s/o: for those of you who believe children should live at home until married

[DawnM]

Do you also believe that girls should not attend college and have "gainful employment/a career" at all?

 

I can understand believing that it is best to stay home, I can even understand that it is best to homeschool, but I have a couple of issues with not educating young ladies or allowing them to work.

 

1. I know many missionaries who never married (ladies) and do wonderful work in all kinds of ministries overseas.

 

2. I was always taught that even if I never *used* it, I should have a career to fall back on because we had known a few different families who either lost fathers/husbands (death) or had fathers/husbands who were unable to work because of long term illness or injury.

 

So I am curious what those of you who are more conservative with women think about this.

 

Dawn

[kmacnchs]

Well, I'm torn. I got my BA in Spanish Education and took some Master's courses in ESOL while I was waiting for my husband to finish school so we could get married. Then, I taught 1.5 yrs until I had my first baby. 20/20 hindsight - I would have trained in something that I could later do from home...but I was raised in a home where my mom was the bread-winner and a 4yr college was what EVERYBODY did, so I did in kind.

 

I think LEARNING is important but not necessarily college. I will try to focus on LEARNING opportunities for daughters and son.

 

That being said. My friend lost her husband (who was only 35) a couple of years ago and she does not have an income at all, has not worked in 8-9 years because she has been homeschooling her child, and does not have a degree because she saw no need once she got married and got pregnant...it makes you think...

[stripe]

I don't see what living at home w/ parents and having a career have to do with each other. I know young women from conservative families who have done both. There are many cultures where it is entirely normal (because of expense) for people to live at home. I recently read something about how children of immigrants in places like NYC are at a real financial advantage because they live at home in much higher rates than other young Americans. ;)

[Anne]

I think everyone, man or woman, should be prepared to earn a living. I pray that my daughters will marry and be able to stay home to raise their children. However, I know that God may have a different plan for them, and I want my daughters to be prepared as possible. There are careers which could be done from home, or that have more flexible applications, such as accounting or nursing.

 

I also do not overlook the value of a woman's education for its own sake. An educated woman is an asset and a blessing to her husband and her children. A woman who is educated will be better prepared to meet life with flexibility and creativity.

 

There are many ways to obtain this education - a four-year institution is only one of them. Distance degrees are possible, and self-education is possible. How many women on this board have enriched their own lives by educating themselves through homeschooling?

 

Just a few thoughts while I should be doing something else!! :tongue_smilie:

 

Anne

[Ottakee]

I am not one who believes that girls should remain home until married (but I did ask the question on the other thread).

 

I do think that it is important for girls to have some sort of skill. That might be from a technical school, a college degree or something like pet grooming, hair cutting, etc.

 

I have a degree in Special Education but taught only 2 years before we adopted our oldest. I do use parts of it with homeschooling.

 

A friend though went to school for a year to become a hair dresser. She now has 4 bio kids, 4 foster to adopt and can still bring in a little extra income by cutting hair in her home while the little ones sleep. If something were to happen to her husband, SHE would be better off than I am as she could work from home to bring in some income.

[TravelingChris]

I don't want any of my children living at home past college. I prefer they attend college away although we do have our oldest commuting right now. I think it important for both us parents and for the children to be separation. I don't find anything untoward about a single woman living alone.

[sleepymommy]

I know many families who believe their children should stay at home until marriage, but still believe education and a good career are very important to have. Especially daughters.

 

In these cases, they attend colleges and universities that are commuting distances. They either get married after or during college. The majority of the daughters of the families I know go on to graduate school. To these families, even if their daughters choose to be SAHM's they must still have a solid educational background.

[Impish]

I think living on your own should be a requirement before being allowed to marry.

 

I can't imagine figuring out bill paying, rent, etc for the first time on top of being newly married. I think that living on your own teaches you a whole different skill set that cannot be learned at home. My brother is living proof of that. He moved out after getting married, lasted 4 months or so before moving back in...with new wife in tow.

 

I also think its unfair too. Very few newly marrieds can afford what Mom and Dad can. To not experience living on your own before marriage can have some very unreal expectations of what the 'real world' has in store...not to mention that some folks don't marry until their 30s. Wolf was 35 when we married, I was 29. First marriage for both of us. I can sincerely tell you that if either one of us had lived at home with our parents until then, we'd both have lost our minds, completely. :lol:

[AuntieM]

It can be generally assumed that a young woman would outlive the parents who support her. This may not be an issue if the girl marries or has similarly aged brothers who will continue to provide for her. But to leave her alone and unequipped to earn provision for herself.... well, I might have to consider that a bit of parental failure (ducking, but that's what I believe).

