Why do Dave Ramsey followers

[Murphy101]

Well when we were struggling to put food on the table, selling our very expensive car at a great loss would have put us in a deeper financial hole due to the money owed on it. So it would very much have been a last resort, thankfully it did not come to that, our financial hole that we had to dig out of was bad enough as it is.

 

But no one has said the jag was sold at a loss. Further, at a loss means for less than you paid or it's market value, but you still get the money for it which helps, just not as much as if you got more money for it. If what you mean by at a loss is selling for less than is still owed on the loan, well yes, that would be foolish bc you can't discharge the title until you pay the rest of the loan balance. Which means no sane person is going to buy from you unless you can pay the difference that day at the bank.:confused: Obviously it would make more sense to either keep the vehicle or let the bank repossess it if you can't keep the payments and put food on the table.

 

For that matter, it's purely hypothetical that "desperate" for the jag owner meant he didn't have food on the table. For all any of us know, he was "desperate" to sell it before he filed for divorce because he didn't want his wife to get it.

 

For all any of us know the jag was paid off and DR still got an awesome deal on it from some guy who was moving out of the country and didn't want to to store it or take it with him.

 

There is zero reason to presume anyone, much less a family, went hungry bc DR gave a low ball offer that was accepted.

[*Inna*]

That's because there isn't one.

 

Best connection is that prostitutes and mine workers should make more money.

 

In which case, we should all remember to pay more for our coal and hookers.

 

I'm not in the market for either.

 

So I'm not paying them anything.

 

Does that make me a worse Christian?

 

I don't think so... But maybe I'm wrong. Wouldn't be the first time I wasn't Christian enough for someone, but it would be the first time it was because I wasn't giving more consideration to paying for a hooker.:001_huh:

:lol::lol::lol:

[Tohru]

I flipped through Total Money Makeover, and this was all I found. It may not be the quote the OP was talking about. DR tells about how his weakness is cars, and how he hung on to his Jaguar long after he should have gotten rid of it. Then he says, "Fast-forward 15 years. We had become wealthy again, and I decided to get a different car. I'm always looking for a one-or two-year-old car, I'm always paying cash, and I'm always looking for a deal, not really caring what car it is. I was kind of looking for a Mercedes or a Lexus, but I was really looking for a steal. A friend in the car business called me with a deal - on a Jaguar. So all those years and tears later, when it was no longer the driving force of my approval rating, God allowed a Jaguar back into my life."

 

That's not the quote.

 

The reference I'm talking about is that he specifically pointed out that the guy selling the car was desperate, so DR flashed a wad of cash, offered a lot less than the already low asking price because he knew the guy was desperate. He went on to add that it's okay to take advantage of people's situations - his specific advice was that one should wait for the opportunity to buy a big purchase because there are always desperate people selling and you can take advantage of that for your own gain.

 

It is obvious from the posts in this thread that DR followers think it's okay to take advantage of desperate people.

My original concern was that it seemed morally wrong, but it reiterates some that follow DR don't seem to think so.

 

Anyway, it was in one of the older books...I'll have to get it from the book from the library again because I can't remember if it was in the 1st or 2nd edition of Financial Peace or More than Enough. The morality of it has been bothering me for a long time and now I've seen so many professed DR followers trying to take advantage of other people, especially during the holiday season.

 

And to those about the Jaguar - the point was the guy was desperate, and DR knowingly took advantage of him because of the desperation.

What difference does it make the reason of his desperation or that fact that it was a Jaguar rather than a Honda?

[Tohru]

We use coal every day when we turn on the lights and log on to the computer...in most cities, coal is burned to make electricity.

And there is no reason to be hateful towards 3rd world prostitutes because we live in America and don't have to result to prostitution to feed our kids. sheesh and some people thought it was a funny comment.

