Staying away from Christian science curriculum

[Embassy]

Do any Christians here elect to stay away from Christian science curriculum? We have heard the stories or witnessed it for ourselves about how the Christian goes to college and starts to doubt his faith due to science classes. So why would staying away from Christian science curriculum help? My theory is that if a child has exposure to mainstream science his whole life there won't be surprises in college.

[Excelsior! Academy]

Apologia does a good job of explaining good science vs good scientists. I think with a foundation like that Christians are better prepared to study all science and still keep their core belief.

[Embassy]

Apologia does a good job of explaining good science vs good scientists. I think with a foundation like that Christians are better prepared to study all science and still keep their core belief.

 

But that is one problem I do have with Apologia. It extends a lot of effort defending Christianity. What if a child encounters good science in college that was not defended in Apologia?

[Julie in CA]

There seems to be a presumption that Christian science materials will teach only a Christian perspective. Really good science materials will seek to present a variety of theories, as well as explaining why each one may or may not be true. Doesn't so much matter to me if the materials are "Christian" or "secular" as long as more than one perspective is presented and explained.

[Pretty in Pink]

We are Christian and this year I am choosing to drop Apologia in favor of a secular science program. We are not young earth creationists. While I enjoy covering all sides of the young earth/old earth/evolution debate I don't enjoy correcting my teaching materials. Over the last year I began finding more and more disagreeable statements asserted as fact in my Apologia book (this is the Zoology III book, an elementary text). The other elementary books were not this way.

 

Anyway, I figure it's easier to take a curriculum with which I actually agree to begin with and then round it out with the young earth teachings rather than the other way around. It's a shame because we really did enjoy the approach of the Apologia books. Oh well.

[Joanne]

Yes, I prefer non Christian centered science curriculum. However, my reasoning isn't that they will be exposed to it "anyway" but that I find Creation based science to be inaccurate and substandard.

 

I *am* a Christian, but I am not a literal 7 day, young earth creationist.

 

I believe God created the science that exists.

[lllll]

..

[Carol in Cal.]

I prayerfully considered the options, and studied Apologia General Science a great deal, having attended a conference with the avowed intention of buying it or Rainbow, and probably Apologia. I felt checked from buying Apologia and Rainbow was not available for study or purchase.

 

I prayed some more and decided on Science Explorer for 7th and 8th grades. This is on the same theory as you--I want to be there talking about it when my DD first understands how pervasive evolutionary theory is, and I want her to know that the fact that I don't accept it is not because I have not looked thoroughly at the evidence, but rather because I have considered it carefully and don't believe that it holds up.

 

I am a young earth creationist, and I also want my DD to learn what mainstream science teaches.

 

Having said that, I have enjoyed using some of the Tiner books with her at an earlier age (history of science, with a Christian bent), and studying some standalone anti-evolution books with her as well.

[simka2]

This is probly what I am struggling the most with apologia right now! But I do like a lot of apologia as well. I will probly alternate curriculums for awhile...apologia, then something secular.

 

right now my concern is that secular "goes out of it's way" to seperate out religous belifes effects on scientific thought...and religious based texts "go out of their way" to incorporate them.

 

So I will just have to balance this out :)

[Carol in Cal.]

If I were homeschooling high school I would probably go back to Apologia. There are local coops around here that support the labs, and I don't think that I could easily teach a standard text and do the labs at home for all of physics, biology, and chemistry, let alone some advanced or alternate fourth year science study. That's more a choice based on expediency and lack of trust in the woefully underfunded community college system than on any true conviction that Apologia would be the best choice. But DD will attend a brick and mortar high school, and so this is moot for us.

[LittleIzumi]

Yes, I prefer non Christian centered science curriculum. However, my reasoning isn't that they will be exposed to it "anyway" but that I find Creation based science to be inaccurate and substandard.

 

I *am* a Christian, but I am not a literal 7 day, young earth creationist.

 

I believe God created the science that exists.

 

 

Yes, this :)

[kiana]

This is an anecdote -- not data:P

 

My friend who became an atheist in university told me once, while at the bar: "They told me that if you didn't believe in the literal truth of Genesis, you might as well not believe in anything at all, because it invalidated the whole Bible."

 

When he decided (no flames, please -- his decision) that it wasn't literally true, well ... he didn't believe in anything at all.

