I'm out of chocoate, coffee, and beer and here I sit behind a locked door crying.....

[CalicoKat]

my Bible Study leader called to say that "we just can't allow your 2 yo to continue to sit with you during core time." She has to go to her class, perhaps until she's comfortable you can volunteer in her class.

 

Gosh, Bible Study was for me. I don't want to babysit a roomful of 2 yo's and not get in on the lesson, small group, fellowship with other woman.

 

She hasn't been disruptive. I pack her a little lunch and she eat quietly while we do the lesson. After the first class when I tried to put her class and they pulled her out because she was sobbing and brought her to me. This separation anxiety has been tough for some reason in the past couple months. Just this Sunday, again, they paged me back to the nursery.

 

I'm soo disappointed, angry, and a bit livid.

[WishboneDawn]

Did you ask why they decided she couldn't stay with you?

 

I'd be tempted to explain to them what you mentioned here, that YOU need the fellowship and time with women.

[CalicoKat]

Did you ask why they decided she couldn't stay with you?

 

I'd be tempted to explain to them what you mentioned here, that YOU need the fellowship and time with women.

"It would give other mom's the idea that they could keep their kids with them. And that's not the enviroment they're trying to create."

[5knights3maidens]

If she is being quiet, why then could she not sit with you? I, myself, see nothing wrong with this. Apparently, your little one is just not ready for a class OR, the teachers just don't want to deal with crying. We just started going to a new church and my 4 yr. old has been horrible with temper tantrums, crying, etc. They pull her right in and I leave. By the time I have to pick her up, she is happy.

I know you want to go to bible study. I was the same way. I'm done watching a room full of kids. It's time I started going myself. Maybe you could find one at night (not necessarily your own church). This is what I am doing for 2 hours ( 2 hr. = drive time also), one night a week at a different church. It's been great! :001_smile:

Oh, I'm out of chocolate/hot chocolate...so I "borrowed" some from from gluten/casien free dd...;)

[CalicoKat]

If she is being quiet, why then could she not sit with you? I, myself, see nothing wrong with this. Apparently, your little one is just not ready for a class OR, the teachers just don't want to deal with crying. We just started going to a new church and my 4 yr. old has been horrible with temper tantrums, crying, etc. They pull her right in and I leave. By the time I have to pick her up, she is happy.

I know you want to go to bible study. I was the same way. I'm done watching a room full of kids. It's time I started going myself. Maybe you could find one at night (not necessarily your own church). This is what I am doing for 2 hours ( 2 hr. = drive time also), one night a week at a different church. It's been great! :001_smile:

Oh, I'm out of chocolate/hot chocolate...so I "borrowed" some from from gluten/casien free dd...;)

I'm OK doing the whole drop off, pull'm in screaming, but they usually come get me or bring her to me so she never has a chance to adjust.

 

She was being an angel while she was with me, truly. I have a few little devils.....but not her.

 

My older kids are going to be so disappointed. They loved doing their companion Bible studies with the friends and me.

[BikeBookBread]

:grouphug:

 

I attend a very large church with a large weekly women's bible study. Traditionally, we have broken down into small groups, with two of those smaller groups being comprised of young-ish moms (I'm 41 -- not youngish, but have little kiddoes).

 

This year they decided (for some good reasons) to blend the groups across the board, so no more "like kind and quality" small groups. I've also noticed a subtle shift in the kiddo policy too. If our child has sniffles, we can no longer even be in attendance...we used to be able to sit in the back of the large gymnasium room where we meet, and occupy our child (I would never put them in childcare when they are sick) with crayons, etc.

 

When we broke down into the smaller groups before, the other Moms completely understood and had NO PROBLEM letting us bring our mildly sniffly or mildly coughing kiddoes into the small groups, but we can't do this at all now. Many moms are going to miss 50% of the Bible study now!

[Garga]

My ideas are a little scattered, but here they are:

 

Maybe the place to start with is the nursery staff? Are they understaffed and can't comfort her for the time it'll take for her to settle down?

 

If they're not understaffed, then who are they? I know that at our daytime bible study, the nursery workers are teenaged girls, who don't always know how to let a child cry long enough to settle down. If a mother is in the nursery, she'd know to let the little one cry a bit.

 

So, if it's teens in there, you might need to let them know that it's ok if dd cries for a set amount of time. (Pick an amount of time.) And sometimes it doesn't help to have mom in the nursery (speaking as someone who's done nursery and preschool Children's Church classes.) It just prolongs it and then when mom finally does leave, the child starts crying again.

 

However, if they're really understaffed, even a seasoned mom might have trouble if there's a child crying for 20 minutes and she can't tend to the others.

 

I don't think I'd give up yet, sweetie. Try to find another solution--but wait until the sadness has lifted and you're ready to tackle this problem.

 

And the only way to get rid of this sadness is to hop in the car with all the kids and go get some chocolate! Stat!!!!

Edited September 28, 2009 by Garga

[ChristusG]

I would be absolutely livid. While I understand that they want this Bible study to be for moms, where they can "get away" with no kid disruptions.... but your child was not disrupting.

 

I have walked in your shoes many times. I have two little girls, both had major seperation anxiety. I mean, what can you expect? I'm home with my little girls 24/7 and to just hand them over to a stranger whom they do not know....I would expect them to be afraid. This is one reason I do not attend the MOPS group in my area. Children are not allowed to stay with the moms. My little girl would be terrified. I have JUST now got her to go into her class at church (she's 2.5). She does start out crying, which breaks my heart, but she stops within a few minutes.

 

Last year she was in a class and the teacher would NOT page me when she kept on crying. I would specifically tell her to page me if she had not stopped crying within 10 minutes. The teacher never did it even though she cried the whole time! So I pulled her out and she never went back to that teacher.

 

I guess I'm just writing to say I know how ya feel!

[Happy]

Well, you know, church and Bible Study aren't about YOU. They are about everyone else. Arrrggghhhh....

 

I'm behind a locked door with a sack of potato chips and a baggie of fruit. I'm deeply unhappy with my church and a few family things. It seems better to hide in here until I quit wanting to rant and rave....

[Aubrey]

Come to my house. Seriously--your 2yo can sit in your lap or mine or play w/ my kids (incl a 2yo). We'll drink tea, do a Bible study if you want, & feel much better afterward.

 

:grouphug:

[Melinda in VT]

I would be absolutely livid. While I understand that they want this Bible study to be for moms, where they can "get away" with no kid disruptions.... but your child was not disrupting.

 

Livid? Really? :001_huh:

 

I can understand being disappointed if the leaders made and enforced a no-kids policy for an adult study group, but it doesn't seem outrageous.

 

Maybe the OP's child was being more disruptive than she thinks. Maybe the OP's child was being good as gold, but the mother of a hellion has mentioned that she'll be bringing her child next week, and the leadership (rightly) doesn't want to be put in the position of determining whose child is well-behaved enough to stay.

 

I empathize with the OP, and I hope some of the other suggestions will help her find a solution so she can keep participating.

[Impish]

Is it possible to find an evening study group, and leave the little one with Daddy?

[OnTheBrink]

Is this a Bible Study Fellowship group? If so, I'm surprised they let you have the child in there to start with. They're very strict with the rules (which is understandable, imo)

 

I'm sorry you're disappointed. It's hard to have a toddler and want to be able to do the adult things. It sounds like, from your OP, that there is a class for her and they suggested sitting with her until she's comfortable, not that you can only come to volunteer every time. I understand separation anxiety and it does pass! But, I can see their point, too. They have provided a place for children so the adults can have the study and fellowship. To be honest, if I had my child in the nursery, I'd be a bit resentful of someone being allowed to have their child in class.

 

Until your child's anxiety passes, could you invite some gals over to do a study? They could bring their children and you could meet at a park or something, do the study and have the dc play. It's not an ideal situation, but it's better than no fellowship at all. OR, just maybe start some "Park Days" once a week or so and invite other moms. You guys can just chat while the dc play.

 

Sometimes, you just have to give up some things for a short time. I've BTDT with both my kids. It's a drag, but it's not fair on the others for rules to bend for one and not everyone else. I can totally understand your pov, but I can see theirs, too.

 

I hope you can find some resolution that works for everyone. :grouphug:

[Denisemomof4]

did any of you ladies HEAR her? She's out of coffee, chocolate and beer! FOCUS, ladies, FOCUS!!! :D

 

 

Seriously, I'm really sorry. I remember how much I TRULY needed that fellowship when my kids were younger. :grouphug: I have also been where you are. My daughter was a GEM in the workout room but they didn't allow her because other moms were upset they couldn't bring their kids in. So I lost out, even though I had special circumstances surrounding needing my daughter in with me.

 

Can you hold a bible study at your house? Can you speak to the nursery and tell them not to come get you, that you're going to let her cry it out until she gets used to it? Mine each only took one time of crying it out the entire time, then it was only a few short weepy moments. How can your dd adjust if she isn't given the opportunity?

:grouphug::grouphug:

[Aubrey]

Livid? Really? :001_huh:

 

I can understand being disappointed if the leaders made and enforced a no-kids policy for an adult study group, but it doesn't seem outrageous.

 

Maybe the OP's child was being more disruptive than she thinks. Maybe the OP's child was being good as gold, but the mother of a hellion has mentioned that she'll be bringing her child next week, and the leadership (rightly) doesn't want to be put in the position of determining whose child is well-behaved enough to stay.

 

I empathize with the OP, and I hope some of the other suggestions will help her find a solution so she can keep participating.

 

Yeah, can be livid sometimes. I mean, maybe OP's 2yo's more disruptive than she realizes, but *imagine* if the little one's NOT.

 

We're talking about church, first. WHY--in the one place where you'd expect family bonds to be a *good* thing--do so many churches demand such absolute severance of everybody in the home? I mean, we left a church because they "strongly discouraged" me from taking my *newborn* into the service w/ me. He wasn't disruptive--he was sleeping. And it was too big of a church for me to be comfortable leaving such a little one in the nursery. And I'm highly paranoid, so if you go telling me what I HAVE to do, I get really, really suspicious, lol.

 

And we're also talking about the mother of a toddler. I seriously think we suffer brain-damage during those years. I've got 4, & 2 of them are toddlers right now. That means I've had 2 toddlers before & not. that. long. ago. Why couldn't I remember that it was this hard? :lol:

 

But time w/ other adults is so precious when your littles get too big to take w/ you wherever you go but not big enough to take w/ you wherever you go. Every. thing. you do centers around their needs. The idea of being *forced* out of something that was supposed to be *for* women in your shoes feels like the last straw.

 

We (as women) can be SO hard on ea other, & sometimes I think it feels worse in churches. Maybe there are extra expectations to live up to or something.

 

And nursery duty? When I have to do it once every 6 weeks, it makes me hyperventilate. I'm around kids 24/7. Please, please, please don't make me do it more. I might have to quit church if you make me do it more, even if it's my fair share. I just. barely. hold it together as it is.

 

But forget "fair share"--she's been told she can "volunteer" in the toddler class for the unforeseeable future. Let me translate. You thought you were going to get an hr of adult conversation, but your 2yo is freaking w/out you. You, in your incredible mommy strength, have worked it out, & magically, she's an angel w/ you in your meeting. But that's. not. good. enough. She has to do what everybody else does & be happy about it. If not, instead of getting an hr away from the insanity of life w/ a toddler, welcome to an hr of 10 toddlers in the same room.

 

I mean, really. Why bother?

 

And it's not JUST that she's been asked not to bring her 2yo into the women's meeting any more. That was bad enough. It's that the woman who called her didn't realize how MEAN it was to invite her to "volunteer" in the toddler class instead.

 

Yes, livid. But it does come at least partly from the emotional destabilization brought on by FT toddlerdom & the ensuing brain damage. :)

 

((OP))

[Happy]

did any of you ladies HEAR her? She's out of coffee, chocolate and beer! FOCUS, ladies, FOCUS!!! :D

 

 

 

 

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

[CalicoKat]

Yeah, can be livid sometimes. I mean, maybe OP's 2yo's more disruptive than she realizes, but *imagine* if the little one's NOT.

 

We're talking about church, first. WHY--in the one place where you'd expect family bonds to be a *good* thing--do so many churches demand such absolute severance of everybody in the home? I mean, we left a church because they "strongly discouraged" me from taking my *newborn* into the service w/ me. He wasn't disruptive--he was sleeping. And it was too big of a church for me to be comfortable leaving such a little one in the nursery. And I'm highly paranoid, so if you go telling me what I HAVE to do, I get really, really suspicious, lol.

 

And we're also talking about the mother of a toddler. I seriously think we suffer brain-damage during those years. I've got 4, & 2 of them are toddlers right now. That means I've had 2 toddlers before & not. that. long. ago. Why couldn't I remember that it was this hard? :lol:

 

But time w/ other adults is so precious when your littles get too big to take w/ you wherever you go but not big enough to take w/ you wherever you go. Every. thing. you do centers around their needs. The idea of being *forced* out of something that was supposed to be *for* women in your shoes feels like the last straw.

 

We (as women) can be SO hard on ea other, & sometimes I think it feels worse in churches. Maybe there are extra expectations to live up to or something.

 

And nursery duty? When I have to do it once every 6 weeks, it makes me hyperventilate. I'm around kids 24/7. Please, please, please don't make me do it more. I might have to quit church if you make me do it more, even if it's my fair share. I just. barely. hold it together as it is.

 

But forget "fair share"--she's been told she can "volunteer" in the toddler class for the unforeseeable future. Let me translate. You thought you were going to get an hr of adult conversation, but your 2yo is freaking w/out you. You, in your incredible mommy strength, have worked it out, & magically, she's an angel w/ you in your meeting. But that's. not. good. enough. She has to do what everybody else does & be happy about it. If not, instead of getting an hr away from the insanity of life w/ a toddler, welcome to an hr of 10 toddlers in the same room.

 

I mean, really. Why bother?

 

And it's not JUST that she's been asked not to bring her 2yo into the women's meeting any more. That was bad enough. It's that the woman who called her didn't realize how MEAN it was to invite her to "volunteer" in the toddler class instead.

 

Yes, livid. But it does come at least partly from the emotional destabilization brought on by FT toddlerdom & the ensuing brain damage. :)

 

((OP))

Thank you. You do have a way with words. :001_smile: And you completely understood. Thank you for the empathy.

 

Stabilizing here with a diet pepsi, fries and a chicken sandwich from BK. Schools out - to my other children's joy who attempted to cheer me up with a repeat 40th bday, "Surprise!" And my son who offered to pay for my coffee at Starbucks if I'd just drive him there.

 

It's not BFS, it's CBS. They have a program for nursery - 12th grade that's specifically for homeschooling families. Although there are many other women who come who aren't homeschoolers too.

[PineFarmMom]

:grouphug::grouphug: I'm sorry!!! I'm going to pray that they change their minds on that.

[Mama Bear]

I so understand. I can't describe how it feels to have the one thing that you were counting on for sanity yanked out from under you, but I'm hearing it in your post.

 

I don't know about their rules, but a mom's group I was involved in allowed kids to come in if they were quiet and stayed still. Or if they needed to be walked/rocked in the back of the room (nurslings). There was grace. But they were firm: noisy kids would not be welcome. Other options would be worked on, including grammas who came specifically to help with tough little ones and SN kids, but the space was for the moms. I loved that group. LOVED it.

 

I am sad for you, dear. ::Passing the virtual mocha::

[8circles]

Well-said Aubrey.

 

I've never understood this kind of attitude regarding activities (especially church-run) for moms with young children. It seems that sometimes the 'ministry' aspect is lost & replaced with being really organized.

[AprilTN]

This is what irks me....If someone brings in a child that is truly disruptive, why can't the leader just tell that person that they need to take them out? I don't like the mentality that the rules are there "in case" they have a certain situation. Or the "one person ruins it for everyone" crap. Why can't the one person just ruin it for the ONE PERSON?

 

My children are quiet as mice when we are in a situation like a Bible study, meeting, etc. If I want to train them to behave and sit quietly, then I should have the benefit of having the option to keep them with me.

 

I wouldn't go back. But that's just me. It would make me nervous that I might have another situation where I had to bring my child in with me, and would feel like I couldn't bring them in after what the leader said.

[Murphy101]

"It would give other mom's the idea that they could keep their kids with them. And that's not the enviroment they're trying to create."

 

Yeah btdt.

 

I go to mass every Sunday I can (or Saturday night if that is what will work out best that weekend) and I come home. I go to confession about once a month.

 

For 14 years I've had little ones and since I haven't hit the jackpot yet, it's not likely that I am going to get a sitter anytime soon so I can volunteer or hang out at a church event that isn't for the entire family.

 

I prefer wine, but here's a virtual home brewed beer from dh's stock to you.:cheers2::grouphug:

[staceyobu]

This is what irks me....If someone brings in a child that is truly disruptive, why can't the leader just tell that person that they need to take them out? I don't like the mentality that the rules are there "in case" they have a certain situation. Or the "one person ruins it for everyone" crap. Why can't the one person just ruin it for the ONE PERSON?

 

My children are quiet as mice when we are in a situation like a Bible study, meeting, etc. If I want to train them to behave and sit quietly, then I should have the benefit of having the option to keep them with me.

 

I wouldn't go back. But that's just me. It would make me nervous that I might have another situation where I had to bring my child in with me, and would feel like I couldn't bring them in after what the leader said.

 

I Totally agree with this. We have a Bible Study with childcare... but the babies usually stay with moms. It's "optional" childcare. Leave your kids if you want, but no pressure. I can absolutely reassure your Bible study leader that one person bringing in a child is not going to make everyone else want to! I am more than happy to dump my 2 year old off on someone else... he's one of the hellions! However, if I'd gone to a study like this when my DD was that age... she would have been fine sitting with me.

 

I'd be really hurt and upset. Is there another group anywhere?

[WishboneDawn]

"It would give other mom's the idea that they could keep their kids with them. And that's not the enviroment they're trying to create."

 

I'm in a lay ministry course where this wouldn't fly. It's a little patronizing. What we'd do (and what I've actually done in terms of bringing my own daughter) is bring it up with the group as a whole and then, as a whole, we discuss it, the problems it might create and then, as a whole, decide what's should happen.

 

Adults in a group should be able to discuss these matters and come to some agreement. Perhaps the group wouldn't want your child there but at least you'd have a chance to make your case and they'd have a chance to express their own views rather then have that whole process dictated to you.

[WishboneDawn]

This is what irks me....If someone brings in a child that is truly disruptive, why can't the leader just tell that person that they need to take them out? I don't like the mentality that the rules are there "in case" they have a certain situation. Or the "one person ruins it for everyone" crap. Why can't the one person just ruin it for the ONE PERSON?

 

It infantilizes the whole group frankly. I mean, those "just in case" rules do assume a group of people isn't capable of reason or common sense after all.

[ChristusG]

Livid? Really? :001_huh:

 

I can understand being disappointed if the leaders made and enforced a no-kids policy for an adult study group, but it doesn't seem outrageous.

 

Maybe the OP's child was being more disruptive than she thinks. Maybe the OP's child was being good as gold, but the mother of a hellion has mentioned that she'll be bringing her child next week, and the leadership (rightly) doesn't want to be put in the position of determining whose child is well-behaved enough to stay.

 

I empathize with the OP, and I hope some of the other suggestions will help her find a solution so she can keep participating.

 

Yes, I would be livid. It seems like so much in this world revolves around "leave your kids at home, find a sitter, send them to daycare, etc." Ya know, I had my kids because I actually enjoy being with them. It's one of the reasons that I homeschool, it's one of the reasons that we do attachment parenting. It just aggravates me when so many "mom" things revolve around leaving your kids out. I know that moms need a break sometimes, but it should be my choice when I take that break. And as long as my kid is not being disruptive, it should not matter to others. Believe me, if my kid makes a peep, we're out of there. My two year old and I sat in at a meeting a few weeks ago. After it was over the speakers actually approached me and raved about how well behaved my daughter was because not many two year olds will sit through a 45 minute meeting without a peep. I walked into this whole parenthood thing knowing that the young years can be filled with the task of having my children with me nearly every second of the day.....and ya know what? I'm okay with that. The young years are far too short and one day they will not want/need me with them every second. So I'm enjoying it while I can. I wish that other "mommy" groups and "womens" groups would see it that way as well. So yes, all that is to say I would be a bit livid LOL. :001_smile:

[5KidzRUs]

First, go get yourself a jar of NUTELLA - it is in the PB&J section usually - Don't waste it by putting it on bread - eat it straight from the jar.

 

I know I am in the minority here - but I agree about no children, for two reasons. First, I remember what it was like to have 5 children; 4 under the age of five. Bible study was my only ADULT time - I really cherished the no-children-adult-only time I had - it was my lifeline. I went there (for bible study and) to get away from toddlers and babies - for a short time - to recharge my batteries.

 

Second, I wanted to be able to talk about sometimes 'adult' subjects - if people brought their children (little parrots) then what was said would not be in confidence and I would not feel comfortable talking about some things in front of them. I know your child is young - but if you bring yours then others with bring theirs or think it unfair that they can't etc etc.

 

I think it is unfair to just cut you out like that though - they should have tried to see if there was a want or a need for a mom and tot bible study group.

 

I used to manage a child care in a church and there were always one of two children that could not be consoled - sometimes (in one case in particular) it took me sitting with the child the ENTIRE service - if I tried to get up the child would cry - I really could not run the snacks and changings etc that way. Eventually the teen siblings started to take turns coming in and sitting with this particular child.

 

Maybe you can get a "Mommys-Helper" to come sit in the nursery with your child?? When mine were little they never went to the nursery alone - I always had an older mommys-helper in there with them.

 

:grouphug: I hope that something productive and good comes out of this incident and you are able to return to your bible study!

[Erica in PA]

I'm sorry you're disappointed, but I would encourage you to please try to let go of your anger over this. There are valid differences of opinion as to whether children should be included in adult Bible studies and similar activities. Some people think all children should be included, some think only very quiet children should be, and some people think that Bible studies are most beneficial when adults are free from the distractions of children altogether. They are all valid opinions. Even though you disagree with the stand of the leadership on this point, please don't allow that disagreement to cause you to sin in bitterness and hard feelings.

 

I don't think they were trying to be hurtful in mentioning volunteering in the nursery as a option, but trying to give you an alternative so that your dd could become more comfortable in the nursery. You don't like that idea, I understand, and you don't have to take that option, but that doesn't mean they had evil motives in offering it.

 

If if were me, I would try letting her get used to the nursery. I have worked in enough nurseries over the years to know that some toddlers who sob hysterically the first week or two can suddenly grow to love nursery in just a couple tries. If she does turn out to be in that small percentage who cannot adjust to it, then I'd probably try helping out in the nursery for awhile to help her, and if that doesn't work, then I'd probably drop out until she's a bit older.

[Erica in PA]

 

And it's not JUST that she's been asked not to bring her 2yo into the women's meeting any more. That was bad enough. It's that the woman who called her didn't realize how MEAN it was to invite her to "volunteer" in the toddler class instead.

 

 

I get where you're coming from, but I have to say that I totally disagree with characterizing the Bible study leader as being "mean" in offering the option of volunteering until her dd adjusts. That is unfair, imo. It wasn't what the OP wants to do, that's fine. She doesn't have to choose that option. But I think that the caller could easily have been well-intentioned in making that suggestion. I think it makes sense, if someone's child is too sad to part with her, that a mother might stay with her for a few weeks to help her adjust. I've seen that done successfully lots of times.

[Aubrey]

I get where you're coming from, but I have to say that I totally disagree with characterizing the Bible study leader as being "mean" in offering the option of volunteering until her dd adjusts. That is unfair, imo. It wasn't what the OP wants to do, that's fine. She doesn't have to choose that option. But I think that the caller could easily have been well-intentioned in making that suggestion. I think it makes sense, if someone's child is too sad to part with her, that a mother might stay with her for a few weeks to help her adjust. I've seen that done successfully lots of times.

 

If I were speaking to the caller, I wouldn't use the term "mean." That's how you talk to someone who's feeling emotional. It's a little bit tongue-in-cheek, but frankly, that's the best word to describe how someone who called & said this to me would have made me feel.

 

A more rational way to put it--IF I were in a situation where I felt I needed to be rational--would be that the caller displayed tunnel-vision or a lack of consideration for her audience.

 

She could have been gentler in her delivery of very disappointing information. She could have said, "I'm so sorry to have to ask you not to bring your sweet 2yo any more. She's been as quiet as a mouse (if she has been), but we're concerned that some people might see her there & think it's ok to bring *sick* children w/ them to the meeting. (For ex.)

 

"I know you tried taking 2yo to the nursery, & she had a hard time. I wonder if it might be helpful for you to stay there w/ her once or twice or maybe just part of the time? Maybe that would help her get used to the workers/environment/etc?"

 

See the difference? It's about helping OP w/ a problem while resolving an issue w/ the Bible study. It's not about her "volunteering" in the toddler room. It still stinks. It just stinks slightly less.

[Carol in Cal.]

They should have figured out the rules up front and made them completely clear before starting.

 

There are Bible studies that are designed for mothers and babies under 3. I believe that there is one based on "Right From the Start" that is really attachment parenting oriented.

 

I think that it's unreasonable to count on all two year olds to sit through an adult class, and it's unreasonable to count on all two year olds to quietly accept being put into a nursery with a stranger. Shoot, there are a lot of 3 and 4 year olds that can't do either one!

 

The leadership should have known this and made something clear.

 

FWIW, in our Sunday school the youngest welcomed children are 3 years old. At the openings they can bring their parents. At the class itself they are expected to leave their parents behind, but I think that if a parent wanted to be present it would be allowed as long as he was quiet. We have free baby sitting available for kids 3 and under, in a safe space, during the Bible study hour and during the church services. Parents do not bring their children into adult Bible class that I can remember--it's just not done. But if someone had an infant that they wanted to bring in, everyone would smile. Still, it would be sort of gently expected that if the child became disruptive the parent would take them out.

 

During the church service, we do so many things--stand up, sit down, sing, pray, listen--that kids tend to be somewhat engaged. We prefer that kids be present in worship, but it's a lot of work for the parents, I know. We do provide the nursery worker for children under 5, but we encourage parents to keep their children with them for worship as much as possible. We don't expect the youngest kids to be perfectly quiet, although if someone is really screaming their parents always take them out--and often when they don't really need to as well. I, personally, go to see parents who have taken their infants out and tell them how much I love to see babies in church, and that I couldn't hear theirs at all. Most of the time the parents are more sensitive than the congregation.

 

I think that we are really fortunate to be in a medium sized church where policies can be a bit flexible, and where everyone kind of pitches in to be mutually respectful and thoughtful.

[Scarlett]

my Bible Study leader called to say that "we just can't allow your 2 yo to continue to sit with you during core time." She has to go to her class, perhaps until she's comfortable you can volunteer in her class.

 

Gosh, Bible Study was for me. I don't want to babysit a roomful of 2 yo's and not get in on the lesson, small group, fellowship with other woman.

 

She hasn't been disruptive. I pack her a little lunch and she eat quietly while we do the lesson. After the first class when I tried to put her class and they pulled her out because she was sobbing and brought her to me. This separation anxiety has been tough for some reason in the past couple months. Just this Sunday, again, they paged me back to the nursery.

 

I'm soo disappointed, angry, and a bit livid.

 

That is....terrible. In our congregation children stay with their parents.

[OnTheBrink]

 

I know I am in the minority here - but I agree about no children, for two reasons. First, I remember what it was like to have 5 children; 4 under the age of five. Bible study was my only ADULT time - I really cherished the no-children-adult-only time I had - it was my lifeline. I went there (for bible study and) to get away from toddlers and babies - for a short time - to recharge my batteries.

 

Second, I wanted to be able to talk about sometimes 'adult' subjects - if people brought their children (little parrots) then what was said would not be in confidence and I would not feel comfortable talking about some things in front of them. I know your child is young - but if you bring yours then others with bring theirs or think it unfair that they can't etc etc.

 

 

:grouphug: I hope that something productive and good comes out of this incident and you are able to return to your bible study!

 

:iagree:

[Supertechmom]

Or the "one person ruins it for everyone" crap. Why can't the one person just ruin it for the ONE PERSON?

 

 

 

 

:iagree::iagree::iagree:

 

they should have tried to see if there was a want or a need for a mom and tot bible study group.

 

 

 

Why don't churches do this???

[rwjx2khsmj]

{{{{{{{{{{OP}}}}}}}}}}}}

 

I've been in your shoes (booted from Bible study due to kid issues) and it's hard to reconcile. I've had to forgo or drop too many times to count because of family factors in conflict with Bible study policies.

 

Currently, my oldest dd is no longer allowed to attend our Bible study because she can't commit to being there each week. My thought was better some than none. Apparently not. Thankfully, she's old enough to stay home alone so the rest of us are still able to attend.

 

It makes you wonder about the need for such policies and how they are really better for "everyone". I mean really WWJD?!

[lionfamily1999]

"It would give other mom's the idea that they could keep their kids with them. And that's not the enviroment they're trying to create."

I sort of understand this. It's the slippery slope thing... YOUR kid is okay, but once we allow yours we have to allow everybody's and then you end up with a mommy play date, instead of a bible study.

 

I'm sorry your little is having such a tough time with separation. Is there anything else church related you could go to (during the week), so she can practice being away from you and get used to the idea of you leaving, but always coming back again?

[JennifersLost]

As a former child care provider and someone who has dealt with groups, etc., I would advise taking things into your own hands.

 

You've realized your child has separation anxiety and hasn't practiced being apart from you, so start there.

 

Hire a sitter once or twice a week or swap with a friend to practice being with another adult until she's comfortable with it in your own home.

 

Then graduate to a small, short class situation that your child will really like. Practice "quick" drop-offs (hanging around while your child cries is the kiss of death - it tells your child that you're worried, too.).

 

At first, only stay away for ten or fifteen minutes. Gradually build up to longer periods of time.

 

Then, when she's ready, go back to bible study. As someone who has run (non-bible) classes, the reason for the no-kid rule is obvious to me. You can't have a "real" grownup class with kids in attendance. And if your kid is allowed to stay, then all kids have to be allowed to stay.

 

I wonder if what's really making you sad is you feel like you need the bible study RIGHT NOW and anything that keeps you away from it is overwhelming. Could you pair up with a few other moms who might be in your shoes during this short time your daughter is young and study with them at your house? That way you have fellowship without stress while you are teaching your child the confidence to be away from you. The separation anxiety won't last too long if you teach your daughter these skills.

[ConnieB]

:grouphug:

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Woodhaven]

Very sorry to hear this. I understand your need to be with adult women and enjoy the Bible Study!

 

In my opinion, it has a lot to do with our culture's view of children, I think. We have encountered it on Sundays at church services too. For some reason, people think children need to be grouped with their peers all the time. I LIKE having our children with us and think they have opportunity to learn along with us (parents & adults). Some will certainly disagree, but I think entertaining children all the time while parents study/worship is detrimental to their growth in the faith.

 

That said, we parents do need a break sometimes, and at times the subject matter is inappropriate for children. But very young children who are quiet should be welcome. Just my 2 cents.

[Carol in Cal.]

In my opinion, it has a lot to do with our culture's view of children, I think. We have encountered it on Sundays at church services too. For some reason, people think children need to be grouped with their peers all the time. I LIKE having our children with us and think they have opportunity to learn along with us (parents & adults). Some will certainly disagree, but I think entertaining children all the time while parents study/worship is detrimental to their growth in the faith.

 

 

I agree with this for church services. One of my take no prisoner, accept no excuses requirements for a church is one in which families generally worship together. Our church does have a nursery for kids under 5, but I almost never used it. Children need God to come to them in worship, too.

[phathui5]

It's that the woman who called her didn't realize how MEAN it was to invite her to "volunteer" in the toddler class instead.

 

Seriously. That's the exact opposite of peaceful adult time.

[FO4UR]

"It would give other mom's the idea that they could keep their kids with them. And that's not the enviroment they're trying to create."

 

...then that may not be an environment where I want to be.

 

 

Yeah, can be livid sometimes. I mean, maybe OP's 2yo's more disruptive than she realizes, but *imagine* if the little one's NOT.

 

We're talking about church, first. WHY--in the one place where you'd expect family bonds to be a *good* thing--do so many churches demand such absolute severance of everybody in the home? I mean, we left a church because they "strongly discouraged" me from taking my *newborn* into the service w/ me. He wasn't disruptive--he was sleeping. And it was too big of a church for me to be comfortable leaving such a little one in the nursery. And I'm highly paranoid, so if you go telling me what I HAVE to do, I get really, really suspicious, lol.

 

And we're also talking about the mother of a toddler. I seriously think we suffer brain-damage during those years. I've got 4, & 2 of them are toddlers right now. That means I've had 2 toddlers before & not. that. long. ago. Why couldn't I remember that it was this hard? :lol:

 

But time w/ other adults is so precious when your littles get too big to take w/ you wherever you go but not big enough to take w/ you wherever you go. Every. thing. you do centers around their needs. The idea of being *forced* out of something that was supposed to be *for* women in your shoes feels like the last straw.

 

We (as women) can be SO hard on ea other, & sometimes I think it feels worse in churches. Maybe there are extra expectations to live up to or something.

 

And nursery duty? When I have to do it once every 6 weeks, it makes me hyperventilate. I'm around kids 24/7. Please, please, please don't make me do it more. I might have to quit church if you make me do it more, even if it's my fair share. I just. barely. hold it together as it is.

 

But forget "fair share"--she's been told she can "volunteer" in the toddler class for the unforeseeable future. Let me translate. You thought you were going to get an hr of adult conversation, but your 2yo is freaking w/out you. You, in your incredible mommy strength, have worked it out, & magically, she's an angel w/ you in your meeting. But that's. not. good. enough. She has to do what everybody else does & be happy about it. If not, instead of getting an hr away from the insanity of life w/ a toddler, welcome to an hr of 10 toddlers in the same room.

 

I mean, really. Why bother?

 

And it's not JUST that she's been asked not to bring her 2yo into the women's meeting any more. That was bad enough. It's that the woman who called her didn't realize how MEAN it was to invite her to "volunteer" in the toddler class instead.

 

Yes, livid. But it does come at least partly from the emotional destabilization brought on by FT toddlerdom & the ensuing brain damage. :)

 

((OP))

 

:iagree:

 

:grouphug: Passing you a few homemade chocolate chip cookies!

[Tutor]

It just aggravates me when so many "mom" things revolve around leaving your kids out.

 

:iagree: with ChristusG and Aubrey. Bible Study (just like "quiet" times) don't look the same for moms of preschoolers as they do for moms of teens or moms of grown children or moms of infants. They just don't.

[joannqn]

Last year she was in a class and the teacher would NOT page me when she kept on crying. I would specifically tell her to page me if she had not stopped crying within 10 minutes. The teacher never did it even though she cried the whole time! So I pulled her out and she never went back to that teacher.

 

Oooh! You don't even want to know how angry I would be if I found out this happened. Any time I leave one of my kids, at any age, with a teacher I ask them to call me if my child gets upset. The most recent time I left my 2 year old, he wasn't very happy about it so I asked them to call if needed. They said that they usually wait 10 minutes and I told them it was too long...more like 2 minutes. I would not have left if I didn't feel like they would honor that...and I left my 9 year old with him so I knew he'd be ok. Her class was full so she had no where to go that day and was fine staying with him.

 

And nursery duty? When I have to do it once every 6 weeks, it makes me hyperventilate. I'm around kids 24/7. Please, please, please don't make me do it more. I might have to quit church if you make me do it more, even if it's my fair share. I just. barely. hold it together as it is.

 

I'm the same way. We left our church about 2 years ago for several reasons. Back then, they had just started requiring nursery duty once a quarter. We've just returned, in part because I didn't want my children growing up without church and they like our church. Now nursery duty is monthly.

 

I have a few problems with it. For one, I don't like other people's kids all that much. Do you really want someone who doesn't enjoy being around children taking care of the kids? The other issue is that I have a 2 month old. Their answer to this last time we were there (and I had an infant) was to have me serve in the infant nursery. That makes no logical sense. I'm not going to put my child down on a dirty, germy baby holder so she can cry while I pick up someone else's crying infant who may be carrying some germ that I really don't want to bring home (ie. RSV). Nope, I sit there and hold my child and watch the now understaffed nursery workers juggle the increased workload. Makes a lot of sense doesn't it?

 

Personally, I think it is better to ask people to serve where they are most gifted at.

 

I've never understood this kind of attitude regarding activities (especially church-run) for moms with young children. It seems that sometimes the 'ministry' aspect is lost & replaced with being really organized.

 

:iagree:

 

I get where you're coming from, but I have to say that I totally disagree with characterizing the Bible study leader as being "mean" in offering the option of volunteering until her dd adjusts. That is unfair, imo. It wasn't what the OP wants to do, that's fine. She doesn't have to choose that option. But I think that the caller could easily have been well-intentioned in making that suggestion. I think it makes sense, if someone's child is too sad to part with her, that a mother might stay with her for a few weeks to help her adjust. I've seen that done successfully lots of times.

 

It isn't necessarily only going to be a few weeks. I've sat in nurseries with my children and missed more than a year of church. I sit in the service with my baby until they are about 6 months old and get too loud. Then I sit in the nursery with them until they are ready to enjoy themselves there without any upset. That was at ages 18 months, 13 months, and 24 months, respectively. That is my choice and I accept that for Sunday school. I avoid all other child-unfriendly church activities though.

[Kate CA]

First, go get yourself a jar of NUTELLA - it is in the PB&J section usually - Don't waste it by putting it on bread - eat it straight from the jar.

 

I know I am in the minority here - but I agree about no children, for two reasons. First, I remember what it was like to have 5 children; 4 under the age of five. Bible study was my only ADULT time - I really cherished the no-children-adult-only time I had - it was my lifeline. I went there (for bible study and) to get away from toddlers and babies - for a short time - to recharge my batteries.

 

Second, I wanted to be able to talk about sometimes 'adult' subjects - if people brought their children (little parrots) then what was said would not be in confidence and I would not feel comfortable talking about some things in front of them. I know your child is young - but if you bring yours then others with bring theirs or think it unfair that they can't etc etc.

 

I think it is unfair to just cut you out like that though - they should have tried to see if there was a want or a need for a mom and tot bible study group.

 

I used to manage a child care in a church and there were always one of two children that could not be consoled - sometimes (in one case in particular) it took me sitting with the child the ENTIRE service - if I tried to get up the child would cry - I really could not run the snacks and changings etc that way. Eventually the teen siblings started to take turns coming in and sitting with this particular child.

 

Maybe you can get a "Mommys-Helper" to come sit in the nursery with your child?? When mine were little they never went to the nursery alone - I always had an older mommys-helper in there with them.

 

:grouphug: I hope that something productive and good comes out of this incident and you are able to return to your bible study!

 

:iagree: Good post with helpful information! :001_smile:

[Kate CA]

I'm sorry you're disappointed, but I would encourage you to please try to let go of your anger over this. There are valid differences of opinion as to whether children should be included in adult Bible studies and similar activities. Some people think all children should be included, some think only very quiet children should be, and some people think that Bible studies are most beneficial when adults are free from the distractions of children altogether. They are all valid opinions. Even though you disagree with the stand of the leadership on this point, please don't allow that disagreement to cause you to sin in bitterness and hard feelings.

 

I don't think they were trying to be hurtful in mentioning volunteering in the nursery as a option, but trying to give you an alternative so that your dd could become more comfortable in the nursery. You don't like that idea, I understand, and you don't have to take that option, but that doesn't mean they had evil motives in offering it.

 

If if were me, I would try letting her get used to the nursery. I have worked in enough nurseries over the years to know that some toddlers who sob hysterically the first week or two can suddenly grow to love nursery in just a couple tries. If she does turn out to be in that small percentage who cannot adjust to it, then I'd probably try helping out in the nursery for awhile to help her, and if that doesn't work, then I'd probably drop out until she's a bit older.

 

Beautiful post, Erica. :001_smile:

[ChristusG]

 

It isn't necessarily only going to be a few weeks. I've sat in nurseries with my children and missed more than a year of church. I sit in the service with my baby until they are about 6 months old and get too loud. Then I sit in the nursery with them until they are ready to enjoy themselves there without any upset. That was at ages 18 months, 13 months, and 24 months, respectively. That is my choice and I accept that for Sunday school. I avoid all other child-unfriendly church activities though.

 

Yep, that's us. We've been out of a Sunday School class for over two years now. We just go to the service (I do not put my babies into the nursery when they are small, and then when they get a bit older there is seperation anxiety). My 2 year old has just began going into her sunday school class with minimal fuss.

[Joanne]

Wow. Great thread. I mean, not the feelings of the OP ((((hugs)))) for those. But the differing and respectfully offered viewpoints!

 

I, too, grow weary of the culturally accepted viewpoint that putting distance between parents and children is the commonly accepted idea. I once wrote a blog post about it when I was the Happy Homeschooler. It talked about how profit has been put between parents and children, how 85% of the products in Babys R Us are child-parent spacers, and named the disease superfluparents. (It's now being used against me in court although my xh was with me when it was written and agreed. I digress......)

 

The irony of Jesus' words "let the children come" and the age segregated church programs :lol::001_huh:;):glare: ......

 

I was once in a LLL group that asked a member to either "not" or "tone down" breastfeeding her older child/baby in meetings.:confused: It kind of reminds me of that.

 

 

OTOH, I completely get the other "side". I think sometimes because I was an attachment parent, because I homeschool mine (and others!), because I teach parenting and have returned to higher learning to get some intials behind my name to be able to *really* teach parenting, people assume I like kids. I.really.don't. I just figure that since I have them and kids are a reality, we need to do the best we can with, for and around them.

 

When I attend an adult type function and there are other people's children (even wonderfully quiet and behaved OPC), I can't turn off my mommy and daycare 'dar and *be*, *enjoy*, *participate* or relax.

 

I also don't think it's ever as simple as:

 

1) Use a nursery

 

2) I love my kids and don't want to be apart from them

 

I think to hold either view staunchly misses the mark. Some kids (and or some parents) *need* some space. Indeed, maybe Jesus could welcome the littles *because* he was able to go off with his adults regularly. ;)

 

OTOH, not every parent *needs* that space at to the same degree. Even as a space, autonomous loving mom of 3 closely spaced kids, I pretty much had a child slung on my body for a 6 year stretch. I survived.

 

{{{{{OP}}}}} I get it. I really do. Your baby sounds like a sweetie. I hope you find a solution that meets your needs and parenting ideas.

[6packofun]

I agree! My older kids *serve* their mother by volunteering in the preschool class with their 3yo brother who still has separation issues. They did it for my next youngest child, too, so that I could sit in the service and be spiritually fed. Win-win situation, if it works, IMO!

[Cindyg]

my Bible Study leader called to say that "we just can't allow your 2 yo to continue to sit with you during core time."

 

I had the same experience when mine was a newborn, sound asleep in his carrier. Except in my case, they didn't even offer childcare for kids until they were old enough to participate in the children's Bible study.

 

I never went back. Just not friendly and not realistic.

 

I've certainly been to other Bible studies. Just not that one.