 

I just heard that a high school friend of mine passed away at the age of 48, only 6 months after losing his wife to cancer. They are survived by a son and a daughter, ages 19 and 21. If neither were trained to live on their own, and were not provided the opportunity to learn skills adequate to support a household, they would be in a real pickle.

 

Also, earning an education (as a nurse, teacher, architect, whatever) and living with parents are not mutually exclusive circumstances. A gal can get a great education while living under her parents' wing, and will be prepared for earning a living or serving the Lord through missions (using her skill for free, perhaps, if it isn't needed for provisions).

 

I would love for my daughters to stay with me until they are ready to go off with their new husbands, but if those husbands never materialize, they need to be capable of supporting themselves. I personally believe that there is a growing population of young men in today's culture of irresponsibility that are really unequipped to support a family. I would rather have my daughter remain single for a while than to marry a guy who cannot provide for her (and I don't mean provide poshly, I mean just meeting basic needs).

[AuntieM]

I think living on your own should be a requirement before being allowed to marry.

 

I can't imagine figuring out bill paying, rent, etc for the first time on top of being newly married. I think that living on your own teaches you a whole different skill set that cannot be learned at home. My brother is living proof of that. He moved out after getting married, lasted 4 months or so before moving back in...with new wife in tow.

 

I do think that I learned a lot by living on my own, most of all I got an accurate feeling for the real cost of living. However, it also exposed me (by my own poor choices) to a lot of stuff that is now baggage I'll carry around for my life. Not only did I have the "freedom" to exercise grossly inappropriate behavior, I acquired a sense of selfishness that made it difficult to adapt to the sort of selfless mindset that is often required of a wife and mother. That's my experience, others' mileage may vary...

 

I believe that it is possible for the parents to teach independent living skills to their children while the children remain under the parent's roof. Crash and burn is not an automatic result of never living on your own. Again, just my two cents.

[Rebecca VA]

A few years ago I read the book "So Much More" by Ana Sophia and Elizabeth Botkin. The book strongly discouraged college for girls, stating that girls should either (1) help out in their dad's (meaning, their family's) business or charity endeavors; and/or (2) pursue higher education through careful reading and discussions at home; and/or (3) learn "advanced homemaking skills." I really had trouble with the fact that the authors didn't advocate learning that would lead to job opportunities. I've known women who were left vulnerable after divorce or death of a husband, and they're not a happy bunch.

 

Well, last weekend I heard the Botkin sisters speak at a conference. They said they'd changed their views somewhat on that subject and now felt that women really should pursue learning that could lead to supplementing the family income. They suggested practical things like bookkeeping and web design -- things that are in demand. They discouraged pursuing "feminine," obsolete job paths (like crocheting doilies) that few people want to pay good money for. In fact, they strongly stated several times that women should be as highly educated as possible -- not just so that they can earn money if necessary but so that they can be wise and careful and good wives and mothers. They heaped scorn on girls who waste their single years. They said the very best education is self-directed and intrinsically motivated, and that you can pursue that at home for (practically) free.

 

I was very gratified to hear the authors' (revised) viewpoints and agreed wholeheartedly with them.

[Pamela H in Texas]

We believe in courtship. We have our door open to our children long term. We are not against dd living with some girlfriends (from the congregation) as a young woman or even on her own though. We will encourage her to consider the situation carefully though. I wouldn't encourage it at 18 but at 26 would be different. And she started college at 15 and university at 16 so obviously we have no issue there. And she has every intention of working, though we encourage to keep it only at what she absolutely needs (and we're willing to support her as long as she's doing certain things) so she'll probably work part time, from home, etc.

 

We believe in traditional roles, but I think some people kinda missed the history of this. How many women in Biblical times just did childcare and housework (with machines to make that easier)? Many were capable with scripture, had knowledge of things important in their time, made money in the marketplace, worked outside the home part time, etc. Some married and others remained single. Nowhere does it say anythng about staying ignorant, barefoot and pregnant keeping house. If I'm wrong, I'd appreciate book, chapter and verse :)

[Cindyg]

My family and my home church believed this. I won't say they even taught this or insisted on it. They just sort of assumed it.

