Cindy in C-ville Posted December 31, 2009 Share Posted December 31, 2009 Okay, in case you don't know, Katya is our new daughter whom we adopted from Ukraine. We arrived home on November 18th after a long and arduous journey. I still get teary as I think about how good it was to walk through those doors at Dulles and see dh and the rest of the children ... So, some things are going really well, but potty-training is not. We found out that she was potty-trained as a toddler by her grandmother, but when she went into the orphanage at 6yo, she was bullied in the bathroom. Her pants were ripped. We don't think there was any s.a., but she was scarred to the point that she said she just wouldn't go to the bathroom. So, she started urinating/defecating in her pants so that she could fulfill her vow. As a result she was bullied/teased by her peers. For the first couple of weeks that she was home, she wore a pull-up constantly. After two weeks, we met with a doctor, ruled out medical causes, and began to "potty-train." For her, this means panties during the day, pull-up at night. We introduced a sticker-chart, but she either doesn't understand it, or isn't interested, or something else. She takes the pull-up off in the morning and puts it under her bed. EVERY day, I remind her to put it in the trash can. She puts on panties and clothes, but wets/soils them consistently and is perfectly content to walk around this way. She changes when I tell her to change, but never initiates changing/cleaning herself. Although the rest of the kids are deeply compassionate toward her and understand that she is wounded, some of them are struggling because she smells bad most of the time. She will not allow me to help her clean herself and she doesn't do a good job, and so the only time she is really clean is right after she has taken a bath. Every couple of hours, I will say, "Time to potty." She'll go into the bathroom, but I have no idea what she is doing in there. I have been able to peak through the stall of a public bathroom and see her actually "going," so I know she is capable, but I have no idea what she is doing in the bathroom at home. Yesterday we took a family daytrip to D.C., and I made the decision to put her in a pull-up for the day rather than deal with the wetting/soiling through the day. I can't tell you what a relief this was to remove that level of stress from myself, dh, and the rest of the kiddoes. Right now, dh and I are reading Parenting the Hurt Child. We're thinking that it might help for her to be more responsible for cleaning up after herself - removing her sheets from the bed (she wets through the pull-up every night) and taking all soiled clothing and putting in a container of Oxy-clean to soak, then rinsing, and putting on a drying rack. Thoughts? Advice? Wisdom? TIA! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jen500 Posted December 31, 2009 Share Posted December 31, 2009 I would seriously look into whether she had more abuse. (Professional help) I used to work pt for a social agency helping foster/adoptive families...many of the kids had been abused (and sometimes the parents had no knowledge of the previous abuse) and they would have problems like you are describing. Good luck. Welcome home. :grouphug: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
6packofun Posted December 31, 2009 Share Posted December 31, 2009 How is she about baths? What if a "consequence" of soiling her clothes was an automatic bath? I assume she speaks little/no English, but you could make it very gently clear that wet pants = stinky (make it light and not accusatory, of course!) = automatic bathtime! It's a HUGE inconvenience, but maybe it will get old. I agree with you about having her help with all hygiene and cleaning up after messes! How old is she? I assume she's using the regular toilet? I was going to suggest that at potty time YOU sit on the toilet, too, while she's on a training potty and not leave her alone...but if she's already using the regular one maybe not. Or maybe she'd *like* a cute training potty? You all sound so patient and loving--what a blessing to that little girl! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
6packofun Posted December 31, 2009 Share Posted December 31, 2009 Or, what if you added a distraction element like cheerful music and/or singing to the potty time routine to take her mind off of the negative associations? And I'd be almost wildly approving for every time she succeeded, which I'm sure you're doing. :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donnado Posted December 31, 2009 Share Posted December 31, 2009 Hey Friend, I am to thrilled that you have your sweet Katya. I have been keeping up with you through your blog. About the potty training, I don't think I would stress too much yet because she is adjusting to many things still. I think it would be easy to show frustration but keep reminding yourself of all the new things she is encountering. Maybe even try and help the kids relate by comparing it to something that they find difficult and new. Keep your chin up. Your family is a blessing to many and Katya is now a part of it all. Love you! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