[Kissy]

I think that depends on what you believe. We are Christian and big believers but I do not use "Christian" science curriculum because it is all young earth and we are not. I think a lot of people fall away from God in college and it has nothing to do with science or classes. It can be peers too. I think kids should be exposed to different theories. My son is well aware of young earth beliefs as well as our own so I don't think science will be an issue in college for him. Unfortunately I can't say he won't turn away from some other issues though. My great grandmother used to always say that if you start your kids believing they will always come back. So far for everything I have ever seen in my life this has been true.

[Crimson Wife]

I would like to use a Christian science text that is strong on the science and does not have a YEC POV. However, AFAIK there isn't one available at the present time. I've heard that the BioLogos Foundation is working on one & I look forward to seeing what they come up with.

[mcconnellboys]

I agree and want plenty of time to discuss science topics with my children as they grow up. I have never selected Christian science curricula for use.

[Veritaserum]

Yes, I prefer non Christian centered science curriculum. However, my reasoning isn't that they will be exposed to it "anyway" but that I find Creation based science to be inaccurate and substandard.

 

I *am* a Christian, but I am not a literal 7 day, young earth creationist.

 

I believe God created the science that exists.

 

:iagree: It's a false dichotomy for someone to say that people must choose between science and God. I believe in evolution and God. :)

[creekland]

We use Apologia as I find it to be superior to other things I've looked at for a high school level for Bio and Chem. My kids often tutor their ps peers - esp in Chem. For Bio though, we also have Glencoe so my boys can see both points of view. Not much comes up in the Chem book if I recall correctly. We supplement that with Teaching Company lectures, but not much comes up there regarding the age of the earth, etc, either.

 

I also don't recall anything in Physics, but my son did that one solely on his own (I graded). The Physics book is what I would consider Physics "light" but we only did the first book and a "light" course is exactly what I wanted for that son.

 

As for personal beliefs, I believe God did it and it doesn't matter if he did it quickly over a short period of time or used evolution. My boys know both theories and pros and cons of each. Which specific way they choose to believe is up to them. My main issue is that they know the theories out there and why/how each is supported scientifically.

[Mrs Mungo]

Yes, I prefer non Christian centered science curriculum. However, my reasoning isn't that they will be exposed to it "anyway" but that I find Creation based science to be inaccurate and substandard.

 

I *am* a Christian, but I am not a literal 7 day, young earth creationist.

 

I believe God created the science that exists.

 

:iagree:

 

eta: I will go a bit further and add that my dd is doing science through a state university's online high school. I chose it specifically so that any colleges to which she applies will know she has an appropriate science background.

Edited June 12, 2010 by Mrs Mungo

[BikeBookBread]

Check out this blog -- you might find what you are looking for.

 

ETA: Disclaimer - they do have some Apologia recommendations as well as stuff from other Christian and religious sources...the author also indicates that no curriculum is perfect. I remember her posting once she would rather teach from a textbook that had sound science and was completely atheistic than a poor-science Christian text. You can always explain the lack of belief. It is much harder to "undo" poor scientific methodology and inaccuracies. End Edit.

 

We are also Christians, but not YE creationists. We believe in an ancient universe that God made supernaturally and personally. Our girls are still very young, but we have already thought about this subject a lot. We are not averse to teaching evolution or secular models alongside with an ancient-universe model of creation and cosmology. We feel our girls will need to know all of the points of view.

Edited June 13, 2010 by BikeBookBread
fixed link...

[Caitilin]

Check out this blog -- you might find what you are looking for. We are also Christians, but not YE creationists. We believe in an ancient universe that God made supernaturally and personally. Our girls are still very young, but we have already thought about this subject a lot. We are not averse to teaching evolution or secular models alongside with an ancient-universe model of creation and cosmology. We feel our girls will need to know all of the points of view.

 

BBB, your link isn't connected to the right thing--it's sending me to Black Beauty on Netflix. :) I would love to see the blog link, though...

[Wayfaring Stranger]

This is an anecdote -- not data:P

 

My friend who became an atheist in university told me once, while at the bar: "They told me that if you didn't believe in the literal truth of Genesis, you might as well not believe in anything at all, because it invalidated the whole Bible."

 

When he decided (no flames, please -- his decision) that it wasn't literally true, well ... he didn't believe in anything at all.

 

:banghead:

 

My dad (who is a pastor) told me he tried to never teach me anything that I would have to unlearn. We do not use a christian science curriculum.

[BikeBookBread]

BBB, your link isn't connected to the right thing--it's sending me to Black Beauty on Netflix. :) I would love to see the blog link, though...