 

How it worked in my family was -- the girl (me) was certainly expected to go to college (and finish college) and prepare for a career. They assumed that I would remain under my parent's authority, or maybe "patronage" would be a better word, as I went through college; and that I would marry shortly after college. And that's exactly how it turned out.

 

As far as the career -- the family and the church assumed the young woman would work, preferably in some sort of ministry (like teaching in a Christian school), until she had children. Then she would almost certainly stay home with her children unless she was in some full time Christian ministry.

 

I did actually try to do that, but I couldn't get a job in the full-time Christian ministry of my choice (LOL!). So I went on to have a fine secular career. When I became pregnant unexpectedly many years later, even though I had been from my family and my home church a long time, I just knew I was supposed to be a stay at home mom. I didn't even especially want to. I just knew that was what I was supposed to do.

 

As it turned out, that was a wonderful decision. And here I am.

 

So, while this isn't the path that most modern young women choose, it's not necessarily anything bizarre either.

Edited July 18, 2009 by Cindyg

[OnTheBrink]

Well, after the death of my dd's fiance six weeks ago, I am glad that she's gotten her degree and is pursuing her Master's. Yes, she'd planned on marrying in a year and being a SAHM in a bit after that, but the Lord had other plans. I think women need to be able to support themselves if unmarried or to bring in extra income if needed from home.

 

I'm really sorry to hear your dd's fiance passed away. How devastating for your family!

[cathmom]

I think living on your own should be a requirement before being allowed to marry.

 

I can't imagine figuring out bill paying, rent, etc for the first time on top of being newly married. I think that living on your own teaches you a whole different skill set that cannot be learned at home. My brother is living proof of that. He moved out after getting married, lasted 4 months or so before moving back in...with new wife in tow.

 

I also think its unfair too. Very few newly marrieds can afford what Mom and Dad can. To not experience living on your own before marriage can have some very unreal expectations of what the 'real world' has in store...not to mention that some folks don't marry until their 30s. Wolf was 35 when we married, I was 29. First marriage for both of us. I can sincerely tell you that if either one of us had lived at home with our parents until then, we'd both have lost our minds, completely. :lol:

 

 

See, and I really disagree. Neither dh nor I lived on our own before marriage, and I always considered that an advantage in adjusting to being married! I think you can get too used to having everything just how you want it, and I also think it's a big issue for couples when one moves into where the other one previously lived by him/herself.

 

Of course, dh and I were 23 when we got married. :)

[Mrs. Frankweiler]

I went away to college, (only 1 hour away, but I lived in the dorms) got my teaching degree, and moved back home because as a teacher I couldn't afford to live on my own. At home, I helped out around the house, but my room was pretty much my own domain. I would also make dinners for the family and I paid my own expenses (car payment, clothes, food, etc...) but my parents did not charge me rent.

 

Three years later, I married dh and moved with him to a different state.

 

 

Pros:

 

• We saved a lot of money by living at home. (he lived in the barracks before we got married.)
  
• Since we didn't have much of our own, everything we bought was "OURS" (not "my couch" or "your bed")
  
• Since neither of us had really lived on our own, we didn't have any established patterns (sort of.) In other words, we had to figure out our own household routines together. (I guess this probably happens anyway, but neither one of us came with a house/apartment so all the routines for that first place were new to both of us.)
  

Cons:

 

• Since we didn't have much of our own, we had to buy everything quickly, which was a little overwhelming for a pair of newlyweds.
  
• I was very homesick. (and it probably didn't help that I was pregnant with a honeymoon baby!)
  
• I always regretted never having a place of my own, if for no other reason than just to say that I did it. I finally did get to have "my own place" when we had to move during dh's deployment, which wasn't really my own....I had 4 kids in tow! But, I got to pick the house, arrange the furniture, decorate....by myself! Very challenging, but also very rewarding. When dh came home, it was wonderful, of course, but the second he walked into the house I was a little sad thinking, "This isn't MY place anymore."
  

So, I think living at home had it's advantages as long as the young woman is able to support herself if necessary and has learned how to manage basic life skills (financial management, minor home repair & maintenance, etc...) I certainly don't think a women should be prevented from going to college or learning a skill while she waits at home for "Mr. Right" to come along. As others have said, when he does come, you still never know what life might bring and it's important for a woman to be able to support herself if necessary.

[stripe]

I think living on your own should be a requirement before being allowed to marry.

I have to disagree; this is a cultural thing to be "on your own." I have married in-laws who have never lived on their own.

