What happens after death to those who have had no contact with your faith?

[Laura Corin]

What do you believe will happen after death to those who have had no opportunity to join your faith? The question is absolutely not personal (I've had every opportunity to join a multitude of faiths) but just something I'm curious about.

 

Laura

[Harriet Vane]

This is an emotionally heavy question, and one to which I struggle to respond.

 

Christians debate the exact nature of life after death--I have read quite a range of opinions from stereotypical hell to annihilation of the soul. Thinking of friends or family who are dear to me in any of those scenarios is terribly, terribly painful and frankly, I have not been able to come to an answer that I consider definitive. Personally, I struggle to quantify the post-death reality specifically. The answer that makes the most sense to me is this one:

 

Those who choose not to be with God will not be with God, and being outside of God's presence is the unhappiest state possible.

[Pamela H in Texas]

Laura,

 

JWs believe that the majority of people who have died (or will die before the end of this system), whether JW or not, will have the opportunity to live again, learn about God, and choose life (eternal). Many will still choose not to serve him. They will be choosing everlasting death (non-existence). But almost everyone will have a chance.

 

This is the hope the Bible holds out for the dead as well as those of us who live with their deaths.

 

The scriptures also liken our time to the time of Noah (and a few other key times where people were told exactly what to do to seek refuge from destruction). The people who followed the directions lived. Those who didn't, were destroyed. Those people were adequately warned but chose not to. They chose death. Those who die in the end of this system, also will be just choosing death rather than life. The people who have had to make those choices from Noah through Jerusalem through the end will have made their everlasting choice.

 

But the scriptures describe what Jesus preached and told his people to preach as GOOD news. What is wonderful is that God says he doesn't wish for ANYONE to perish. And he gives ways for EVERYONE to have the chance at life. And the good news also includes how wonderful that life will be under his rulership.

 

Anyway, so those are the two answers to your question:

 

1) those who have died or will die before the end of this system of things will have the chance of resurrection

2) those who die IN the end, will just be dead (as the scriptures say, not conscious of anything, not working or thinking or feeling or doing anything).

Edited March 11, 2010 by 2J5M9K

[MeaganS]

Mormons believe that everyone who ever lived will be resurrected. Whether they go to be with God and Christ or not is up to them. We believe that after you die, everyone gets taught about Christ and has the opportunity to choose whether or not to accept him. It's a very comforting thought for me, because otherwise it just doesn't seem fair that people who had no chance in life would have to have the same consequences as those who reject Christ.

[Momof1plustwins]

Those who choose not to be with God will not be with God, and being outside of God's presence is the unhappiest state possible.

 

Very well said!

[Laura Corin]

Those who choose not to be with God will not be with God, and being outside of God's presence is the unhappiest state possible.

 

What if someone has not had contact with Christianity?

 

Laura

[Moxie]

When we die, God will judge our souls. Only He knows all the factors in someones life well enough to say Heaven, Hell or Purgatory. I think that that is the Catholic view of things.

[Ester Maria]

There are different Jewish opinions on this, since Judaism as a religion isn't so concerned with "that" world as with how to live on THIS one and thus there is no unique dogma, but I think the prevalent stream of thought is that nearly all souls after the death will go through some kind of "purgatory" (only the very righteous go directly to "heaven") and the vast majority of them, after the experience, go to "heaven", only the truly wicked ones don't.

 

Judaism doesn't care to make non-Jews become Jews, on the contrary. There are two sets of "requirements" and "criteria" for fulfilling God's commandments depending on which group you're into, and you can perfectly be a great person and lead an amazing life and end up in "heaven" without ever being a Jew. As a matter of fact, many of you here will burn less than me, given that I'm Jewish AND aware of everything I should be doing based on the criteria imposed to me AND not doing any of it AND raising and influencing more Jews (my kids) not to live the way Jews should live, etc. Even though I'm technically held to a higher standard, it also makes me more accountable if I don't do what I'm supposed to be doing. We have 613 commandments, Gentiles have 7; ours are filled with illogical intricacies, yours are logical and simple. Basically, it's easier for Gentiles to get to "heaven" than for Jews, from Jewish perspective. :D

[Ester Maria]

Only He knows all the factors in someones life well enough to say Heaven, Hell or Purgatory. I think that that is the Catholic view of things.

Didn't they "abandon" Purgatory quite recently? Or was that only limbo? :glare:

[Laura Corin]

Basically, it's easier for Gentiles to get to "heaven" than for Jews, from Jewish perspective. :D

 

My Jewish paternal grandmother would have enjoyed the paradox that by only having sons, none of whom married Jews, she had improved her descendants' chances.

 

Laura

[Paintedlady]

This is an emotionally heavy question, and one to which I struggle to respond.

