nearly all kids start preschool at age 3 and most of these are "academic" preschools. Wow. :001_huh: My daughter went to kindergarten and it was pretty much the fun place that I described... I can't even imagine the sort of scenario you're describing there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chiguirre Posted March 10, 2011 Share Posted March 10, 2011 Do you think that the boy's issues are things that an extra year of maturity will solve or will he always have them due to medical problems? If an extra year will set him up for a life of success, I'd really try to hold back both twins. If he'll struggle no matter what, I'd promote them both and lay out the expectations clearly for the parents. I'd also start thinking about how to set up a special needs program since I'm afraid you may be heading in that direction. The parents may react badly at first, but give them time and they'll probably come around to doing what's best for their son. It just takes a while to process the grief that your child won't have the life you envisioned for them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heather in Neverland Posted March 10, 2011 Author Share Posted March 10, 2011 Please by careful! You have twins to think about. Consider that if the reasons are academic, he can work on these privately over the summer, This is kindergarten. If the reasons are motor skills, I don't think the reasons are valid that the child should be held back at all. Okra Actually it is both motor skills/size and academics and social skills. He is just far behind his peers in this class (and his sister) in every way. And I know you kepp saying "this is kindergarten" but this is kindergarten here, not like it was when I was in school...it is just different now. And in the whole "shame" issue and I am not sure what is more shameful...holding them both back or pushing them forward and him being the lowest performing student in his class? Who knew there would be so much stress involved in kindergarten decisions? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heather in Neverland Posted March 10, 2011 Author Share Posted March 10, 2011 Do you think that the boy's issues are things that an extra year of maturity will solve or will he always have them due to medical problems? That is a really good question. I'm not entirely sure but I believe it is something he will catch up on eventually. I am going to explore this more.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Okra Posted March 10, 2011 Share Posted March 10, 2011 Here's a completely off-the-wall recommendation. You could tell them about homeschooling. Homeschooling might work well in this situation. Okra Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris in VA Posted March 10, 2011 Share Posted March 10, 2011 So Heather, could you clarify something? Is it shameful for his sister to be ahead, or is it shameful for him to be held back, or both? I'd say hold them both back, but provide enrichment to the girl, so she's not bored to tears, IF it is not shaming to them to be held back. If the shame lies in having a female outperform a male, then it should be ok. If, however, the "holding back" is the shameful thing, I'd advance both of them, but make it very clear to the teacher that she is going to have to step it up for the little boy. And I would be very open with the parents--he needs some extra help because of how he is developing, and you fully support his needs. I guess I'd also just ask them what they want--AFTER you show them evidence of how he's doing. Can you play a little ignorant of the culture, and set things out logically? The ideal, in my mind, is to treat each child individually, and hold the boy back. But that's apparently not going to happen, is it? ;) It's too bad when a culture denies kids what they need. I can't help being a little judgemental about the whole thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EKS Posted March 10, 2011 Share Posted March 10, 2011 I would keep them together and recommend tutoring for the boy. A lot can be done one on one that can't be done even in the most conscientious school. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ester Maria Posted March 10, 2011 Share Posted March 10, 2011 I would be more inclined to the option of promoting them both than to the option of keeping them both behind, if you do not wish to separate them. I would also suggest parents to work with the boy separately to keep him up with the pace of the class. (Personally, I'm against "academic" preschools and even Ks for most children, but hey, that's only me.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grace'smom Posted March 10, 2011 Share Posted March 10, 2011 Is there any way you could express your concerns and allow the parents to make the decision? I'm not sure how that would fly but they would probably be more comfortable with a decision they made on their own. It sounds like your school is prepared to assist in any way no matter what the outcome might be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unsinkable Posted March 10, 2011 Share Posted March 10, 2011 Hold the boy back (making sure he has extensive tutoring on top of it), and send the girl traveling with her nanny for a year. By the time the girl gets back, they both move forward together. Whee! I'd love to have money. a Wow, I think you might be on to something. Hold the boy back and tutor/homeschool the girl at home for year. Then move them forward together. Great idea, asta! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stacy in NJ Posted March 10, 2011 Share Posted March 10, 2011 Because they were premature you can explain it to them as a development issue. The boys isn't ready academically, the girl physically. You mentioned she had some physical issues, and, while that in itself might not be a reason to hold her back, certainly it wouldn't hurt to let her build up some extra muscle tone before K. I think it would make for a more peaceful household for the family long term, and I don't think the little girl will be damaged by an extra year in pre-k (other than an really acclerated kid - who would be?). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sebastian (a lady) Posted March 10, 2011 Share Posted March 10, 2011 Well, you do have to work within the limitations of the offerings of your school, the expectations of the family and the societal issues. I think that I would give the parents a couple of options, laying out the pros and cons of each. Tell them that you value them as members of the school family and value their insight and opinion of what their children are capable of. Give them an outline of where their kids are compared to the goals for K4 and for K5 kindergarten. Point out the areas that each child needs to improve on. Point out that being premature sometimes means that the child is closer in development to those of the age he would have been if born at full term, rather than his actual birth cohort (what I've heard, not from personal experience). Point out that there are areas where you are concerned that he might struggle in Kindergarten, either with not being up to the demands of the class or with feeling that he is less capable than other students in the class. Then lay out the options that they have, including specific suggestions for extra work that will help him develop the skills he needs. And including holding one or both of them back a year. Give them the option of deciding, but within the framework of what the school is willing to implement. In other words, if the school isn't willing to let him progress to kindergarten, then don't let that be presented as an option. You might even introduce the concept of "redshirting" where parents hold back kids who are on the developmental readiness edge so that they are primed when they do enter school. Would this give them a positive perspective to give their friends and neighbors when they are asked about his next grade at school? Also, some private schools I know have a two tier program for kindergarten, where there is a transitional or advanced reader level either at K4 or K5. Is that something you could offer (ie, staying at K4, but moving to a level that is a step above the normal K4)? I know this is a heavy burden. You can't rework a culture. You can present possibilities and possible consequences to the parents so they have the same information that you and the teachers do about his ability compared to the expectations of the next grade. I think that in such a situation, I would feel not only shame that my kids weren't progressing as expected, but shame that I'd somehow failed them as a mother. That somehow I'd done something wrong in the pregnancy to cause the prematurity or had failed to prepare them enough during their years at home. Maybe one question is how you can give them space to still be good parents while chosing to wait a year until their son is ready. (Are their local proverbs about not picking green fruit or similar ideas that you might utilize?) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mom22ns Posted March 10, 2011 Share Posted March 10, 2011 I would keep them together. I would explain the situation to the parents and tell them to get him help so that he will be ready (or as ready as he can be). With luck, he will catch up during K. If not, you'll revisit the issue next year. K here is the same as you describe. Kids are expected to know letter and numbers to 100 coming in. K is for learning to read, calendar, combining numbers, etc. Our schools do have centers and play-to-learn activities, but it is still very academic. If they aren't reading independently at the end of K they don't go on to first grade. I think K being a time of fun and play is a thing of the past no matter where you are. That was our generation, not our kids. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tabrizia Posted March 10, 2011 Share Posted March 10, 2011 I would keep them together whichever way you decide. My Mom held back my brother and sister, who are twins, because my brother was not ready for Kindergarten. She decided it was better to give my sister the extra year as well then to have them in different grades. As to promoting them to Kindergarten or not, that I am not sure on, but I would keep them in the same grade, either way you do it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spy Car Posted March 10, 2011 Share Posted March 10, 2011 Ultimately the parents will need to decide what to do. You will be like a physician who lays out the "options." Will your professional judgement to some degree color the presentation of those options? Sure! That is what you are