 

I definitely am opposed to those who think women should never work. I like having female OB/GYNs, thank you very much.

[DawnM]

Oh my! I am SO sorry!

 

Dawn

 

Well, after the death of my dd's fiance six weeks ago, I am glad that she's gotten her degree and is pursuing her Master's. Yes, she'd planned on marrying in a year and being a SAHM in a bit after that, but the Lord had other plans. I think women need to be able to support themselves if unmarried or to bring in extra income if needed from home.

[DawnM]

Could you really earn enough to support a family being a hair dresser or a pet groomer?

 

I think that is the one thing I struggle with when it comes to people saying college isn't important. SOME people do make it without college, but many do not. Out of the current 10% unemployment, I read an article that said that 7% of that number are blue collar workers. That makes sense as many of the things people are cutting back on are "extras" like a new roof, pet grooming, etc.....

 

Dawn

 

I am not one who believes that girls should remain home until married (but I did ask the question on the other thread).

 

I do think that it is important for girls to have some sort of skill. That might be from a technical school, a college degree or something like pet grooming, hair cutting, etc.

 

I have a degree in Special Education but taught only 2 years before we adopted our oldest. I do use parts of it with homeschooling.

 

A friend though went to school for a year to become a hair dresser. She now has 4 bio kids, 4 foster to adopt and can still bring in a little extra income by cutting hair in her home while the little ones sleep. If something were to happen to her husband, SHE would be better off than I am as she could work from home to bring in some income.

[angela in ohio]

I have no interest in my girls having a career to "fall back on," as God will provide for them. They can live with us, they can live with their brother, the church will provide, etc. I do not think it is healthy for people to live alone (my personal opinion,) and I would want them living in a family situation. I also am so ridiculously old-fashioned as to think that a woman needs a man around (father, brother, husband) to look out for her in this hostile-to-women culture.

 

We do, however, educate them highly and intend to have them go to college. Nancy Wilson spoke at our church, and she talked about educating our daughters highly so that they are more eligible mates, and I agree. I want my educated and talented daughters to be useful and worthy wives for good, Godly men. I personally think uneducated women have fewer options in marriage.

 

If God does not intend them to marry (which I think is highly unlikely, unless he would have speific plans for them - ministry, etc.,) they can work outside the home while living with us.

 

Even if one believes that women should not work outside the home, I think they should still educate their daughters, as they will educate their sons some day if they homeschool. I worry about the trend among some homeschoolers to educate their dd poorly, as these poorly educated women will then educated their own dc more poorly, and on and on.

Edited July 18, 2009 by angela in ohio
typo

[eternalknot]

Do you also believe that girls should not attend college and have "gainful employment/a career" at all?

 

Until WTM, it had never occurred to me that these two (staying at home until marriage and the education/development of a female) were even remotely related. It's just a cultural norm in my circle (we're mostly Asian and Latino) to stay home until marriage. None of my non-Asian or non-Latino friends have any desire to do so, nor would their parents be thrilled about the prospect. We've discussed this difference over the years :D and I've seen similar sentiment echoed here.

 

It's been expected that ALL of us, female or male and married or unmarried, will find a way to support ourselves or to otherwise contribute to the family. We're different in that the money in our family is more fluid than is the case with mainstream America. As an extended family we tend to pool our resources, monetary and otherwise. So one SAHSibling will take in her siblings' kids during the workday and in return her WOH siblings will help with her groceries or emergency car repair or whatever. No keeping score of money or help, everyone just shares when he can and takes when he needs. It all comes out in the wash.

 

This system promotes collective sustainment as a priority over the individual supporting of oneself. I think it's part of the reason my family hasn't been hit nearly as hard as others in this financial *blech* that is going on, despite our experiencing layoffs and such just like other families. Living as an extended family frees up a significant amount of money (pooling resources always does). Independence as a character trait has its place; IMO, the family isn't that place. Rather, it needn't be. I would be taken aback but not devestated if my kids, neices, or nephews ended up feeling and doing differently.

 

Side note - reading these threads it seems some folks equate "living at home" with "free ride" ... the two aren't mutually inclusive. I'm sure that's true in some instances, but IME that is not the case within my circle. We all paid individual expenses (car payments, insurance, hygiene needs, etc) as well as contributed regularly to household expenses (groceries, repairmen bills, sibling tuition, upgrading cable LOL, etc).