 

Christians debate the exact nature of life after death--I have read quite a range of opinions from stereotypical hell to annihilation of the soul. Thinking of friends or family who are dear to me in any of those scenarios is terribly, terribly painful and frankly, I have not been able to come to an answer that I consider definitive. Personally, I struggle to quantify the post-death reality specifically. The answer that makes the most sense to me is this one:

 

Those who choose not to be with God will not be with God, and being outside of God's presence is the unhappiest state possible.

 

:iagree: You said exactly what I was going to. Wish I could change the smiley face on that guy with the sign to a frown and then it would more appropriately match my feelings.

[Moxie]

Didn't they "abandon" Purgatory quite recently? Or was that only limbo? :glare:

 

Don't quote me on this but I think it was just limbo that was done away with (limbo was how theologians explained what would happen to an infant that died before Baptism; it was misunderstood by people as being a type of hell but it really was just not fully in the presence of God). Purgatory is still very real.

[6packofun]

God is just. He knows who has truly never, ever heard of Himself or His Son and will judge accordingly. :)

 

If you read Romans 1, you'll see that God says that human beings *know* that He exists because of His creation and that this knowledge, even if we cannot put a name to it or hear about Jesus Christ, is within us. I think God will judge according to that knowledge as well. However, it's a difficult thing to ponder when so many people groups who may or may not have heard of Christ and yet believe in a "higher power" and/or acknowledge God create religious systems that have aspects that go against what God would desire or His very character which, according to Romans 1, is revealed in His creation (all of nature including US--but it warns of worshipping the creation rather than the Creator which is where we get into trouble!).

 

Again, God is just! LOL I hold to that truth.

[Cheryl in NM]

What do you believe will happen after death to those who have had no opportunity to join your faith? The question is absolutely not personal (I've had every opportunity to join a multitude of faiths) but just something I'm curious about.

 

Laura

 

I believe different religions are how we humans cope with a God's love that we can't understand. My personal beliefs are that the Bible tells us to go to heaven we must be baptized and believe that Christ died on the cross for our sins. It's that simple; it doesn't matter what religion someone is. But, I also acknowledge that there is much I don't understand. I know there are many wonderful people who don't believe as I do and I find it hard to comprehend that a loving God would close the door on them. So, there must be something, in my limited and finite wisdom, that I don't understand. I trust that God will take care everyone in the manner to which he sees fit and I worry only about my salvation. I don't try to convert anyone, but if I see someone hurting I will offer to pray for them and share my faith if requested.

 

ETA: Oops, forgot to answer the main question! I believe that we don't understand God's concept of time. Our lifetimes are mere seconds to him, but many years to us. So, in Revelation when it talks about the dead raising instantaneously, I believe that instantaneous to God is not instantaneous to us. Again, I do not worry about it. I have faith that God will take care of things as He sees fit.

Edited March 11, 2010 by Cheryl in NM

[Teachin'Mine]

Our God is a just God, but He's also infinitely merciful and loving. He judges each one of us accordingly. How could He love one of His children any less just because they didn't learn about Him? At the time of their death, they will meet Him face to face. They will then have the opportunity to know and love Him, or to reject His love. Judgment is up to God alone, but my understanding is that we make a decision as well.

 

Great question!

[Night Elf]

I asked my sister about this a couple of years ago. She's Christian but I can't remember what denomination. Neither of her children nor her husband had been saved at that point and I have no clue as to their religious beliefs right now either. She said she wasn't going to worry or stress over their relationship or non-relationship with God because it wasn't in her hands anyway. She believes that God calls people to Him and either they answer or they don't. She doesn't believe she'll have any thought of them after she dies because being close to God is Heaven and there will be no regrets or mourning.

 

I like her beliefs. She doesn't feel the need to pressure non-believers into being saved. Either your heart turns toward Him or it doesn't. No amount of talking the talk will get you saved. People can seem one way on the outside, but feel or not feel for that matter something completely different. God sees and knows. I can talk religion with her and I can't do that with all Christians. She sees people as souls not numbers.

[Renee in NC]

Didn't they "abandon" Purgatory quite recently? Or was that only limbo? :glare:

 

No, purgatory has not been abandoned and "limbo" is not *official* Roman Catholic doctrine.

[Ester Maria]

My Jewish paternal grandmother would have enjoyed the paradox that by only having sons, none of whom married Jews, she had improved her descendants' chances.

:lol:

Indeed.

 

There's also another interesting paradox, it's that you can't really be held accountable that much if you don't know the rules; the phenomenon of a "kidnapped child", as they say, a Jew brought up as a Gentile. They're also not accountable until and if they learn more (they can at most be accountable for not learning if they knew they were Jews, but they can't be held responsible for not holding specific commandments).

