CLHCO Posted August 25, 2010 Share Posted August 25, 2010 : You've gotten a lot of great advice already, so I'm going to go with my favorite topic ever: FOOD. :D Take out ALL artificial colorings, especially Red 40 & Yellow 5. They are *known* to cause behavior problems in children, and are banned in many countries. Then take out BHT & TBHQ. They are petroleum products that are also high triggers for behavior problems. Of course, the thing that helped the absolute most for us was going gluten free, but eliminating those additives made huge differences before that. I could tell within half an hour if someone had slipped the boy a piece of candy. Oh yes! I forgot about this. I've found differences, not complete cures, but definite differences when I keep my son on a more natural diet. I have also noticed that laundry/cleaning products change his behavior. He was seven before I figured out how dramatic the difference can be at times. Within 2 weeks of initially pulling him off things with scents and chemicals, I noticed a strong improvement - maybe especially in the area of defiance, which you would assume is a purely behavioral issue. That doesn't mean he doesn't get into mischief a lot, but the defiance and extreme aspects of his behavior do calm down. Something to consider? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melissel Posted August 25, 2010 Author Share Posted August 25, 2010 I don't agree with others that your child is purposefully defiant. In my experience, a 4-yr old wants to be loved by a parent. So either she's trying to get attention, or something else is messing up her system! Oh, I forgot I wanted to address this too. You are right: Most of the time, I don't think she's trying to be defiant, and I especially don't think so in this case. She needs very clear boundaries, and when she's given boundaries and understands them, she works hard to stay within them. But many times, she'll do something in secret because she simply does not want to be told she can't. She just wants to do what she wants to do and doesn't want to be thwarted in any way! I just read a great book that called kids like this "aggressive researchers," always testing to make sure the boundary is truly the boundary, and it's so very true. It's like that guy lived in my house for a month and then wrote a book about it! I will say though, that there are plenty of times where I can see she's fighting to regain even a tiny modicum of power after she's told no about something. Just yesterday, I was getting ready to serve dinner, and she harped at me and said, "I want my food, NOW!" I just kept prepping and told her I'd serve her when she was able to ask me politely for some food (totally a common occurrence in our house, we're trying to curb the demanding of things and redirect toward polite requests). I didn't yell or lecture or reprimand, just stated that she needed to ask me politely. She didn't cry or talk back or anything. The next thing I knew, she had just disappeared from the room, and she started sending DD7 in with messages: It was my fault that she started to cry (I don't think she did) and that she would only eat dinner if I served it to her in her room. I said that dinner was being served on the table in the kitchen only, and she could come in when she was ready to eat, or not, whatever. She sent her sister back to say that she would come and eat, but she had to sit in the kitchen while we sat in the dining room. Then she would only eat if she sat in the dining room and we blasted the audiobook we were listening to. Then she would only eat if I prepared her food in a bunch of specific ways. When I went down and told her that she could come to the table when she was ready and she could tell me how she wanted her pasta then, she came storming down the hall with a husband pillow and insisted that she would eat on the floor with a book. I reiterated that food was being served on the table, and she went and put her husband pillow back on her bed, sat at the table, and asked me politely for food. The rest of the meal and evening were completely normal in tone and behavior! Aggressive researchers indeed!!!! :banghead: So yes, in general, I agree with you, but for my kid at least, when a power struggle's a-brewin', it's often just about power :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melissel Posted August 25, 2010 Author Share Posted August 25, 2010 stop what? Giving her opinion? I for one agree with PygmyShrew. I had two first (girl) cousins who were JUST like this in their youths. One died of drug overdose in her bathtub at age 18 and the other is 14 and heading in the same direction --- lying, dominating the family, creating drama after drama, the family revolves at her will/mercy, even SHE's at the mercy of her passing whims and she/all are miserable under her reign of terror. It's no LIGHT matter here. This IS serious. The OP is RIGHT on for feeling concerned and upset. Their lives are being completely dominantly by a 4 year old CHILD! How crazy is this!?!?! IMO, mom, the L A S T thing she needs is for you to send her anywhere else for now. Until you have her under AUTHORITY in general (which begins ONLY at home) then you'd be derelict in your duty as a parent to her. This is YOUR NUMBER ONE JOB (it's ALL of our number one jobs): to teach your child to do what he/she OUGHT and not be a slave to her whims/passions/will a la "self-control". She doesn't need to be channeled, or to have her "creative energies" put on a better more constructive path ---- she s a rebellious child who despises authority and who has not been made to obey. Plain as that. No need to couch it in ANY other terms. And, this has been allowed to occur. You have to decide how serious getting your child to submit to authority is to you. For myself.....I'd do no school, nothing with her except work on this. You do this in love yet firmly. In a child's mind there's a simple equation in the balance: NEGATIVE CONSEQUENCE TO ME vs. DOING WHAT I WANT. When one side of this outweighs the other, the balance it tipped. You as the parent can add (using the multitudes of leverage you have over her at this age) whatever to the negative side. We generally use a lovingly-controlled spanking at our home, but if you don't then you could add whatever to that side. Perhaps it's 1. Loading up Fluffy the Dog and letting him spend a week at grandma's 2. Having her unload a HUGE box of her favorite toys at the Goodwill 3. Having a day of rice, beans and water offered to her 4. No TV 5. No swimming 6. Cancel gymnastics lessons You can get creative here. Now...this is just about how to change behavior------to change the HEART that Tripp book Shepherding a Child's Heart is excellent. I'd get Shepherding a Child's Heart (Tedd Tripp) in the morning. I'd also consider buying the book THE COMPLIANT CHILD about the negative affects having a sibling like that has on the compliant sibling. There's lots at stake here. Also, the book THE NEW STRONG-WILLED CHILD book by Dr. James Dobson. Best wishes to you as you help her! Just for future reference, we are not Christians, and no book by the Pearls or Dobson will enter this house. I appreciate EVERYONE's time and thoughts, but I don't want a fight to start over this issue in this thread. I will take a look at the Tripp book, because I am definitely worried about the state of her heart! But if it's along the Pearl/Dobson lines, it's probably not for us. Thank you, mhg and PygmyShrew and Skadi. I don't want you to think that I'm not grateful that you took the time to offer your help--I definitely am. We are seeing fruit from our current discipline efforts (I mentioned the boundaries thing above--that has made the most difference, it's amazing). My main frustration tonight was more along the lines of, how can I set clear boundaries for things that I can't even envision happening? And if I can't set the boundaries in advance, how can I reduce the occurrence of these crazy, random behaviors? I don't think she drowned the coins in any kind of direct disobedience. I just don't think it would occur to her to think it might be a problem! Odds are, she was making "soup." She loves to make big pots of play soup out of anything she can find to use--I drink a lot of pretend soup and tea. The lying part, of course, IS a big problem, and I addressed that tonight and will keep doing so. We had made progress on that issue, and this is one of the few times that she managed to actually put one over on me. Her opportunities to do so will have to be greatly reduced! I've never heard of the Compliant Child book--I'll look for that one too, because the effects on her sister do concern me. DD7 has begun to self-identify as the "helpful" one, the "good" one. I don't really want that either! So I'll look into that as soon as I'm done here. Thank you all! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melissel Posted August 25, 2010 Author Share Posted August 25, 2010 Oh yes! I forgot about this. I've found differences, not complete cures, but definite differences when I keep my son on a more natural diet. I have also noticed that laundry/cleaning products change his behavior. He was seven before I figured out how dramatic the difference can be at times. Within 2 weeks of initially pulling him off things with scents and chemicals, I noticed a strong improvement - maybe especially in the area of defiance, which you would assume is a purely behavioral issue. That doesn't mean he doesn't get into mischief a lot, but the defiance and extreme aspects of his behavior do calm down. Something to consider? Hmm, interesting... I have been considering the sugar/carb/blood sugar aspect in the last week or so, but I had never thought about the environmental chemicals. I'll keep an eye on it! In general, our diet and home care products are pretty much whole-food based/all natural/organic, and she's always been this way. She had a bottle at 8 weeks old, and after that, she would scream at my breast because the milk didn't come at the same speed as the bottle provided it. I delayed solids with my first baby and was going to do so with her, but when she was 5 months old, she realized that she wasn't eating the same food we were at meals and began to fuss and grump at meals. I finally gave her the most benign finger food I could find, organic puffed rice cereal. That kept her happy for about two weeks, until she realized that she still wasn't eating the same food we were and refused to touch another