[OrganicAnn]

What happens if the kid(s) never marries. 30 yos, 40 yos, 50 yos living at home with their parents?

 

You sometimes here about people getting married to anyone just to be able to leave home. I just thought that was more in the past.

 

I lived at home for a couple of years before grad school to save money. I found that I regressed in my maturity level. I was back to being the kid.

[eternalknot]

What happens if the kid(s) never marries. 30 yos, 40 yos, 50 yos living at home with their parents?

 

It's just not something we get hung up on. What matters is what works for our family; we pay no mind to what others think or think we should do. I know it would bother some folks to have a 30 year old living at home, but it's no biggie to us.

 

Case in point, my unmarried 30 year old brother. He works 30 hours a week, but would rather invest his money in our family and in his future than in a mortgage on a place for himself right now. He owns two condos; after four months of living in one he decided it wasn't prudent to be paying that mortgage for him to 'enjoy' the place for the few hours he had between the end of his workday and his bedtime. Better to rent it to someone else, and make better use of his earnings and leisure time.

 

With the rent he collects (both condos are paid off) he works a reduced schedule at his job. This affords him time off to pursue advanced degrees, coach his nephews' sports teams, chauffeur elderly relatives, and more. His savings account would have Dave Ramsey as giddy as a schoolgirl, he is generously helping siblings with tuition, and he sends a monthly allowance to help care for our grandmother. Win, win. He pays all of his individual bills and contributes to the household expenses.

 

But if he wanted to move out, he could (and would) do so. With blessings in all directions (moving out, moving back in). When he gets married he'll be financially set (debt-free, paid off homes) and accustomed to a life of cohabitating and kids. If he never marries, he will never have to feel like he has to go home to a quiet, empty house of his own. (Very opposite of what we grew up with!) He might choose to, but he won't feel resigned to.

 

You sometimes here about people getting married to anyone just to be able to leave home. I just thought that was more in the past.

 

My husband's sister was one of those types; my husband ran off to the military instead. But theirs was a repressive home. It wasn't a model of collective living and sharing of resources for the greater common good. Ironically, they grew up in a Communist country. Fortunately, IME this isn't representative of most people who opt to stay or want their kids to stay home until marriage.

 

I lived at home for a couple of years before grad school to save money. I found that I regressed in my maturity level. I was back to being the kid.

 

I find family dynamics fascinating, whatever the arrangment :D it was always interesting for me to see my parents as "children of my grandparents" when we all lived together during my childhood.

[Ottakee]

Well, I am assuming that the woman would need some extra income, not total income. If she is a widow, she would get social security for her and the kids along with any life insurance they had.

 

I also see this as a way to add a little to the family's income level without her having to take on a full time job.

 

 

 

Could you really earn enough to support a family being a hair dresser or a pet groomer?

 

 

[Kathy in MD]

Well, I am assuming that the woman would need some extra income, not total income. If she is a widow, she would get social security for her and the kids along with any life insurance they had.

 

I also see this as a way to add a little to the family's income level without her having to take on a full time job.

 

And when the kids are over 18, their social security ends. How will she be able to help them through college? Plus the dc's social security helped pay for the house and it's upkeep. Now what? Or if her dh doesn't die, instead he's laid off. Or he can't get work because he has to be at the union hall hoping for a contractor to call. Or he's disabled and keeps hoping to recover enough to work again. Or can never work steadily again. Unless an individual accepts permanent disability, he doesn't get disablity pay.

 

Or she gets a divorce or is seperated. And xdh won't pay child support or pays barely enough for the children's expenses but nothing for her.

 

It's nice to say that God will provide, but I think that it doesn't hurt to put yourself in a position where God has an easier time.

[stripe]

I have been reading the book Shop Class as Soulcraft: An Inquiry Into the Value of Work by Matthew B. Crawfor, and I highly recommend it, for his analysis of the separation of work of the mind vs. physical labor (he's a philosopher turned motorcycle mechanic). He addresses work/careers that involve both, such as, say, plumbing, which does pay fairly highly. I really recommend this book for so many reasons.

 

The sort of family that Angela in Ohio describes, where women having men to fall back on, requires the men in their lives (husbands, brothers, fathers) to be very strong and devoted, is one that I completely admire and respect. I think it is outside the US mainstream. It is definitely a complementary system rather than various independent units that occasionally intersect. It requires both sides to work at their role. I must admit that I don't quite have enough trust in that system (I'm trying....), but I think it's a wonderful thing to have family members working together, and I so appreciate Angela and eternalknot's posts in this regard. I have really enjoyed the opportunities I've had to see families like this, and to see different cultures' family styles. It is so eye-opening to see that all the things one assumes "everyone" does, are really...not so.

