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Why do Dave Ramsey followers


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think it's okay to rip people off? It's one of my biggest complaints about his program. It seems that everyone that reads his books begins to think it's okay to make ridiculously insulting offers when buying things from another person.

 

I read Ramsey's books and in one of them he proudly states how some one was desperate to sell their Jaguar and Ramsey offered them even less than they were asking because he knew they were desperate.

Does no one else see anything moralistically wrong with that?

 

Taking advantage of another person's situation seems evil, for any reason - especially if it's for one's own personal financial gain.

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I don't think this is ripping people off. He's not being dishonest. The person selling always has the option to say no. That's what negotiating is all about. If you are going to sell something yourself you have to be prepared to haggle on the price and know how to do it. You have to know what the lowest you are willing to go is before you put it up for sale and not go below that.

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I don't remember that from the book. But people have a choice. They can certainly say no. If someone is desperate enough to sell at a lower price, they aren't being taken advantage of. They need what little money they can get. I don't follow D.R. but I'm not going to pay a higher price for someone simply because I'm trying to help them out. That's just an entirely different situation.

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When a person is desperate, they are unreasonable. It's taking advantage of their situation. I'm guessing you've never been hungry or had a house full of hungry kids - Have you ever been so desperate that you'd sell your most prized possession for whatever any one offers to feed those kids?

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I don't think this is ripping people off. He's not being dishonest. The person selling always has the option to say no. That's what negotiating is all about. If you are going to sell something yourself you have to be prepared to haggle on the price and know how to do it. You have to know what the lowest you are willing to go is before you put it up for sale and not go below that.

 

I agree. DH and I are both Dave Ramsey people and I don't ever remember him advocating ripping people off or being dishonest. In fact he puts a lot of emphasis on being honest and contributing to charity. That being said I will negotiate when I buy things, particularly off craigslist. It's called haggling. I suggest a price someone else suggests a counter offer. Where I live that's pretty standard and I've never met anyone insulted by it. When I sell things on craigslist if someone offers me way less than what I feel the item I'm selling is worth then I just pass on the sale.

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I don't think this is ripping people off. He's not being dishonest. The person selling always has the option to say no. That's what negotiating is all about. If you are going to sell something yourself you have to be prepared to haggle on the price and know how to do it. You have to know what the lowest you are willing to go is before you put it up for sale and not go below that.

 

:iagree: Anyone showing or stating desperation is a stupid move whether buying or selling. Never give personal information. It has nothing to do with the sale and can only lower your negotiating leverage.

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I'm talking about intentional low-balling because you know they're desperate.

There is a difference.

 

I'm sure that there are people that do that. The people that I know that are Dave Ramsey people are very generous. I find it really insulting that you would put all Dave Ramsey followers into that catagory. :glare: I think that's a very broad and highly inaccurate generalization.

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When a person is desperate, they are unreasonable. It's taking advantage of their situation. I'm guessing you've never been hungry or had a house full of hungry kids - Have you ever been so desperate that you'd sell your most prized possession for whatever any one offers to feed those kids?

 

When you have to use an extreme to make your point, you lose credibility in your argument. Again, they should have a bottom line and refuse to sell for lower than that. That's smart business. I'm sorry but I just completely disagree with you. Yes, I've been hungry and yes I've sold some possessions that I now regret. I sold them to a pawn shop but it was my choice to take a low amount because I wanted some money and didn't want the hassle of trying to sell something and wait around for someone to come along. That made it my problem, not someone else's problem.

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When a person is desperate, they are unreasonable. It's taking advantage of their situation. I'm guessing you've never been hungry or had a house full of hungry kids - Have you ever been so desperate that you'd sell your most prized possession for whatever any one offers to feed those kids?

 

:iagree:

 

Haggling and bargaining in general I don't mind - Craigslist, yard sales, etc. Taking advantage of someone who is in a desperate situation by offering them a really low offer knowing they "must" accept it is something that will need to be explained to God (IMO) and makes me really have less respect for them.

 

That said, I don't know enough about DR to know if he suggests that or not.

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When a person is desperate, they are unreasonable. It's taking advantage of their situation. I'm guessing you've never been hungry or had a house full of hungry kids - Have you ever been so desperate that you'd sell your most prized possession for whatever any one offers to feed those kids?