 

that is so weird... Here you go. On the top of the page there are links to curricula for different age-groups.

[WishboneDawn]

Another Christian here who won't touch Christian homeschool science materials. I'm simply not a creationist and have no wish to have my kids have to use creationist materials.

 

It's not simply a matter of what I see as bad science either. The Christianity in many Christian homeschooling programs often doesn't reflect my church or faith at all. So it's usless to me for science AND religion.

[usetoschool]

We avoid christian based science if we can. We have used Apologia (not elementary, those were just way too overwhelmingly, beat you over the head religious) but just skip a lot of it. Even though we have been homeschooling a long time I am here looking for something better for my last child because I am tired of being told every page that God made birds and birds have wings and isn't it great that God made wings so birds can fly...blah, blah, blah. I already know and love God and the universe He created and don't need my science text book to remind me every. single. page. If I want to teach religion I won't be using someone else's religion presented through a textbook to do it. I just want some serious, rigorous science, presented straight up and unadulterated. (So far we love the new MPH science.)

[PentecostalMom]

BBB, your link isn't connected to the right thing--it's sending me to Black Beauty on Netflix. :) I would love to see the blog link, though...

 

Link worked fine for me! :)

[Hunter's Moon]

When my parents and I finally settled on homeschooling, I didn't think too much about whether we would use secular or Christian. At first, we chose Apologia. But over time, I began thinking to myself: How can Apologia teach me the "theories" of science in its entirety when they will also be defending Christianity? I know I am premature in my judgements about Apologia since I never used it, or even looked through it, but I just don't see how I can be taught science correctly in that way.

 

I don't believe learning the "theories" of science will interfere with my Christian beliefs because science is, as I stated before, a collection of theories, just like religion. I know not everyone will agree with me, but that is my insight into it.

 

Many things make sense to me in science that don't make sense to me from the Bible, and vice-versa.

[Guest Katia]

When my parents and I finally settled on homeschooling, I didn't think too much about whether we would use secular or Christian. At first, we chose Apologia. But over time, I began thinking to myself: How can Apologia teach me the "theories" of science in its entirety when they will also be defending Christianity? I know I am premature in my judgements about Apologia since I never used it, or even looked through it, but I just don't see how I can be taught science correctly in that way.

 

I don't believe learning the "theories" of science will interfere with my Christian beliefs because science is, as I stated before, a collection of theories, just like religion. I know not everyone will agree with me, but that is my insight into it.

 

Many things make sense to me in science that don't make sense to me from the Bible, and vice-versa.

 

Hmm. My dds used Apologia in the jr. high and high school years, and the only time we ever saw it mention Christianity was in biology when it talked about evolution; and then it tried to give both sides equal time. The high school levels of Apologia are all about science; not Christianity.

 

I never used Apologia in the elementary years, so I can't comment on that. We used a Christian program as a spine, and then added in a bunch of books and videos from the library. Sort of the best of both worlds that way.

 

And I agree with which ever poster it was that said college kids don't usually walk away from their faith because of science classes. In my dd's case, it was because of the way 'Christian' homeschool parents treated her. Her reasoning was that if that is the way Christians outside of our family act, Christians that are supposed to be supporting her/us as homeschoolers, then she doesn't want any part of Christianity.

 

So, note to all you homeschool parents that post here: be careful how you treat other homeschool kids. You could end up wearing that millstone......

[jld]

We use Apologia high school science books because they seem to get the basics covered and are able to be done without parental help. And dd likes them. She just leaves the religious, environmental, or health commentary at the door.

 

Maybe if I were more familiar with the different hs sci curricula available, or were able to help in some way, we would choose a different program. When she has finished all the Apologia courses, we'll probably get some of the books I see mentioned on the hs board, like Zumdahl, Campbell, and others, and have dd read through them and focus on the areas they cover that Apologia doesn't.

[asta]

And I agree with which ever poster it was that said college kids don't usually walk away from their faith because of science classes. In my dd's case, it was because of the way 'Christian' homeschool parents treated her. Her reasoning was that if that is the way Christians outside of our family act, Christians that are supposed to be supporting her/us as homeschoolers, then she doesn't want any part of Christianity.

 

So, note to all you homeschool parents that post here: be careful how you treat other homeschool kids. You could end up wearing that millstone......

 

This is precisely the reason I won't attend the local hs group. They are exclusionary, backstabbing, and have a "holier than thou" attitude.