plansrme Posted December 31, 2009 Share Posted December 31, 2009 It sounds like this isn't a relevant anecdote, but bear with me: Shortly after we came home with my 15 mo. Chinese daughter, she tested positive for exposure to TB. She did not have active TB. The treatment is 6-9 months of daily antibiotics. Because she was so young, the pediatrician prescribed a liquid. It was truly foul-tasting. I fought and fought with her to take the liquid until I realized that the daily battle was interfering with our bonding process. The pediatrician was aghast, but I stopped the liquid after a couple of weeks and told him we would revisit the issue when she was 2. When she was 2, I did more research and requested the tablet form, which I crushed and gave to her in a teaspoon of chocolate syrup. It became a nightly ritual for us, her teaspoon of chocolate, and she looked forward to it. I do not for one minute regret not fighting the battle with her over the liquid. I am convinced that doing so would have, as my instincts suggested, been detrimental to our relationship. All that to say that perhaps Katya needs more time to bond with you and feel like part of the family before you fight this battle with her. I don't mean to imply that you are ridiculing her or literally battling with her (I don't get that at all), I just mean that it may be easier to delay an all-out war on pull-ups for a few months. If you can turn going-to-the-potty into a bonding experience (my now-9 yo still loves chocolate in all forms), all the better! Terri Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tammyla Posted December 31, 2009 Share Posted December 31, 2009 My thoughts, consider purchasing a lot more pull-ups for round the clock use and consult with a doctor on how to proceed. I'd also try and find a way to incorporate her routine into the training, like placing a garbage bag or container under her bed. If you don't have baby-wipes on hand, get them and explain how to use them. Do you have a bathroom (with a good lock) that she could call her own until this behind her? She might feel safer that way. :grouphug: I'll be praying for the two of your family. And I would go out of my way to ensure she doesn't feel punished. Okay, in case you don't know, Katya is our new daughter whom we adopted from Ukraine. We arrived home on November 18th after a long and arduous journey. I still get teary as I think about how good it was to walk through those doors at Dulles and see dh and the rest of the children ... So, some things are going really well, but potty-training is not. We found out that she was potty-trained as a toddler by her grandmother, but when she went into the orphanage at 6yo, she was bullied in the bathroom. Her pants were ripped. We don't think there was any s.a., but she was scarred to the point that she said she just wouldn't go to the bathroom. So, she started urinating/defecating in her pants so that she could fulfill her vow. As a result she was bullied/teased by her peers. For the first couple of weeks that she was home, she wore a pull-up constantly. After two weeks, we met with a doctor, ruled out medical causes, and began to "potty-train." For her, this means panties during the day, pull-up at night. We introduced a sticker-chart, but she either doesn't understand it, or isn't interested, or something else. She takes the pull-up off in the morning and puts it under her bed. EVERY day, I remind her to put it in the trash can. She puts on panties and clothes, but wets/soils them consistently and is perfectly content to walk around this way. She changes when I tell her to change, but never initiates changing/cleaning herself. Although the rest of the kids are deeply compassionate toward her and understand that she is wounded, some of them are struggling because she smells bad most of the time. She will not allow me to help her clean herself and she doesn't do a good job, and so the only time she is really clean is right after she has taken a bath. Every couple of hours, I will say, "Time to potty." She'll go into the bathroom, but I have no idea what she is doing in there. I have been able to peak through the stall of a public bathroom and see her actually "going," so I know she is capable, but I have no idea what she is doing in the bathroom at home. Yesterday we took a family daytrip to D.C., and I made the decision to put her in a pull-up for the day rather than deal with the wetting/soiling through the day. I can't tell you what a relief this was to remove that level of stress from myself, dh, and the rest of the kiddoes. Right now, dh and I are reading Parenting the Hurt Child. We're thinking that it might help for her to be more responsible for cleaning up after herself - removing her sheets from the bed (she wets through the pull-up every night) and taking all soiled clothing and putting in a container of Oxy-clean to soak, then rinsing, and putting on a drying rack. Thoughts? Advice? Wisdom? TIA! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cindy in C-ville Posted December 31, 2009 Author Share Posted December 31, 2009 Plansrme, I don't AT ALL hear any implication in your "voice" that I am ridiculing or battling her. I hear a voice of wisdom from one who has BTDT. I have thought of just putting on the pull-ups and not worrying about it for awhile. Diapers may be easier because then she doesn't have to take off all her clothes to change. I've seen her do this herself in Ukraine. She puts a diaper agains the wall, sticks her bum in it, and then fastens it around her waist. From what I can tell, her grandmother sent diapers with her the the orphanage each week and she put one on in this fashion at night. During the day she just peed (sp?) and pooped in her pants and suffered the humiliation of her peers shoving dirt down her pants, putting bugs in her face, etc. When we arrived in October, she had a big goose-egg on her forehead from one of her classmates hitting her with a brick. Our doctor suggested starting with the potty-training since there is no medical reason and so that we don't establish a pattern over here. Frankly, after a month, I'm ready to put it on the back burner, but don't know if this is best. She LOVES baths and calls it "swimming." This would be a reward rather than a "matter-of-fact" type of consequence. She has NO PROBLEM with me being in the bathroom with her while she's taking a bath, but doesn't want ANYONE in there when she is supposedly toileting. She also insists that I cover my eyes when she's changing clothes, although she's fine with me being in the room. Our stateside facilitator has the name of a therapist who specializes in Eastern European adoptions. We have been so overwhelmed that I haven't looked into this yet, but I believe we may need this kind of help. I'm afraid of the cost - both time and money. As are many, we're facing financial challenges right now. More thoughts/wisdom? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ELaurie Posted December 31, 2009 Share Posted December 31, 2009 All that to say that perhaps Katya needs more time to bond with you and feel like part of the family before you fight this battle with her. Terri :iagree: :grouphug: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LibraryLover Posted December 31, 2009 Share Posted December 31, 2009 :iagree: :grouphug: I agree about the back burner for now. Pullups can save the day right now. Your dd is so lucky to have such a thoughtful mom. Don't forget that it's not that unusual to find a 6 yr old here and there who has potty issues, and without a trauma history. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harriet Vane Posted December 31, 2009 Share Posted December 31, 2009 My best friend adopted a child from China and discovered similar issues. This was a toddler, so it was easier to just keep her in diapers. Their first attempt at potty training sparked a horrible, horrible reaction from their little girl that went on for hours. They will never know what happened to her to cause such fear (she was so young). They just put it on the back burner for a year. Since you are homeschooling you can just not do this for a while--six months? A year? You can cocoon and protect and bond. At this stage, I would consider EVERYTHING secondary to establishing trust and bonding. However, take my thoughts with the appropriate grain of salt--while I have many friends who have adopted hurt children either through foster care or Chinese adoption, I have not personally adopted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LibraryLover Posted December 31, 2009 Share Posted December 31, 2009 You can cocoon and protect and bond. QUOTE] Powerful words. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean in Newcastle Posted December 31, 2009 Share Posted December 31, 2009 My friend who adopted two children from the former Soviet Union, had this experience with one of them. She tried having him clean things up, baths, potty times and finally just ended up putting him in pull-ups. For her, taking the pressure of potty training off of herself and the child, seemed to help. She still had regular "sit on the potty times" but he eventually (around age 10) did start to get a handle on it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
torikei Posted December 31, 2009 Share Posted December 31, 2009 I think bonding is the most important thing now. Focus on it and the rest will fall into place. You seem to have a very good grasp of matters. Often it is difficult to keep your perspective when you adopt an older child. You are doing a great job. You might meet some resistance from others. I had a horrible time keeping my newly adopted five year old out of kindergarten. He made the cut off by 1 week and the school district was shocked that I didn't want to send him to kinder. I explained and explained about bonding and emotional issues being more important than educational issues. They eventually got it--but it was a long battle. The only regrets I have are when I let other things that seemed important at the time interfere with bonding. My five year old has turned into the most amazing young man whom I love more than life itself. P.S. Homeschooling is one of the best things you can do to facilitate bonding. Some of the really wise social workers are starting to favor homeschooling families to adopt older children especially. Take care, Tori Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hsmamainva Posted December 31, 2009 Share Posted December 31, 2009 I would just let her wear pull-ups for now until she feels comfortable. My youngest will be 8 next month. She's autistic, while she will pee in the toilet, she won't poop in the toilet. She wears Goodnights (as the Pull-ups brand no longer fits her as well) at night and when we go out in public, because she has an aversion to unfamiliar bathrooms (it's a whole sensory thing for her). At school and at home, she wears underwear. When she needs to poop, she'll get a Goodnight and put it on and then bring me the wipes to be changed. I know she'll get there eventually. It's been a very long journey and we're *almost* there....just not quite! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mama Bear Posted December 31, 2009 Share Posted December 31, 2009 What a huge thing, to have all this to deal with while you're trying to get to know a new member of your family. I think I would switch to GoodNights at night so there's less risk of wetting through -- practically speaking, laundry and discomfort associated with sleep/rest shouldn't comprise so much of her experience in her new home. I'd go with Pull-ups during the day, explaining once, as you give them to her, that when she's ready to use the toilet 100% of the time, she will be safe, it will be good, and there will be her nice drawer of big girl panties waiting for her. (Pull-ups are meant to be uncomfortable when wet, thus their use in the training process.) If she wants baths all the time to get clean, let her have them. As long as she's otherwise pretty much okay, eventually she will find other things to be consuming for her (games, reading, playing) and she won't be nearly so stuck on/in this. In the meantime, I'd be willing to bet that she's really needing a smaller cognitive focus as she adapts. :grouphug: HTH. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sonshine Posted December 31, 2009 Share Posted December 31, 2009 I'm just brain storming here as I have no experience with adopting a child and the issues involved. I think the priority of bonding is good, but maybe you could do a few things that would help her to toilet train when she is ready. I do work with autistic children. Part of learning a task is breaking it down into very small steps. I know her barrier is emotional not intellectual, but maybe you could add in 1 small step of toilet training at a time, such as walking to the bathroom after she has gone in her pants. Also, is there a way you can sneak in parts of toilet training, such as she sits on the potty before or after the bath, since she will let you in the bathroom then. She doesn't have to go, just sit there, and eat a treat maybe? Since she does like to have fun, there may be a gentle but motivating consequence to becoming toilet trained. After all, it is part of our society to not stink when out in public. You would need to be really wise about this, so it doesn't seem like the bullying she received in the orphanage. We all sometimes need motivation to overcome things that are hard for us. Maybe if it came from someone outside the family, it wouldn't be taken as your children and you ganging up on her. For example, a friend comes by with her children and takes the children to the park (or wherever within reason excites Katya). She says she can't take Katya because in America people have to not poop in their pants to go the the park (maybe a less general place would be better). Maybe even the other kids stop for a treat on the way home and are eating it when they come in the door. Or, the minute she smells Katya, she could call for you to come get her and take her home - just make sure that she isn't rewarded by fun time with Mommy. Even better, would be if another friend brought her home, so you aren't the bad guy. I don't mean for this to come across as a punitive thing, just a gentle but nagging reminder to her that she will gain benefits if she uses the toilet. It may take awhile. Also, I would be hesitant to give up totally on her toilet training right now when you still have the initial "This is how things are done in America" newness. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tap Posted December 31, 2009 Share Posted December 31, 2009 I understand you following the doctors advice to try the potty training. Since you have tried and failed, I would wait a while and try again (just like you would with a toddler). Let her use the Pull-Ups and adjust for a while. This is a battle she has dealt with her entire life and it sounds like she has just adapted to people being mean, disgusted, irritated, and tormenting. I have to imagine these wounds are too fresh and too ingrained for he do anything about it right now, other that 'not care'. Her acceptance of the issue is so deep inside her, that it will take a very, very long time to undo. She needs to have more time to deprogram from the constant assault she lived through before she can start to see another way. Right now, she needs unconditional love, honor and respect. The cues that most children have to teach them to not soil their pants...are gone for her. She has accepted the feeling on her skin, she has accepted the reaction of others. At this point you are just going to have to wait for her to be ready again. The only thing I can imagine working (and I may be wrong on this) is putting a large carrot in front of her, like once you are dry for a month, we will go to xyz (Disney, or something she would like). But, I would wait 6mths or so before I even attempted it. For now, I would tell her, "I don't like that you potty your pants, but we will deal with it for now by using Pull-ups." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cera Posted December 31, 2009 Share Posted December 31, 2009 It sounds like she fears using the bathroom because of how she was treated in the bathroom while at the orphanage. Do you have a lock on your bathroom door that would be easy to operate (maybe one of the push button locks that releases automatically when you turn the knob)? She might be more willing to use the bathroom if she understood that nobody can get to her to hurt her while she is in there (have her practice locking and unlocking it and try to open it while other kids are in there with it locked). I would also probably not abandon potty training completely because of her age (she will have a tough time socially outside of your home if she isn't trained). If you do make pullups available I would keep them in the bathroom and require she change them, clean up and dispose of them in the bathroom so that she gets used to the bathroom as a safe place for going potty. I would also consult with the therapist you mentioned. If she was treated that poorly over bathroom accidents (and the supervision wasn't there to stop it) who knows what else went on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SonshineLearner Posted December 31, 2009 Share Posted December 31, 2009 There are a couple of options. First, there are nighttime pullups that are more absorbent. Second, I found some pull-ups that are reuseable that I think would work well. They have the elastic on the sides... like disposable. I almost bought them for my 6.5 year old... as I don't think he'll be out of pullups for a long time. My 9 year old nephew.... is still in them. I've just decided that it's not worth it. I just stopped helping him in the restroom in the last few weeks. He'd still prefer help. (he's literally 6 1/2) I'm thinking I'd do pullups and then just bathe after... After a while.... perhaps offer a treat.... if she goes on the potty. I'd offer maybe... some play money... and a toy at the end or something.... (probably not food...) Carrie:-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HayesW Posted December 31, 2009 Share Posted December 31, 2009 Would she use a toilet that is NOT in the bathroom? If you put a small potty chair or collapsible toilet in her room, would that reomve the concern for her in the bathroom? I wish you all the best. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colleen in NS Posted December 31, 2009 Share Posted December 31, 2009 I have thought of just putting on the pull-ups and not worrying about it for awhile. Our doctor suggested starting with the potty-training since there is no medical reason and so that we don't establish a pattern over here. Frankly, after a month, I'm ready to put it on the back burner, but don't know if this is best. She LOVES baths and calls it "swimming." This would be a reward rather than a "matter-of-fact" type of consequence. She has NO PROBLEM with me being in the bathroom with her while she's taking a bath, but doesn't want ANYONE in there when she is supposedly toileting. She also insists that I cover my eyes when she's changing clothes, although she's fine with me being in the room. No experience here, either. But the idea of waiting sounds good to me. She is 8, right? Maybe she does just need several more months to settle in, process all that is new and bombarding her, learn English a little more, enjoy the fact that no one is bullying her in the bathroom anymore, learn to trust her new family. And why not use baths each time - maybe she would get tired of having to bathe every couple of hours? But it would be a pleasant way, for now, to deal with her being soiled? Sometimes it's just easier on the entire family to go with the easy route for awhile, then figure out a new way to change the routine/habit for the better, long term. I've really enjoyed reading about your adoption process. Thanks for sharing here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sputterduck Posted December 31, 2009 Share Posted December 31, 2009 You sound like a really great mama. I'd take all the pressure off for a few months at least and go with the pullups. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gandpsmommy Posted December 31, 2009 Share Posted December 31, 2009 I'm sorry that I don't have any advice for you on this at all. I'd just had to say that it touches my heart so deeply to know that there are loving people who open their homes to hurting little children who desperately need compassionate care. It's bringing tears to my eyes right now just thinking about it. We know a family who adopted three children from Lithuania. I can't imagine how difficult it is sometimes to know what to do or how to handle situationa like this. But it's so hope-inspiring and heart warming to know that there are people who do it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mom-ninja. Posted December 31, 2009 Share Posted December 31, 2009 I think your gut instinct of putting it on the back buner is right. Let it go for now. She needs to bond with you forst. Once she has a comfortable tie with you things will move forward. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lea1 Posted December 31, 2009 Share Posted December 31, 2009 My guys were only 14 and 15.5 months old when they came home from Russia so I have not had to deal with this. But based on all of the reading I did before our adoption (for a year!), I definitely agree with what the others have said about putting it on the back burner for now. She has scars from what she went through that need to heal and she needs to be able to trust her new environment and her new family and feel it is a safe place. This takes a while for an older child. She is having to deal with so many changes right now that adding this thing that she is so scared of is probably too much. Congratulations on the new addition to your family. I will definitely be checking out your blog.:001_smile: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeri Posted December 31, 2009 Share Posted December 31, 2009 Can you add a reward (I used to use M&Ms with my toddlers, and they worked!). I agree with everyone else. This won't go on forever and once she is secure with all of you, and can explain/talk about things better, she will start to feel differently. Or by then you will be able to exert a little more parental authority. But she is learning/processsing so much right now! So, buy lots of pullups/goodnights for a while and hang in there! Jeri Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cindy in C-ville Posted December 31, 2009 Author Share Posted December 31, 2009 Thanks, all, so much. I am home from a day of compromising and I feel great. For this mom whose nutritional preferences run toward homemade bread, yogurt, green smoothies, black bean soup, etc., I now have instant potatoes, store-bought bread and yogurt, canned corn, etc. as familiar foods that I can fix instantly for my little gal who needs the comfort of the familiar as well as a mom whose not stressing out. I have bought a basket for books and supplies for Year 2 MOH and Apologia Botany, and a basket for crafty stuff for a bit of unschooling notebooking fun for the rest of the year. I've bough JumpStart 1st Grade for Katya for whenever, and 4th-6th for my others as reward for working on the rest of their stuff. I've traded in Rod and Staff for Easy Grammar, but will continue with Life of Fred and Saxon for math. Latin is totally on the backburner as I can't figure out how to do that and maintain sanity. Finally I bought a HUGE box of size 6 diapers and wipes so that she can change herself without the "rigamarole" of taking off wet tights (which she chooses to wear) and jeans to change a pull-up. Tonight we'll enjoy a "Family New Year's Eve." Dh is loading all of our pics from 2009 into a slide show program. We're making guacamole/chips, bagel pizzas, veggies/hummus ... and instant potatoes and canned corn along with cranberry/ginger ale spritzers. Your stories, wisdom, advice, and ENCOURAGEMENT mean so much to me. Frankly, it doesn't feel like anything great that we're doing. We love Katya. She's our daughter and we were compelled by a love greater than our own to bring her home. What else could we do? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sonshine Posted December 31, 2009 Share Posted December 31, 2009 I am mentioning something now because it may be something you want to check into in the future. As an occupational therapist I have been to a seminar for Therapeutic Listening, a program where kids listen to CDs with specially programmed music. As well as helping with developmental problems, the creators of the program state that it has had success with helping adopted kids from orphanages overcome some of the trauma they had experienced.The other attending therapists at the two day seminar, who had already used the program because someone else in their facility had been trained in it and they were there because they wanted the formal training for themselves, all told me they had experienced much success with the program, including helping kids toilet train. There are several similar programs out there, all seeming to build upon the system and breakthroughs of the other companies. Therapeutic Listening seems to be one of the more recent and therefore advanced systems. The music is specially selected for each child, which is an advancement over the systems that play the same music for everyone. It's expensive and may not be anything you are supposed to do, but I wanted to mention it while I was thinking of it. You seem like a wonderful mother - I know God will give you wisdom in helping your daughter with this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tammyla Posted December 31, 2009 Share Posted December 31, 2009 :grouphug:Thanks for updating us. I'll be thinking of you guys and praying. Thanks, all, so much. I am home from a day of compromising and I feel great. For this mom whose nutritional preferences run toward homemade bread, yogurt, green smoothies, black bean soup, etc., I now have instant potatoes, store-bought bread and yogurt, canned corn, etc. as familiar foods that I can fix instantly for my little gal who needs the comfort of the familiar as well as a mom whose not stressing out. I have bought a basket for books and supplies for Year 2 MOH and Apologia Botany, and a basket for crafty stuff for a bit of unschooling notebooking fun for the rest of the year. I've bough JumpStart 1st Grade for Katya for whenever, and 4th-6th for my others as reward for working on the rest of their stuff. I've traded in Rod and Staff for Easy Grammar, but will continue with Life of Fred and Saxon for math. Latin is totally on the backburner as I can't figure out how to do that and maintain sanity. Finally I bought a HUGE box of size 6 diapers and wipes so that she can change herself without the "rigamarole" of taking off wet tights (which she chooses to wear) and jeans to change a pull-up. Tonight we'll enjoy a "Family New Year's Eve." Dh is loading all of our pics from 2009 into a slide show program. We're making guacamole/chips, bagel pizzas, veggies/hummus ... and instant potatoes and canned corn along with cranberry/ginger ale spritzers. Your stories, wisdom, advice, and ENCOURAGEMENT mean so much to me. Frankly, it doesn't feel like anything great that we're doing. We love Katya. She's our daughter and we were compelled by a love greater than our own to bring her home. What else could we do? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mom2GirlsTX Posted December 31, 2009 Share Posted December 31, 2009 Hi Cindy, Hugs! I am sending you a PM about it. :001_smile: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denisemomof4 Posted December 31, 2009 Share Posted December 31, 2009 Plansrme, I don't AT ALL hear any implication in your "voice" that I am ridiculing or battling her. I hear a voice of wisdom from one who has BTDT. I have thought of just putting on the pull-ups and not worrying about it for awhile. Diapers may be easier because then she doesn't have to take off all her clothes to change. I've seen her do this herself in Ukraine. She puts a diaper agains the wall, sticks her bum in it, and then fastens it around her waist. From what I can tell, her grandmother sent diapers with her the the orphanage each week and she put one on in this fashion at night. During the day she just peed (sp?) and pooped in her pants and suffered the humiliation of her peers shoving dirt down her pants, putting bugs in her face, etc. When we arrived in October, she had a big goose-egg on her forehead from one of her classmates hitting her with a brick. Our doctor suggested starting with the potty-training since there is no medical reason and so that we don't establish a pattern over here. Frankly, after a month, I'm ready to put it on the back burner, but don't know if this is best. She LOVES baths and calls it "swimming." This would be a reward rather than a "matter-of-fact" type of consequence. She has NO PROBLEM with me being in the bathroom with her while she's taking a bath, but doesn't want ANYONE in there when she is supposedly toileting. She also insists that I cover my eyes when she's changing clothes, although she's fine with me being in the room. Our stateside facilitator has the name of a therapist who specializes in Eastern European adoptions. We have been so overwhelmed that I haven't looked into this yet, but I believe we may need this kind of help. I'm afraid of the cost - both time and money. As are many, we're facing financial challenges right now. More thoughts/wisdom? having an adopted child myself, I would suggest you put it on the back burner for awhile. She's still adjusting to her new life and her new family. I would not make this an issue right now. Doctors that aren't familiar with the issues orphanage kids have simply WON'T understand. Although she's 8, emotionally she's far, far younger. You