piece of puffed rice again. She walked at 10 months and daytime potty-trained herself at 16 months. Literally. Potty-trained herself. I had nothing at all to do with it except to leave her pants off and keep a potty in the living room. She's...determined :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barb_ Posted August 25, 2010 Share Posted August 25, 2010 She walked at 10 months and daytime potty-trained herself at 16 months. Literally. Potty-trained herself. I had nothing at all to do with it except to leave her pants off and keep a potty in the living room. She's...determined :lol: Here is where you remind yourself that the traits that are the hardest to live with in children are often their greatest strengths as adults. I've seen this come to fruition in my oldest children. Dig into the biography of anyone who is exceptionally talented and/or successful and you'll uncover stories of childhood terrors. Edison anyone? Thomas Alvin Edison is cited more often than any other historical figure for exhibiting classic hyperactive ADD behavior. ADD and divergent thinking styles have even been dubbed "The Edison Trait." So here's a page on the poster child himself. ~ ~ ~ In 1837 the Edison family fled from Canada to the U.S. because Thomas Edison's father was involved in a revolutionary movement against the Canadian Government. Ten years later Thomas was born, and within his first six years he had managed to burn down the family barn. During his early years, Thomas suffered from scarlet fever and several ear infections, which left him hard of hearing. Even so, he was a talkative child who used to annoy adults with his constant questions. Although young Al (as he was called in those days) was certainly very gifted and must have had a very high IQ, one teacher called him "addled," which meant "confused or stupid." He attended three different schools between the ages of seven to nine, and none of his teachers had the patience to deal with his apparent inability to sit still, his lack of focus on the matter at hand, and his talkativeness. Al like to talk but not listen! The hero of Al's childhood was his mother, who pulled him out of school after the school master said Al was unteachable, and homeschooled him herself. Al was a scientist and an entrepreneur from a very early age, and his mother encouraged him. He loved to explore and experience, not learn through rote memorization. His mother let him set up a laboratory in the cellar. Her faith in his natural abilities was at odds with the rest of the world. Even his father seemed to think he was stupid. Hmmm...no mention of beans or Goodwill anywhere. And I think old Thomas did all right for himself in the end. Barb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laura Corin Posted August 25, 2010 Share Posted August 25, 2010 I'd start by locking away all writing implements until she is trustworthy with them. She can have them out when you are having a relaxing cup of tea and sitting right near her. Best wishes Laura Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melissel Posted August 25, 2010 Author Share Posted August 25, 2010 Here is where you remind yourself that the traits that are the hardest to live with in children are often their greatest strengths as adults. I've seen this come to fruition in my oldest children. Dig into the biography of anyone who is exceptionally talented and/or successful and you'll uncover stories of childhood terrors. Thank you, yes, I do tell myself that all time! My mom says my personality was not quite so strong when I was little, but that I was still very much like DD4 is. And as a teen and young adult, I was very much of the "You can't tell me what to do!" mindset. Fortunately, I was also a very level-headed kid! And now I consider it one of my strongest traits, though now it's tempered more into an "I'm going to make this work if it's the last thing I do" mindset. I'm clearly not going to train it OUT of her, so I'm struggling to, as a PP said, channel it into something useful and not set the two of us up to go head to head for the rest of our lives. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maverick_Mom Posted August 25, 2010 Share Posted August 25, 2010 My son is like this. It has improved over time, but there are days when I am at my wits' end. For him, it is about serious problems with *impulse control.* (He has executive function problems in general.) No words of wisdom. Just lots of empathy. :grouphug: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melissel Posted August 25, 2010 Author Share Posted August 25, 2010 I'd start by locking away all writing implements until she is trustworthy with them. She can have them out when you are having a relaxing cup of tea and sitting right near her. Best wishes Laura I know, this is the obvious answer. There's a part of me that thinks, we're a homeschooling family. How can I possibly lock up every pencil, pen, dry erase marker, Sharpie marker (big in my kitchen), crayon, etc.? But then the other part says...well, you just do, and you stay on top of it. It just stinks that I have to *sigh* Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heidi @ Mt Hope Posted August 25, 2010 Share Posted August 25, 2010 Here is where you remind yourself that the traits that are the hardest to live with in children are often their greatest strengths as adults. I've seen this come to fruition in my oldest children. Dig into the biography of anyone who is exceptionally talented and/or successful and you'll uncover stories of childhood terrors. Edison anyone? Barb :iagree: I said this before I had children, and I remind myself of this OFTEN. My most difficult child is so curious about EVERYTHING and he is a natural scientist. He must be hands-on and test everything. At his young age, that often means getting into something he isn't supposed to touch, breaking something, or making a huge disaster. He doesn't do it because he is trying to be difficult. He is my most loving, caring child. My nephew was similar in personality and very difficult as a young guy. But now he is extremely helpful to my sister, fixing everything around the house, doing big projects, even cooking dinner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melissel Posted August 25, 2010 Author Share Posted August 25, 2010 mhg, can you point me in the direction of the Compliant Child book? I'm not coming up with it when I search. I'm wondering if I need to tweak the title in my searches? Also, in case anyone's interested, I forgot to link the book I read that I really liked: Setting Limits With Your Strong-Willed Child It so very simple, and yet for me, so revolutionary. The analysis and advice are very straightforward and clear, and he covers just about every scenario I could imagine. It's a great book. I wasn't raised with strong boundaries, and for various reasons, I kind of made my own way through childhood and teenagerhood. I was very lucky to get through those years safely. And my oldest did not need strong, clearly delineated boundaries at all. She was very happy to do just what you asked her of her, and if you set a limit and told her why, she believed you readily and rarely tested it. She's happy to believe that we are the authorities. DD4 has rocked my world. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laura Corin Posted August 25, 2010 Share Posted August 25, 2010 I know, this is the obvious answer. There's a part of me that thinks, we're a homeschooling family. How can I possibly lock up every pencil, pen, dry erase marker, Sharpie marker (big in my kitchen), crayon, etc.? But then the other part says...well, you just do, and you stay on top of it. It just stinks that I have to *sigh* I always do try to stop the behaviour (to give me a break) then work on the relationship, with lots of hugs and attention. Best of luck, Laura Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pamela H in Texas Posted August 25, 2010 Share Posted August 25, 2010 (edited) I read through part of this thread and was saddened by a few posts. Fortunately, some people don't know what TRULY challenging children are like. Unfortunately, certain "christian" writers are some of these people and child abuse, even death, has occurred because parents weren't smart enough to chuck the bad advice that may work fine for a normal or normally difficult kid, but will NOT work for truly challenging. I hate to recall our time trying to follow these people because it shows what a horrible mother I was to do that to my child! What made us different? Why did we chuck the bad advice and learn better when some people end up abusing their kids? To be honest, I have read these "christian" writers since (kinda recently even) and I *still* agree with them on most things outside of the consistent "spankings." I absolutely believe in nipping things in the bud. I was a VERY strict mom who ran a very tight ship. That is what my child needed (and it's more my personality). And doing so made it where I rarely felt the need to punish once I got good at it. It is all possible without hitting them! Good parents can CHOOSE better parenting. Anyone who wants to learn to can do it. But maybe there isn't much reason to for some people. I mean, for my daughter, I can't imagine doing much in the way of change. It probably never would have crossed my mind to change what we were doing. And for a few other people, I can see upping the ante (mistakenly imo, but...) for certain ages and stages and average difficult kids. But people with truly challenging kiddos REALLY need to go the other direction. They need to teach this kid life skills and tools. They need to teach him to get his needs met in healthy ways. They need to teach him that their "powers can be used for good, not evil." LOL Punishment doesn't do any of these things and hitting certainly doesn't. In fact, it could actually teach him just the opposite. I pulled this from another post: In a child's mind there's a simple equation in the balance: NEGATIVE CONSEQUENCE TO ME vs. DOING WHAT I WANT. This is EXACTLY the problem you do NOT want to create or encourage further with truly challenging kids (and really any kid). But there is no amount of beating (or other punishment) some kids won't take on! It's worth it for them for any number of reasons. When you've escalated it, esp with a FOUR yr old, to the extreme, there is NO WHERE ELSE TO GO! You've taken away all natural and logical consequence's power! I really think this is