 

I think if they actually came face to face with their bumperstickers, they'd be in for a real shock.

 

Millstone indeed.

 

 

a

[butterflymommy]

This is an issue we have wrestled with over the years.... given the fact that so much HS science material is creationist, it was difficult to avoid, not that we necessarily wanted to avoid it. My (secular) mum took one look at an apologia book a few years ago and gave me a hateful look I will never forget (she is very critical and unsupportive of HSing in general...).

 

Anyway, long story short is we do use a creationist science course because that is what is included in our Seton curriculum. However I don't keep mainstream science from them-- they watch and read plenty of mainstream material. Generally I will let them make up their own minds on this one but I always emphasize to them that, in my view, a belief in creationism is not a prerequisite for belief and faith in god.

[creekland]

Hmm. My dds used Apologia in the jr. high and high school years, and the only time we ever saw it mention Christianity was in biology when it talked about evolution; and then it tried to give both sides equal time. The high school levels of Apologia are all about science; not Christianity.

 

I never used Apologia in the elementary years, so I can't comment on that. We used a Christian program as a spine, and then added in a bunch of books and videos from the library. Sort of the best of both worlds that way.

 

 

This has been my experience too - almost totally with the high school books and absolutely none with the elementary - and it surprises me when I read how much Christianity others think is in there. Either they want absolutely none (their right/choice) or they haven't looked at them in person. If the elementary books are different (which it seems they are, but I'm going on hearsay), then people need to realize the two levels are different.

 

I have absolutely no problems with the level of Christianity in high school Apologia. Yes, there are areas we disagree with (e.g. we're more environmental), but I can say the same about pretty much any book or text. Those spots lead to discussions - sometimes. Since my boys have already been raised as caretakers of our planet, many times they don't even mention the differences. We've definitely already talked about how one can read or study something, but have their own opinions based on things they feel or have learned elsewhere. If we hadn't, I shudder to think what WILL go on when they reach college or the workplace! Actually, mine can go to grandma's house and find people that believe differently than we do (one set is VERY racist, the other rather liberal - we are anti-racism and more conservative/libertarian). They can still listen politely and go away believing what they feel is right.

[Tidbits of Learning]

We are Christian and this year I am choosing to drop Apologia in favor of a secular science program. We are not young earth creationists. While I enjoy covering all sides of the young earth/old earth/evolution debate I don't enjoy correcting my teaching materials. Over the last year I began finding more and more disagreeable statements asserted as fact in my Apologia book (this is the Zoology III book, an elementary text). The other elementary books were not this way.

 

Anyway, I figure it's easier to take a curriculum with which I actually agree to begin with and then round it out with the young earth teachings rather than the other way around. It's a shame because we really did enjoy the approach of the Apologia books. Oh well.

 

We are also not young earth and I was hesitant to get the Apologia books b/c of this but they look so good and my dc are into all of it. My oldest wants to become a zoologist. We are planning to do the zoology I book this year. I had figured I could edit it and there couldn't be that much young earth in it over birds. Am I wrong?

[Parrothead]

Yes, I prefer non Christian centered science curriculum. However, my reasoning isn't that they will be exposed to it "anyway" but that I find Creation based science to be inaccurate and substandard.

 

I *am* a Christian, but I am not a literal 7 day, young earth creationist.

 

I believe God created the science that exists.

:iagree:What Joanne said.

[Heather in Neverland]

I feel caught in the middle. The secular textbooks go so far out of their way to remove an hint of creation or intelligent design but many christian texts do not adequately address anything other than creationism. So what's a mom to do? When trying to choose between the devil and the deep blue sea we chose to err on the side of christian and are using apologia materials but supplementing with secular texts.

[Pretty in Pink]

We are also not young earth and I was hesitant to get the Apologia books b/c of this but they look so good and my dc are into all of it. My oldest wants to become a zoologist. We are planning to do the zoology I book this year. I had figured I could edit it and there couldn't be that much young earth in it over birds. Am I wrong?

 

'Young Earth' is mentioned throughout the books. It's not on every single page and, really, that's not my issue with the books. If you are planning to read aloud and you just adore the books then you could edit it out; or, you could just read and discuss the YE information with your students.

 

My problem is when 'creation science' is presented as fact. On p. 213 of the Zoology III text she references a T rex fossil that was recovered in Montana, flesh intact. She says, "...this fossil shows every indication of being only a few thousand years old (at most). This fits with the idea that dinosaurs and people lived at the same time." She gives no more detail than this. A quick google search reveals that this tissue was recovered from the interior of femur that was accidentally broken in transit and that subsequent testing was unable to determine if the material was even indeed tissue at all.

