Thought you all would be interested in this little exchange ...

[ekarl2]

So, I'm on a listserv with grammar-types, mostly high school and college teachers. Somehow the messages got on the topic of homeschoolers and this message was sent to the group:

 

"Contrary to some of your beliefs, home-schoolers are not just those who have religious preferences or high standards--students are often home schooled because NO OTHER SCHOOL WILL TAKE THEM. They have serious discipline problems, and unfortunately, they usually make their way back to the public school system when their parents realize that we teachers do a difficult job of managing their "angels." If only the public knew what public school classrooms have to deal with--they might understand our low performance levels."

So, OF COURSE, I had to respond. I hope you like it!

 

"They" do understand the reasons for the low performance levels, but that doesn't mean they want their kids in those classrooms.

 

What you've said is completely NOT true. I spend my entire summer with homeschool parents and kids all across the country. While there may be a few here or there who fit this description, classifying it as "often" is a joke. If, by your account, no other public school will take them, how do they end up back there, hmm?

 

Your statement is as accurate as this one:

Contrary to some of your beliefs, public school teachers are not just those who want to make a difference in the life of a child or serve the public--they often work in the public schools because NO OTHER SCHOOL WILL TAKE THEM. They are not good at their jobs and like to be safe from firing (since tenure makes them impossible to get rid of, even if they're incompetent).

 

How does THAT feel?

 

Why are public school teachers so threatened by homeschoolers? Is institutional education really THAT fantastic? It only began a few hundred years ago. Many of those classics we teach and revere were written by men and women taught at home. I am a public school teacher, but I'm not threatened in the least. I know I'll always have a job if I want one because I'm good at what I do. Thankfully those HORRIBLE homeschoolers pay enough money for our grammar program that I can afford to stay home with my small children and run our company.

 

All those wonderful, SUBSTANTIVE education classes we took to get our credentials were mostly drivel, if we're to be honest with ourselves. Our training is in teaching large groups of kids at one time. Take that away and almost anyone who wants to put the effort in (through workshops, great curricula, training, support groups, co-ops, etc.) can teach. Let us not flatter ourselves.

 

Erin Karl

Analytical Grammar

 

 

You like???:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

Edited August 31, 2009 by ekarl2

[Dinsfamily]

So, I'm on a listserv with grammar-teachers, mostly high school and college. Somehow the messages got on the topic of homeschoolers and this message was sent to the group:

 

"Contrary to some of your beliefs, home-schoolers are not just those who have religious preferences or high standards--students are often home schooled because NO OTHER SCHOOL WILL TAKE THEM. They have serious discipline problems, and unfortunately, they usually make their way back to the public school system when their parents realize that we teachers do a difficult job of managing their "angels." If only the public knew what public school classrooms have to deal with--they might understand our low performance levels."

 

So, OF COURSE, I had to respond. I hope you like it!

 

"They" do understand the reasons for the low performance levels, but that doesn't mean they want their kids in those classrooms.

 

What you've said is completely NOT true. I spend my entire summer with homeschool parents and kids all across the country. While there may be a few here or there who fit this description, classifying it as "often" is a joke. If, by your account, no other public school will take them, how do they end up back there, hmm?

 

Your statement is as accurate as this one:

Contrary to some of your beliefs, public school teachers are not just those who want to make a difference in the life of a child or serve the public--they often work in the public schools because NO OTHER SCHOOL WILL TAKE THEM. They are not good at their jobs and like to be safe from firing (since tenure makes them impossible to get rid of, even if they're incompetent).

 

How does THAT feel?

 

Why are public school teachers so threatened by homeschoolers? Is institutional education really THAT fantastic? It only began a few hundred years ago. Many of those classics we teach and revere were written by men and women taught at home. I am a public school teacher, but I'm not threatened in the least. I know I'll always have a job if I want one because I'm good at what I do. Thankfully those HORRIBLE homeschoolers pay enough money for our grammar program that I can afford to stay home with my small children and run our company.

 

All those wonderful, SUBSTANTIVE education classes we took to get our credentials were mostly drivel, if we're to be honest with ourselves. Our training is in teaching large groups of kids at one time. Take that away and almost anyone who wants to put the effort in (through workshops, great curricula, training, support groups, co-ops, etc.) can teach. Let us not flatter ourselves.

 

Erin Karl

Analytical Grammar

 

 

You like???:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

 

Love! :D

[i.love.lucy]

Love it! :hurray:

 

What response have you had?

[I talk to the trees]

:hurray: WTG! And you said it much more sweetly than I would have!

 

-Robin

[ekarl2]

:hurray: WTG! And you said it much more sweetly than I would have!

 

-Robin

 

Good, I hope she takes it sweetly! I didn't want to be a wench, but I couldn't BELIEVE what she said! I haven't gotten a response yet ... should be interesting!

[ekarl2]

Some other lady emailed me off list to tell me I should apologize for my "tone." LOL!

[Jean too]

Yes, I like. Thanks for standing up for us.

[TraceyS/FL]

So, I'm on a listserv with grammar-types, mostly high school and college teachers. Somehow the messages got on the topic of homeschoolers and this message was sent to the group:

 

"Contrary to some of your beliefs, home-schoolers are not just those who have religious preferences or high standards--students are often home schooled because NO OTHER SCHOOL WILL TAKE THEM. They have serious discipline problems, and unfortunately, they usually make their way back to the public school system when their parents realize that we teachers do a difficult job of managing their "angels." If only the public knew what public school classrooms have to deal with--they might understand our low performance levels."

So, OF COURSE, I had to respond. I hope you like it!

 

"They" do understand the reasons for the low performance levels, but that doesn't mean they want their kids in those classrooms.

 

What you've said is completely NOT true. I spend my entire summer with homeschool parents and kids all across the country. While there may be a few here or there who fit this description, classifying it as "often" is a joke. If, by your account, no other public school will take them, how do they end up back there, hmm?

 

Your statement is as accurate as this one:

Contrary to some of your beliefs, public school teachers are not just those who want to make a difference in the life of a child or serve the public--they often work in the public schools because NO OTHER SCHOOL WILL TAKE THEM. They are not good at their jobs and like to be safe from firing (since tenure makes them impossible to get rid of, even if they're incompetent).

 

How does THAT feel?

 

Why are public school teachers so threatened by homeschoolers? Is institutional education really THAT fantastic? It only began a few hundred years ago. Many of those classics we teach and revere were written by men and women taught at home. I am a public school teacher, but I'm not threatened in the least. I know I'll always have a job if I want one because I'm good at what I do. Thankfully those HORRIBLE homeschoolers pay enough money for our grammar program that I can afford to stay home with my small children and run our company.

 

All those wonderful, SUBSTANTIVE education classes we took to get our credentials were mostly drivel, if we're to be honest with ourselves. Our training is in teaching large groups of kids at one time. Take that away and almost anyone who wants to put the effort in (through workshops, great curricula, training, support groups, co-ops, etc.) can teach. Let us not flatter ourselves.

 

Erin Karl

Analytical Grammar

 

 

You like???:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

 

Thank you Erin! I appreciate you sticking up for "us", and for being honest about being a PS Teacher.

 

Some other lady emailed me off list to tell me I should apologize for my "tone." LOL!

 

Your tone? Shouldn't the other lady apologize for HER tone?

 

Here is hoping you don't get thrown off!

[lulubelle]

That was pretty darn good!

[Kfamily]

Wow! Thank you!:001_smile:

[ekarl2]

Thank you Erin! I appreciate you sticking up for "us", and for being honest about being a PS Teacher.

 

 

 

Your tone? Shouldn't the other lady apologize for HER tone?

 

Here is hoping you don't get thrown off!

 

I hope I don't get thrown off, either. You're right, though. I thought her tone was divisive and completely condescending.

[Jen in PA]

That made my day:001_smile:

[WyoSylvia]

Some other lady emailed me off list to tell me I should apologize for my "tone." LOL!

 

Wow, your "tone" sounded to me like "hey, let's have a little humility around here." I thought you very accurately pointed out the insulting nature of the first post and finished with just a proper admonition.

[caitlinsmom]

:) Love it! I can't wait to read the response you get.

[aggieamy]

Good for you! We need more people that can eloquently stand up for homeschoolers. She sounds like a huge jerk. :glare:

[bkpan]

So, I'm on a listserv with grammar-types, mostly high school and college teachers. Somehow the messages got on the topic of homeschoolers and this message was sent to the group:

 

"Contrary to some of your beliefs, home-schoolers are not just those who have religious preferences or high standards--students are often home schooled because NO OTHER SCHOOL WILL TAKE THEM. They have serious discipline problems, and unfortunately, they usually make their way back to the public school system when their parents realize that we teachers do a difficult job of managing their "angels." If only the public knew what public school classrooms have to deal with--they might understand our low performance levels."

So, OF COURSE, I had to respond. I hope you like it!

 

"They" do understand the reasons for the low performance levels, but that doesn't mean they want their kids in those classrooms.

 

What you've said is completely NOT true. I spend my entire summer with homeschool parents and kids all across the country. While there may be a few here or there who fit this description, classifying it as "often" is a joke. If, by your account, no other public school will take them, how do they end up back there, hmm?

 

Your statement is as accurate as this one:

Contrary to some of your beliefs, public school teachers are not just those who want to make a difference in the life of a child or serve the public--they often work in the public schools because NO OTHER SCHOOL WILL TAKE THEM. They are not good at their jobs and like to be safe from firing (since tenure makes them impossible to get rid of, even if they're incompetent).

 

How does THAT feel?

 

Why are public school teachers so threatened by homeschoolers? Is institutional education really THAT fantastic? It only began a few hundred years ago. Many of those classics we teach and revere were written by men and women taught at home. I am a public school teacher, but I'm not threatened in the least. I know I'll always have a job if I want one because I'm good at what I do. Thankfully those HORRIBLE homeschoolers pay enough money for our grammar program that I can afford to stay home with my small children and run our company.

 

All those wonderful, SUBSTANTIVE education classes we took to get our credentials were mostly drivel, if we're to be honest with ourselves. Our training is in teaching large groups of kids at one time. Take that away and almost anyone who wants to put the effort in (through workshops, great curricula, training, support groups, co-ops, etc.) can teach. Let us not flatter ourselves.

 

Erin Karl

Analytical Grammar

 

 

You like???:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

 

I read and reread her post a few times, and I must confess that I am hard-pressed to find the offense??:confused:

 

I thought that she acknowledged that there are home schoolers that educate for religious reasons (TRUE!), for academic excellence (TRUE!), and because their children have problems in the classroom (TRUE!). Then, she mentioned that some of these kids who have discipline problems are returned to the classroom (also TRUE!) because the parents have difficulty dealing with them.

 

Frankly, I have no idea how many of the public school teachers get through the day. My job is hard, but I take much joy in the work. I have nothing but sympathy for what the public school system has to deal with.

 

Sorry, but I often react to the us vs. them defensiveness. It. just. isnt. necessary. The poster on your list did not seem to want to cause offense.

 

Kim

[QueenCat]

I think the word "often" is the part that makes it offensive.

 

I read and reread her post a few times, and I must confess that I am hard-pressed to find the offense??:confused:

 

I thought that she acknowledged that there are home schoolers that educate for religious reasons (TRUE!), for academic excellence (TRUE!), and because their children have problems in the classroom (TRUE!). Then, she mentioned that some of these kids who have discipline problems are returned to the classroom (also TRUE!) because the parents have difficulty dealing with them.

 

Frankly, I have no idea how many of the public school teachers get through the day. My job is hard, but I take much joy in the work. I have nothing but sympathy for what the public school system has to deal with.

 

Sorry, but I often react to the us vs. them defensiveness. It. just. isnt. necessary. The poster on your list did not seem to want to cause offense.

 

Kim

[Stacie]

You like???:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

 

 

I agree with what you are trying to convey and I didn't detect a "tone" at all. Thank you for responding in such a courteous manner.

 

Unfortunately, my experience with many family members and friends teaching in the public school and state university systems have lead me to see many common stereotypes of homeschoolers. This is one I've encountered. One thing I've learned is that logical arguments seldom work and it's the ancedotal ones that will change their perception over time. If they are openminded enough to see past their percptions.

 

But you know what? I've met homeschoolers with some pretty strongly held stereotypes of public and privately schooled children, too. For this reason I tend to lean toward the "let's show them they are wrong instead of tell them they are wrong" attitude. I've seen a drastic change in ideology with some of my relatives who were downright hostile when we began our homeschooling journey seven years ago. They've recently been inviting me to some interesting teacher workshops conducted by different organizations within the community. They will gather information for me if they think I will be interested in incorporating a certain topic in our school. I'm excited they've been coming around by seeing our success!

 

Interestingly enough, those who still have an attitude similar to the lady on the listserv are not happy with their career. When they say things that seem to be directed toward me and make me want to defend what I've chosen to do, I'll instead take the high road and not engage them. I tell myself it's because they don't like what they do and wonder why on earth someone would choose it as a lifestyle without a paycheck!

 

I wish I had the presence of mind to speak as well as you do, Erin, because I just might engage with them more often! :) Instead I have to rely on our successes to speak for themselves.

[bkpan]

I think the word "often" is the part that makes it offensive.

 

But that is probably her experience, no? Perhaps she has had more experience with undisciplined kids whom she has seen returned to the class room. If that is the case, then I would think a gentle response of encouragement would have made a much deeper impact on the op and other teachers on her list.

 

Again, I guess that I just feel sorry for what many public school teachers have to deal with on a daily basis. It seems that they get way more criticism than support :sad:

 

Kim

[Lovedtodeath]

I agree that the teacher using the word often and angels was very combative. That said, I wouldn't exactly call Erin's reply courteous.

 

I will be interested to see how this plays out. Thanks for standing up for the facts Erin.

[Saille]

I read and reread her post a few times, and I must confess that I am hard-pressed to find the offense??:confused:

 

I thought that she acknowledged that there are home schoolers that educate for religious reasons (TRUE!), for academic excellence (TRUE!), and because their children have problems in the classroom (TRUE!). Then, she mentioned that some of these kids who have discipline problems are returned to the classroom (also TRUE!) because the parents have difficulty dealing with them.

 

Frankly, I have no idea how many of the public school teachers get through the day. My job is hard, but I take much joy in the work. I have nothing but sympathy for what the public school system has to deal with.

 

Sorry, but I often react to the us vs. them defensiveness. It. just. isnt. necessary. The poster on your list did not seem to want to cause offense.

 

Kim

 

I see what you're saying, Kim, but I'm actually somewhat nonplussed that the OP'er doesn't seem to differentiate between "homeschooling", which involves a parental decision to remove a child from public school and take over that child's education, and "home instruction". This is a term used by some states to describe a situation in which a child with behavior problems (although it's also employed for children with serious health problems and expectant moms) is no longer welcome at school, and receives a set amount of tutoring a week by a certified home instructor who works for the district on a consulting basis.

 

I'm sure some parents pull their kids out before home instruction in an issue, but they're two different things. When a child on home instruction comes back to school, it's usually a decision by those in charge of disciplinary matters or an IEP team. It doesn't have a thing to do with the parent being "unable to handle the child".

[hornblower]

I read and reread her post a few times, and I must confess that I am hard-pressed to find the offense??:confused:

 

I thought that she acknowledged that there are home schoolers that educate for religious reasons (TRUE!), for academic excellence (TRUE!), and because their children have problems in the classroom (TRUE!). Then, she mentioned that some of these kids who have discipline problems are returned to the classroom (also TRUE!) because the parents have difficulty dealing with them.

 

Frankly, I have no idea how many of the public school teachers get through the day. My job is hard, but I take much joy in the work. I have nothing but sympathy for what the public school system has to deal with.

 

Sorry, but I often react to the us vs. them defensiveness. It. just. isnt. necessary. The poster on your list did not seem to want to cause offense.

 

Kim

 

:iagree:

 

My perception is that there are many kids who are not in regular bricks & mortar school simply because they were not functioning there at all due to discipline, impulse problems, distractability, hyperactivity etc etc etc. & were on the brink (or perhaps actually had been) of being asked to leave & find a different program.

 

We stopped doing lots of field trips because these same kids made our homeschool outings miserable. (it didn't help that often the parents were desparate for some adult chit chat time & seemed to view the outings as 'time-off' from f/t parenting; unfortunately these are the kids that need to be not only tomato staked but welded with rebar to their parents.....; I feel for the parents, really I do. But gosh, it was quite awful sometimes.)

 

And public school teacher is right up there on my list of nightmare jobs. I cannot imagine how people get up in the morning to go to work. I know I couldn't do it.

[HappyGrace]

Sounds great!

 

You could have also pointed out that scores of ps teachers choose to hs their own children! (Or at least have this in your back pocket to respond to any replies to your post.)

[OhM]

All those wonderful, SUBSTANTIVE education classes we took to get our credentials were mostly drivel, if we're to be honest with ourselves. Our training is in teaching large groups of kids at one time. Take that away and almost anyone who wants to put the effort in (through workshops, great curricula, training, support groups, co-ops, etc.) can teach. Let us not flatter ourselves.

 

 

Thank you for saying this. I came away from my coursework toward teaching certification (after working as an engineer for nearly 20 years) with precisely this impression. So after I started homeschooling, and started to hear certain teachers' arguments that only "trained professionals" can and should teach my children, I had to laugh out loud!

 

There are certainly teachers who are more skilled than me at teaching. I imagine nearly all teachers are more qualified than me to handle a classroom of 30 children! But to say that because I lack the training I am unqualified to teach my children is laughable.

[JennC]

Good, I hope she takes it sweetly! I didn't want to be a wench, but I couldn't BELIEVE what she said! I haven't gotten a response yet ... should be interesting!

 

LOVE it. She won't take it well, you will probably be barbequed - as opposed to just flamed ;)

[OhM]

I think the word "often" is the part that makes it offensive.

 

:iagree: I don't see the OP's response as defensive as much as reactionary. It seems to me she was aiming to hit the sweeping generalization broadside and pretty much scored.

[WTMCassandra]

Thank you, Erin! Way to go!

[Stacy in NJ]

Thanks for fighting the good fight, Erin.

 

I just want to add, JAG/AG is one of the few cirriulums that I've used consistently and gone back to repeatedly.

 

I graduated from high school not knowing the difference between a noun and a verb. My grammar knowledge is much improved thanks to your mom's hard work. Hope she's feeling better.

[angela in ohio]

I read and reread her post a few times, and I must confess that I am hard-pressed to find the offense??:confused:

 

I thought that she acknowledged that there are home schoolers that educate for religious reasons (TRUE!), for academic excellence (TRUE!), and because their children have problems in the classroom (TRUE!). Then, she mentioned that some of these kids who have discipline problems are returned to the classroom (also TRUE!) because the parents have difficulty dealing with them.

 

Frankly, I have no idea how many of the public school teachers get through the day. My job is hard, but I take much joy in the work. I have nothing but sympathy for what the public school system has to deal with.

 

Sorry, but I often react to the us vs. them defensiveness. It. just. isnt. necessary. The poster on your list did not seem to want to cause offense.

 

Kim

 

I have to agree. As I posted recently, dh has seen this problem time and again throughout his years as a teacher and principal. The parents think that the school is not handling their child's discipline correctly (not letting them get away with anything they want,) so they threaten to and then do pull them out to homeschool. These children make it back to school very quickly once the parent has had their fill.

 

It is a problem that causes an image issue for the rest of homeschoolers, and I think we should be willing to see it.

 

I also think poor performance in schools is a mixed result of poor instruction and, as the poster said, "what public school classrooms have to deal with."

[sbgrace]

I'm a former PS teacher. This is the "homeschooling" that PS teachers and adminstrators most often see around here. I saw it time and again over the years. So the view held may be incorrect--at least her assumpton of most--but it comes from negative experiences repeated over and over. That is most of what is seen in many areas. I understand your frustration OP but I think you could have corrected her assumption with a little more grace. I'd extend some understanding now with a dose of appreciation for what public school teachers are trying to do for kids. It's a hard job and most do it because they love children and want to see them flourish.

Edited August 31, 2009 by sbgrace

[JVA]

This is SO timely.......yesterday a woman, whom I greatly respect, made a similar derogatory comment about homeschoolers. I was stunned as I never knew she felt this way. I wish she could read your response.... the main issue with her is that hs parents aren't 'qualified'.....her kids went to ps and she, herself, is an RN...... maybe a little pride/legalism mixed in with ignorance, inexperience and unfamiliarity?

Thank you for posting your response.

[Mad Jenny Flint]

But I am sure it will all be sorted out in the discussion that follows, just as it was here on this board.

I have personally seen the full range of homeschooler stereotypes in various settings over the years, so I don't doubt that ps teachers encounter misfit homeschoolers frequently as a by-product of these students' chaotic home lives and indecisive, overwhelmed parents.

I have also seen how ridiculously easy the education classes I needed to take as a supplement to my graduate level education were, and have heard from other teachers that much of their training was in classroom management.

 

Thank you, Erin, for letting them know that we are not all trying to rescue our delinquents from the system, and that many of us work holes in our denim jumpers trying to be the best teachers we can be.

[Desert Rat]

Great come back! Keep us posted on the responses you receive. FWIW, I don't think you need to apologize.

[Meriwether]

In the school district where my husband grew up, the school is encouraging "problem" students to homeschool so that they don't have to deal with them. Basically, they tell the parent, "Just sign this paper saying you homeschool." They have no expectation that these students will actually be taught anything at home.

 

I'm sure there are homeschooled kids who return to school as discipline problems, but I taught in a school with 1,500 students for 3 years. The only homeschooled kid (that I knew of) was a quiet, mellow student who never made any waves.

 

I believe behavior to be a parenting issue, not a school issue.

[ekarl2]

I read and reread her post a few times, and I must confess that I am hard-pressed to find the offense??:confused:

 

I thought that she acknowledged that there are home schoolers that educate for religious reasons (TRUE!), for academic excellence (TRUE!), and because their children have problems in the classroom (TRUE!). Then, she mentioned that some of these kids who have discipline problems are returned to the classroom (also TRUE!) because the parents have difficulty dealing with them.

 

Frankly, I have no idea how many of the public school teachers get through the day. My job is hard, but I take much joy in the work. I have nothing but sympathy for what the public school system has to deal with.

 

Sorry, but I often react to the us vs. them defensiveness. It. just. isnt. necessary. The poster on your list did not seem to want to cause offense.

 

Kim

 

 

I can appreciate this, Kim. I do want to say, though, that I am a credentialed, time-in-the-classroom public school teacher. I feel a little more leniency to call BS when I see it. I also want to point out that this note was sent after numerous messages on the listserv about homeschoolers. Some were ill-informed, but polite and substantive. It was the "angels" and "often" thing that really got me.

 

I do think I could have been calmer and more gentle in my response. Unfortunately, the SEND button has been pressed.

[ekarl2]

I'm a former PS teacher. This is the "homeschooling" that PS teachers and adminstrators most often see around here. I saw it time and again over the years. So the view held may be incorrect--at least her assumpton of most--but it comes from negative experiences repeated over and over. That is most of what is seen in many areas. I understand your frustration OP but I think you could have corrected her assumption with a little more grace. I'd extend some understanding now with a dose of appreciation for what public school teachers are trying to do for kids. It's a hard job and most do it because they love children and want to see them flourish.

 

 

But I've done that job, too! It seems that being a proud public school teacher and supportive to homeschooling are mutually exclusive and they're not! I did send this out to the listserve, though:

 

The vast majority of homeschool parents I've talked to really do admire and appreciate the hard work public school teachers do. They realize that you are doing the absolute very best with the situation you are handed. They look up to you and want to learn from you. While some classroom teachers see an adversarial relationship between homeschool parents and themselves, the reverse is almost always not the case. Humbleness and mutual respect is a good thing for both parties.

 

I think you're right that encouragement was lacking in my original post; a flaw I wanted to make up for.

[ekarl2]

Thanks for fighting the good fight, Erin.

 

I just want to add, JAG/AG is one of the few cirriulums that I've used consistently and gone back to repeatedly.

 

I graduated from high school not knowing the difference between a noun and a verb. My grammar knowledge is much improved thanks to your mom's hard work. Hope she's feeling better.

 

Thanks, Stacy! I actually meant to leave off the AG part of my signature, but I forgot. I'm always afraid I'll be seen as advertising on here.

 

Mom's doing well. Thanks for asking!

[Alicia64]

I got. . . earned. . . whatever. . . A's in Shakespear a long time ago and I have NEVER trotted it out, but "the lady doth protest too much."

 

That's my general take on these people who think they're so highly trained. I had twins in Kinder last year (for one semester) and had no idea how little training school teachers receive.

 

I always assumed. . . well, I don't know what I assumed. I thought they had training. Period.

 

I did the math and was like, "wait a second, I've been in higher education at least three years longer than any of these teachers. I've had a load of child dev. courses in a Masters program. Why am I cowed by these people???" (Not at all to say that higher education matters when it comes to loving and teaching your own child. I just think it's flimsy that the teachers hold their certification up as if they won the Gold or something.)

 

Now high school teachers may be different -- it seems they must have special knowledge in their field. I would assume.

 

Cowed time was over.

 

You did a fantastic job -- don't let up. If she responds, respond back.

 

Let her know that she's being prejudicial -- pre judging based on her small sample. Tell her to get to know the people who are in it for the right reasons. But she won't, will she? Doesn't support her thesis.

 

Alley

[mirth]

I read the quoted teacher's rant as a complete cop-out. OP, you are correct in calling BS when you see it. Even if, in her limited experience, every hs'ed kid who somehow made it "back" in to the ps classroom had behavior problems, the idea that those kids are ultimately responsible for the low performance in schools is laughable. That is the part I find objectionable. The teaching quality has nothing to do with it? The school structure has nothing to do with it? Well if not, then I guess NCLB ought to just target the ex-hs'ers and thereby solve all the nation's problems surgically.

[Lovedtodeath]

But I've done that job, too! It seems that being a proud public school teacher and supportive to homeschooling are mutually exclusive and they're not! I did send this out to the listserve, though:

 

The vast majority of homeschool parents I've talked to really do admire and appreciate the hard work public school teachers do. They realize that you are doing the absolute very best with the situation you are handed. They look up to you and want to learn from you. While some classroom teachers see an adversarial relationship between homeschool parents and themselves, the reverse is almost always not the case. Humbleness and mutual respect is a good thing for both parties.

 

I think you're right that encouragement was lacking in my original post; a flaw I wanted to make up for.

Good job.

[briansmama]

In the school district where my husband grew up, the school is encouraging "problem" students to homeschool so that they don't have to deal with them. Basically, they tell the parent, "Just sign this paper saying you homeschool." They have no expectation that these students will actually be taught anything at home.

 

I'm sure there are homeschooled kids who return to school as discipline problems, but I taught in a school with 1,500 students for 3 years. The only homeschooled kid (that I knew of) was a quiet, mellow student who never made any waves.

 

I believe behavior to be a parenting issue, not a school issue.

 

I can see your point, but I disagree. One major reason we homeschool is to let our dc learn in a peaceful environment. Lots of children have difficulty concentrating in an overstimulating environment, with limited access to the outdoors and fresh air. Add to that the poor quality processed foods served for lunch, very limited bathroom breaks, non-existent downtime, and often subpar environmental conditions in most classrooms, and it isn't hard to see why so many children are out-of-sorts, tired, and run-down at school. These conditions can often lead a child to behavioral problems. I've known several children who've developed chronic stomachaches and/or headaches by 1st and 2nd grade.

 

I've also seen several children whose behavioral problems disappeared once they left the school environment to homeschool.

Edited August 31, 2009 by briansmama

[Lovedtodeath]

I can see your point, but I disagree. One major reason we homeschool is to let our dc learn in a peaceful environment. Lots of children have difficulty concentrating in an overstimulating environment, with limited access to the outdoors and fresh air. Add to that the poor quality processed foods served for lunch, very limited bathroom breaks, non-existent downtime, and often subpar environmental conditions in most classrooms, and it isn't hard to see why so many children are out-of-sorts, tired, and run-down at school. These conditions can often lead a child to behavioral problems. I've known several children who've developed chronic stomachaches and/or headaches by 1st and 2nd grade.

 

Just another perspective...

:iagree:Totally! And let's not forget getting up at 6 AM to catch the bus! Let's see... 6-7 years old, needing 11 hours of sleep... yeah, that is going to happen!

[briansmama]

:iagree:Totally! And let's not forget getting up at 6 AM to catch the bus! Let's see... 6-7 years old, needing 11 hours of sleep... yeah, that is going to happen!

 

How could I forget about the lack of sleep? Sorry- that's another biggie for us. My boys need 12 hours, and they get it every single night. We don't start lessons until 9am, after a long, healthy breakfast.

 

Also forgot to mention the homework load assigned to these kids afterschool- I know for our family, this would cut into my dc outdoor play/exercise significantly. That would also affect their behavior (my kids are pretty active, but can also focus for long periods of time).

[ekarl2]

How could I forget about the lack of sleep? Sorry- that's another biggie for us. My boys need 12 hours, and they get it every single night. We don't start lessons until 9am, after a long, healthy breakfast.

 

Also forgot to mention the homework load assigned to these kids afterschool- I know for our family, this would cut into my dc outdoor play/exercise significantly. That would also affect their behavior (my kids are pretty active, but can also focus for long periods of time).

 

 

Some classroom teachers balk at the idea of being able to teach a substantive day of homeschool and still being finished in about 3 or 4 hours. I guess they don't realize (I did!) that if you take out passing periods, lunchtime, and MOST IMPORTANTLY the 20 minutes per class period getting obnoxious kids to be quiet you can cover everything in about that amount of time. There is SO MUCH TIME WASTED in a classroom setting.

[Joanne]

I'm a former PS teacher. This is the "homeschooling" that PS teachers and administrators most often see around here. I saw it time and again over the years. So the view held may be incorrect--at least her assumption of most--but it comes from negative experiences repeated over and over. That is most of what is seen in many areas. I understand your frustration OP but I think you could have corrected her assumption with a little more grace. I'd extend some understanding now with a dose of appreciation for what public school teachers are trying to do for kids. It's a hard job and most do it because they love children and want to see them flourish.

 

Part of the disconnect, then, is flawed logic and insufficient "thinking it through". Let's be honest; public school teachers and admins most often see the failures (in my Counseling Research class, we'd call them the outliers on the normal distribution curve :lol::D;)). They see the children slipping through the PS system and homeschooling failures that enter the system. This expectedly skews their perception of the numbers these students represent within the homeschooling community. It does homeschoolers no service to deny they exist; teachers see them in seeming abundant reality. A better argument would be that the PS teachers and admins see these students in numbers that do not represent their percentage in the subculture.

 

Let's reverse it. I "homeschool" 4 additional students. 3 are "refugees" from the PS system (in a well regarded district in Texas). I *could* make sweeping generalizations about the PS system based on these 3 kids. My words about these kids would be accurate; but the generalization to all students (or even many students) would not. My 3 represent an insignificant sample of the PS students. Just like teachers and admins see an insignificant sample of HS students.

 

It's also a passionate topic because children, parenting, the future, political issues are involved. Both sides tend to ascribe legitimacy to the platitudes on the issue because of the function of tenacity and authority.

[Lovedtodeath]

Part of the disconnect, then, is flawed logic and insufficient "thinking it through". Let's be honest; public school teachers and admins most often see the failures (in my Counseling Research class, we'd call them the outliers on the normal distribution curve :lol::D;)). They see the children slipping through the PS system and homeschooling failures that enter the system. This expectedly skews their perception of the numbers these students represent within the homeschooling community. It does homeschoolers no service to deny they exist; teachers see them in seeming abundant reality. A better argument would be that the PS teachers and admins see these students in numbers that do not represent their percentage in the subculture.

 

Let's reverse it. I "homeschool" 4 additional students. 3 are "refugees" from the PS system (in a well regarded district in Texas). I *could* make sweeping generalizations about the PS system based on these 3 kids. My words about these kids would be accurate; but the generalization to all students (or even many students) would not. My 3 represent an insignificant sample of the PS students. Just like teachers and admins see an insignificant sample of HS students.

This is great. It should be posted on the group where Erin is arguing. :D

[Gretchen in NJ]

So, I'm on a listserv with grammar-types, mostly high school and college teachers. Somehow the messages got on the topic of homeschoolers and this message was sent to the group:

 

"Contrary to some of your beliefs, home-schoolers are not just those who have religious preferences or high standards--students are often home schooled because NO OTHER SCHOOL WILL TAKE THEM. They have serious discipline problems, and unfortunately, they usually make their way back to the public school system when their parents realize that we teachers do a difficult job of managing their "angels." If only the public knew what public school classrooms have to deal with--they might understand our low performance levels."

 

So, OF COURSE, I had to respond. I hope you like it!

 

"They" do understand the reasons for the low performance levels, but that doesn't mean they want their kids in those classrooms.

 

What you've said is completely NOT true. I spend my entire summer with homeschool parents and kids all across the country. While there may be a few here or there who fit this description, classifying it as "often" is a joke. If, by your account, no other public school will take them, how do they end up back there, hmm?

 

Your statement is as accurate as this one:

Contrary to some of your beliefs, public school teachers are not just those who want to make a difference in the life of a child or serve the public--they often work in the public schools because NO OTHER SCHOOL WILL TAKE THEM. They are not good at their jobs and like to be safe from firing (since tenure makes them impossible to get rid of, even if they're incompetent).

 

How does THAT feel?

 

Why are public school teachers so threatened by homeschoolers? Is institutional education really THAT fantastic? It only began a few hundred years ago. Many of those classics we teach and revere were written by men and women taught at home. I am a public school teacher, but I'm not threatened in the least. I know I'll always have a job if I want one because I'm good at what I do. Thankfully those HORRIBLE homeschoolers pay enough money for our grammar program that I can afford to stay home with my small children and run our company.

 

All those wonderful, SUBSTANTIVE education classes we took to get our credentials were mostly drivel, if we're to be honest with ourselves. Our training is in teaching large groups of kids at one time. Take that away and almost anyone who wants to put the effort in (through workshops, great curricula, training, support groups, co-ops, etc.) can teach. Let us not flatter ourselves.

 

Erin Karl

Analytical Grammar

 

 

You like???:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

Oh boy! Is that ever the truth! A whole bunch of drivel and a waist of my time and money.:glare:

[Gretchen in NJ]

I read and reread her post a few times, and I must confess that I am hard-pressed to find the offense??:confused:

 

I thought that she acknowledged that there are home schoolers that educate for religious reasons (TRUE!), for academic excellence (TRUE!), and because their children have problems in the classroom (TRUE!). Then, she mentioned that some of these kids who have discipline problems are returned to the classroom (also TRUE!) because the parents have difficulty dealing with them.

 

Frankly, I have no idea how many of the public school teachers get through the day. My job is hard, but I take much joy in the work. I have nothing but sympathy for what the public school system has to deal with.

 

Sorry, but I often react to the us vs. them defensiveness. It. just. isnt. necessary. The poster on your list did not seem to want to cause offense.

 

Kim

I think this is the offensive part:

students are often home schooled because NO OTHER SCHOOL WILL TAKE THEM.

The use of the word 'often' and shouting by using all caps is very offensive.

[Meriwether]

I didn't intend to imply that situations can't affect behavior. They obviously can. Some kids thrive in ps; some don't. I still believe that parenting is the single biggest external factor in behavior. Obviously, each child is different. My point is this: If the same child were raised in two different situations, which variable change would have the most impact - different parents or different education? I could have told you within the first two weeks of school, with a 95% accuracy rate, which students came from stable homes with involved parents. That doesn't mean I don't think going to school affects behavior.

[LaxMom]

:iagree:

 

My perception is that there are many kids who are not in regular bricks & mortar school simply because they were not functioning there at all due to discipline, impulse problems, distractability, hyperactivity etc etc etc. & were on the brink (or perhaps actually had been) of being asked to leave & find a different program.

 

We stopped doing lots of field trips because these same kids made our homeschool outings miserable. (it didn't help that often the parents were desparate for some adult chit chat time & seemed to view the outings as 'time-off' from f/t parenting; unfortunately these are the kids that need to be not only tomato staked but welded with rebar to their parents.....; I feel for the parents, really I do. But gosh, it was quite awful sometimes.)

 

And public school teacher is right up there on my list of nightmare jobs. I cannot imagine how people get up in the morning to go to work. I know I couldn't do it.

I agree. I see a number of people deciding to homeschool because of their children's "issues", because an environment that can adjust to the needs of that one student's rhythms and struggles is one where the child can grow and learn and excel.

 

This is not what this teacher was describing, though. And, you know what? In my experience, as the director of an umbrella that oversees homeschooling families and a member of our co-op board (and, apparently, as a generic contact person for new homeschoolers in the area), she's not wrong. I "often" (as in multiple times a year) get calls from parents pulling their kids out of school to "homeschool" in an attempt to stop the expulsion process and keep their options open for private school the next year. I have dealt with the parents whose child assaulted another in a group setting, screaming obscenities, then broke the glass out of the doors to the building when he was told he wouldn't be able to go play at a friend's house. These parents made every conceivable excuse for the child (14) but the bottom line is that none of their children have neuro issues, they're just rude, undisciplined and have an all consuming sense of entitlement, which their parents support or excuse. And when those children were returned to PS last year, I cringed on behalf of the classroom teachers afflicted with them.

 

However, her tone was completely snotty, with the caps and the "angels" comments, and she needed to be reminded that a little humility goes a long way. Well said, Erin.