 

Yes, I do know what you are talking about, and it's something I would never knowingly do. :-( But I don't think most people KNOW when you are desperate to feed your kids and so take advantage and try to get a bargain, and who can blame them? I'm sorry, though, if this is something you are experiencing in your life. :grouphug:

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When you have to use an extreme to make your point, you lose credibility in your argument. Again, they should have a bottom line and refuse to sell for lower than that. That's smart business. I'm sorry but I just completely disagree with you. Yes, I've been hungry and yes I've sold some possessions that I now regret. I sold them to a pawn shop but it was my choice to take a low amount because I wanted some money and didn't want the hassle of trying to sell something and wait around for someone to come along. That made it my problem, not someone else's problem.

 

I'm not using an extreme...I'm putting into perspective. He knew that the guy selling the jaguar was desperate, and then he offered an even ridiculously lower price for it because he knew the seller was that desperate. He proudly proclaims this in his book and tells people it's okay to take advantage...

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think it's okay to rip people off? It's one of my biggest complaints about his program. It seems that everyone that reads his books begins to think it's okay to make ridiculously insulting offers when buying things from another person.

 

I read Ramsey's books and in one of them he proudly states how some one was desperate to sell their Jaguar and Ramsey offered them even less than they were asking because he knew they were desperate.

Does no one else see anything moralistically wrong with that?

 

Taking advantage of another person's situation seems evil, for any reason - especially if it's for one's own personal financial gain.

 

Hmm! That's a pretty broad generalization. I'm a Dave Ramsey follower and I think I'm pretty honest in my dealings.

 

No, there is absolutely nothing wrong with low-balling a person. This is the way business works. The people selling the car were under no obligation to take Ramsey's offer. This is the way the free market operates. Thank goodness.

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If someone is desperate enough to sell at a lower price, they aren't being taken advantage of.

 

I disagree. There is a big difference between accepting a fair market offer on something you're selling, or accepting a low ball offer out of desperation. When someone offers you an extremely low ball offer that is significantly below the fair market value of whatever it is you're selling, they are absolutely trying to take advantage. Can you refuse the offer? Sure. But should they even make that offer in the first place? That's the moral question.

 

I'm speaking from having experienced this over and over and over again these past three years. Yes, there's not really any way of knowing if a seller is in a desperate situation. But right now, given the current economy - the benefit of the doubt goes to selling out of need rather than choice. It is absolutely despairing to have people make such low ball offers. It feels like stealing.

Edited by Michelle O. in MO
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Any item is only worth what people are willing to pay for it. If a low-ball offer is unacceptable, you move on to someone willing to pay more. If nobody is willing to pay more, it isn't worth the asking price. In fact, it's worth less than the low-ball offer ($0.00) if you can't offload it!

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I'm talking about intentional low-balling because you know they're desperate.

There is a difference.

 

That's not what I read in his books. I did read (and listen to on CD) bargaining strategies.

 

I am selling nearly everything I own in order to move. I qualify as desparate. If people on Craigslist want to lowball offer me, I'll consider it. I won't feel taken advantage of. It's how it works.

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I'm trying to think how someone owning a jaguar would be desparate in the same way that a mother with very little is desparate to feed her chilren. I don't believe there is much of a real comparison between the two. We, never read Ramsey, have bought our cars for a song from desparate people. They were desperate to offload what they believed were money pits. They were desparte to get what they could while they could. There's a world of difference between THAT desparation and the despairing of a family in poverty.

 

On the surface, taking advantage of someone's desparation seems wrong. When you look a little, though, you can see that desparation means different things at different times. Being desparate to stop paying insurance premiums on an expensive car you no longer drive is one thing. The desparation you are using for an example is another.

 

If he was buying furniture and clothing from a widow struggling to feed her children, keep a roof over their heads and the heat on, that's low and unChristian. He's not. He's buying from people that WANT to get rid of their stuff. There's a world of difference there.

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I disagree. There is a big difference between accepting a fair market offer on something you're selling, or accepting a low ball offer out of desperation. When someone offers you an extremely low ball offer that is significantly below the fair market value of whatever it is you're selling, they are absolutely trying to take advantage of your desperate situation. Can you refuse the offer? Sure. But should they even make that offer in the first place? That's the moral question.

 

No, it is not a moral question. The value of things are not intrinsic. The value of an item is simply based on how much someone is willing to pay for it. There is no moral issue at all. Why do you think the housing market got into such a mess? People pay $450,000 for a house one month and the next month they can't sell it for 1/2 that much. Why is that? Did the house intrinsically lose it's value? No! It's just that no one is willing to pay $450,000 for it anymore. THe market dropped. Would it be immoral for me to offer someone $300,000 for a house they payed $450,000 for and are upside down in their loan? Even if they're bankrupt? What if all the houses on their block were selling for $275,000 now? It would be stupid of me to offer them more. It's the way business works. If I buy a used car from someone, I don't care about their motives for selling. I am not buying their car to help them out. I won't pay a higher price just because they are in financial straights and need the money. I'd buy the car because I want the car and want to pay the least amount of money for it. If they don't want to sell it to me, that's their choice.

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I think there is a fine line between being frugal and being cheap.

 

I've seen some bloggers and people irl cross that line. Some of them were DR followers, but not all.

:confused: I'm not getting this at all. Is low-balling cheap? And what's the difference between frugal and cheap?

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I'm talking about intentional low-balling because you know they're desperate.

There is a difference.

 

Desperate or not, I low-ball offers because I assume most are asking a bit more than they expect, so I offer a bit less than I expect and usually find an offer accepted somewhere in the middle....sometimes the lower offer is accepted, so that's what I pay....sometimes the price is firm and if I don't think it's worth the money, I don't buy it. Basic negotiation.

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Thinking on it, weren't the Egyptians pretty desperate to get rid of the Israelites, and didn't they give them tons of things when they left?

 

I would hesitate to use the historical stories in the Old Testament to justify my business dealings today... :glare:

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No, it is not a moral question. The value of things are not intrinsic. The value of an item is simply based on how much someone is willing to pay for it. There is no moral issue at all. Why do you think the housing market got into such a mess? People pay $450,000 for a house one month and the next month they can't sell it for 1/2 that much. Why is that? Did the house intrinsically lose it's value? No! It's just that no one is willing to pay $450,000 for it anymore. THe market dropped. Would it be immoral for me to offer someone $300,000 for a house they payed $450,000 for and are upside down in their loan? Even if they're bankrupt? What if all the houses on their block were selling for $275,000 now? It would be stupid of me to offer them more. It's the way business works. If I buy a used car from someone, I don't care about their motives for selling. I am not buying their car to help them out. I won't pay a higher price just because they are in financial straights and need the money. I'd buy the car because I want the car and want to pay the least amount of money for it. If they don't want to sell it to me, that's their choice.

 

:iagree::iagree::iagree:

If the item is truly worth more, the seller should hang onto it esp. if she desperately needs the money. She can say no. She doesn't have to take the first offer. What I usually see is that someone has gotten upside down on an item (as in the housing example or automobiles) and the item is no longer worth what the person paid for it and is reluctant to believe she made a poor financial decision in the first place.

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When a person is desperate, they are unreasonable. It's taking advantage of their situation. I'm guessing you've never been hungry or had a house full of hungry kids - Have you ever been so desperate that you'd sell your most prized possession for whatever any one offers to feed those kids?

 

My family has been in desperate times. It's cliché but desperate times do call for desperate measures. We have sold large items we wanted to keep for way less money than they were worth, so we could keep the lights on and food on the table. Dave Ramsey didn't invent bargaining and I seriously doubt the times we've had to do this the buyers were followers of Dave. My dh has been in sales and self-employed for many years, lots of negotiating experience. He's never felt taken advantage of when he sold items, like his prized go-cart that needed some work. It was well worth twice the 250.00 price he got even though it needed some motor work. But the 250.00 kept us going for another couple of weeks. It's a tradeoff, he could have always said no.

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When you have to use an extreme to make your point, you lose credibility in your argument. Again, they should have a bottom line and refuse to sell for lower than that. That's smart business. I'm sorry but I just completely disagree with you. Yes, I've been hungry and yes I've sold some possessions that I now regret. I sold them to a pawn shop but it was my choice to take a low amount because I wanted some money and didn't want the hassle of trying to sell something and wait around for someone to come along. That made it my problem, not someone else's problem.