there for. And if the children's parents ask you what you would do, tell them. If they don't ask you may need to tell them anyway. But at the end of the day it is their decision. Based on what I've heard in the thread I would hold them both back. Kindergartens here sound like they have much in common with the Kindergarten at your school. They are no longer playing in the sand-box and doing finger-painting. K is "academic" these days and why put a child who is not ready developmentally into that sort of situation The term used here is "the gift of another year." For many children it really is a gift. Best wishes, Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merry Posted March 10, 2011 Share Posted March 10, 2011 "Give them an outline of where their kids are compared to the goals for K4 and for K5 kindergarten. Point out the areas that each child needs to improve on. Point out that being premature sometimes means that the child is closer in development to those of the age he would have been if born at full term, rather than his actual birth cohort (what I've heard, not from personal experience). Point out that there are areas where you are concerned that he might struggle in Kindergarten, either with not being up to the demands of the class or with feeling that he is less capable than other students in the class." by Sebastian (a lady) Saving face in Asian culture is extremely important, as you know. The above quote should help them do that. Tell them that if the children were carried to full term, they might not even have started in preschool in the first place? What was the original due date? Would that fact work to keep them in preschool another year without loss of face? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wapiti Posted March 10, 2011 Share Posted March 10, 2011 (edited) First of all, size and motor skills don't matter that much. It is okay if you are smaller than the "typical" kid. While he might be behind on motor skills, this is an area that is very easy to catch up in. Children should never be held back for these issues in my opinion. For twins, I think it would be devastating to hold one back right now, ESPECIALLY from pre-K to Kindergarten. I would be especially clear with the parents about your school's expectations for the beginning of kindergarten. The parents need to know what your school expects, not what they did in kindergarten, or what other schools do in kindergarten. Personally, I don't like the fact that more and more academic skills are pushed down onto the youngest. While some children may be able to read at the end of kindergarten I do not think that this should be an expectation, as I think that this is not a developmentally appropriate expectation for 5 year olds. Now, I know that this is not what your post is about. But, really I can't imagine another reason why the pre-k teacher would think about holding him back. The parents should be able to work with him over the summer months, if they know what the school wants, they can focus on whatever the pre-k teacher thinks is important, i.e. literacy skills, or math development. This is kindergarten, remember? Really, if the main reason is the motor skills and the smallness, I would be especially horrified, as 1)some people are small... and 2)The motor skills will most likely come in time, and if they don't he can catch up with OT or physical therapy later. Motor skills development tend to level off, making this an easy one to catch up on. 3) I would be horrified if these were the main reasons the teacher was thinking about separating twins by a grade! The reasons are paramount, but I would think that if motor skills and smallness were the main issues, then it would not be okay to separate these children by a whole grade. Please by careful! You have twins to think about. Consider that if the reasons are academic, he can work on these privately over the summer, This is kindergarten. If the reasons are motor skills, I don't think the reasons are valid that the child should be held back at all. Okra :iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree: did I mention, I agree? I feel very strongly about this. One of my twins was small, premie, speech delay, *extremely* shy, didn't know the sounds of all the letters, and had significant fine motor issues, all at the start of K and certainly in February of his second year of preschool. If he tried really hard, at the start of K, he could print his three-letter first name in uppercase, and that was all. Same boy went from behind in reading at the start of K to a year above grade level by the end of K. (Same boy was calculating exponents in his head in first grade, but then I guess he's "mathy" and he had wonderful exposure via Montessori.) Same boy was writing in cursive by the end of K, cursive that's nicer than my own (which is terrible LOL) (two years later, he has reverted back to printing, but that's another story; in any case it's still neater than mine). In K he had OT for the fine motor issues, and in second grade he's still on an IEP for speech with no end in sight. Perhaps his wonderful progress would not have been possible had he been in a more traditional classroom environment instead of his Montessori school. But to have held him back would have been a crime. He is extremely aware of his academic status compared