an issue because 1) what ELSE can you do? What is beyond taking everything from their rooms or beating them with a stick? and 2) what happens when life doesn't offer such extreme consequences to the balance for most thingsAnd most of the time the worst consequences are pretty inconsistent. Kids like these need MILD and REAL LIFE consequences to be MEANINGFUL. You have to remember that you're not just parenting a preschooler, but a person who soon has to join the rest of society where consequences and punishments are few and far between and aren't major but for the worst of the worst. Are you raising someone that needs to deal with significant punishments? Or are you raising someone you want to be able to function WELL within real life's boundaries for a productive, happy, healthy, contributing member of society? Anyway, sorry for the soapbox. There were a couple posts before the one I took the equation from and I just feel sometimes some parents may need to hear that you CAN parent firmly without turning to regular or harsh punishments and that there are really good reasons to do so, at least if you truly do have a kiddo who is challenging. Edited August 25, 2010 by 2J5M9K Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarriorMama Posted August 25, 2010 Share Posted August 25, 2010 I have two of them that are like this. It is extremely exhausting, frustrating, aggravating....I get daily headaches. We have drawing on almost every wall of the house, our rug is stained everywhere, we lose toys in the fireplace, any paper left out is shredded and scattered, we lost a pair of sneakers inside a reclining chair:confused:, furniture has been broken..... And my house is small enough that you can hear a normal volume conversation taking place anywhere in the house from any other point in the house. What sort of helps (or at least gives me two minutes to do dishes or laundry) - we have a large baby gate between our living room and entry way. This way the kids cannot get to (or escape through) the front door, cannot go in the kitchen and cannot bother the dog. All crayons, markers, etc. are kept very high out of reach and only used under supervision (although one or two always seem to pop up later). All cabinets have latches on them (only one kind still works, they figured out all the rest). All furniture has to be far enough away from walls, bulletin boards, bookcases, etc. that they can not be used to climb up to reach things that would normally be out of reach. All toys that are out are kept in canvas bins that collapse when stood upon - all plastic bins and drawers were removed. (Although this post will show you where that got us.) I just keep reminding myself - "this too shall pass". I just had to tell you that the idea of a pair of sneakers disappearing into a reclining chair has me :lol: That's TOTALLY something that would happen at my house! My entire furniture arrangement revolves around making sure nothing can be climbed on to get anything else, too. NOTHING can ever be left on the floor (my husband didn't understand this one until he witnessed our almost-two-yo using a box of diapers to try and climb over the baby gate...at the top of the stairs. :glare:). I hate to say I told you so... I have a picture of the same kid standing on a couch cushion unlocking the front door. :eek: After a really tame first child, this has really been an experience. I sure don't feel like such a smug expert anymore! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
desertmum Posted August 25, 2010 Share Posted August 25, 2010 Here is where you remind yourself that the traits that are the hardest to live with in children are often their greatest strengths as adults. I've seen this come to fruition in my oldest children. Dig into the biography of anyone who is exceptionally talented and/or successful and you'll uncover stories of childhood terrors. Edison anyone? Hmmm...no mention of beans or Goodwill anywhere. And I think old Thomas did all right for himself in the end. Barb This description of Edison made me smile. Except for the burning of the barn this is almost exactly what my son is like. He is so strong willed it makes my hair curl but he is also very clever and kind when he sees someone in trouble. I still have to find a way to correct him as I don't believe in smacking and if I give him "time-out" in his room he starts playing! :confused: right now I am reading the tomato-stalking thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JVA Posted August 25, 2010 Share Posted August 25, 2010 This child's room should be completely EMPTIED- like just the mattress on the floor. Yes, we did this. All writing instruments, scissors, knives, forks, everything should be stored in locked cabinets. There should be child-proof locks on the drawers and cabinets. Poisoning is a possibility so don't forget the bathroom cabinets. Baby gates and locks on doors are a must. You've gotten a lot of great advice. Our oldest ds was a tornado so he had to run around the yard many times each morning- the kinetic energy just flowed out of him. It is exhausting. :grouphug: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MamaT Posted August 25, 2010 Share Posted August 25, 2010 My 13yo daughter was very destructive when she was that age. It was never in a malicious way, she just got absorbed in something and before you could snap your fingers she had destroyed something (a wall, the carpet, furniture). My problem at the time was that when she was 4, I also had a 1yo and a 2yo, along with three older kids. Basically, the house we lived in at the time looked horrible (at least to me). I lived through it and she outgrew it. I have to say, that same child still has more interests than I could ever juggle. She has you-tube channels doing make-up with many subscribers, she has an ebay business, she cooks better than I do, she dances, taught herself piano, she takes tennis lessons, etc. She is a very bright, accomplished girl. She is no longer destructive, but still very creative. Hang in there. This stage will not last forever. :001_smile: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wheres Toto Posted August 25, 2010 Share Posted August 25, 2010 (edited) I just had to tell you that the idea of a pair of sneakers disappearing into a reclining chair has me :lol:That's TOTALLY something that would happen at my house! My entire furniture arrangement revolves around making sure nothing can be climbed on to get anything else, too. NOTHING can ever be left on the floor (my husband didn't understand this one until he witnessed our almost-two-yo using a box of diapers to try and climb over the baby gate...at the top of the stairs. :glare:). I hate to say I told you so... I have a picture of the same kid standing on a couch cushion unlocking the front door. :eek: After a really tame first child, this has really been an experience. I sure don't feel like such a smug expert anymore! The majority of this thread is making me feel so much better about how we do things. I am so glad we are not the only ones with these challenges. I have been amazed at the stuff the kids have figured out how to use to reach things. Pillows piled high (and precariously), opening the recliner then standing on the top edge in its new position.:blink: And of course, as seen in the post, my 4 year old standing on top of my 2 year old. Both of the younger ones were climbing before they were walking. sigh.. my first one was soooo easy. As someone mentioned in a post - I constantly describe my son as "having no impulse control". He just doesn't seem to think things through - if it seems like a good idea at the time he's going to go for it. It's all part of his quirks. This is also a good portion of the reason we're homeschooling. I want to be able to re-direct and teach him without the constant trouble (and demands for medicating) that he would get into going to school. Good Luck to us all. ;) Melissa - I'm in NJ too. I bet if we got our kids together they could get into some REAL creative trouble together.:lol: Edited August 25, 2010 by dottieanna29 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris in VA Posted August 25, 2010 Share Posted August 25, 2010 Pamela, This really spoke to me, and I can say this is what happened to my middle son. But there is no amount of beating (or other punishment) some kids won't take on! It's worth it for them for any number of reasons. When you've escalated it, esp with a FOUR yr old, to the extreme, there is NO WHERE ELSE TO GO! You've taken away all natural and logical consequence's power! I really think this is an issue because 1) what ELSE can you do? What is beyond taking everything from their rooms or beating them with a stick? and 2) what happens when life doesn't offer such extreme consequences to the balance for most thingsAnd most of the time the worst consequences are pretty inconsistent. Kids like these need MILD and REAL LIFE consequences to be MEANINGFUL. You have to remember that you're not just parenting a preschooler, but a person who soon has to join the rest of society where consequences and punishments are few and far between and aren't major but for the worst of the worst I wanted to keep upping the consequences, because that was all I knew to do. When the consequence of jail and months spent away from the family still didn't work, I knew we had to do something else. We are repairing our relationship, but now he's 18, and still making the same (nearly the same) poor choices in life, although looking at it from the outside and not knowing the backround, those choices may seem on the edge of normal (college drinking, occasional pot). I hope the OP finds a way that works. I never did. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garga Posted August 25, 2010 Share Posted August 25, 2010 In my mind, your only option is for the child to be glued to you. (That's what we call it in my house.) Wherever you go and whatever you do, the child goes and does it with you. It's a huge pain, but is the only thing I've found that works when you simply can't leave the child alone. It might take 10 times longer to cook lunch with the little one helping, but at least you don't have to stop cooking lunch to clean up an impossible mess that the child made in the living room while you were in the kitchen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElizabethB Posted August 25, 2010 Share Posted August 25, 2010 :grouphug: No ideas, sorry, but I thought this might bring a laugh, at least: My son when he was 2 he loved eggs. My husband was deployed. One day, my son was very quiet, so I got suspicious and went to check on him. He had locked himself in his room and was cracking eggs everywhere! :001_huh: Luckily, most of them were on a blanket, but 2 were all over his sit and spin and in a ring on the carpet. So, I spent 30 minutes or so getting an egg-goo ring out of the carpet. I told him "no eggs in the house." (What was I thinking? In my defense, I was sleep deprived and my husband was deployed.) Anyway, the next day it was again quiet and I found him in our backyard with the rest of the eggs! I couldn't yell at him because he had complied with the letter of the law!! :lol: New rule: these are Mom's eggs, and not toys, you may not have them ever, anywhere. He came up with a ton of things I would never think to ban in advance, either. He was better at 4, but ate a 1/2 tube of toothpaste (luckily he yaks easily so we didn't have to go to the hospital to induce vomiting) and ran around with his shirt over his head and got 7 or 8 stitches. He's 5 now and seems to have outgrown most of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhg Posted August 25, 2010 Share Posted August 25, 2010 In response to OP's not being able to find the compliant child book...... I couldn't find it either now that you mentioned it. My mom would know, but she's in Cozumel for 10 days, so I'll ask her when I see her and post it on this thread. If I forget, just remind me (PM). Another good book would be Dr. Kevin Leman's books.....think one of them is Have a new kid by Friday. He's written many and has some practical advice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
serabi Posted August 25, 2010 Share Posted August 25, 2010 Just for future reference, we are not Christians, and no book by the Pearls or Dobson will enter this house. I appreciate EVERYONE's time and thoughts, but I don't want a fight to start over this issue in this thread. I will take a look at the Tripp book, because I am definitely worried about the state of her heart! But if it's along the Pearl/Dobson lines, it's probably not for us Tripp is definitely along the same lines as Pearl and Dobson. It teaches to spank them until they are sweet, for instance. Here's one website about it. I have a kid who is very similar to yours (although he's younger...your post makes me terrified for the 4 year old years with him :lol:) and I found Raising Your Spirited Child to be really, really helpful. It is really positive and concrete and really helps navigate the line between needing to have firm limits versus not squashing the traits that will eventually be really, really good in adulthood. :tongue_smilie:The author has a spirited child, so she gets it. :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carol in Cal. Posted August 25, 2010 Share Posted August 25, 2010 I like the book "Becoming the Parent You Want to Be". It is positive and assumes that you're going to be effective and loving, both. But not a pushover. Also, one technique I have found helpful is figuring out a way to say 'yes.' So, for instance, the child wants to eat but it's not quite time. You say, 'yes, you may eat with us as soon as the big hand is on the 12. Do you want me to call you then or do you want to watch the clock yourself?' This is instead of saying 'no, it's not ready yet,' and it cleverly avoids a power struggle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justamouse Posted August 25, 2010 Share Posted August 25, 2010 This is a dangerous trend (that starts THIS early) but can EASILY turn into a pattern that will destruct her. Pffft. And your solution will destroy the gift God's given her and that as an adult will be the vehicle for her success. Here is where you remind yourself that the traits that are the hardest to live with in children are often their greatest strengths as adults. I've seen this come to fruition in my oldest children. Dig into the biography of anyone who is exceptionally talented and/or successful and you'll uncover stories of childhood terrors. Edison anyone? Hmmm...no mention of beans or Goodwill anywhere. And I think old Thomas did all right for himself in the end. Barb Yes. I have many of those kids. And the ones that aren't are the total opposite. Winning the battle isn't about coming down hard and showing them who's boss. Winning the battle is about being smarter and training them to their talent with boundaries. I call it using their powers for good, not evil. Hang in there. You know your kid and just take a few days to think about how to bend her toward expressing her creativity in positive ways. Give her challenges with boundaries that she doesn't see and then when she accomplishes them, have a party. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pippen Posted August 25, 2010 Share Posted August 25, 2010 :grouphug: No ideas, sorry, but I thought this might bring a laugh, at least: My son when he was 2 he loved eggs. My husband was deployed. One day, my son was very quiet, so I got suspicious and went to check on him. He had locked himself in his room and was cracking eggs everywhere! :001_huh: Luckily, most of them were on a blanket, but 2 were all over his sit and spin and in a ring on the carpet. So, I spent 30 minutes or so getting an egg-goo ring out of the carpet. I told him "no eggs in the house." (What was I thinking? In my defense, I was sleep deprived and my husband was deployed.) . Mine liked eggs too, but that was because they started with the letter "E". :001_huh: I rarely left mine alone but in the toddler and preschool years those times I wasn't looking or wasn't vigilant resulted in teeth brushed in the toilet, pancake syrup poured into empty playdought containers overflowing on the living room carpet, vaseline rubbed into the bedroom carpet, oregano sprinkled around the living room, letters and words and pictures on the walls, tribal stripes drawn in marker on chest and legs, a growth chart drawn onto my microwave cabinet, finger painted hand prints on the my kitchen wall, oatmeal everywhere, pepper mixed with water and given to baby sister to drink...sigh...well, you get the picture. When grandparents were around they wanted to give us a break but even then we knew we couldn't risk it because of the possibility of a quick disappearance so we would tag team off "Watch grandma watch X". I like the idea of the room with the half door. There was a period I couldn't leave the wild child alone or with the baby even to go change a load of laundryand a room like that would have helped. It was so exhausting and I really feel for you. If it's any encouragement it did end and I didn't have to be on 24/76. Now that child is a teen who doesn't want to be around us. ;) When it was just toddler stuff, it was often funny and understandable. When it was late preschool and instructions weren't being understood and/or followed even when they were given repeatedly and clearly, plus not responding to redirection or discipline, it was time for a professional evaluation. Hang in there. My ballpoint pen is out of ink but I can make it write, I think. I'll give it to my toddler small, who'll make it write upon the wall. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarriorMama Posted August 25, 2010 Share Posted August 25, 2010 The majority of this thread is making me feel so much better about how we do things. I am so glad we are not the only ones with these challenges. I have been amazed at the stuff the kids have figured out how to use to reach things. Pillows piled high (and precariously), opening the recliner then standing on the top edge in its new position.:blink: And of course, as seen in the post, my 4 year old standing on top of my 2 year old. Both of the younger ones were climbing before they were walking. sigh.. my first one was soooo easy. As someone mentioned in a post - I constantly describe my son as "having no impulse control". He just doesn't seem to think things through - if it seems like a good idea at the time he's going to go for it. It's all part of his quirks. This is also a good portion of the reason we're homeschooling. I want to be able to re-direct and teach him without the constant trouble (and demands for medicating) that he would get into going to school. Good Luck to us all. ;) Melissa - I'm in NJ too. I bet if we got our kids together they could get into some REAL creative trouble together.:lol: This thread is comforting to me, too. Most of my real-life friends have very tame children (like my first) who would never even THINK of doing the things my son has tried. He climbed before walking, too. *sigh* After posting on this thread this morning I went to put a few more things in my brand-new homeschooling cabinet where I've organized all our stuff for this year...and the bottom shelf was full of onions. :001_huh: Kids are just weird. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HS Mom in NC Posted August 25, 2010 Share Posted August 25, 2010 "Who's talking about dumping? Children behave differently in different environments. Sometimes a controlled environment is precisely what a child needs to get a handle on himself. The above statement is pretty heavy handed." This thread is about a child who needs to learn to behave with mom at home. Children are not the ones who need to get handles on themselves. Mom needs to get a handle on the child. Removing the child from both mom and home won't teach a child to behave at home with mom. A controlled environment at home structured and supervised by mom like the one I suggested in my post (and many others suggested too) will address the problem. You may not have used the term dump, but it seems to me that what you suggest is dumping. That's the term more than one teacher I have heard discussing this issue use. The other issue I have heard teachers discuss is that a child that can't obey mom just isn't ready for a classroom with a 10+ child to 1 teacher ratio. I have heard them talk about how much it robs the other children of their attention having to deal with a child whose mother has not taught the child basic standards of behavior like following directions and basic impulse control, etc. It is a huge burden on the teacher to have that dynamic going on in a classroom and it affects everyone there. I think some strong language to that effect is appropriate. It's not just about what's easier for mom, it's about how the decision negatively affects everyone in the