 

I once heard a supposedly famous 1970s feminist [i'd never heard of her and promptly forgot her name] on the radio talking about how women need to be independent, which somehow connected in her mind to how proud she was that her daughters kept their maiden name [i saw no connection, but maybe it's a litmus test] -- I'm all for women being well educated and strong, but her reason that women needed to be educated was so that the could leave their husbands at any time. I wonder if someone is so quick to leap out of a marriage, if it is such an ephemeral thing filled with two distrusting partners, then why bother to begin with?! (I am not opposed to divorce, but I found that vision of marriage to be fairly repugnant.) I think this is the sort of thing people envision when they talk about independence and so on.

[johnandtinagilbert]

 

Side note - reading these threads it seems some folks equate "living at home" with "free ride" ... the two aren't mutually inclusive. I'm sure that's true in some instances, but IME that is not the case within my circle. We all paid individual expenses (car payments, insurance, hygiene needs, etc) as well as contributed regularly to household expenses (groceries, repairmen bills, sibling tuition, upgrading cable LOL, etc).

 

BRAVO! to your family!

:hurray::cheers2::thumbup:

"the two aren't mutually inclusive" You took the words right out of my mouth. Living at home does not mean holding back maturity, free ride, or less of a chance to advance at work, etc. It also doesn't mean they won't have an opportunity to learn about personal finances, budgeting, etc. All of those things can be taught and matured at home.

 

Any working adult is able to contribute to their home. Why would I want my children to rent some apartment and drop their money down the drain when they could pay "rent" at home, at a discount, and save, save, save to work towards a debt free future.

 

We see many young adults in our communities attending work, volunteering, in college or trade, who live at home, bank as much as they can, come and go respectfully, independently and move out for marriage, and become mature, responsible adults who lead their homes and families well. It certainly can be done, particularly when they are given obligations while in the home. There won't be a free ride here, and there will be guidelines, but all the while we'll be helping them be prepared for adult life in far more successful ways.

 

I had my first credit card at 18! DUMB! Had I been home, wouldn't have happened. Quit school early b/c I wanted more money out of working. DUMB! Wouldn't have happened at home. Got pregnant before marriage. DUMB! Probably would have been more cautious if I were living at home.

 

As for girls and education. I say encourage them to be educated, but shoot for a field that will benefit their long term plans. For example, dd11 want to be a SAHM and home school (hopefully that won't change :) ), so she's considering getting a teacher's degree and offering testing to other home schoolers. This affords a bit of income and will help her with her personal goals. In the meantime, we are already teaching them about budgeting, cooking, cleaning, time management, all skills they'll all need as adults.

 

Saving money, encouraging family and community, removing selfishness, avoiding debt, saving on college expenses, having continual security in a loving environment. All things that can be met when they move out, but are certainly easier to obtain while they're home.

[Jugglin'5]

 

Even if one believes that women should not work outside the home, I think they should still educate their daughters, as they will educate their sons some day if they homeschool. I worry about the trend among some homeschoolers to educate their dd poorly, as these poorly educated women will then educated their own dc more poorly, and on and on.

 

:iagree:

[HRAAB]

Until WTM, it had never occurred to me that these two (staying at home until marriage and the education/development of a female) were even remotely related. It's just a cultural norm in my circle (we're mostly Asian and Latino) to stay home until marriage. None of my non-Asian or non-Latino friends have any desire to do so, nor would their parents be thrilled about the prospect. We've discussed this difference over the years :D and I've seen similar sentiment echoed here.

 

It's been expected that ALL of us, female or male and married or unmarried, will find a way to support ourselves or to otherwise contribute to the family. We're different in that the money in our family is more fluid than is the case with mainstream America. As an extended family we tend to pool our resources, monetary and otherwise. So one SAHSibling will take in her siblings' kids during the workday and in return her WOH siblings will help with her groceries or emergency car repair or whatever. No keeping score of money or help, everyone just shares when he can and takes when he needs. It all comes out in the wash.

 

This system promotes collective sustainment as a priority over the individual supporting of oneself. I think it's part of the reason my family hasn't been hit nearly as hard as others in this financial *blech* that is going on, despite our experiencing layoffs and such just like other families. Living as an extended family frees up a significant amount of money (pooling resources always does). Independence as a character trait has its place; IMO, the family isn't that place. Rather, it needn't be. I would be taken aback but not devestated if my kids, neices, or nephews ended up feeling and doing differently.

 

Side note - reading these threads it seems some folks equate "living at home" with "free ride" ... the two aren't mutually inclusive. I'm sure that's true in some instances, but IME that is not the case within my circle. We all paid individual expenses (car payments, insurance, hygiene needs, etc) as well as contributed regularly to household expenses (groceries, repairmen bills, sibling tuition, upgrading cable LOL, etc).

 

Just wanted to say how much I appreciate your view of family life. Dh and I often discuss other cultures' view of family life (we have a friend from a family much like yours), and often times we feel rather envious although I'm sure there can be negatives. Right now we could so use that support system, emotionally and financially, and we would be very willing to be there to support others equally. However, we're from mainstream US families; my dh's family actually seems to worship independence as some type of minor god completely missing the fact that a person can be independent and responsible while still living with family. Also, I've seen that type of 'independence at all costs' turn selfish. Not that it has to, just something I've witnessed with family members.

 

Janet

[Kathy in MD]

......I once heard a supposedly famous 1970s feminist [i'd never heard of her and promptly forgot her name] on the radio talking about how women need to be independent, which somehow connected in her mind to how proud she was that her daughters kept their maiden name [i saw no connection, but maybe it's a litmus test] -- I'm all for women being well educated and strong, but her reason that women needed to be educated was so that the could leave their husbands at any time. I wonder if someone is so quick to leap out of a marriage, if it is such an ephemeral thing filled with two distrusting partners, then why bother to begin with?! (I am not opposed to divorce, but I found that vision of marriage to be fairly repugnant.) I think this is the sort of thing people envision when they talk about independence and so on.

 

I think that it's the KNOWLEDGE that you could leave your dh at any time that's important. Now hold on, and follow my train of thought. If I have a serious spat with my dh, I can't truthfully say, to him or myself, that if I could afford to, I'd leave. To say such, reduces the dh to a meal ticket and makes me feel trapped and without options. But in our early years, I knew however mad I was, I was in that marrage because I wanted to be there. As a result, dh never feels reduced to a meal ticket and I don't feel trapped and hopeless. I think it makes for a much healthier marriage.

 

There is only one other phrase that I feel could be as devestating to a marriage as "I'd leave if I could afford to!". And that's "If you hadn't gotten pregnant, I wouldn't have married you". It takes some very big people to recover from these phrases and they're rare. Even if the couple stays together, I can't help but think that the relationship has been severely if not permanently damaged.

 

No, I think that it's important for a woman to know she can leave. Therefore she knows that she's staying for other reasons, like she really loves the guy, and the dh does't feel like he's nothing except a meal ticket to his wife.

[MOM24WONDERS]

This is precisely why our young adults know how to pay bills. They know all about mortgage, insurance, the whole 9 yards. I went straight from my parents to my husband and never missed a beat because I was taught well.

 

We are very simple, frugal people as were my parents, so it was passed on to us. We never expected to start with what our parents had - they'd worked years to acquire it. We still don't expect to have all that our parents have! We started in a VERY modest one bedroom apartment. We never had an ounce of trouble paying our bills, etc.

 

I think if you teach your children these skills they will be able to do them. It's when life at home is a free ride that people start to have a problem.

 

As for girls living at home until marriage - I would never tell my daughter that she HAD to, but she is certainly welcome to and we hope that she will. She is absolutely encouraged to get a suitable part-time job when she's old enough (while still in high school). If she wanted to attend college we would not have a problem with that (NOT our first choice, though). We would prefer that if any of our children want to pursue higher education that they do it through distance learning, online classes, and apprenticeships.

 

A young man should be able to be the priest, provider, and protector of his family. If he can't fully support his wife, then he has no need of getting married. When he is able to be all of the things he needs to be, then it's time to find his wife! :)

 

As for having a "fall-back" plan - God is our fall-back plan - He always provides and cares for us. I would not be concerned if my daughter never had a "career" (I'd rather she didn't ;) ) before marriage - if something happened to her husband and she became widowed, the church and us as her parents would care for her and her children until she remarried. If her husband became disabled we and the church would again care for them until their financial stability returned.