to others, and having a twin brother who doesn't have the same weaknesses doesn't make that any easier. He is extremely bright but his weaknesses made it very difficult to show that, especially when he was younger. In such situations, I prefer to give a kid the benefit of the doubt and allow him to rise to the occasion, all the while supporting weaknesses and developing strengths. Also, it is important to keep in mind that K doesn't start for another 6 months, a huge amount of time for a child that age, in terms of development. Development is less even and linear in some children than in others. I would advise the parents on what is expected at the start of K so that they could continue work over the summer, but I would also give the kid the chance to see if he can pass K with his sister. In spite of everything, in no circumstances would I hold back the sister for the sake of the brother. Edited March 10, 2011 by wapiti Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murphy101 Posted March 10, 2011 Share Posted March 10, 2011 What kind of parents are these? Are they the kind that if you suggest he get some extra help to boost his ability, they would brow beat him and make him feel stupid? Or would they gladly help him over breaks and weekends so that he can be promoted with his sister? There was a time when I wouldn't have thought size or dexterity mattered either. Then I had a second born that was YEARS smaller than all the other kids his age/grade. It was really hard on him. I will never forget going to an after school PTA school fair/party. He had 26 kids in his class and no one would play with him. They wanted to play on the teeter-totter. But he was so slight, he literally could not move it when they sat down. They wanted to play ball, but he was so much small the ball would knock him down when kicked towards him. He wasn't delicate. He was one tough cookie. He would get knocked down and bounce right back up. He was also quiet. He was nice to everyone and never complained, so the other kids just kind of forgot he was there. Intellectually, he was actually ahead of nearly all of them. It was still very hard on him though. I'm glad we ended up pulling to home school. I think several years of feeling like that would have negatively affected him in many ways. So my gut says they are twins, not conjoined, let it stand on their own. But the cultural thing... Yeah... I'd have to feel out the parents to make a decision on how to best help him, but I really don't see how holding him back will be good long term. :( Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scrappyhappymama Posted March 10, 2011 Share Posted March 10, 2011 I went to high school with triplets, girl-girl-boy triplets. In elementary school, the boy was held back a year, so his sisters were a year ahead. Even by high school it was apparent that he "lived down" to the lowered expectations of him. He was always and forever having to explain that yes, he was a triplet, and yes, his sisters were a year ahead and yes, he was held back in elementary. Can you see how consistently degrading this was for him? And this is here in the states, without the cultural shame factor. So no, I would not think that allowing the twins to school at different levels would be workable at all. I'd probably lean toward holding them both back, but trying to present it as giving them both an extra year of development, especially considering their preemie beginnings. It's probably not *necessary* for the little girl- in fact we have a dear girl in our homeschool group who was a micro-preemie and is still the size of a toddler at age 6, but she is smart as a whip. But, an extra year certainly wouldn't be harmful to her either, especially if the K4 teacher is willing to give her some extra attention or make her a class helper to help boost her confidence and keep her engaged. Again, not necessarily ideal for her, but certainly much less harm than the ongoing damage of shaming the brother by keeping him behind alone, or taxing him unfairly by pushing him ahead while not ready. Surely this could be presented to the parents in a way that makes it seem less shameful in their eyes? And once a few years have passed, no one will know the difference anyway, since both children will be at the same level. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coffeegal Posted March 10, 2011 Share Posted March 10, 2011 Can you give the parents the 2 options? Because the children are sick so often they've missed a lot of school and aren't quite ready for kindergarten. You could also add in the fact that they're premies and would developmentally be starting preschool if they were full-term. Option 1: Start the children in kindergarten next year with the parents' understanding the children will need extra time and tutoring to keep up. You could also give them a list of what is expected in Kindergarten so the parents would be able to begin the extra work immediately. Option 2: Let the children repeat preschool since that is actually where they would be developmentally, and the children would likely excell if placed with their full-term agemates. :001_smile: Personally I would not mention that the daughter is ahead of her brother and ready to promote. From the little I understand of the culture, it would make for a tense situation in the family. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElizabethB Posted March 10, 2011 Share Posted March 10, 2011 Get them a copy of "The Talking Letter Factory" DVD! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sonshine Posted March 10, 2011 Share Posted March 10, 2011 I have boy/girl twins. They have zigzagged in their development. What one was ahead of at one point the other was ahead in later. They boy was slower to learn to read but in upper elementary is a much better reader. Unless the boy simply could not follow the class next year at all, I would promote them together. If the culture wasn't such as issue, I may suggest keeping them back together. Under no circumstances would I promote her ahead of him. Of course, get them both lots of extra help. If the girl gets extra tutoring too, it won't be a reflection on the boy. She can work with a different tutor at the same time on different things. It sounds like the family can afford the tutoring. Maybe they could even have someone on standby to tutor him at home on the days he is too sick to come to school but has the energy to do an hour or two of schoolwork at home. Make what they have work for them, which is apparently plenty of money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sebastian (a lady) Posted March 10, 2011 Share Posted March 10, 2011 How would this family respond to the directions of an authority figure? If you provided them with a set of supplemental instructions, would it be seen as prescriptive and something to definitely make efforts on? I'm thinking that perhaps you could give them a couple books like The Read Aloud Handbook or Slow and Steady Get Me Ready or Ready Writer. Provide them with some blank reading logs that could be reviewed by a member of the staff, who could give more read aloud suggestions. Give them a starting point in Slow and Steady that reflects where the kids are at (maybe even give them a packet of copied activity sheets, so that the age references can be removed from the copies they are using). Is the elementary library open in the months when school might be on break? (I'm asking because access to books in English might be an issue.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ester Maria Posted March 10, 2011 Share Posted March 10, 2011 I have to say that, I don't know why - obviously I'm missing something not having twins or much experiences with twins - but I'm really disturbed at all the ideas of holding back the girl too for the sake of the boy, especially in the light of the OP where Heather clearly stated that the girl is "more than ready" (!) for K. My reasoning, which I stated already, was either to promote them both, either to separate them, but I would never leave the girl behind and "maim" her by excluding her from the group where she socially and academically belongs for the sake of "not offending" anyone, even if that somebody is her twin. I would much rather separate them, giving them each the space they need, if it is obvious that the boy could not catch up with little help. It just rubs me as a deeply wrong thing to do to hold the girl back, cultural differences and twin psychology aside. I am trying to view this in light of those two factors, but it still rubs me as such a wrong thing to do, to prevent somebody from growing and learning where she is ready. Just had to say it, now you may ignore this and continue the discussion. :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starr Posted March 10, 2011 Share Posted March 10, 2011 Now that I am a mother of teens I don't see harm in holding anyone back at 4 or 5 especially since K is more than I had in the beginning of first grade. It just lets them have a longer childhood. :D They can always read more and do math puzzles for fun at home. Your decision I would think is to evaluate if the young man has the ability to catch up in the next year with extra help. The easiest way to be sure of all things would be to hold them both back a year. Good luck with your decision. They are lucky to have someone so caring to think these things through. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T'smom Posted March 10, 2011 Share Posted March 10, 2011 I would not, under any circumstances, promote one without the other. I went to school with twins where one was in my class and one was a year behind. It was NOT a good situation. Dh is a triplet and I can't imagine if one of them had been promoted/held back without the others. And neither of these situations deals with Asian culture issues. If they were my kids, I would hold them back. An extra year in preschool is not going to hurt anyone. And it might help them both excel later. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ester Maria Posted March 10, 2011 Share Posted March 10, 2011 (edited) I went to school with twins where one was in my class and one was a year behind. It was NOT a good situation. But why? I really am trying' date=' genuinely, to understand what I am missing here. Asian culture aside, of course. What about a case (and I know one such!) where a boy and his sister that's one year younger start school the same year, because he was held back one year? Does it also "offend" the child, create tensions or provokes low self-esteem? But, [i']how else[/i] can you do it and be "fair" - you cannot keep the girl one year behind too for no reason just so she may start the school exactly a year after her brother? :confused: Or what about other cases in family where one kid skips a year and "catches up" with an older sibling? I've been struggling with the younger one working just as fine as the older one in most areas from the beginning, it drove the older one NUTS at times, but that's a good thing about homeschooling that I can separate them - but in a school context, would I not harm my younger child by NOT allowing her to be accelerated to her sister's grade, if the school were to suggest it and if she was socially mature to do so (not only intellectually)? What's so special about the situation with twins? Those are things which are happening all the time in families - one kid fails a year (should the boy be immune to failing a year in the future, just so they don't get separated?), one kid gets accelerated, kids of different ages "meet" in the same grade, etc. Maybe I'm too individualistic, but you know, to each his path, and sometimes even twins' paths separate at young ages... right? Or I am still missing something here (other than the Asian culture thing)? Edited March 10, 2011 by Ester Maria Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barb_ Posted March 10, 2011 Share Posted March 10, 2011 I am not sure what is more shameful...holding them both back or pushing them forward and him being the lowest performing student in his class? But the above is not a given. Children at 4-5 don't develop in straight lines. Sometimes when they look as if they are stagnating, they are actually gearing up to surge ahead. I think I would put them both ahead, but speak to the parents privately and voice your struggle. They will be so grateful, they will work with their son over the summer so you will have no reason to regret your decision. Barb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barb_ Posted March 10, 2011 Share Posted March 10, 2011 Or I am still missing something here (other than the Asian culture thing)? Likely you are missing the children's culture aspect of it. Kids are quick to jump on any perceived weakness and a child that has been held back carries a big scarlett "S" for stupid glued to his forehead. Having a twin as a reminder of one's failure would be torture. It could very well ruin any hope for a sibling relationship. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LidiyaDawn Posted March 10, 2011 Share Posted March 10, 2011 K here is the same as you describe. Kids are expected to know letter and numbers to 100 coming in. K is for learning to read, calendar, combining numbers, etc. Our schools do have centers and play-to-learn activities, but it is still very academic. If they aren't reading independently at the end of K they don't go on to first grade. I think K being a time of fun and play is a thing of the past no matter where you are. That was our generation, not our kids. Not everywhere ~ our dd14 went to kindergarten and it was just as I described in an earlier post... very play-based, with water tubs, sand play, painting, glue, storytime, music center, naps on little mats, etc. Okay - forgetting about the 'twin' aspect, how does this school usually handle kids with delays/disabilities/etc? Aren't they normally moved forward with their peers and given the extra assistance that they need? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ester Maria Posted March 10, 2011 Share Posted March 10, 2011 Likely you are missing the children's culture aspect of it. Kids are quick to jump on any perceived weakness and a child that has been held back carries a big scarlett "S" for stupid glued to his forehead. Having a twin as a reminder of one's failure would be torture. It could very well ruin any hope for a sibling relationship. But I still have a problem with it. Even more so after reading this... Is the girl's purpose to "serve" her brother's self-esteem? Or are we treating her as an individual with some of her own rights - to own her grade, to own her education? I do realize it's a very tricky situation, but I feel that not enough people are standing up for her - only for the boy's self-esteem. How will she feel on the long run for having been held back, isolated from her age group and a 'standard path' she would have taken, "not to offend"? So sad, to be prevented from learning and growing with your peers. :( I know of cases where siblings of different ages ended up in the same grade due to acceleration / failure / having been held back. While I do agree those are not always "smooth" situations, I usually think it would have been worse to try to create an "artificially smooth" situation, if you get what I mean... Like the case with a one year apart girl and boy I talked about earlier, where parents vacillated so much whether to send them to school the same year or hold the girl back even if she didn't have to be held. In the end they opted to send them together, I don't think it hurt anyone on the long run. In any case, Heather is right - this is like to be a lose-lose situation whatever of the three options she chooses. I don't know why, but I feel so strongly about the young girl :(, in spite of trying to keep the boy's perspective in mind too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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