 

(Of course, theologically it "evens out" in the end since technically not all "positions" in "heaven" are necessarily equally good (somebody once compared it to going to an opera - we all go there, but we get different seats :D); some souls can connect to God more and some can less, and so on.)

[Ester Maria]

No, purgatory has not been abandoned and "limbo" is not *official* Roman Catholic doctrine.

Thank you. :)

I know I've read something about the limbo controversy a few years ago, but I didn't know what exactly it was since I don't follow Catholic press. Interesting, I was never sure if it was an official doctrine or no, but I was more inclined to think it was, so this is surprising to me.

[mom2tbcnm]

I believe John 14:6 that no one comes to the father but through Christ. When you die you will be judged as to whether you "loved the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength" and 'believed in the Lord Jesus". If you do, you will go to heaven where "the streets of the city were pure gold" to spend eternity in worship with God. If you do not, you will go where the "worm will not die and the fire is not quenched" eternally separated from God. No, this doesn't include children and those minds are like that of children, but it does include everyone else. This is why I do believe in the commandment "Go into all the world and preach the Good News to all creation".

 

It's really interesting to hear everyone's beliefs!

Have a great day,

Katty

[Ester Maria]

If you do not, you will go where the "worm will not die and the fire is not quenched" eternally separated from God.

How do you interact on a daily basis with people for whom you know that they will necessarily end up in such a place, despite the fact that many of them are good and warm persons who have influenced others and the world a lot more positively than some believers, and that God is still okay with sending them to mingle with worms and fire? :confused:

 

I can understand the views in which all souls will be taught the truth and given the chance after the death, or the views in which the good people will somehow have it good in the end, even if not the "best seats in heaven", even if some purgatories are involved, but despite the fact they didn't believe (didn't have the chance or didn't make that choice, but still made positive contributions to their surroundings) that they will be okay, because they sound "just" to me; but I can't fathom the idea of a "just" God who rewards a priori an ideological position rather than acts, i.e. who by default sends the members of his "party" to one place, and the ideological opponents to the other place. I mean, if your ideological opponents technically stick to your rules (are good, loving, caring, forgiving, working on themselves, adding to the happiness and justice in this world, etc.), only without the dogma and parts specifically dictated by the dogma (prayers, etc.), why "punish" them for not having realized the truth, or for being intellectually honest with themselves and not accepting what they could not accept, for having had lesser "spiritual intelligence" (in lack of better expression)?

 

I can't help it, I really have a problem with such views; not so much with such views themselves as with the people who hold them and who are real, everyday people in my life. I have a problem with the fact that thousands upon thousands of people I meet in my everyday life in this country are seriously convinced that other thousands upon thousands of people they meet every day, that are real for them, are going to have some kind of eternity in agony without hope, and, even more so, that they're not only okay with such an idea, but that they consider it "just" and are passing it onto their children in such forms.

 

Don't get me wrong - I'm all for intellectual honesty, to its fullest. If that's what's your dogma, sure, let's call things their real names and openly say, "yes, everyone who isn't ideologically with us IS, indeed, going to have such an eternity, from our point of view". I'm not calling for deradicalization of such views, or for revising the dogmas, and I'm not touching into what's holy for you, just voicing my stance on this - that such views and such positions have as much to do with "humanity" and "love" and "acceptance" as certain ideological movements from the past century had. It just sounds terribly like "who's not with us - is against us". :glare:

[LittleIzumi]

Another LDS/Mormon here! To quote one of the official Church sites (www.mormon.org):

 

Heavenly Father knew that many of His children would never have an opportunity to learn about Jesus Christ during their lives and that others would choose not to follow Him. Because He loves His children and is just, God provided a way for those in the spirit world to learn about His plan, have faith in Jesus Christ, and repent. Those who choose to accept and follow Jesus Christ will have peace and rest.

Sometime after your death, your spirit and your body will be reunited—never to be separated again. This reuniting is called resurrection, and it was made possible by the death and Resurrection of Jesus Christ. You will remain in the spirit world until you are resurrected.

 

 

Me again. We believe they are taught after death and have the opportunity to accept the gospel then. This is why we have temples--to do vicarious work for the dead so those who *choose* to accept the gospel can have their baptism & other ordinances already done physically, as it was commanded that everyone be baptized. We do the work for our own relatives currently (not supposed to pick names out historical records, for example, unless they're related to you), and we are very big into genealogy for that among other reasons. We also believe people will be evaluated based on what they did with the knowledge they did have, with how they behaved and tried to follow whatever beliefs they knew. (Very quick summary, lol.)

Edited March 11, 2010 by LittleIzumi

[Harriet Vane]

What if someone has not had contact with Christianity?

 

Laura

 

For this, I rest in the knowledge that God has given each of us a consciousness that he is. Those that seek him, find him. I believe that God is just and fair, and honors those whose spirit seeks him. Romans 1 makes reference to this.