 

Her ice age coverage (pp. 136-137) is abysmal. She asserts that there was only one ice age and that it occurred a few thousand years ago. Again, she gives no attention to alternate ice age theories other than to say that even scientists who don't support the biblical flood account, "...think that many ice ages existed in the past." Then she says that the proposed causes of such ice ages remains a "complete mystery." Not exactly a balanced presentation.

 

She asserts that dinosaurs walked with man, were taken onto the ark with Noah, and eventually hunted into extinction (p. 226). Her references to other theories is summed in statements that sound like (my paraphrase), "...not everyone agrees, but here's why they are wrong."

 

The author devotes four pages to explaining why humans cannot be related to other primates, at one point stating, "When living things are very different from one another, there is simply no waythat they can be related." She says that evolution, "...sounds silly..."

 

Anyway, I could go on. Apologia materials are unabashedly YE, which is fine. It's not as if they are being misrepresented by the publisher in that regard.

[PinkInTheBlue]

The majority of you referring to the elementary levels? I've gotten the impression elementary vs. high school is very different. I dropped the elementary levels due to what you all are discussing. I haven't seen it yet but got the impression high school was quite different. Yes? No? Thanks!

[Pretty in Pink]

Jessica,

 

Yes, I only have experience with the elementary levels. I have heard that the higher levels are different, though I am loathe to try them because of my experience.

[Entropymama]

I think the real question here isn't with science in general, but with biology. We've only used secular curriculum thus far for science, but I don't think there would have been any use inserting Christianity into a chemistry or physics book anyway. It's easy enough to make a comment like "Wow, I'm glad God thought of gravity" and make it Christian for my kids.

 

When it comes to biology, and especially evolution/creationism, my plan is to use both secular and Christian materials in jr. high and high school. Give me the most secular text out there, completely tilted toward evolution, and the strongest YE Christian text as well. We'll read both and compare. I am a YE creationist, but I know enough to realize that my little brain just might be missing something and since there's no way to be SURE, I don't mind if my kids agree with me, or decide God used evolution, or something in between. Discussion is key.

[Carol in Cal.]

I think the real question here isn't with science in general, but with biology. We've only used secular curriculum thus far for science, but I don't think there would have been any use inserting Christianity into a chemistry or physics book anyway.

 

When it comes to biology, and especially evolution/creationism, my plan is to use both secular and Christian materials in jr. high and high school.

 

Biology, botany, marine biology, earth science, geology, and archeology would all be different.

 

I found that up to middle school it was easy to just avoid the whole issue, but at the middle school level I really had to decide which way to go.

[Embassy]

Biology, botany, marine biology, earth science, geology, and archeology would all be different.

.

 

Astronomy is a big one too.

[Nojo317]

I can't imagine studying science without the Creator being involved in that study! What about using world-view christian science materials? These would offer an alternative to a strictly christian outlook on science and prepares kids to understand why they believe what they believe and to defend it intelligently. I wouldn't dream of sending my kids out "into the world" without that base of knowledge, because there are going to be plenty of professors, students, and co-workers who will question them.

[Lizzie in Ma]

Hmm.

And I agree with which ever poster it was that said college kids don't usually walk away from their faith because of science classes. In my dd's case, it was because of the way 'Christian' homeschool parents treated her. Her reasoning was that if that is the way Christians outside of our family act, Christians that are supposed to be supporting her/us as homeschoolers, then she doesn't want any part of Christianity.

 

So, note to all you homeschool parents that post here: be careful how you treat other homeschool kids. You could end up wearing that millstone......

 

((Katia)) I am so sorry that happened to your daughter. Sadly there are a great many people who call themselves Christians that don't practice what Jesus taught.

All too often it is fellow "Christians" who think they are better or superior and judge folks and use hurtful, callous words to our children.

Makes me NUTS and gives us all a bad name.

[Food4Thought]

There seems to be a presumption that Christian science materials will teach only a Christian perspective. Really good science materials will seek to present a variety of theories, as well as explaining why each one may or may not be true. Doesn't so much matter to me if the materials are "Christian" or "secular" as long as more than one perspective is presented and explained.

 

:iagree: This is the best way to explain my thoughts. I consider myself "anti-agenda" and that goes for all sides. I want the Truth. I don't want evolutionary biologists skewing the evidence against creationism, and I don't want Christians skewing the evidence in favor of Young Earth Creationism.