 

:iagree:

 

 

I'm not using an extreme...I'm putting into perspective. He knew that the guy selling the jaguar was desperate, and then he offered an even ridiculously lower price for it because he knew the seller was that desperate. He proudly proclaims this in his book and tells people it's

okay to take advantage...

 

Oh geez. Guess it would have been more ethical to not buy from the guy at all.:001_huh:

 

If the offer is too low and the seller thinks they can get more, then they should say no and hope the next offer is more in line with their opinion. Quick sales are always less and it's not unethical or taking advantage. The buyer is looking for an awesome bargain, the seller is looking for quick money. Win-win.

 

If you don't like the price, then don't sell it and hope the next, if any, offer is better.

 

And yes, we've been on that other end too. And were too glad for the funds to gripe about imaginary prices we think we could have otherwise gotten but wasn't ever actually offerred.

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I don't think this is ripping people off. He's not being dishonest. The person selling always has the option to say no. That's what negotiating is all about. If you are going to sell something yourself you have to be prepared to haggle on the price and know how to do it. You have to know what the lowest you are willing to go is before you put it up for sale and not go below that.

 

:iagree: A friend of mine was interested in a house that was more than they could afford. I suggested that they shoot a lower offer. The realtor told them there was no way it would fly. But the owner accepted theirs--even though there were several considerably higher offers--simply because she knew them and wanted them to have her house.

 

I know some people are offended when they receive a low offer, but it's just part of the bargaining process, IMO.

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Any item is only worth what people are willing to pay for it. If a low-ball offer is unacceptable, you move on to someone willing to pay more. If nobody is willing to pay more, it isn't worth the asking price. In fact, it's worth less than the low-ball offer ($0.00) if you can't offload it!

 

:iagree:

That's what I was going to chime in and say, but you got it covered. I've never understood why a "low-ball" offer is considered rude. You don't know if you don't try and the other party can say no.

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Except that in this case it's a Christian book (or class or whatever it is) and in that case, it was a business dealing that God set up.

 

The Israelites weren't Christians. There is plenty in the old testament that shouldn't be used to justify our actions today. Especially in books that can be considered history (as opposed to say, Proverbs, which is advise that is still probably good).

 

Either way, the free market is supposed to be about being self interested and making the best decisions for your self or your company. Serving your own interests in whatever way you can (ideally within the bounds of good ethics). Christianity is about being selfless, and giving freely to those in need. It's not that I think Christians shouldn't have good business sense, but I'm a little confused about basing your financial decisions on Christianity. As a good business person, yes, getting the best possible price is ethical, regardless of the situation of the seller, so long as the seller has the option not to sell. As a Christian, I'm not sure how you justify a lack of concern for the situation of the seller.

 

Edit: And I know Dave Ramsey advocates giving to charity, but it doesn't really mesh in my mind to say that it's ok to take advantage of a person's situation so long as you are giving to other money to orphans. That doesn't make sense, in the context of Christianity. In the context of being a good businessperson, then getting the best price has nothing to do with any charitable giving at all.

Edited by Mimm
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It may be a blessing to some people to be able to accept a lowball offer if they are desperate. I am not morally obligated to pay more $$ for anything than the seller is willing to accept.

 

DR encourages tithing, giving to charity, and other forms of generosity. What's more, he teaches people how to get to the point where they are able to give their money freely. That is a HUGE moral good in my mind. I don't agree with DR on everything, but he has helped a lot of people get out of those "desperate" situations and into positions where they have the ability to help the desperate.

 

And yeah, I know it's a hypothetical situation (and a pretty ridiculous one at that), but I would have a hard time feeling sympathy for a jag owner that now is having to accept a lowball offer because they can't feed their family.

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I think there is a fine line between being frugal and being cheap.

 

I've seen some bloggers and people irl cross that line. Some of them were DR followers, but not all.

 

No, there isn't. It's just a polite way of saying you would spend more than someone else and think you are a better person than them for doing it. Neither really have anything to do with DR. (Of which, I'm not a follower, tho I am aware of his advice.)

 

As a Christian, I'm not sure how you justify a lack of concern for the situation of the seller.