[Merry]

I look at it too. It does bother me to see my family and friends with the thought that they probably will end up separated forever from God if they reject him ultimately. It must bother God much more, I'm sure.

[5kidsforME]

How do you interact on a daily basis with people for whom you know that they will necessarily end up in such a place, despite the fact that many of them are good and warm persons who have influenced others and the world a lot more positively than some believers, and that God is still okay with sending them to mingle with worms and fire? :confused:

 

I can understand the views in which all souls will be taught the truth and given the chance after the death, or the views in which the good people will somehow have it good in the end, even if not the "best seats in heaven", even if some purgatories are involved, but despite the fact they didn't believe (didn't have the chance or didn't make that choice, but still made positive contributions to their surroundings) that they will be okay, because they sound "just" to me; but I can't fathom the idea of a "just" God who rewards a priori an ideological position rather than acts, i.e. who by default sends the members of his "party" to one place, and the ideological opponents to the other place. I mean, if your ideological opponents technically stick to your rules (are good, loving, caring, forgiving, working on themselves, adding to the happiness and justice in this world, etc.), only without the dogma and parts specifically dictated by the dogma (prayers, etc.), why "punish" them for not having realized the truth, or for being intellectually honest with themselves and not accepting what they could not accept, for having had lesser "spiritual intelligence" (in lack of better expression)?

 

I can't help it, I really have a problem with such views; not so much with such views themselves as with the people who hold them and who are real, everyday people in my life. I have a problem with the fact that thousands upon thousands of people I meet in my everyday life in this country are seriously convinced that other thousands upon thousands of people they meet every day, that are real for them, are going to have some kind of eternity in agony without hope, and, even more so, that they're not only okay with such an idea, but that they consider it "just" and are passing it onto their children in such forms.

 

Don't get me wrong - I'm all for intellectual honesty, to its fullest. If that's what's your dogma, sure, let's call things their real names and openly say, "yes, everyone who isn't ideologically with us IS, indeed, going to have such an eternity, from our point of view". I'm not calling for deradicalization of such views, or for revising the dogmas, and I'm not touching into what's holy for you, just voicing my stance on this - that such views and such positions have as much to do with "humanity" and "love" and "acceptance" as certain ideological movements from the past century had. It just sounds terribly like "who's not with us - is against us". :glare:

 

Jesus says in Matthew 12:30 30"He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me scatters. 31And so I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. 32Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come

 

So it is true those that are not with Him are against Him. Scripture makes it plainly clear.

 

In many peoples eyes Christians are condemned and mocked if they talk about their beliefs. What you are saying above is how can they believe that? We believe it because it is in the bible.

 

I really like Penn's (from penn and teller) youtube video on this. He is a professed atheist and he gets it why christians feel the need to evangelize. I can't find it of course but it was interesting from an atheists point of view.

[KidsHappen]

I believe the same thing happens to all souls at death regardless of what religion they belonged to in this life, specifically that they will become one with all other souls not currently occupying bodies.

[RoughCollie]

I figure there is no way for me to know what happens.

[Parrothead]

I believe some people will be surprised. Most likely there is only one group of Christians that have it right. The Christians that do not belong to the denomination that is correct will be surprised.

 

For the last hunter/gatherer tribe on Earth who has never heard of Jesus, I believe that God will make provisions for them and others like them. I can't imagine that they would have to stand before Jesus and profess faith in Him, if they have never heard of Him.

[milovany]

I think I'll just quote rather than attempt to explain it myself -- this is from an article called "What about the Non-Orthodox?" by Fr. David Tillman (which can be found in its entirety here).

 

 

 

It is simply not for us to speculate about how any individual or group we encounter today will fare on Judgment Day. Orthodox Christians who have forgotten this have caused terrible damage to many. We must surely provoke God’s wrath and place our souls in peril when we thus usurp the prerogatives of the Righteous Judge of the Universe. ...

 

 

We are simply not given all the facts regarding the mystery of even our own salvation, much less anyone else’s. On one level, we are only given those facts that we need to know in order to be saved. And, yes, we are only saved in the Church. Saint Paul teaches, “There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you allâ€(Ephesians 4:4–6). This can never be an excuse for arrogance or presumption on the part of Orthodox Christians. It is better to hymn the mystery of the Church in awed silence rather than to say too much, or to behave as though one’s membership in the Church is due to some excellence on one’s own part.

 

 

 

 

I love this about being Orthodox -- learning not to judge the state of any one else's relationship before God, while still knowing that relationship with Christ through His Body (the Church) is the "ark" in which we can best work out our salvation.

[spradlin02]

That's why I'm starting to like the idea of reincarnation. At least I'd get another try. In my experience, I rarely get anything right the first time.