[keptwoman]

But no one has said the jag was sold at a loss. Further, at a loss means for less than you paid or it's market value, but you still get the money for it which helps, just not as much as if you got more money for it. If what you mean by at a loss is selling for less than is still owed on the loan, well yes, that would be foolish bc you can't discharge the title until you pay the rest of the loan balance. Which means no sane person is going to buy from you unless you can pay the difference that day at the bank.:confused: Obviously it would make more sense to either keep the vehicle or let the bank repossess it if you can't keep the payments and put food on the table.

 

For that matter, it's purely hypothetical that "desperate" for the jag owner meant he didn't have food on the table. For all any of us know, he was "desperate" to sell it before he filed for divorce because he didn't want his wife to get it.

 

For all any of us know the jag was paid off and DR still got an awesome deal on it from some guy who was moving out of the country and didn't want to to store it or take it with him.

 

There is zero reason to presume anyone, much less a family, went hungry bc DR gave a low ball offer that was accepted.

I agree, completely, it's all conjecture. But I'm presenting a real life reason why a jag owner might wait until the last minute to see a car. But it's just conjecture, because we don't know.

 

My initial post was responding to the person who said they would have little sympathy for someone who needed food for their family. When we don't know a persons circumstances, judging from the outside and choosing to feel sympathetic or not is just wrong. I would feel sympathy for ANYONE who didn't know where their families next meal was coming from, regardless of previous circumstance or the value of the car in their drive. However, that may not have been the situation, who knows, I was just responding to a comment.

[Tohru]

There is zero reason to presume anyone, much less a family, went hungry bc DR gave a low ball offer that was accepted.

 

Just another example of support for DR philosophy that it's okay to take advantage of people's situations.

 

No matter, I still think it's morally wrong to take advantage of another person, sadly it seems that I and a few others are in the minority.

[dcjlkplus3]

Just another example of support for DR philosophy that it's okay to take advantage of people's situations.

 

No matter, I still think it's morally wrong to take advantage of another person, sadly it seems that I and a few others are in the minority.

 

I don't get WHY you feel this way (although I can accept that you do).

As many people in this thread have pointed out, there are many forms of "desperate", I think it is presumptuous to assume that anyone who is looking for a good deal is selfish. There is no reason to assume that my lowball offer isn't all that I can afford. The fact is there ARE always people willing and trying and sometimes even desperate to get rid of something I want and I don't know which boat they are in when I make my offer.

[Plucky]

think it's okay to rip people off? It's one of my biggest complaints about his program. It seems that everyone that reads his books begins to think it's okay to make ridiculously insulting offers when buying things from another person.

 

I read Ramsey's books and in one of them he proudly states how some one was desperate to sell their Jaguar and Ramsey offered them even less than they were asking because he knew they were desperate.

Does no one else see anything moralistically wrong with that?

 

Taking advantage of another person's situation seems evil, for any reason - especially if it's for one's own personal financial gain.

 

Can you link or somehow scan that DR wrote this in his book? This doesn't seem to be authentic.

[LizzyBee]

Just another example of support for DR philosophy that it's okay to take advantage of people's situations.

 

No matter, I still think it's morally wrong to take advantage of another person, sadly it seems that I and a few others are in the minority.

 

I don't think people are saying it's okay to take advantage of people. But many of us don't view negotiating a sales price as taking advantage.

[lionfamily1999]

Just another example of support for DR philosophy that it's okay to take advantage of people's situations.

 

No matter, I still think it's morally wrong to take advantage of another person, sadly it seems that I and a few others are in the minority.

So tell me, do you only buy things from companies that garuntee they pay a living wage? When you shop, do you tip the bag boy, to make sure that you aren't taking advantage of the fact that he was so desperate for work that he's working that dead end job? Do you send extra money for factory workers that build/make/fashion the things you purchase?

 

:001_huh: I mean, the view is always nice from a high horse, but it's amazing how many people you trample from there.

[Murphy101]

I agree, completely, it's all conjecture. But I'm presenting a real life reason why a jag owner might wait until the last minute to see a car. But it's just conjecture, because we don't know.

 

My initial post was responding to the person who said they would have little sympathy for someone who needed food for their family. When we don't know a persons circumstances, judging from the outside and choosing to feel sympathetic or not is just wrong. I would feel sympathy for ANYONE who didn't know where their families next meal was coming from, regardless of previous circumstance or the value of the car in their drive. However, that may not have been the situation, who knows, I was just responding to a comment.

 

On that note we agree. A person who needs food, needs food and that's all there is to that to me.

 

I guess I have a different view from having btdt. To me, we looked at getting the sale, however low, as divine providence. Because the alternative was NO sale. Some people are just like that tho. If we felt we could get more, then we certainly tried for that, but you get what you get when you can get it, kwim? I suppose someone else just sees getting screwed vs no sale. What I find odd is it seems to be the christians who have that view?:confused: Go figure.

 

Hmmm... Which brings up another topic.....

[*Inna*]

 

:001_huh: I mean, the view is always nice from a high horse, but it's amazing how many people you trample from there.

:iagree:

[Tohru]

So tell me, do you only buy things from companies that garuntee they pay a living wage? When you shop, do you tip the bag boy, to make sure that you aren't taking advantage of the fact that he was so desperate for work that he's working that dead end job? Do you send extra money for factory workers that build/make/fashion the things you purchase?

 

:001_huh: I mean, the view is always nice from a high horse, but it's amazing how many people you trample from there.

 

Actually, yes. I refuse to shop at Walmart, buy anything made in China or by Indian slave labor. We are part of a CSA, own a cow share, and haven't bought new clothes in over 20 years...everything is thrift store or handmade. Weird concept that some one can live like that, huh? I know you are a DR follower, he's not a god, yet people act like he is.

 

And to add, I can't believe that you (specifically you) have been on the forum adding to my thread...I've been on here this morning and tonight, you too.

Wow. How was dinner? ;)

Edited December 18, 2010 by jadedone80

[Abigail4476]

Hmmm...

 

I don't view anyone as a god, except, well, God. :D I know of DR, but I haven't read any of his books. That aside, I'd still like to read the exact quote. It would give a better foundation for this discussion if we could determine the context for ourselves, kwim?

 

Generally speaking, I'd say there's a nice middle ground between being frugal and trying to find good deals and not purposely taking advantage of someone in dire straits. This came up recently at our house, because my husband bought something from a person on craigslist, and I asked him why he paid full price for the item (he usually offers lower and haggles). He told me that he didn't have the heart because the people appeared to really need the money. So I get how a person could need to quickly determine whether or not to take advantage of a situation.

 

It's really subjective, and I think we should put our consciences to good use whenever a situation arises. If "desperate" means someone's kids are starving, (and we're aware of it), we should be doing something charitable to help them out; not taking their transportation for a song because they need food so desperately. Then again, how many times do those types of situations actually come up? If "desperate" refers to someone needing money to go on a Christmas vacation, and they just want the vehicle off their hands asap? I think a low-ball offer is fine; they probably possess enough backbone to let the buyer know if it's out of the question. :tongue_smilie:

 

Personally, I believe enough in the goodness of people to not suspect the majority of them to go around knowingly robbing food from the tables of starving families just so they can drive a jag. (Even if DR told them it was okay.)

[Elaine]

I'm not using an extreme...I'm putting into perspective. He knew that the guy selling the jaguar was desperate, and then he offered an even ridiculously lower price for it because he knew the seller was that desperate. He proudly proclaims this in his book and tells people it's okay to take advantage...

 

Do you have a quote for this accusation?

[Laurie4b]

I don't think people are saying it's okay to take advantage of people. But many of us don't view negotiating a sales price as taking advantage.

 

:iagree:

[Elaine]

Can you link or somehow scan that DR wrote this in his book? This doesn't seem to be authentic.

 

The OP has yet to post the exact quote with a page number or, better yet, book title.:confused:

[Laurie4b]

I know of DR, but I haven't read any of his books. That aside, I'd still like to read the exact quote. It would give a better foundation for this discussion if we could determine the context for ourselves, kwim?