 

It's very simple really. Being Christian does not mean the personal lives of everyone I know is any of my business, literally in the case of actual business transactions.

 

It means that I should make an honest offer that I can actually pay. They can take it or leave it. Being Christian does not mean I have to pay more for my goods or services. Paying more doesn't make the deal more honorable. If I really felt called to give more funds, I'd make the same offer. And just give some extra as a charitable surprise. But my charitable giving is separate from the business deal.

 

I'll go further to say one of my peeves are people who do crappy business/service and act like since they are Christians it should be acceptable and or out of Christian duty they are entitled to payment. Don't even get me started on those who use guilt trips about how their business is their Christian mission to get people to pay more.:glare: I think it gives a bad name to Christians.

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:confused: I'm not getting this at all. Is low-balling cheap? And what's the difference between frugal and cheap?

 

IMHO, personal opinions. The gist I see is that if someone is saving for their poor income family, they are being frugal. If someone with more money is trying to be frugal, they are seen as cheap.

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Taking advantage of another person's situation seems evil, for any reason - especially if it's for one's own personal financial gain.

 

I agree with you, but the world is a selfish, selfish, and self-justifying place. I do think Christians should hold themselves to a higher standard, and pay a fair market price, ideally a price they themselves would like to get.

 

Thrift can easily become greed, and greed can look really smart to many people. It is sad, and I believe it is wrong, but it appears to be generally accepted, all around the world.

 

I really feel sorry for people who have to accept unfair wages or immoral work just to feed their kids (mine workers in Africa, prostitutes in various parts of the world). I think they are oppressed (treated unfairly and unkindly by people who would not accept that treatment themselves, and without any other realistic option). I can't imagine Jesus condoning this.

 

People are so materialistic, everywhere. It never fails to stun me.

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think it's okay to rip people off? It's one of my biggest complaints about his program. It seems that everyone that reads his books begins to think it's okay to make ridiculously insulting offers when buying things from another person.

 

I read Ramsey's books and in one of them he proudly states how some one was desperate to sell their Jaguar and Ramsey offered them even less than they were asking because he knew they were desperate.

Does no one else see anything moralistically wrong with that?

 

Taking advantage of another person's situation seems evil, for any reason - especially if it's for one's own personal financial gain.

Can you please give us the name of the book? I would love to read what exactly DR wrote.

 

I remember reading a lot about working your tush off, budgeting, etc. and don't remember anything written about ripping other people off.

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:confused: I'm not getting this at all. Is low-balling cheap? And what's the difference between frugal and cheap?

 

Maybe the difference lies in how you define "low-balling". Making any lesser offer at all? Or maybe offering $2,000 for a car you know is worth $15,000? The former is expected, the latter may very well be an insulting waste of someone's time.

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I'm not using an extreme...I'm putting into perspective. He knew that the guy selling the jaguar was desperate, and then he offered an even ridiculously lower price for it because he knew the seller was that desperate. He proudly proclaims this in his book and tells people it's okay to take advantage...

 

Do you think you could post the exact quote? I've only read a few things off his website, and his suggestions seem very practical to me.

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I agree with you, but the world is a selfish, selfish, and self-justifying place. I do think Christians should hold themselves to a higher standard, and pay a fair market price, ideally a price they themselves would like to get.

 

Thrift can easily become greed, and greed can look really smart to many people. It is sad, and I believe it is wrong, but it appears to be generally accepted, all around the world.

 

I really feel sorry for people who have to accept unfair wages or immoral work just to feed their kids (mine workers in Africa, prostitutes in various parts of the world). I think they are oppressed (treated unfairly and unkindly by people who would not accept that treatment themselves, and without any other realistic option). I can't imagine Jesus condoning this.

 

People are so materialistic, everywhere. It never fails to stun me.

 

What do mine workers and prostitutes have to do with haggling for goods someone is voluntarily selling? Particularly with someone selling a car they paid a lot of money for and can no longer afford to maintain? Materialism is certainly a problem in modern society, but I don't get the comparison.

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I'll say it outright - I think it's stinkin' cheap if you know someone is in need and you low-ball them even though you can afford their reasonable asking price just so you can get a bargain. Rationalize it however you want - it's chintzy.