 

I use mainly secular curriculum, but we spend a lot of time talking about the difference between "knowledge" and "belief." When we discuss theories, it's easy to talk about whether something *is* true or whether it *might be* true.

[nmoira]

 

The secular textbooks go so far out of their way to remove an hint of creation or intelligent design

So the secular textbooks go out of their way to be secular? :tongue_smilie:

[WishboneDawn]

I feel caught in the middle. The secular textbooks go so far out of their way to remove an hint of creation or intelligent design...

 

Because both of those ideas are, to mainstream science, completely unscientific. That's not to say they're false or untrue but that the idea of a creator is beyond science. Science can only deal with the natural world and what we can observe and measure with our senses. A creator, ideas about intelligent design, those are supernatural, beyond the reach of a measuring stick, telescope or geiger counter.

 

To me, this frustration with the science in secular texts among some Christians is, to me, like being frustrated because a thermometer can't tell you your bust measurement. Well of course it can't. It's the wrong tool.

 

I'd go as far as to suggest that what's in ID and creationist texts is actually closer to Natural Philosophy then modern science.

Edited June 14, 2010 by WishboneDawn

[Caitilin]

Because both of those ideas are, to mainstream science, completely unscientific. That's not to say they're false or untrue but that the idea of a creator is beyond science. Science can only deal with the natural world and what we can observe and measure with our senses. A creator, ideas about intelligent design, those are supernatural, beyond the reach of a measuring stick, telescope or geiger counter.

 

To me, this frustration with the science in secular texts among some Christians is, to me, like being frustrated because a thermometer can't tell you your bust measurement. Well of course it can't. It's the wrong tool.

 

I'd go as far as to suggest that what's in ID and creationist texts is actually closer to Natural Philosophy then modern science.

 

:iagree:with this completely, but particularly like the part in bold. Thanks!

[FO4UR]

To me, this frustration with the science in secular texts among some Christians is, to me, like being frustrated because a thermometer can't tell you your bust measurement. Well of course it can't. It's the wrong tool.

 

 

 

Interesting thought. Playing along with you, it seems possible that perhaps secular science is built upon defending the thermometer, forgetting what is was they set out to measure in the first place (we know it's ADAMANTLY NOT a bust - OK got that)...which reminds me of the time I bought a classroom thermometer to hang outside on our porch so the kids could see the temps rise and fall...the silly thing read something like 60degrees F when I could FEEL the air was much warmer. It took me a while, but I finally realized that the little read dot at the bottom was not aligned properly. With a faulty starting point, the thermometer was plain wrong no matter what I tried to measure.

 

We all have our own starting points. Some are more popular than others.

[Krissi]

Creationist: Yes

Young Earth: No

Literal 7 days: From what I see in Hebrew, Yes.

All done by the Creator: Yes (so much harder to believe that it just evolved or exploded into being)

Christian Science Curr.: Heck, no. Can't agree with the absolutes given by many Christians concerning science. Isn't that what we can't agree with in the theory of evolution? That the theory has been made fact without scientific proof?:confused:

[asta]

Isn't that what we can't agree with in the theory of evolution? That the theory has been made fact without scientific proof?:confused:

 

I'm not going to rehash it, as we have had flame wars over evolution on this board, but what constitutes a scientific theory and a scientific proof is very different than what constitutes a theologic theory and a theologic proof.

 

One theorem cannot "prove" the other because one is starting from a different set of definitions. Basic logic.

 

Two examples would be Galileo and Einstein for science and Augustine and Kreeft for theology. Completely different definitions, completely different theorems, and therefore completely different proofs. (those four people aren't talking about the same subjects, they are just the first four people who popped into my head)

 

I hope that helps.

 

 

asta

 

 

ps: Evolution has never been made fact: it remains a theorem within the scientific community (according to the scientific definition of theory, which I won't write out here)

Edited June 14, 2010 by asta

[wy_kid_wrangler04]

I can't imagine studying science without the Creator being involved in that study!

 

:iagree::iagree::iagree:

 

((Katia)) I am so sorry that happened to your daughter. Sadly there are a great many people who call themselves Christians that don't practice what Jesus taught.

All too often it is fellow "Christians" who think they are better or superior and judge folks and use hurtful, callous words to our children.

Makes me NUTS and gives us all a bad name.

 

:iagree::iagree::iagree: