So furious I could kill

[swellmomma]

Tonight the kids went to their fine arts program to make Christmas ornaments (they have 2 workshop type classes this week, now that fall term is over). Normally I stay and help in the classes but today due to dd2 being ill I told the assistant program supervisor that I would be out in the car with the little one if they needed me and not staying. Apparently Ceilidh decided it would be funny to annoy a teen girl in her class by repeatedly poking her. One of the parent volunteers decided that rather than getting help from the assistant program supervisor (who could then get me if needed), she would take matters into her own hands. She repeatedly grabbed dd by the arms digging her finger nails in threating to spank her if she poked the girl again. DD now has crescent shaped cuts up and down her forearms from this woman.

 

I know dd can be trying and push people to their limits, BUT I have received glowing reports from the staff every week since the start of term about her behaviour, so this is not someone who was at her last straw from dealing with dd every week. In addition we have some very disturbed kids who attend the program and are so badly behaved we have had teachers quit and they have never been treated in this manner.

 

I am so furious with this woman right now. DD screwed up and knows it and is in trouble for being annoying bugging this girl when she was told to stop. But I can not believe this woman thought it would be okay to manhandle her and threaten to spank her! The teacher in the room is just a Uni student and she didn't know what to do. She told me that at one point dd yelled that the woman was hurting her and got loose and tried to run away, and this woman chased her, blocked her path and grabbed her again. I found out because dd ran out of the building in tears to come to me.

 

I talked with the assitant program supervisor tonight and will be calling the main program director to discuss it tomorrow. they have their last class of the term on Thursday night, a chocolate making workshop. I warned the assistant sup. tonight that I didn't care if babygirl was still sick Thursday I will be in that class supervising. THe ONE and ONLY night all term that I left the building someone manhandles my kid. She was very apologetic and says she understands, she was not informed that they were having troubles with dd tonight, nor did the teacher let her know about this woman going after her.

 

This had better be dealt with before Thursday because I am out for blood on this one.

Edited December 2, 2009 by swellmomma
fixing a spelling error

[newlifemom]

You have every right to be upset. :grouphug: to you and dd.

[Guest Dulcimeramy]

Take photos of your child's arms in case you want to show the evidence to the police.

[joannqn]

Take photos of your child's arms in case you want to show the evidence to the police.

:iagree:

 

Depending on how bad it is, I'd consider legal action. If this woman is willing to do this to another person's child, what is she doing to her own kids?

[Starr]

I don't even know what to say! :grouphug:

[WiseOwlKnits]

Definitely take pictures! I can't believe she did that to your DD! I would be seriously livid!!!

[Ravin]

Take pictures and go to the police. The woman should be charged with assault.

[happi duck]

Oh my! That is unbelievable! There is nothing a child could do that would warrent that treatment! :grouphug:

[sunshine]

She obviously needs anger management and serious counseling. Maybe even a night in the pokey. I wonder if this a pattern with her? Does she have children of her own? If she does maybe you should call the Children Services Dept. You probably should anyway.

[dannie]

Definitely take pictures! I can't believe she did that to your DD! I would be seriously livid!!!

 

:iagree:

 

I'm speechless!!!

[WishboneDawn]

I'd be having words with the woman. It doesn't matter what your daughter did, that woman was violent and she needs to know people will call her on it.

 

I'd also get her banned from volunteering at this class. She can't handle it and no other children should be hurt.

[chiguirre]

I think you have to call CPS or the police. I'd take pictures of your dd's arms as backup to her testimony. I know it's hard to make a public fuss, but this woman can't be allowed to work with kids, especially sn kids.

 

:grouphug:

[lgm]

I would call the Dr. if your dd's skin was cut and ask if you need to do anything more than disinfect the wounds. Fingernails are notorious for harboring germs.

 

This person should not be supervising children ever again. I would file a written complaint, including photos, with the provider of the class. Should you have to make a Dr.'s visit, you may be able to recoup your costs in small claims court -- here the judge will award you your costs for dealing with dog bites, so I"m sure it's just as easy for human attacks.

[Laurie4b]

Tonight the kids went to their fine arts program to make Christmas ornaments (they have 2 workshop type classes this week, now that fall term is over). Normally I stay and help in the classes but today due to dd2 being ill I told the assistant program supervisor that I would be out in the car with the little one if they needed me and not staying. Apparently Ceilidh decided it would be funny to annoy a teen girl in her class by repeatedly poking her. One of the parent volunteers decided that rather than getting help from the assistant program supervisor (who could then get me if needed), she would take matters into her own hands. She repeatedly grabbed dd by the arms digging her finger nails in threating to spank her if she poked the girl again. DD now has crescent shaped cuts up and down her forearms from this woman.

 

I know dd can be trying and push people to their limits, BUT I have received glowing reports from the staff every week since the start of term about her behaviour, so this is not someone who was at her last straw from dealing with dd every week. In addition we have some very disturbed kids who attend the program and are so badly behaved we have had teachers quit and they have never been treated in this manner.

 

I am so furious with this woman right now. DD screwed up and knows it and is in trouble for being annoying bugging this girl when she was told to stop. But I can not believe this woman thought it would be okay to manhandle her and threaten to spank her! The teacher in the room is just a Uni student and she didn't know what to do. She told me that at one point dd yelled that the woman was hurting her and got loose and tried to run away, and this woman chased her, blocked her path and grabbed her again. I found out because dd ran out of the building in tears to come to me.

 

I talked with the assitant program supervisor tonight and will be calling the main program director to discuss it tomorrow. they have their last class of the term on Thursday night, a chocolate making workshop. I warned the assistant sup. tonight that I didn't care if babygirl was still sick Thursday I will be in that class supervising. THe ONE and ONLY night all term that I left the building someone manhandles my kid. She was very apologetic and says she understands, she was not informed that they were having troubles with dd tonight, nor did the teacher let her know about this woman going after her.

 

This had better be dealt with before Thursday because I am out for blood on this one.

 

The behavior was clearly assault (both the injuries and blocking your dd's attempt to escape). You could (maybe should) pursue crimimal charges as well as civil charges. I think I probably would call the police. Take your dd to the doctor for care and for documentation of the injuries. Even if there had been only one set of nail marks, that would be bad enough, but the fact that there were several and that she chased your dd, blocked her way, etc. makes this so much the worse.

 

For one thing, if she does that with your dd in public with witnesses, what else does she feel entitled to do ? She could be escalating out of control and your action will help stop other children from being harmed.

 

I would NOT confront her myself; it's more likely to muddle things. Just let the authorities handle it.

Edited December 2, 2009 by Laurie4b

[Greta]

My first thought when I read your post was "take pictures of the injuries!" Whatever course of action you may decide to pursue, secure your evidence now.

 

My second thought was . . .

 

dd yelled that the woman was hurting her and got loose and tried to run away, and this woman chased her, blocked her path and grabbed her again.

 

what the @#*#?!? It's bad enough that she had already hurt your dd, but to chase after her and try to keep her from leaving??? That's just scary. Something is very wrong with this picture.

[LibraryLover]

Are you in CN? If you are in the US, I think the director of that program must report her to DDS as she has to be a mandated reporter. If your child has cuts up and down her arms there is no way the director can't report her, I think. I wouldn't confront her myself, but I would try to see that she doesn't work with kids until she gets some help, which will probably only happen if DSS is contacted.

 

ETA: I see you are in CD. Do you have mandated reporter laws in Alberta?

Edited December 2, 2009 by LibraryLover

[QueenCat]

:grouphug: I'm with the other posters who suggest taking pictures. Do it ASAP before it's too late, and do it again as the bruising changes. Even if you decide later not to contact the police, you've got what you need if you do. Take her to the doctor asap. Do not let the program do anything other than get rid of this woman and report her to social services. Your daughter's behavior is IRRELEVANT to the adult's actions!!! Do not let anyone make you think other wise!!!!!!!!!

[QueenCat]

One more thing... change your post's subject line. You do not want any perception of any threats from you towards this woman.

[Laurie4b]

The behavior was clearly assault (both the injuries and blocking your dd's attempt to escape). You could (maybe should) pursue crimimal charges as well as civil charges. I think I probably would call the police. Take your dd to the doctor for care and for documentation of the injuries. Even if there had been only one set of nail marks, that would be bad enough, but the fact that there were several and that she chased your dd, blocked her way, etc. makes this so much the worse.

 

For one thing, if she does that with your dd in public with witnesses, what else does she feel entitled to do ? She could be escalating out of control and your action will help stop other children from being harmed.

 

I would NOT confront her myself; it's more likely to muddle things. Just let the authorities handle it.

 

It is likely also the responsibility of the sponsoring organization to report the behavior of this woman to the police. I don't know whether the laws in Canada would also cover reporting to Child Protective Services. It would not where I live (it would have to be family members or a daycare). But the organization sponsoring the class also has an obligation to pursue the correct legal matters.

[Laurie4b]

My first thought when I read your post was "take pictures of the injuries!" Whatever course of action you may decide to pursue, secure your evidence now.

 

My second thought was . . .

 

 

 

what the @#*#?!? It's bad enough that she had already hurt your dd, but to chase after her and try to keep her from leaving??? That's just scary. Something is very wrong with this picture.

 

That is at least "assault" in and of itself. It's bordering on the legal definition of kidnapping (which can mean keeping someone someplace they don't want to be. If you're a bad guy thief, and you tie up your victim, that can be construed as kidnapping, even if she stays in her own home the whole time.) It is alarming behavior.

[Laurie4b]

Are you in CN? If you are in the US, I think the director of that program must report her to DDS as she has to be a mandated reporter. If your child has cuts up and down her arms there is no way the director can't report her, I think. I wouldn't confront her myself, but I would try to see that she doesn't work with kids until she gets some help, which will probably only happen if DSS is contacted.

 

ETA: I see you are in CD. Do you have mandated reporter laws in Alberta?

 

She's a mandated reporter in the US, but at least where I live, that is not a DSS report, as the woman is not a "caregiver" (a day care operator would be investigated by CPS, but not a teacher.). Where I live in the US, this would be a police report.

[tdeveson]

Call the police right now while the cuts are fresh. File charges against her, and have her arrested. Then take your child to the doctor and have the doctor document the cuts with photographs and chart notes.

[Donna A.]

One more thing... change your post's subject line. You do not want any perception of any threats from you towards this woman.

 

Yes! When I first saw it, I thought, "Oh no, this isn't good." I understand the feeling -- I'd be feeling the same way -- but using those words in public isn't a good idea.

 

Agreeing with the others... take pictures immediately before anymore time passes, and then be sure to follow up with *action*. Just make sure you have the full truth before reporting her to anyone, though.

[Laurie4b]

Call the police right now while the cuts are fresh. File charges against her, and have her arrested. Then take your child to the doctor and have the doctor document the cuts with photographs and chart notes.

 

I agree. A doctor's documentation (including photos) are considered a much higher level of evidence than your own photos.

[Remudamom]

Sh!tfire, have that woman put away. Pictures, lawyer, police, find out where she works and have her fired, remove any children from her home.

 

Send me her email.

[elfgivas]

yikes! i'm so sorry. my dd would not be going back for chocolate making. at first i thought it was impish and wrote a long cross-cultural post. but its you, and i think you're here in the usa. if so, your pediatrician is required to report suspected abuse. sadly, most abuse occurrs at home so that will be their natural suspicion, regardless of what you say. it could get quite ugly. here in california, the cps remove kids from the home first and ask questions second. so i wouldn't go that route.

 

i'd take pictures, i'd make chocolate at home with my dd, i'd write to the organizers of the program and ask if they've filed legal reports yet and attach the pictures of your dds arms for them to add to their report. that ought to stir the pot nicely, and at least ensure that this volunteer is asked to not be involved again (because that is also important).

 

i'm so sorry you're having to deal with this!

ann

Edited December 2, 2009 by elfgivas@yahoo.com

[Dawn in OH]

Wow. I'm in agreement with the other mom's here. Take pictures. Call the police. Get her banned from the group.

 

That kind of behavior is not acceptable with your OWN child, to do that to someone else's child is just unthinkable. This woman needs punished appropriately. She doesn't sound like someone that should be around children.

[Jennifer in MI]

I totally agree with the others.

 

1. Take pictures.

2. Get her to a doctor who can document the injury.

3. Call the police.

4. Change the title of the thread.

 

:grouphug: I'd be after her head if she did that to one of my children!