 

.)

 

This is like the third time on the thread someone has asked for the quote.

 

OP--were you quoting? It would be nice to have an answer to that since you're specifically using Dave Ramsey's name.

[aggieamy]

This is like the third time on the thread someone has asked for the quote.

 

OP--were you quoting? It would be nice to have an answer to that since you're specifically using Dave Ramsey's name.

 

I agree. Until I see a quote all this is not worth arguing about.

[silliness7]

Financial Peace p.178

 

"Years ago, when Houston, Texas, and other oil cities were having serious economic trouble, the high-priced luxury car market was deeply depressed. I decided during that time that I had to have a Jaguar automobile. I ended up buying a Jag in excellent condition with low miles, on a Monday night in the rain, for $21,000. At that time it had a retail value of $29,000. I saved $8,000! I bought it from a real estate developer who would lose it to the bank on Friday if he did not sell it that week. He was motivated and very happy to see me - and my cash.

 

The reasons I am telling you about this purchase is that it took me six months to find the right rice on the right car. I subscribed to the Houston newspaper and cut out the Jag ads every day and called every one for six months before I found the great buy I needed. you have to have patience."

[Elaine]

Financial Peace p.178

 

"Years ago, when Houston, Texas, and other oil cities were having serious economic trouble, the high-priced luxury car market was deeply depressed. I decided during that time that I had to have a Jaguar automobile. I ended up buying a Jag in excellent condition with low miles, on a Monday night in the rain, for $21,000. At that time it had a retail value of $29,000. I saved $8,000! I bought it from a real estate developer who would lose it to the bank on Friday if he did not sell it that week. He was motivated and very happy to see me - and my cash.

 

The reasons I am telling you about this purchase is that it took me six months to find the right rice on the right car. I subscribed to the Houston newspaper and cut out the Jag ads every day and called every one for six months before I found the great buy I needed. you have to have patience."

 

Thank-you, Rebecca. That sounds very different from this, "It seems that everyone that reads his books begins to think it's okay to make ridiculously insulting offers when buying things from another person.

 

I read Ramsey's books and in one of them he proudly states how some one was desperate to sell their Jaguar and Ramsey offered them even less than they were asking because he knew they were desperate."

 

No where does that quote say he made the man an insulting offer. He simply stated the market value, and what he paid for it.

[silliness7]

The jag story is in Chapter 13: Buy Only Big, Big Bargains

 

At the beginning of the chapter and several pages prior to the story DR talks about negotiating win-wins.

 

p.164 "If you will approach your purchase looking for a way to win for everyone, you will buy thngs very cheaply. If someone needs to sell very badly, you have helped him by making that purchase. But you must win too, and your winning can occur in the area of price or terms."

 

"..if you bring creativity and communication to your purchases you can make excellent buys and help people in the process."

 

It sounds like he was happy with his Jag purchase but it doesn't sound like that great of a deal to me. But I drive a Focus with a missing mirror and the trunk doesn't open and we can't turn the car all the way off ever or it may not start back up again. So I don't know nuthin' 'bout luxury cars. :001_smile:

And the desperate guy got in over his head with the bank and his real estate "deals." It's funny how there are 12 pages of starving kid scenarios.

[Laurie4b]

Financial Peace p.178

 

"Years ago, when Houston, Texas, and other oil cities were having serious economic trouble, the high-priced luxury car market was deeply depressed. I decided during that time that I had to have a Jaguar automobile. I ended up buying a Jag in excellent condition with low miles, on a Monday night in the rain, for $21,000. At that time it had a retail value of $29,000. I saved $8,000! I bought it from a real estate developer who would lose it to the bank on Friday if he did not sell it that week. He was motivated and very happy to see me - and my cash.

 

The reasons I am telling you about this purchase is that it took me six months to find the right rice on the right car. I subscribed to the Houston newspaper and cut out the Jag ads every day and called every one for six months before I found the great buy I needed. you have to have patience."