need to parent her at her EMOTIONAL age, not her biological age. I'm concerned that more has happened than you know about. I've recently done research on s. abuse and fear that my youngest suffered this, too. Bathroom issues are the #1 sign of this. Your daughter is too old to be wearing pull-ups without there being a reason for it. It's not common for older orphanage kids to be wearing them. I didn't know what the symptoms were but we've had so many bathroom issues and someone recently suggest I do that research. It breaks my heart because my daughter was only 14 months of age when we brought her home from China, and I can tell you for SURE she was extremely flirtatious with men and touched them inappropriately until I taught her not to. How sad is that? Sad at any age, but 14 months of age? I can clearly see now that my daughter had severe trauma and PTSD when we brought her home. I'm sure your daughter does too as she's suffered so much. May I recommend cosleeping with her? I had a "bed" for my daughter and she was next to me for a long time. We've done it off and on but won't be doing it anymore because she intentionally wakes me up and then I suffer migraines. But for now, maybe you could try that? She needs to learn to trust you. That's going to take a long, long time. After so much time in the orphanage, I think it's going to be difficult to get her to trust, but it will come. Time, persistence and LOTS AND LOTS OF PRAYER. I've followed your journey with you because of my own. I do believe you have a long, hard journey ahead of you. God will give you the strength you need, God is on your side. But it's not going to be easy. I've read over and over that you need to give the child as much time in the home to heal as the child had in the orphanage. It's a long time. In the meantime, I would suggest you cuddle and rock her as much as you can and not worry about potty training. Maybe when her English is better (I think you'll be surprised at how quickly she will learn!) it may be more successful. :grouphug: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denise in IN Posted December 31, 2009 Share Posted December 31, 2009 Cindy, the Lord bless you and your dh as you walk through this. It's tough at the beginning, so many questions, and not so many clear answers! As I've thought about your questions this afternoon, I lean toward what others have said - to wait a while on the potty training. You are dealing with the adjustments & grieving process, the bonding/relationship/trust issues that just take time; you have the language/understanding barriers, and this is an issue that has a traumatic and emotionally loaded backdrop for her. If you can wait until some of those things are more developed, it will probably be more successful and less traumatic process for K. Continued prayers for you and yours! It is not an easy road to walk, but as the Lord calls He gives His love, grace, wisdom, and strength. :grouphug: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clarkacademy Posted December 31, 2009 Share Posted December 31, 2009 Well if bathtime is kinda a fun thing then make the times she has to clean up herself not fun. I am not talking mean here either. Just no filling up the tub with lotsa water give her a washcloth with soap and have her just wash and then get out. My daughter hated it after a few days and was happy to have her fun baths back. I don't ridicule or be harsh either just matter of fact with my kids. I am really glad by the way you finally got that little doll home and hope these bumps in the road become easier for you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amber in AUS Posted January 1, 2010 Share Posted January 1, 2010 Hi Cindy, What a journey you are going through. I can't even begin to imagine. I have no experience with adoption or older children for that matter, but i will throw in my 2c anyway. First off i would take a big step back. Take the pressure off. She is damaged and she needs time to heal and trust. So go back to pull ups for now and work on baby steps. You mentioned that she is putting the soiled pull ups under the bed. Perhaps you could put a bucket or similar there and get her to put the pull ups there. Once she is doing that consistently move the bucket from under the bed to next to the bed, then to the door and ultimately you want the bucket in the toilet/bathroom. This has been a battle she has fought her whole life and one of the only things that she has ever felt empowered about. Adopted & fostered kids can be similar with food and i am sure you are battling food hoarding. You can want her to change her behaviour, but ultimately only she has the power to make the change. She has to want to change and that will take time for her. I would encourage you to deal with it in a matter of fact way. Try to empower her to make the right choice. It is going to be a long road but she will get there. I would have her help with the laundry. I would try explain that she does smell and will need to wash each & everytime time. Just be matter of fact. If you make this choice then you will need to do x, y & z. We are OK with that choice, but we are not going to reward or encourage it. I would still encourage safe bathroom time. Like before you go out everyone goes to the bathroom, including K. Before bathtime everyone goes, before bedtime etc. Just build toilet stops into your routine for everyone and let her have the pull up the rest of the time. I am not the praying type but my thoughts are with you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cindy in C-ville Posted January 1, 2010 Author Share Posted January 1, 2010 Thanks! This is definitely a thread I'm saving. I've bought the flushable wipes, but they are just SO expensive. I think the grieving is real. It's hard to identify what is what, but I feel certain that is part of what she is experiencing right now. I don't know that this issue is part of that, but it could be. It also could be testing - "Will they really still act loving to me if I wet/poop in my pants, smell bad?" Denise, your story breaks my heart. 