[MariannNOVA]

Call the police right now while the cuts are fresh. File charges against her, and have her arrested. Then take your child to the doctor and have the doctor document the cuts with photographs and chart notes.

 

:iagree: Absolutely -- you must be the voice of your child here and her advocate!

[Tree House Academy]

I would have to take pictures and confront this parent directly. I would also take it to the "powers that be" and ask that she be excluded from volunteering.

[KayT]

Take pictures and go to the police. The woman should be charged with assault.

:iagree:

 

There is not excuse for an adult to behave this way at all period. I don't care what your dd did.

[elfgivas]

i guess i'm still the dissenting voice here. i'd do what is best for your family and your daughter.

 

if you haven't been involved in police charges before, talk to someone who has before you go that route. its hard on everyone, and doesn't necessarily have the desired results. the medical exams, the psychiatric evaluations, the cps visits..... nope, i wouldn't go there in this particular case. all of that is more likely to traumatize your dd than what has already happened.

 

i would document and send a letter to the organizers, with photos attached for them to include when they make their legal report. and request that this parent volunteer not be involved again.

 

and i'd find a new program.

 

fwiw,

ann

[Donna A.]

i guess i'm still the dissenting voice here. i'd do what is best for your family and your daughter.

 

if you haven't been involved in police charges before, talk to someone who has before you go that route. its hard on everyone, and doesn't necessarily have the desired results. the medical exams, the psychiatric evaluations, the cps visits..... nope, i wouldn't go there in this particular case. all of that is more likely to traumatize your dd than what has already happened.

 

i would document and send a letter to the organizers, with photos attached for them to include when they make their legal report. and request that this parent volunteer not be involved again.

 

and i'd find a new program.

 

fwiw,

ann

 

See, I think I agree with Ann. Yes, the woman who did it was very wrong, but getting the police and all the others, making it very "involved", may just be reactionary at this point. I'd still take pictures and write letters to the appropriate people (keeping copies for yourself and sending the originals with proof of delivery), but I'd go through the channels at the organization where you're involved before getting all the government officials involved. You never know what kind of messiness can come out of the government's involvement, and it may backfire. :confused:

[Avila]

Wow. If she would do that kind of damage in public and in full view of everyone with you in the parking lot, I can't even imagine what she would do when she thinks no one is watching her. Hugs to you and and your DD. I would probably call the police, if only to scare the heck out of her and make sure that she realizes how serious this is. I hope her own kids aren't in any danger. Again, just wow.

[Nakia]

Holy sh!t!!! I am shocked. To borrow a line from my mom, I would be on her like white on rice. Around here, that kind of behavior will get you a butt-kicking pronto. I do not understand people!!!!

 

Please call the police. That woman ASSAULTED your child. Show your daughter that you will not tolerate her being mistreated!

[Tammyla]

Your poor kiddo:grouphug:. I'm truly shocked an adult would treat a child this way in that setting.

 

Tonight the kids went to their fine arts program to make Christmas ornaments (they have 2 workshop type classes this week, now that fall term is over). Normally I stay and help in the classes but today due to dd2 being ill I told the assistant program supervisor that I would be out in the car with the little one if they needed me and not staying. Apparently Ceilidh decided it would be funny to annoy a teen girl in her class by repeatedly poking her. One of the parent volunteers decided that rather than getting help from the assistant program supervisor (who could then get me if needed), she would take matters into her own hands. She repeatedly grabbed dd by the arms digging her finger nails in threating to spank her if she poked the girl again. DD now has crescent shaped cuts up and down her forearms from this woman.

 

I know dd can be trying and push people to their limits, BUT I have received glowing reports from the staff every week since the start of term about her behaviour, so this is not someone who was at her last straw from dealing with dd every week. In addition we have some very disturbed kids who attend the program and are so badly behaved we have had teachers quit and they have never been treated in this manner.

 

I am so furious with this woman right now. DD screwed up and knows it and is in trouble for being annoying bugging this girl when she was told to stop. But I can not believe this woman thought it would be okay to manhandle her and threaten to spank her! The teacher in the room is just a Uni student and she didn't know what to do. She told me that at one point dd yelled that the woman was hurting her and got loose and tried to run away, and this woman chased her, blocked her path and grabbed her again. I found out because dd ran out of the building in tears to come to me.