[MelanieM]

I believe that God is in everything and everything is in God. I could no more separate from God than I could separate the salt from the oceans or the stars from the skies. We are all drops in the one great ocean, and I believe death only sharpens our focus and knowing of that truth.

 

I also think there are ways to interprete Christian scripture that are 'bigger' than the context used by many. When looked at from a different lens of what God is and isn't, many passages start to tell a very different story. So when someone quotes scripture and I look at it through my worldview, it often means something very different than what people are intending.

[Ravin]

Well, my religion isn't a universalist one. That is, we don't believe it is the true path for everyone, nor the only religion that is true. It's also, like Judaism, more focused on how you live this life than on what happens in the next one. Heathen concepts of the soul are complex, and there are multiple afterlife possibilities--one may become a guardian spirit for one's family, or go to the hall of one's patron God or Goddess (Valhalla being but one of these), or to Hel's hall (Hel is the Goddess of the underworld), or be reborn, preferably within one's own family lines, or several of these things at once because the soul-body complex has many parts which don't retain cohesion at death. What's more, for many Heathens, notions of the afterlife aren't necessarily literal.

 

In short, we don't know, and we don't especially care. Death isn't seen as something to fear, and it's this life that is important, not what comes after.

[mom2tbcnm]

Here's the Youtube page.

It's actually really good. I think more evangelical Christian-types should watch it.

It explains how I react to the people around me who I know are not "with us" In love, with lots of love. Yes, if you are my friend, you will hear about my salvation- if you know me at all, you'll hear it. That is out of love and obedience to Christ and love for my friend.

I totally respect the opinions of others on this subject, I don't agree, but I can still respect them. I find the subject fascinating.

 

Katty

[KidsHappen]

I believe that God is in everything and everything is in God. I could no more separate from God than I could separate the salt from the oceans or the stars from the skies. We are all drops in the one great ocean, and I believe death only sharpens our focus and knowing of that truth.

 

I also think there are ways to interprete Christian scripture that are 'bigger' than the context used by many. When looked at from a different lens of what God is and isn't, many passages start to tell a very different story. So when someone quotes scripture and I look at it through my worldview, it often means something very different than what people are intending.

 

Wow, this is very similar to my own beliefs. I so rarely see that. It's nice to know that I am not the only one. :001_smile:

[MamaSheep]

Jesus says in Matthew 12:30 30"He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me scatters. 31And so I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. 32Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come

 

So it is true those that are not with Him are against Him. Scripture makes it plainly clear.

 

In many peoples eyes Christians are condemned and mocked if they talk about their beliefs. What you are saying above is how can they believe that? We believe it because it is in the bible.

 

I really like Penn's (from penn and teller) youtube video on this. He is a professed atheist and he gets it why christians feel the need to evangelize. I can't find it of course but it was interesting from an atheists point of view.

 

One thing I have always found interesting about this passage in Matthew (and the similar one in Luke 11) is that they co-exist with other passages such as Mark 9:40 "For he that is not against us is on our part." and Luke 9:50, "And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us."

 

The juxtaposition has given me much food for thought over the years.

[Laura Corin]

For this, I rest in the knowledge that God has given each of us a consciousness that he is. Those that seek him, find him. I believe that God is just and fair, and honors those whose spirit seeks him. Romans 1 makes reference to this.

 

.. can nevertheless know your God? Is that what you mean?

 

Laura

[Crimson Wife]

I believe in salvation through Jesus Christ and that it is up to Him whom He chooses to save. I do believe in "baptism by desire", that Christ may save those who would be baptized if only they had the opportunity to be. God is loving and merciful- why would He deny those of His children the chance for salvation simply because they were not able to hear the Good News?

[Mejane]

I believe that God is in everything and everything is in God. I could no more separate from God than I could separate the salt from the oceans or the stars from the skies. We are all drops in the one great ocean, and I believe death only sharpens our focus and knowing of that truth.

 

 

 

Perfect.

[Ester Maria]

Jesus says in Matthew 12:30 30"He who is not with me is against me [...]

So it is true those that are not with Him are against Him. Scripture makes it plainly clear.

Thank you for the quote; I actually took a copy of NT to see the its context since it's been a while since I read it, and to check the original language and see if it's one of those ambiguous cases in Greek which can be translated in various ways. Basically, you're right, it's very explicit and it doesn't leave much space for "interpretation" - unless it's solved in some "third verse" that I don't know of (I don't even know what are the principles of Christian exegesis, so I'll have to take your word on that it means exactly what it means).

 

I appreciate that your cards are open. I realize it must be hard to admit that the position the God, as outlined in your holy text and as interpreted in your faith or denomination (this is the "disclaimer" for some other texts and denominations), takes with regards to those who don't follow Him is identical to the position Mussolini often outlined in his speeches, for example, and the repercussions of which are known since they happened in this history we witnessed already (and not only in that particular case, it's a very popular idea in the overall flow of history). No, I'm not comparing general ideologies, just pointing to a single, but striking, similarity in the treatment of "political opponents".

 

In many peoples eyes Christians are condemned and mocked if they talk about their beliefs. What you are saying above is how can they believe that? We believe it because it is in the bible.

As far as I'm concerned, I don't mock (those beliefs have a tremendous strength and the ability to influence people, both in a positive and a negative way - and because of the victims of the latter, I find it somewhat inappropriate to degrade the level of seriousness by mocking the phenomenon and not acknowledging their potential power), but I do condemn, morally, certain mindsets and ideologies, regardless of where they're drawn from and how "holy" they are.

 

The belief that an alike ideological position to the "leader"'s alone is enough to claim you deserving of a good life and/or an eternal prize, or that the sole ideological opposition, regardless of the acts of humanity of the individual and their overall being equally good person or better, is enough to claim them worthy of ****ation and some form of destruction (whether physical, in this world; or spiritual and moral in the world to come), and that such a state of things is normal and okay, is an example of a belief I openly condemn.

 

Another example of a belief I openly condemn would be a belief that we should as a society allow open teaching of such ideas and the preaching of what can even be considered as a hate speech of a kind (albeit, I have to admit, adressed to those who don't believe in an attempt to save them from such a destiny - a BIG and important distinction :)), just because those beliefs are "holy" to somebody, and that people holding them should be exempt of the responsibility for holding them and spreading them, because of their supposed "holiness".

I really like Penn's (from penn and teller) youtube video on this. He is a professed atheist and he gets it why christians feel the need to evangelize. I can't find it of course but it was interesting from an atheists point of view.

I'll look it up. Thanks.

 

However, I do understand the Christians' need to evangelize. And honestly, if I were a Christian - i.e. adhering to a text which holds some of the above stated beliefs, and which holds that I can save some people from it - I would probably be adamant in my tries to do it, because I would be convinced I was doing the right thing.

 

And that still wouldn't exempt me of the responsibility, in moral sense, of my beliefs as an adult - the beliefs which ultimately come down to "God is just and many people will suffer eternal ****ation just because they don't believe, and such a system is just". And even though I would try to, as a believer, do my best to save other people, I would still be consciously subscribing to a certain not only to a belief in a certain metaphysical, but also ethical system, and I would have to be able to deal with its implications, and be morally alright with the system and my role in it.

 

I couldn't.

If you can and if your conscience allows you to subscribe to the beliefs as the one presented in your quote, if you see in it something I fail to see - seriously, great for you.

We'll agree that we disagree on the matter I guess. :D

[Harriet Vane]

.. can nevertheless know your God? Is that what you mean?

 

Laura

 

This is a question that I struggle with, and honestly don't even like thinking about much. I have dear, dear friends and family members who do not believe in God.

 

I believe that God holds us responsible for whatever knowledge we have. In other words, if a person has heard the truth of God as it is presented in the Bible, then that person is responsible for their choices to embrace that truth or not.

 

I believe that God is perfectly just and fair. I rest in that knowledge and often choose not to think it through any more than that--I know God will be fair, so I leave it to him.

 

I believe that a person who has never read the Bible can still know the truth of God because God has given each of us an inner consciousness of him (Romans 1). However, I think that without contact with Christianity, it would be quite difficult to seek God in a way that is different from those around you. Difficult, but not impossible.

[Lovedtodeath]

 

It's a very comforting thought for me, because otherwise it just doesn't seem fair that people who had no chance in life would have to have the same consequences as those who reject Christ.

One of God's outstanding qualities is justice, so of course He is not going to do something that is not fair. Jehovah's Witnesses base their beliefs on the scriptures. Here are a few specifics: At death, the soul is concious of nothing at all. (Psalms 146:4, Ecc 9:5,10) There is a hope of a future resurrection for the "righteous and the unrighteous", which indicates those who have not had a chance will also be resurrected. (John 5:28,29; Acts 24:15, John 11:24; 2 Timothy 2:18)

 

Edited March 11, 2010 by Lovedtodeath

[Lovedtodeath]

 

.. can nevertheless know your God? Is that what you mean?

I wouldn't say that. John 17:3 "This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ."

[buddhabelly]

My "religion", Buddhism, teaches reincarnation. Teachings differ as to how long between lives. The more detailed teachings say that what you are doing/thinking in the hour of death makes a huge difference both in the form of your future reincarnation and how fortunate you will be in that realm. There are specific practices one can do. The concept of karma tells us that every thought, word, deed, and especially intention that you have not only has a consequence, but is a cause. It is a cause of future thoughts, actions, etc. (both yours and others) in this life and also has an effect on your future life.