 

Don't see the "desperation", don't see anybody ripping anybody off, don't see anything about starving children. This must not be the right quote. In this situation, the buyer and seller are both described as happy. The seller is $21,000 richer than he would otherwise have been the next Friday. And DR is quoted here as saying it was the great buy he needed. Could we interpret that to mean he didn't have $29,000 for the car and paid what was in his budget for it? He's not boasting about ripping someone off.

 

I'd still like to see the quote the OP was talking about. This one doesn't fit. Maybe DR is a Jaguar fan and there was another scenario with someone who was desperate so he ripped him off.

[Elaine]

The jag story is in Chapter 13: Buy Only Big, Big Bargains

 

At the beginning of the chapter and several pages prior to the story DR talks about negotiating win-wins.

 

p.164 "If you will approach your purchase looking for a way to win for everyone, you will buy thngs very cheaply. If someone needs to sell very badly, you have helped him by making that purchase. But you must win too, and your winning can occur in the area of price or terms."

 

"..if you bring creativity and communication to your purchases you can make excellent buys and help people in the process."

 

It sounds like he was happy with his Jag purchase but it doesn't sound like that great of a deal to me. But I drive a Focus with a missing mirror and the trunk doesn't open and we can't turn the car all the way off ever or it may not start back up again. So I don't know nuthin' 'bout luxury cars. :001_smile:

And the desperate guy got in over his head with the bank and his real estate "deals." It's funny how there are 12 pages of starving kid scenarios.

 

Oh, I know. The bottom line is, someone was in over their head and as sad as it is, your life is not my responsibility.

 

Not a starving child story but, we recently sold a motorcycle on Craig's List to a guy who gave us a huge song and dance about not having all of the money. My husband finally said to him, "We are not coming down any further in price, this is a luxury item, and you have to pay for the luxury of owning it." This was after we came down $100. He ended up taking the motorcycle, it was a Christmas gift for his son.

 

 

I drive a paid for Tahoe, with torn leather seats and kid stained rug. I am happy.:001_smile:

[Mejane]

Financial Peace p.178

 

"Years ago, when Houston, Texas, and other oil cities were having serious economic trouble, the high-priced luxury car market was deeply depressed. I decided during that time that I had to have a Jaguar automobile. I ended up buying a Jag in excellent condition with low miles, on a Monday night in the rain, for $21,000. At that time it had a retail value of $29,000. I saved $8,000! I bought it from a real estate developer who would lose it to the bank on Friday if he did not sell it that week. He was motivated and very happy to see me - and my cash.

 

 

 

I have no problem with this scenario. Sounds like a win-win.

[elegantlion]

I have no problem with this scenario. Sounds like a win-win.

 

Actually the quote never says the man was asking 29k for the car. That was retail value. Anyone who has ever checked KBB knows how different the values can be between retail and selling outright. For all we know from the quote he gave the man exactly what he wanted.

[Lovedtodeath]

It is obvious from the posts in this thread that DR followers think it's okay to take advantage of desperate people.

 

That is incredibly rude. Furthermore, using his budget and investing plan does not make me a follower.

 

My leader is one, Christ. He has never taught anyone to take advantage of anyone else.

[Sahamamama]

When a person is desperate, they are unreasonable. It's taking advantage of their situation. I'm guessing you've never been hungry or had a house full of hungry kids - Have you ever been so desperate that you'd sell your most prized possession for whatever any one offers to feed those kids?

 

But when a person is desperate, does that obligate me to pay more for something than I would otherwise -- that is, if they were not desperate?

[Sahamamama]

When a person is desperate, they are unreasonable. It's taking advantage of their situation. I'm guessing you've never been hungry or had a house full of hungry kids - Have you ever been so desperate that you'd sell your most prized possession for whatever any one offers to feed those kids?

 

Actually, I think that a seller informing a buyer that "Hey, we're desperate" is taking advantage of a buyer's potential soft spot. How would a buyer know that a seller is "desperate," unless the seller somehow "slips" that information? Who is really taking advantage of whom?