 

I talked with the assitant program supervisor tonight and will be calling the main program director to discuss it tomorrow. they have their last class of the term on Thursday night, a chocolate making workshop. I warned the assistant sup. tonight that I didn't care if babygirl was still sick Thursday I will be in that class supervising. THe ONE and ONLY night all term that I left the building someone manhandles my kid. She was very apologetic and says she understands, she was not informed that they were having troubles with dd tonight, nor did the teacher let her know about this woman going after her.

 

This had better be dealt with before Thursday because I am out for blood on this one.

[mirth]

Wow. If she would do that kind of damage in public and in full view of everyone with you in the parking lot, I can't even imagine what she would do when she thinks no one is watching her. Hugs to you and and your DD. I would probably call the police, if only to scare the heck out of her and make sure that she realizes how serious this is. I hope her own kids aren't in any danger. Again, just wow.

 

Yes, this. I wanted to ask you (OP) if you know this parent volunteer, and if she appears to have all her marbles? This digging into flesh repeatedly and threatening and chasing just looks like out of control malicious behavior, esp in a roomful of people. I would wonder if it has happened before? If I were to press charges, I think I would go to the magistrate with photos (instead of directly to the police), and ask to swear out a warrant. You need to be careful when speaking to the police since at least one of the two adults in the room will allege that the cut marks were already on her arm when she arrived.

 

If the warrant is written, then the police will arrest this woman wherever she happens to be when they get around to serving it. It could be at her job, in front of her kids. I am not saying any of this at all to make you feel sorry for her, but more along the lines of does she seem like she has all her marbles? These sort of things can really make a normal person resentful for a long time, think of the effect on a crazy person.

[swellmomma]

Thank you for all the support ladies. I am still waiting to hear back from the program supervisor. She was not there on Tuesday night but is in charge of the whole program so I need to talk to her. To answer some questions I saw asked, this woman has 1 teenage daughter. Normally she jsut drops her dd off and visits or volunteers with things like end of teh night clean up. Normally On tuesdays I float between classes helping, on Thursdays I man the door, direct volunteers/parents/kids, help kids struggling etc (I do enough there that the paid staff have commented several times that I they wish they had a paid position for me) This woman decided to help because I was dealing with a sick baby and could not.

 

This program is a free program for low income families, this is where my kids take private music lessons(3 in piano, 1 drum, 1 violin), dance, art, drama, and next term photography). I can not just pull the kids out because 1 parent volunteer did this. The teachers (all university student who volunteer their time), the 2 paid staff, and the rest of the parents who help out are a great group of people and this program has helped my kids a lot, which is why I do so much when I am there to help out.

 

Because I have not heard from the program director yet the kids will miss tonight's class, which sucks, but it is just a chocolate making class and we have done that at home for years. It was more for the chance to have 1 last itme with their friends before xmas break that we were doing the workshops this week.

 

At this time I will not go straight to the police. This program because of it's mandate works with social services a lot (we have group home and foster care kids in the program and their social workers are involved to an extent etc). So I am assuming once I talk to teh program director that she will be discussing the situation with whomever her liason with social services is and we will go from there. I did let her now in voice message that I needed to discuss this before Thurs night and that I expected that this woman would not be allowed near my children or any other children in the program from this point on.

 

The woman did not do this in the view of the parking lot, she did it in the classroom with the door closed, which is why the assistant program director who was in the hallway by teh front doors did not know it was going on. no one came out of class to tell her dd was causing a problem, no one came to get me to deal with her etc. THis woman just decided she had the authority to do this.

 

The reason I explained dd's behaviour leading up to this is because when I told grandma(my mom) what happened instead of being outraged, her first question was "What did C do to bring this on?" So I was beginning to think I was the only one who was this mad. (though given that she accused me of abuse a few weeks ago because I homeschool the kids and needed a break from ds, yet is able to justify this woman's actions should have set bells ringing in my head, but I was too wrapped up in my anger at this woman to deal with that at the time).