 

Boddhisattvas have made a vow that they will return to this life and help other sentient beings. So even though you do NOT have to be reincarnated if you are fully realized (aware of your true nature, also called "enlightened"), enlightened beings do return because they have compassion for others. So if enlightened beings are living here on earth, they experience it as nirvana because they have perfect view. They do not suffer due to the delusion that we will be happy if we get what we want and avoid things/events we don't want. Clear as mud, eh?

 

Buddhists believe that the above would hold true whether you are a Christian, Buddhist, or an "I'm not sure."

 

Not feeling very eloquent today, so I'll edit if I can say it better later today.

 

Julie

[5kidsforME]

Thank you for the quote; I actually took a copy of NT to see the its context since it's been a while since I read it, and to check the original language and see if it's one of those ambiguous cases in Greek which can be translated in various ways. Basically, you're right, it's very explicit and it doesn't leave much space for "interpretation" - unless it's solved in some "third verse" that I don't know of (I don't even know what are the principles of Christian exegesis, so I'll have to take your word on that it means exactly what it means).

 

I appreciate that your cards are open. I realize it must be hard to admit that the position the God, as outlined in your holy text and as interpreted in your faith or denomination (this is the "disclaimer" for some other texts and denominations), takes with regards to those who don't follow Him is identical to the position Mussolini often outlined in his speeches, for example, and the repercussions of which are known since they happened in this history we witnessed already (and not only in that particular case, it's a very popular idea in the overall flow of history). No, I'm not comparing general ideologies, just pointing to a single, but striking, similarity in the treatment of "political opponents".

 

Everyone has the exact same "chance" at salvation that I did. So no its not hard to admit. You can't compare Mussolini to God so.....you lost me there.

 

As far as I'm concerned, I don't mock (those beliefs have a tremendous strength and the ability to influence people, both in a positive and a negative way - and because of the victims of the latter, I find it somewhat inappropriate to degrade the level of seriousness by mocking the phenomenon and not acknowledging their potential power), but I do condemn, morally, certain mindsets and ideologies, regardless of where they're drawn from and how "holy" they are.

 

The belief that an alike ideological position to the "leader"'s alone is enough to claim you deserving of a good life and/or an eternal prize, or that the sole ideological opposition, regardless of the acts of humanity of the individual and their overall being equally good person or better, is enough to claim them worthy of ****ation and some form of destruction (whether physical, in this world; or spiritual and moral in the world to come), and that such a state of things is normal and okay, is an example of a belief I openly condemn.

 

Another example of a belief I openly condemn would be a belief that we should as a society allow open teaching of such ideas and the preaching of what can even be considered as a hate speech of a kind (albeit, I have to admit, adressed to those who don't believe in an attempt to save them from such a destiny - a BIG and important distinction :)), just because those beliefs are "holy" to somebody, and that people holding them should be exempt of the responsibility for holding them and spreading them, because of their supposed "holiness".

 

So you condemn freedom of religion? :confused: I'm not holy I just have the Holy Spirit in me.

 

I'll look it up. Thanks.

 

However, I do understand the Christians' need to evangelize. And honestly, if I were a Christian - i.e. adhering to a text which holds some of the above stated beliefs, and which holds that I can save some people from it - I would probably be adamant in my tries to do it, because I would be convinced I was doing the right thing.

 

And that still wouldn't exempt me of the responsibility, in moral sense, of my beliefs as an adult - the beliefs which ultimately come down to "God is just and many people will suffer eternal ****ation just because they don't believe, and such a system is just". And even though I would try to, as a believer, do my best to save other people, I would still be consciously subscribing to a certain not only to a belief in a certain metaphysical, but also ethical system, and I would have to be able to deal with its implications, and be morally alright with the system and my role in it.

 

I couldn't.

If you can and if your conscience allows you to subscribe to the beliefs as the one presented in your quote, if you see in it something I fail to see - seriously, great for you.

We'll agree that we disagree on the matter I guess. :D

 

So you are saying that since I believe Christ's teachings and the others that do not believe or follow his teachings and are therefore ****ed, that me believing these things is a Very Bad Thing. Is this correct?

 

And although you could not sleep if you subscribe to these beliefs your glad I can still sleep at night?

 

See the thing is Christians are called to spread the Good News Of Jesus Christ. This is a burden and delight placed on us as soon as we believe. So no, its not always easy. As much as we talk to someone about Christ it is not anything we can say or do to make a person understand and believe we are just the conduit for the Holy Spirit.

 

I don't expect a non believer to like it or even respect our POV. I just would ask that you respect the freedom of religion that the USA affords us.

[Jean in Wisc]

If I believe that there is a being that started this universe, brought it into existence, and created life--you and me, then I might also conceive of that being wanting to have a relationship with us.

 

I can also believe that He wants us to know Him and that He loves us, even if we do not care.