situation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wheres Toto Posted August 25, 2010 Share Posted August 25, 2010 Kids are just weird. One of the many things DH and I often say to each other (although it's often phrased "your kids are weird" :D) along with: "Who does that?" "Where did they learn that one" "What did he/she just say!?!?" "Why would he think that was a good idea?" and "I'm not real sure how to answer that one" We try to laugh since the alternative is to sit sobbing in the corner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CLHCO Posted August 25, 2010 Share Posted August 25, 2010 One of the many things DH and I often say to each other (although it's often phrased "your kids are weird" :D) along with:"Who does that?" "Where did they learn that one" "What did he/she just say!?!?" "Why would he think that was a good idea?" and "I'm not real sure how to answer that one" We try to laugh since the alternative is to sit sobbing in the corner. Said often to my son, "THIS is why you would not survive 10 minutes on your own." Usually said while getting him unstuck from someplace, or taking electrical cords from him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melissel Posted August 25, 2010 Author Share Posted August 25, 2010 One of the many things DH and I often say to each other (although it's often phrased "your kids are weird" :D) along with:"Who does that?" "Where did they learn that one" "What did he/she just say!?!?" "Why would he think that was a good idea?" and "I'm not real sure how to answer that one" We try to laugh since the alternative is to sit sobbing in the corner. :lol::lol::lol: We have said SO MANY of the same things!!! Of course, DH also often says, "Hmmm, I wonder where she could have gotten THAT trait from..." :glare: "Who's talking about dumping? Children behave differently in different environments. Sometimes a controlled environment is precisely what a child needs to get a handle on himself. The above statement is pretty heavy handed." This thread is about a child who needs to learn to behave with mom at home. Children are not the ones who need to get handles on themselves. Mom needs to get a handle on the child. Removing the child from both mom and home won't teach a child to behave at home with mom. A controlled environment at home structured and supervised by mom like the one I suggested in my post (and many others suggested too) will address the problem. You may not have used the term dump, but it seems to me that what you suggest is dumping. That's the term more than one teacher I have heard discussing this issue use. The other issue I have heard teachers discuss is that a child that can't obey mom just isn't ready for a classroom with a 10+ child to 1 teacher ratio. I have heard them talk about how much it robs the other children of their attention having to deal with a child whose mother has not taught the child basic standards of behavior like following directions and basic impulse control, etc. It is a huge burden on the teacher to have that dynamic going on in a classroom and it affects everyone there. I think some strong language to that effect is appropriate. It's not just about what's easier for mom, it's about how the decision negatively affects everyone in the situation. I think we're really talking about two different kinds of kids here. DD actually spent last year in preschool two days a week, and she loved it and truly thrived there. They saw NONE of the behavior that we have at home. I kept asking every time we'd have a teacher meeting, waiting for them to break the bad news about her behavior. When she started preschool, she was still kicking and biting and hitting her sister. She never once did any of that at school. She was a model student there, and they were shocked to hear of the kind of behavior I was worrying about. Of course, in preschool, she was kept busy all day long because there was plenty to do and plenty of people to play with. There were routines and firm limits. I've never lived my life that way, and I never needed to until I realized recently just how badly she needs them. That's a big part of my struggle, my lifestyle and personality versus what she needs to happen. I think with a certain kind of kid, yes, it can be "dumping," as someone said. But I also think for a different kind of kid, it's just providing a different environment and a different set of personalities to help guide them through some things. That's OK too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dansamy Posted August 25, 2010 Share Posted August 25, 2010 My SIL, bless her heart, had to stop babysitting my kids while I was in nursing school because of the shenanigans. My sister seems to be able to handle them ok, but her DH is a control freak and they're probably terrified of ticking him off. I tend to just yell at them and any accompanying punishment isn't much worse than the yelling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wheres Toto Posted August 25, 2010 Share Posted August 25, 2010 :lol::lol::lol: We have said SO MANY of the same things!!! Of course, DH also often says, "Hmmm, I wonder where she could have gotten THAT trait from..." :glare: Of course, in preschool, she was kept busy all day long because there was plenty to do and plenty of people to play with. There were routines and firm limits. I've never lived my life that way, and I never needed to until I realized recently just how badly she needs them. That's a big part of my struggle, my lifestyle and personality versus what she needs to happen. I think with a certain kind of kid, yes, it can be "dumping," as someone said. But I also think for a different kind of kid, it's just providing a different environment and a different set of personalities to help guide them through some things. That's OK too. Lucky for me we know exactly where my kids get it from - from DH!! :lol:(although my brother is severe ADHD with some Aspergers - even though they didn't call it that back then - shhhh). MIL loves telling us about what dh was like as a kid and it's not too far off. It's very hard to sustain the non-stop stimulation and activities of a good preschool at home. They have multiple teachers who have nothing to do all day but entertain and monitor children - no laundry, dishes, cooking, cleaning (well maybe some cleaning) and usually just one age group to deal with. For some kids, that break from "normal" life can be a true blessing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sleepymommy Posted August 25, 2010 Share Posted August 25, 2010 :grouphug::grouphug::grouphug: Your post describes my kid x 2. Both of my boys are wild and it takes every ounce of my soul, every single minute of every single day. Ds6 does have SPD (sensory seeking) and ds3 just imitates. I try to provide a sensory diet as best I can. They are both movers and shakers, well runners and climbers would be a better description. Ds6 literally climbs the door frame (like someone climbing a coconut tree), then 'monkey bars' himself to the center of the frame, brings his legs up and hangs upside down. Mothers at playgrounds have come up to me ever since he was a toddler to tell me what dangerous things my boys are up to. People wince when they see the tall things my boys will jump off of, they have looks of horror when my boys are climbing on top of playground equipment, or when doing jumps and tricks with their bikes and scooters. It's not easy, I too worry about their safety. Prior to buying anything for the house (furniture, knick knacks, storage items, even mops, anything), my mind goes through all the possible scenarios that my kids might use the item for, as, or what they would do to it. I keep all glue, sharpies, pens, tape, etc up and away. This doesn't always stop them since they are climbers, but at least I might see them climbing to get to it prior to them actually getting to it. My dh has books and toys from his childhood that have lasted this long through multiple cousins and still in excellent condition, then my boys get them and they are damaged or destroyed in minutes. I've read multiple parenting advice books, but the consequences usually offered in those books do affect my kids, especially ds6. I don't have a whole lot of sage advice, but I'm glad you started this thread because it does help to know that we are not alone, it's hard to remember that since amongst our circle of friends and family we are the only ones with the wild card. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhg Posted August 25, 2010 Share Posted August 25, 2010 (edited) My main frustration tonight was more along the lines of, how can I set clear boundaries for things that I can't even envision happening? And if I can't set the boundaries in advance, how can I reduce the occurrence of these crazy, random behaviors? I don't think she drowned the coins in any kind of direct disobedience. Thank you all! When I spoke of defiance I wasn't referring to the behaviors where's she's being a child with the strong bent toward mess-making. But, at ALMOST 5, unless she is mentally impaired, then she's old enough to know what sort of behaviors upset you all. No one wants her not to pretend to make her soup and doodle, but she can learn to harness her creative energy at the PLACE where this is allowed. And she can learn that any other place besides her SPOT has to be OK'd by you first. She can get the concept of messes and what tidy-ness looks like and that you want it (generally) maintained. You know when she's repeatedly doing something you've told her NOT to do. She can be taught that if you "find" messes outside the MESS ZONE that she's disobeying you. A kid that her needs a MESS ZONE (do you have a back porch equipped with a hose?). If you do, I'd set her up her own little creative station where here and only here she can make her messes, and she'd understand that if she makes a mess outside the zones, then there's a consequence. Making her clean them up herself goes a long way as well (where feasible). And, even if you know she can't adequately clean it as you're going to have to do, I'd still let her have a fairly substantial time of working at cleaning it up. My references to disobedience were from OP's post about the child being prone to lying, sneaking, and defiance and have nothing to do about stopping her being a creative kid. She knows you wouldn't have your lamp and furniture destroyed. If she damaged your rug, for example, maybe take her aside (after the immediately consequence) and ALSO say, "Now, let's go to your room and see what we can sell on ebay/yardsale, so that I can start saving up money to buy a new rug...." So, she gets the concept that your hard work PAID for what she's defacing and that when she messes up we have to replace what we've damaged. If you break something in a store, you have to pay for it (same concept). Not to start a thread on this, but Shepherding a Child's Heart (Tedd Tripp) book has a lot of good information about negotiating with children and it's not an accurate statement to say as another previous person wrote, that it's a book about "spanking a child til they have a sweet heart"(her quote was something like that). Edited August 25, 2010 by mhg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhg Posted August 26, 2010 Share Posted August 26, 2010 One more tidbit....And, I'm not anti-preschool, but IMO if a person chooses to send a child to preschool, it should NOT be because he/she can't get their behavior under control at home. I wouldn't send her their UNTIL she was under your authority because she needs to be with you (MORE quantity of time) to WORK on this defiance. Went this route with my 2 cents as I disagreed with the advice that the remedy was to do preschool and not that I recall the OP saying she was contemplating preschool anyway....:001_huh:) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cjbeach Posted August 26, 2010 Share Posted August 26, 2010 I have a 4yo ALL BOY that is the dangerous type and oh boy...the stuff he does. When I'm really occupied -- trouble happens. Attention? Being just a maniac 4yo? I don't know but this kid needs to be occupied or he is in trouble or in my face (seriously he will come up and grab me by the face to look at him for attention). I need 4 more hands and 12 more hours in a day.......at least. Montessori Preschool for him was a blessing for all of us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragons in the flower bed Posted August 26, 2010 Share Posted August 26, 2010 The harder I come down on her, the more she struggles to defy me. The more I try to put controls on her, the more she struggles to regain the upper hand in any way possible. I have only been following this thread loosely, but saw it turn into compliance v. defiance waters, and by pass the No Greater Joy rock, and remembered something that has sometimes been appreciated by parents who are navigating such. With my crazy, what-will-he-do-next kid, I went as undiscipline as I could. If he was awful, I gave him more love. The book Raising Our Children Raising Ourselves by Naomi Aldort was helpful to me in getting over the sense that I was rewarding bad behavior. The closer I drew my son, the more empathetic he was about what would upset me, and the less such things happened. A lot of it I am sure was just that he outgrew it, but I still occasionally see him go through a difficult spurt and help him out of it by applying SALVE from that Aldort book: Separate yourself, Attention on the child, Listen, Validate, Empower. With my not completely insane children, natural consequences, or logical ones, or arbitrary ones, work. With destructoboy, it all backfired on me. The more I came down on him, the more he came down on us; the kinder I was to him, the kinder he was to me. We got out of the stage where it was a constant struggle, but still, when he's been awful, I find excuses to spoil him. And it helps! He chills out. He calms down. He thinks from our perspective. He starts giving us gifts. He does jobs for us, just volunteering to take over our chores. It's like me being nice to him activates his guilt center and he has to make up for the stuff he did earlier. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snowfall Posted August 26, 2010 Share Posted August 26, 2010 I read through part of this thread and was saddened by a few posts. Fortunately, some people don't know what TRULY challenging children are like. Unfortunately, certain "christian" writers are some of these people and child abuse, even death, has occurred because parents weren't smart enough to chuck the bad advice that may work fine for a normal or normally difficult kid, but will NOT work for truly challenging. I hate to recall our time trying to follow these people because it shows what a horrible mother I was to do that to my child! What made us different? Why did we chuck the bad advice and learn better when some people end up abusing their kids? To be honest, I have read these "christian" writers since (kinda recently even) and I *still* agree with them on most things outside of the consistent "spankings." I absolutely believe in nipping things in the bud. I was a VERY strict mom who ran a very tight ship. That is what my child needed (and it's more my personality). And doing so made it where I rarely felt the need to punish once I got good at it. It is all possible without hitting them! Good parents can CHOOSE better parenting. Anyone who wants to learn to can do it. But maybe there isn't much reason to for some people. I mean, for my daughter, I can't imagine doing much in the way of change. It probably never would have crossed my mind to change what we were doing. And for a few other people, I can see upping the ante (mistakenly imo, but...) for certain ages and stages and average difficult kids. But people with truly challenging kiddos REALLY need to go the other direction. They need to teach this kid life skills and tools. They need to teach him to get his needs met in healthy ways. They need to teach him that their "powers can be used for good, not evil." LOL Punishment doesn't do any of these things and hitting certainly doesn't. In fact, it could actually teach him just the opposite. I pulled this from another post: This is EXACTLY the problem you do NOT want to create or encourage further with truly challenging kids (and really any kid). But there is no amount of beating (or other punishment) some kids won't take on! It's worth it for them for any number of reasons. When you've escalated it, esp with a FOUR yr old, to the extreme, there is NO WHERE ELSE TO GO! You've taken away all natural and logical consequence's power! I really think this is an issue because 1) what ELSE can you do? What is beyond taking everything from their rooms or beating them with a stick? and 2) what happens when life doesn't offer such extreme consequences to the balance for most thingsAnd most of the time the worst consequences are pretty inconsistent. Kids like these need MILD and REAL LIFE consequences to be MEANINGFUL. You have to remember that you're not just parenting a preschooler, but a person who soon has to join the rest of society where consequences and punishments are few and far between and aren't major but for the worst of the worst. Are you raising someone that needs to deal with significant punishments? Or are you raising someone you want to be able to function WELL within real life's boundaries for a productive, happy, healthy, contributing member of society? Anyway, sorry for the soapbox. There were a couple posts before the one I took the equation from and I just feel sometimes some parents may need to hear that you CAN parent firmly without turning to regular or harsh punishments and that there are really good reasons to do so, at least if you truly do have a kiddo who is challenging. I agree, SO MUCH! My daughter is not challenging in the way of the OP's daughter (she's not destructive) but she's challenging in her own way (she has a bad attitude, is totally uncooperative, etc.) and I HATE it when people think the problem is just that she needs to be punished more. They don't get it. If I were to go down that path, my child would be one of the ones who'd be receiving daily beatings...multiple times a day, in fact. Spanking wouldn't cut it. Spanking doesn't hurt enough to be a strong motivator for a kid like my daughter. We've never tried it, but I know her. We'd have to resort to the abusive end of spanking. I certainly know her better than anyone on a message board who believes the real problem is that I didn't start hitting her with plastic pieces when she was an infant, a la the Pearls. Truly difficult children do NOT respond well to more and more and more and more punishment, and people who believe they will have simply never had one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lolly Posted August 26, 2010 Share Posted August 26, 2010 I have only been following this thread loosely, but saw it turn into compliance v. defiance waters, and by pass the No Greater Joy rock, and remembered something that has sometimes been appreciated by parents who are navigating such. With my crazy, what-will-he-do-next kid, I went as undiscipline as I could. If he was awful, I gave him more love. The book Raising Our Children Raising Ourselves by Naomi Aldort was helpful to me in getting over the sense that I was rewarding bad behavior. The closer I drew my son, the more empathetic he was about what would upset me, and the less such things happened. A lot of it I am sure was just that he outgrew it, but I still occasionally see him go through a difficult spurt and help him out of it by applying SALVE from that Aldort book: Separate yourself, Attention on the child, Listen, Validate, Empower. With my not completely insane children, natural consequences, or logical ones, or arbitrary ones, work. With destructoboy, it all backfired on me. The more I came down on him, the more he came down on us; the kinder I was to him, the kinder he was to me. We got out of the stage where it was a constant struggle, but still, when he's been awful, I find excuses to spoil him. And it helps! He chills out. He calms down. He thinks from our perspective. He starts giving us gifts. He does jobs for us, just volunteering to take over our chores. It's like me being nice to him activates his guilt center and he has to make up for the stuff he did earlier. This is some good wisdom right here! I've used it and it does work on some kids. It is what I found to work with my destructo child. What a hurtful thing to say to someone, Barb (esp the 2nd and 3rd line and your drawing the connection as the implication is quite uncalled for IMO). mhg's opinion to the OP was benign and simply her own opinion and is just as legitimate as your own. The OP is a big girl and can decide herself whether or not she thinks any of the comment is useful to her. Just because you disagree with another on here, there's no need for such. First your rude response to MY own post, then another to mhg's. The way your post and this poster worded things was black and white. You stated your opinion as the only possible way. The truth of the matter is that all children are different. There is no black and white to dealing with them. Those of us who have a bit more experience, older children now and multiple children with very different personalities, have learned the hard way that sometimes outside of the box works best. We have learned that the hard and fast line drawn in the sand is the worst way to raise some kids. To be quite frank, it generally only works with a couple of personality types. I have also found Barb's comment to be quite true. I didn't see it as coming across as being hurtful at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kate CA Posted August 26, 2010 Share Posted August 26, 2010 She does need to be supervised. I'm sorry, I know it's exhausting, but some kids are just this way. I would suggest a LOT of exercise, and a LOT of sensory opportunities, along with a ton of raw materials and relatively little direction in how to use them. If you have a really good parent participation developmental preschool around, especially one with a mixed age classroom, I would seriously consider that. Then she will have more opportunities to experiment with materials and be very physical. I would build her a sensory table--a cheap way to do this is to buy one of those cement stirring black tubs at the hardware store (they are made to be disposable, so they are very cheap), and put it on a garage sale coffee table outside. Alternate the materials in it, and cover it with an old door to keep the cats out when you're not using it. Maybe have two--one with water and the other with dry materials like dry beans or rice, sand, or noodles. You can buy these in bulk at Costco. Provide sand toys. Make playdough and encourage her to use it. Make the kind that you can bake to harden as well. Encourage her to make mud puddles and play in them. And make sure that she runs, crawls, jumps, does jumping jacks, crosses the midline with her hands, a lot. Have her trace 8 inch tall capital letters with her finger on a piece of window screen. Have her write over them with every color of crayon in her box. At this age, motor activities are needs, not just wants. They help her brain develop properly. She will grow out of this with time and patience and working together. But she really, really needs these outlets now. If you channel these needs into something inane and acceptable, it becomes completely reasonable to inhibit them inside. Great ideas for a busy little mind. :001_smile: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mom0012 Posted August 26, 2010 Share Posted August 26, 2010 I think the first thing I would do is make sure there is not a marker, pen, crayon, pencil anywhere to be found by her. Also, I do think this can be a phase at this age. I remember my kids getting into more mischief around then. I also remember my daughter (who has always been an easy, lovely, sweet child) going through a period where she would scribble on things -- her wall, a new piggy bank she got, etc. I came down really hard on her and I took all her crayons away. I almost think she couldn't help it at the time, but fortunately that period was very short-lived. Your daughter hasn't been reading Harold and the Purple Crayon has she? I think that might be what set mine off.:001_smile: Lisa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LizzyBee Posted August 26, 2010 Share Posted August 26, 2010 (edited) I have to say under NO circumstances should a child that challenging ever go into an institutional setting (preschools, church nursery, etc.) Mine wasn't in a church nursery/Sunday School until she was 4. It shouldn't ever be someone else's problem. I have several school teacher relatives and friends who have told me in various conversations that parents who dump their challenging kids off on already overburdened teachers with a room full of kids are not viewed very favorably. It's ciritical a child learn to obey mom and dad before they learn to obey caregivers who have been transferred that authority. We couldn't leave my youngest alone for 30 seconds. We couldn't schedule "playtime" for her with her older sisters because they couldn't handle her. She was almost always on my lap or on my hip during school time, because she wouldn't nap, either. There was no let up. But she did great in Sunday School. One time when I went to pick her up, her teacher was telling me what a pleasure she is to have in class, and I checked to make sure she was talking about my kid. I was sure she was talking about someone else. :lol: Blanket statements and generalizations don't always apply. Edited August 26, 2010 by LizzyBee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pamela H in Texas Posted August 26, 2010 Share Posted August 26, 2010 I disagree with the sentiment not to send these kids to daycare or preschool or school or whatever. Though I think there are benefits to being at home, I believe strongly that there are benefits to them going to such things also. It really depends on the kid and the situation. A good program with a strong teacher can really make a difference. Additionally, some kids need to not have so much direct attention. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LizzyBee Posted August 26, 2010 Share Posted August 26, 2010 (edited) This isn't an issue of your needing to "redirect" this child, or plunk her in preschool for some other "authority" to fight this out, putting up the school supplies. This is your GARDEN VARIETY disobedience and defiance and it needs to be NIPPED in the bud asap! This is not always true. My difficult child has a biological need for constant stimulation. Yes, it is biological and she was born that way - even the nurses in the hospital commented on her strong personality when she was only a day or two old. One of my regrets is that I didn't send her to preschool or ps kindergarten - not to get away from her or because I couldn't handle her, not because I didn't embrace my parental authority, but because the structure and stimulation would have been so good for her. My dd used to lie all the time. Except she wasn't really lying - she didn't understand the concept of telling the truth. I said to her that we always tell the truth so often that it felt like a mantra - but I never punished her because I knew she didn't really grasp the concept. She took things from her sisters, but again, she didn't really understand the concept of property rights. She simply saw something and thought she'd like to have it. When we'd find these things in her drawers, we made her return them, but again, we didn't punish her because it's wrong to punish kids when they don't fully understand why their action was wrong. She is 9 now and she has outgrown all these behaviors, but it was a process that took years, not days or weeks. I think when we assume the worst of children's hearts and intentions, we set up a constant conflict between child and parent that is unnecessary and destructive. My child outgrew her bad behaviors because we constantly reinforced positive expectations and we recognized that she was a high-need child, not a defiant, disobedient child. Edited August 26, 2010 by LizzyBee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danestress Posted August 26, 2010 Share Posted August 26, 2010 Keep her in preschool if that is working for you, but then tomato stake her ever single second of the day? Preschool won't kill her, and if it's helping you maintain mental sanity, I think you can do it in good conscience. I think I might have a daily plan that revolved around controlling this issue. It might look something like this Get her to preschool. Spend time with your other daughter. Do her school work. Pick young daughter up. Everyone goes to the park and play play plays. HARD. I might take jumping ropes, skate boards, balls, and any time someone thinks they are just going to sit, start a new game. Wear those children out. If it rains, you take a "puddle jumping" walk. I think outside time is absolutely mandatory every single day unless there is an active hurricane. I might make lunch an outside event most days if weather allows. Come home. 4 year old takes a quite time on a MAT where you can see her. You can clean, read, lesson plan where she is having that quite time. They do this in preschool, so it won't kill her. After nap, a little more active outside time (gardening? digging? playing in a mini pool? and then she is glued to your side while you do whatever you do in the afternoons and evenings. I think many children go through a stage like this, but you have to figure out how to get them PAST this stage. We used to call our twins "search" and "destroy" but in the end, part of what got them through that was me disciplining *myself* to be more present and more vigilant. My children were basically sweet and compliant, though, and never lied. So I am not saying that I have totally been where you are, but I am just trying to throw some ideas out and see if any of them resonate with you. Also, me being more FUN helped because bored children can be destructive children. I needed more of a plan, because all of us were happy when we knew what was coming next. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhg Posted August 26, 2010 Share Posted August 26, 2010 (edited) .....and nothing I say or do reaches her! ...ink scribbles on the arm of our new couch, deep pen gouges scribbled on our end table, green marker on our bedsheet, and letters in pen on our white lampshade :( ...I don't know what else to do. She's in trouble now for lying to me, but there seems to be nothing I can take away from her or punish her with that makes any difference to her! I don't even want to punish her, but I've talked myself blue in the face about not touching other people's things, not telling lies, not making messes that aren't OKed by me, not sneaking food, not using her sister's things without permission, and so on, and so on... She's wrecking my house! She's making me crazy! Everywhere she goes, she leaves a tornado-level wreck behind her! .... I'm sorry, this got long and I know I'm freaking out, but I'm so tired of scrubbing my carpeting... She is very much the kind of kid who, if you tell her she cannot do something, will immediately think, "Oh yeah? I'll show YOU what I can and cannot do!" The harder I come down on her, the more she struggles to defy me. The more I try to put controls on her, the more she struggles to regain the upper hand in any way possible. ! I took some liberty to delete some from OP's post above to leave the lines about which I want to write about here. The lines above TO ME show how the OP feels the child's behavior is affecting/effecting the family. The tone is clearly that MUCH of what is wrong is that the child repeatedly defies her mother and does what she knows she is not supposed to do. The verb defy is used by the mother. The OP is the one saying she has a proven track record of being the "kind of kid who, if you tell her she cannot do something, will immediately think, "Oh yeah? I'll show YOU what I can and cannot do!" (the MOTHER's exact words). Nothing I've ever posted was about the child not being a precious/talented/intelligent/explorative child. All of those gifts aren't to be put off. But a parent can encourage and allow this without having this child cause such troubles. I remember my parents saying that when I was 4 I took about 1000 stamps and stuck them on the outside of my home thinking they were the publisher's clearing house stickers. I didn't get a spanking for this first-offense as my parent's knew I didn't know better. But, any mom mom KNOWS which behaviors are the child HONESTLY not knowing any better and which are the child repeat offenses. If I'm understanding the OP, I think what is exasperating to the mom is that the child is repeating the SAME behaviors that the mother has repeatedly told her not to do --- thus the mom saying she's "talked myself blue in the face about not touching other people's things, not telling lies, not making messes that aren't OKed by me, not sneaking food, not using her sister's things without permission, and so on, and so on...". Because it's the same REPEAT behaviors in direct OPPOSITION to her mother's commands, it is an issue of disobedience. Like my son flushing a washrag down the toilet. I didn't spank him for this. I instructed him and explained to him about why we can't do this and we watched the plumber come retrieve it and had a big talk. Now...if he did it again, he would be punished now that he knows how I want him to behave in this particular area. I wouldn't advocate disciplining a child for this type of behavior, but I dont' get that those issues were the OP's TONE at all. This child sounds VERY bright and can certain learn the limits and the mom has to hold firm to discipling her in failing to keep within the reasonably placed LIMITS. Sure, the child should be encouraged to be her own God-given personality. But, that doesn't include lying, sneaking food, defacing lampshades, tearing up her sister's special photos, etc. She is old enough to learn distinct boundaries and to be expected and made to stay within them or that there will be consequences. To Barb in AZ, I'm sorry you've taken my opinions to the OP seemingly so personally. I do have much to learn and thankfully the Lord has put some wonderful people in my life that help me along this parenting path such as my amazing husband, parents, books and teachers; and I continue to try to soak up wisdom from others. I still feel my advice on this thread is sound, chiefly that it's important for a child at her age to learn to obey all the way, right away and with a happy heart. I have prayed that your methods yield great results for you and yours and I'll continue to pray that mine do the same for mine. Edited August 26, 2010 by mhg typos Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carol in Cal. Posted August 26, 2010 Share Posted August 26, 2010 If I'm understanding the OP, I think what is exasperating to the mom is that the child is repeating the SAME behaviors that the mother has repeatedly told her not to do --- thus the mom saying she's "talked myself blue in the face about not touching other people's things, not telling lies, not making messes that aren't OKed by me, not sneaking food, not using her sister's things without permission, and so on, and so on...". Because it's the same REPEAT behaviors in direct OPPOSITION to her mother's commands, it is an issue of disobedience. I don't think that anyone is arguing about this. I don't think that anyone is saying to be a pushover. I am NO pushover. Firm, solid consistency is crucial here. But in addition to this... What I am saying, and I don't believe I'm alone in this, is that one big factor in this situation is the developmental need for tiring, physical activity, and the drive toward it making this child's self-control of inappropriate inside-the-house behaviors unneccessarily difficult. We're not saying don't teach her to behave. We're saying, in addition to all of the things that you rightfully do to teach her to behave indoors, enable her to get some of this other stuff out of her system in an appropriate environment for that so that she will have an easier time complying with your correct instruction. And we're giving ways to do that. The goal here is self-discipline on the child's part, and compliance with the parent's authority, assisted by the parent making sure that the requirements are reasonable for this child at this age in this situation. We don't need to talk past each other. Both of these aspects of training are needed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RegularMom Posted August 26, 2010 Share Posted August 26, 2010 (edited) I have a dd just like what you described. She's very smart and very quick and very easily bored, and she has been a tornado pretty much all her life. And I also have spent a lot of time wondering how to anticipate her next move. How to keep her safe and in line and keep my house in some semblance of order. I still hide the scissors and markers and tape from her, but she still manages to find it all and drag it out and go wild with it. There are certain things I simply stopped buying - like Sharpie markers. (sigh) She's 7 now, and things are getting better with time, but it's still a struggle. One of the ways I've been able to keep my sanity and still provide the outlet she needs is to give her safe boundaries for destructive play. Right now, for instance, she's outside playing Brick Factory, which is a game from the Ramona books, in which you just take a brick and smash rocks with it. I found her playing this game one day last year, and decided to let her keep doing it. I told her which bricks to steer clear from, and told her if she ran out of rocks to let me know and I'd find more for her. And then I just let her do it. She smashes rocks into a fine powder. She can spend half the afternoon out there doing it sometimes. I don't know why. All I know is it helps her stay out of other trouble. It also tires her out a bit, which is always helpful. So, I look for other ways to give her a way to be "destructive" with other things. Outside is best, of course, but I have let her snip paper into tiny tiny pieces on rainy days. Then I let her vaccuum it all up. Stuff like that. She still is prone to getting into the garden and harvesting things before I'm ready to, and also has a habit of picking all the flowers. But she picks them to bring them to me, so I put them in water, and remind her to leave some on the stalks (again) and go on with my day. When she was younger, I'd let her play with water in sinks for hours. Just put down lots of towels and let her have at it. I also let her paint constantly. Watercolors usually. Just painting painting painting. All day long sometimes. There's just something about her that needs to do this stuff. It channels her wildness, and provides some sort of release. A lot of it may be that she's just so intelligent, and still so little. I know she's frustrated by the large gap in her intellectual ability and her emotional readiness. (sigh) Sometimes, when her older sister and I get to the point where we're about to go crazy, I'll attach her to me for just a little while. I'll make her follow me everywhere so I can keep an eye on her, and what ends up happening is that she begins to help me. She holds laundry baskets, opens doors, helps me cook, etc. This morning, I was cleaning out the school supply cabinet and she hovered near the whole time. She had to inspect it all, get her hands on it all, talk about it all. I just let her do it, but every time she started to get crazy with something, I'd redirect her or ask for the item. Or send her on an errand away from all that stuff she couldn't resist. She'd complete the errand (go toss this dishrag in the washer for me... go take this trash out to the bin for me...) and then she'd be right back to where I was, but she'd be refocused. I can't do it all the time, because it exhausts me, but I do it when I absolutely need to. I figure that there's going to be a pay-off to all this someday. She's going to have quite an interesting life, that's for sure. She's going to take on the world someday and she'll probably be wildly successful at it. I'm glad I'm homeschooling her, because she wouldn't last long in an industrial school environment. But, I just wanted to say that I know what you're talking about, and I know how hard it can be. ARGH!! I'm thinking of you. Hang in there. Edited August 26, 2010 by RegularMom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sparkle Posted August 27, 2010 Share Posted August 27, 2010 I want to share this post that I copied off another board several years ago. It has helped me a few times when dealing with my super active, headstrong child. 25 Good Things about ADHD 1. Lots of energy 2. Willing to try new things - take risks 3. Ready to talk - can talk a lot 4. Gets along well with adults 5. Can do several things at one time 6. Smart 7. Needs less sleep 8. Good sense of humor 9. Very good at taking care of younger children 10. Spontaneous 11. Sees details that others miss 12. Understands what it's like to be teased or to be in trouble, so is understanding of other kids 13. Can think of different and new ways to do things 14. Volunteers to help others 15. Happy and enthusiastic 16. Imaginative and creative 17. Articulate 18. Sensitive and compassionate 19. Eager to make new friends 20. Great memory 21. Courageous 22. More fun to be with than most children or adults 23. Charming 24. Warm and loving 25. Cares a lot about family life (posted by Brenda/I'mabeliever) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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