 

Anyway, so as it stands right now, the kids are staying home tonight, Classes do not resume until January 11, I am demanding this woman not be allowed to volunteer with the children any longer, depending on how the program director responds I am not going straight to the police at this time, and once classes resume I will be back to working my tail off those nights regardless if someone is ill or not. When I first signed up to volunteer first term it was toprotect the other children from mine, so I could step in and deal with them if their behaviour got out of hand. This is our 3rd year with the program, but they revamped it this year, giving more options for families but also requiring help from families, something they never needed before. I never dreamed I would have to worry about the volunteer's behaviour with my kids, I was worried about how my kids treated others. I will be much more vigilant in future with the volunteers.

[tdeveson]

Wow. If she would do that kind of damage in public and in full view of everyone with you in the parking lot, I can't even imagine what she would do when she thinks no one is watching her. Hugs to you and and your DD. I would probably call the police, if only to scare the heck out of her and make sure that she realizes how serious this is. I hope her own kids aren't in any danger. Again, just wow.

 

This is why I believe the police should be called in. She did this in public to someone else's child. Consider what she's probably doing to her own poor children. The authorities need to know this.

[pqr]

 

DD now has crescent shaped cuts up and down her forearms from this woman.

 

.

 

Were they cuts, as in the skin is broken, or red marks caused by pressure?

[swellmomma]

Were they cuts, as in the skin is broken, or red marks caused by pressure?

 

Both. Today she is down to 3 marks where the woman broke skin, the rest have all disappeared.

[grace'smom]

I'd take her to the doctor right away. I am sure they won't suspect you of abuse if you are the one bringing her in for documentation, as someone else mentioned. Even if you decide not to pursue it, I would take her to the doctor to document it. Especially if you are going back, because the situation could escalate if she finds out you are speaking to the director about her. She sounds very unpredictable and you want to document as much as you can in case something else happens.

 

If this woman has children I would seriously consider calling CPS because people are usually a lot nicer in public than they are behind closed doors. Her children may be at risk, and it only takes one person to set things in motion to help them. At the very least, it sounds like she needs some anger management assistance.

 

It also sounds like the school may be at a legal obligation to call CPS. I am not sure, but it sure would be an appropriate response that might help them in case their were a legal action against them. If I were the director I would certainly be contacting a lawyer to discuss the situation. I mean, aren't they supposed to make sure your children are not hurt by their staff, volunteer or not, while they are in their care? Isn't there some risk to the school here as well? Not that I think you are going to sue them, but just hypothetically, they are supposed to take some sort of action here, right?

[swellmomma]

I'd take her to the doctor right away. I am sure they won't suspect you of abuse if you are the one bringing her in for documentation' date=' as someone else mentioned. Even if you decide not to pursue it, I would take her to the doctor to document it. Especially if you are going back, because the situation could escalate if she finds out you are speaking to the director about her. She sounds very unpredictable and you want to document as much as you can in case something else happens.

 

If this woman has children I would seriously consider calling CPS because people are usually a lot nicer in public than they are behind closed doors. Her children may be at risk, and it only takes one person to set things in motion to help them. At the very least, it sounds like she needs some anger management assistance.

 

It also sounds like the school may be at a legal obligation to call CPS. I am not sure, but it sure would be an appropriate response that might help them in case their were a legal action against them. If I were the director I would certainly be contacting a lawyer to discuss the situation. I mean, aren't they supposed to make sure your children are not hurt by their staff, volunteer or not, while they are in their care? Isn't there some risk to the school here as well? Not that I think you are going to sue them, but just hypothetically, they are supposed to take some sort of action here, right?[/quote']

 

Here in Canada calling CPS would useless in this situation. BEcause she is neither a staff of the program nor did she do this to her own child they will not step in. I am hoping that they may chose to when the director speaks to the social worker affiliated with the program though. She is not a staff of the program, jsut a mom who offered to help when I couldn't, which makes the whole thing sticky. It would be like in a ps classroom and having the parent who offered to stay and help with art class suddenly turn on one of the children. This is not someone who is officially part of the program, or one of the people screened etc, just a mom offering to help in her child's class. I am still furious today and am expecting the director to call me today since I know she has to be in teh office today because the program runs tonight. I told the kids they were not going tonight and as first they were upset and then about 10 minutes later ds was running for the bathroom. And now dd is too. Apparently the stomach bug little dd had on Tuesday has made it to the older 2, so they would not be going tonight anyway.