14 months - :( :( :(. Bless your heart. Thank you for all your words of encouragement and personal experience. So much still to pray through, think through, etc. More thoughts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haiku Posted January 1, 2010 Share Posted January 1, 2010 I have adopted two older kids from orphanages. I would not even give potty-training a thought right now. Your little girl's world has been turned upside down. The emotional hurdles she is facing are of a magnitude most of us will never understand. Asking her to deal with the emotionally fraught issue of potty-training on top of that is, to me, too much. My advice is to reduce everyone's stress by keeping her in pull-ups for at least six months OR until she decides to use the potty on her own, whichever is sooner. Re-evaluate at six months (even then she may not be ready). Btw, kids who have been sexually abused often soil themselves as a way of keeping people away from them. I would seriously investigate that possibility with a counselor trained in working with traumatized adopted kids. Any old regular counselor won't do (as me how I know ...). Tara Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haiku Posted January 1, 2010 Share Posted January 1, 2010 (edited) I'm afraid of the cost - both time and money. As are many, we're facing financial challenges right now. Check to see whether your state offers PASSS funds ... I believe it stands for Post Adoption Special Services Subsidy. The are funds disbursed by the local county children's services agency to help pay for services required by adopted children. Tara Edited January 1, 2010 by TaraTheLiberator Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OHGrandma Posted January 1, 2010 Share Posted January 1, 2010 Katya sounds like a very determined girl. She made up her mind not to use the toilet, and was willing to suffer much abuse just to stick with what she decided to do. She desparately needs to be in control, and this is the area she chose. I'd also advise to not worry about potty training at this time, provide the pullups/diapers. I'd work on bonding and trust. As her trust grows, and communication skills get better, I'd talk to her about whether she had plans for using the toilet and encourage her to make the decision for herself. I would teach her to clean up after herself at this time, the same as any 8 year old can strip their beds, brush their teeth, wash themselves. I'd be inclined to let her know when she smells unpleasant, but you know better how she would react to that. I wouldn't want it to be shameful, just a matter of fact and something she can fix. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denisemomof4 Posted January 1, 2010 Share Posted January 1, 2010 I have adopted two older kids from orphanages. I would not even give potty-training a thought right now. Your little girl's world has been turned upside down. The emotional hurdles she is facing are of a magnitude most of us will never understand. Asking her to deal with the emotionally fraught issue of potty-training on top of that is, to me, too much. My advice is to reduce everyone's stress by keeping her in pull-ups for at least six months OR until she decides to use the potty on her own, whichever is sooner. Re-evaluate at six months (even then she may not be ready). Btw, kids who have been sexually abused often soil themselves as a way of keeping people away from them. I would seriously investigate that possibility with a counselor trained in working with traumatized adopted kids. Any old regular counselor won't do (as me how I know ...). Tara I can't even stress enough that if you do decide to get counseling, make sure the therapist is well trained and experienced with adopted kids. Getting the wrong kind of help can and will make your daughter worse. Please make sure you get their experience up front. Another thing I think is very important is to shut out the outside world as much as possible and just focus on bonding with her. I did this for about a year and a half. Try not to make the mistake I did by neglecting the rest of the family and focusing only on my adopted dd. But you're trying to show her what family is, and specifically she needs to know who Mommy is. My daughter has been home 6.5 years and still doesnt' come to me when she is hurt or hungry or anything. She will sometimes and other times she doesn't. And that's my fault because I had *everyone* helping. She really needs to understand Mommy and who meets her needs, who will always help her and be there for her. Really, I'd strongly suggest ALL needs be met solely by you. I'd also suggest buying the potty training videos and books. Even though she's older, she's emotionally much younger and I believe she'll enjoy them. Do you have someone you could borrow them from? Introduce the concept to her and watch the video, read the books, but not have her try to use the potty for some time still. There's just too much trauma associated with that and it's something that has deep scars on your poor dd. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaMa2005 Posted January 1, 2010 Share Posted January 1, 2010 Having adopted an older toddler child from China, I agree with everyone's advice that bonding needs to take place before the potty training can begin. Our children have been through so much that we will NEVER know about. Let her feel your love for her just as she is now and she will make great strides when she finally feels secure and knows that she has a forever family. Good luck and lots of :grouphug:. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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