 

According to our beliefs, God created a place that was wonderful. No illness, no bad things that would happen, and we would spend time with him in this wonderful place.

 

But people did not want a relationship with Him. They wanted to do their own thing.

 

The result? He let us go. We now live in a world that is not kept wonderful and good because He has been rejected--we all do whatever we want to do--and even the planet, nature, and the universe is not that perfect place anymore because we took God out of the picture--he allowed us to push Him out.

 

But he did not walk away. He saw that he still loved us and He decided to make it so that we could return to the way it was originally planned--so He came to our world and offered us a way to make it back to the original scenario--it comes after our life here on earth.

 

So why do some get the opportunity to accept this and others not?

 

I believe that this God lives outside of time. He sees us from beginning to end and knows our hearts. He reaches down to offer us his "gift" of the wonderful life--but many will reject that gift. Does he need to offer it to the folks who he knows will never accept it? Is there a way for the people on the other side of the world who have never heard of Him to find this gift? Are those who never hear or never accept it the people who would not want it?

 

Lots of questions. I do not know all the answers.

 

Yes, I believe that many people will not be in what we call heaven. Many people are not interested in living their lives in community with God--accepting his ways and his rules. It is their choice. Does this make God mean and nasty? I don't think so. Does it make Christians intollerant? Some say it does.

 

I do think it explains why some are trying so hard to get others to accept their faith--although I do believe it is good to share the gift (and God asks us to do so), I don't see a need to force it down their throats. He would like it if all people were to take Him up on His offer, but He also knows they will not. I will share what I have discovered about God, but I cannot (nor need not) try to make someone hand themselves over to seeing the world through my God's eyes.

 

Somehow many translate this gift as something that makes them better than others. That is a human reaction--the rich, the talented, the beautiful, and the powerful tend to see themselves as better than others...a human trait, I guess.

 

I would not ever say I have all the answers. I have a lot of questions myself. But this, to me, is the basis of the Christian faith. If you want to accept the offer, all you need to do is to accept. Your choice.

[Rosie_0801]

According to my beliefs, the same thing happens to everyone after they die. And that is... Whatever it is that happens!

 

I'm alive now and that is important. What happens after I'm dead will be important after I'm dead! One challenge at a time, please!

 

Rosie

[hmschooling]

I believe we all are born as sinners and we all deserve hell. So I don't think God has **mned some of us to hell, I do believe that He has saved some of us from it. Salvation is accomplished in God's work alone (John 6:28-29; Phil. 1:29) I whole-heartedly believe that my God (I am a reformed Christian and believe in the doctrines of Grace) is the One True God. I don't believe there are multiple routes to Heaven, but only One. Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." There is but one way, and that is the way I follow. So, for those of us that have been saved, that God has been so gracious and merciful to save, we will have eternal life in Heaven. And those that maintain what we all deserve without God's grace and mercy or to suffer eternal death in hell...in the lake of fire.

For those that God has predestined to save from such an eternity, they will hear. He has all things planned, and tells us to spread His Word to all nations. We are His tools to further the kingdom...through our words and actions and life example.

I'm sure I'm going to (or already have) step on some toes here, but honestly....I fear God, not man. You don't have to like me or what I believe and I don't push my beliefs on anyone (but since you asked! ;)). I talk, you can listen or not, and God and the Holy Spirit do the rest. If you don't hear, as sometimes the truth will fall on deaf ears, God's will be done. I know where my eternity will be and I will continue to pray for all those I come into contact with to not have to suffer an unfortunate and horrible eternity.

 

And I agree that God is very just...if he weren't, we'd all be **mned to hell.

 

As a disclaimer, I don't hold anyone's faith against them, no matter what it is (within reason, I'm not okay with devil worshipers and the like). I interact with and befriend many people and not all are Christian. But I pray that God is using me in the lives of each of them!

[Tracy in Ky]

Reformed Christian here too. Jesus Christ is the only way to God. He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. Those who come to the Father through His Son will spend eternity with Him in ever-increasing happiness. Those who do not come to the Father through His Son will spend eternity in hell in unimaginable suffering and despair.

 

Whosoever will may come. :)

[Haiku]

The same thing that happens to people who share our faith. We believe that reality is what it is whether you know about/care to believe it or not, and no one is punished for not believing.

 

Tara

[HRAAB]

According to my beliefs, the same thing happens to everyone after they die. And that is... Whatever it is that happens!

 

I'm alive now and that is important. What happens after I'm dead will be important after I'm dead! One challenge at a time, please!

 

Rosie

 

More or less sums it up. I do not know. I can think, hope, but the fact is, I do not know. What I can do is live a just, honest, compassionate life here on earth. There's enough here that needs my attention, and if living a just, compassionate life isn't enough, then I guess that's the way it'll be.