 

Reminds me of the time my dad was selling our old hot water heater. The price was low and a young couple came along. After talking to them for awhile my dad realized they were having it hard and he gave them the heater. My parents didn't have a lot, but Dad knew they needed the money more than he did. He did things like that all the time. I saw more "Christian charity" from my dad, the non-believer, than almost any professing Christian I've ever known.

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What do mine workers and prostitutes have to do with haggling for goods someone is voluntarily selling? Particularly with someone selling a car they paid a lot of money for and can no longer afford to maintain? Materialism is certainly a problem in modern society, but I don't get the comparison.

 

That's because there isn't one.

 

Best connection is that prostitutes and mine workers should make more money.

 

In which case, we should all remember to pay more for our coal and hookers.

 

I'm not in the market for either.

 

So I'm not paying them anything.

 

Does that make me a worse Christian?

 

I don't think so... But maybe I'm wrong. Wouldn't be the first time I wasn't Christian enough for someone, but it would be the first time it was because I wasn't giving more consideration to paying for a hooker.:001_huh:

Edited by Martha
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Someone has an item they want to sell. They are having tough financial times. Someone wants to buy their item and has a price in mind they would really consider great. Those are facts. It's a financial transaction. That's all. The emotion someone PLACES in it are THEIR choice. It's not an emotional transaction. It's money. Someone in a bad financial situation (been there) tend to be very emotional because of where they are. If you consider the offer insulting, that's the proverbial "your choice". Take it or wait for something that doesn't strum your emotional strings. Things bother us as much as we allow them.

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I'll say it outright - I think it's stinkin' cheap if you know someone is in need and you low-ball them even though you can afford their reasonable asking price just so you can get a bargain. Rationalize it however you want - it's chintzy.

 

Okay, so what if the potential buyer is in a financial crisis as well? Is he still cheap? Or would it be okay if he pays less than the potential buyer who has more money? :bigear:

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That's because there isn't one.

 

Best connection is that that prostitutes and mine workers should make more money.

 

In which case, we should all remember to pay more for our coal and hookers.

 

I'm not in the market for either.

 

So I'm not paying them anything.

 

Does that make me a worse Christian?

 

I don't think so... But maybe I'm wrong. Wouldn't be the first time I wasn't Christian enough for someone, but it would be the first time it was because I

wasn't giving mire consideration to paying for a hooker.:001_huh:

 

:lol::lol::lol: Martha, you crack me up!!! And I agree with you 100%.

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That's because there isn't one.

 

Best connection is that that prostitutes and mine workers should make more money.

 

In which case, we should all remember to pay more for our coal and hookers.

 

I'm not in the market for either.

 

:lol::lol: Oh my goodness! I hope Nance gets that one for her funniest quotes list!!

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That's because there isn't one.

 

Best connection is that that prostitutes and mine workers should make more money.

 

In which case, we should all remember to pay more for our coal and hookers.

 

I'm not in the market for either.

 

So I'm not paying them anything.

 

Does that make me a worse Christian?

 

I don't think so... But maybe I'm wrong. Wouldn't be the first time I wasn't Christian enough for someone, but it would be the first time it was because I

wasn't giving mire consideration to paying for a hooker.:001_huh:

 

Well that explains it! :D

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That's because there isn't one.

 

Best connection is that that prostitutes and mine workers should make more money.

 

In which case, we should all remember to pay more for our coal and hookers.

 

I'm not in the market for either.

 

So I'm not paying them anything.

 

Does that make me a worse Christian?

 

I don't think so... But maybe I'm wrong. Wouldn't be the first time I wasn't Christian enough for someone, but it would be the first time it was because I

wasn't giving mire consideration to paying for a hooker.:001_huh:

 

:lol::lol::lol:

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I'll say it outright - I think it's stinkin' cheap if you know someone is in need and you low-ball them even though you can afford their reasonable asking price just so you can get a bargain. Rationalize it however you want - it's chintzy.

 

 

I tend to agree with this. It's not about haggling, it's about realizing that someone else is in a tough position and using that to your advantage.

 

I don't think the OP meant that all bargaining or low-balling is bad, she used a specific situation where the buyer knew the seller needed to sell desperately and used that to get a better deal.

 

OP, please correct me if I'm wrong.

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