 

I think it's so important for young men to learn to be financially stable. They need to learn the importance of saving and to pay their own way. When they begin to think of marriage they should have enough money saved to get a home for his family (whether a rental or other) and have a stable job to provide for them. It's important for them to learn that our money is for our family, not for THEIR fun. Way too many young men marry and want their own checking account or want to spend "their" money on what they want. They need to be taught that their responsibility is their family first.

 

Young ladies need to be taught to be frugal. They need to be taught to be good managers of their home and their husband's paycheck. I was taught from a young age how to manage money and how to get the most for my buck. Using coupons, shopping clearance aisles, sales, yard sales (LOVE yard sales :) ), etc have always been part of my life. And I like it. If someone just walked up and gave me a million dollars, I would STILL live like this. I just happen to enjoy frugality and simplicity.

 

I think our girls need to be taught the same thing. I see SO many young women marry and their husbands are working their tails off to provide, but they are always wanting more - to get their nails done, pedicures, hair fixed, new clothes, etc, etc. Not that there is anything wrong with those things, BUT they should have been taught to be good stewards. They should be taking what their husband makes and putting it to the BEST use, not personal, selfish use.

 

This, in turn, leads to them believing that they HAVE to work because they just can't afford not to. It's a vicious cycle and frankly, it makes me sick.

 

My mom, sister, and I are working very hard in our ministry to dispell this lie and to show women that they CAN be at home and that God honors that.

 

The book, The Way Home by Mary Pride is one of the best books I've ever read. Desperate Housewives Passionate for God is another good one. I believe we need to teach our young adults (I've got two - boy almost 15 and girl 13) to be the type of man or woman that GOD wants them to be...not what the world tells us to be.

 

As I told a friend last night, I've always been a little weird and honestly, I like it. :)

 

 

 

 

 

I think living on your own should be a requirement before being allowed to marry.

 

I can't imagine figuring out bill paying, rent, etc for the first time on top of being newly married. I think that living on your own teaches you a whole different skill set that cannot be learned at home. My brother is living proof of that. He moved out after getting married, lasted 4 months or so before moving back in...with new wife in tow.

 

I also think its unfair too. Very few newly marrieds can afford what Mom and Dad can. To not experience living on your own before marriage can have some very unreal expectations of what the 'real world' has in store...not to mention that some folks don't marry until their 30s. Wolf was 35 when we married, I was 29. First marriage for both of us. I can sincerely tell you that if either one of us had lived at home with our parents until then, we'd both have lost our minds, completely. :lol:

 

[Word Nerd]

If one of your daughters had different views when she's older, how would you handle it? I'm just curious whether unmarried adult women in families that practice this are seen as having the authority to make decisions about living alone and pursuing a career. Or are they still considered under the authority of their parents even at age 25, for example?

 

I have no interest in my girls having a career to "fall back on," as God will provide for them. They can live with us, they can live with their brother, the church will provide, etc. I do not think it is healthy for people to live alone (my personal opinion,) and I would want them living in a family situation. I also am so ridiculously old-fashioned as to think that a woman needs a man around (father, brother, husband) to look out for her in this hostile-to-women culture.

 

[Ravin]

I take the stance that my DD would be welcome to remain in our home into her single adulthood. Depending on the education and career she wants to pursue, it could very well be economically advantageous for both parent and child for the adult child to remain in the home into single adulthood. Unless in school full-time, I would expect an adult child to contribute to the family income--it would not be a free ride, but certainly more affordable than getting an apartment on his or her own. This child would be responsible for his/her own vehicle and pocket money as well. In short, and adult child would be given the same consideration as any other co-habiting adult (such as my BIL, who has lived with us for almost seven years; he was twenty or so when he moved in).

 

If my daughter wanted to join the military (her father and I and two of her aunts all did), that would obviously take her away from home young. Nor would I be generally opposed to DD marrying young. My long term goal as a parent is to see my child into a successful, happy, and productive adulthood. Living alone is not a requirement for achieving this, imo.

[stripe]

I think that it's the KNOWLEDGE that you could leave your dh at any time that's important. Now hold on, and follow my train of thought.

 

I see your point, and I truly appreciate your thoughtful interpretation; it was certainly explained in an entirely different way than the original speaker. I also feel that I know women who feel they must put up with whatever their husband does because they have no other options (or at least I'd never put up with what they do, so I am projecting that they are unhappy). I agree (and I do believe in divorce as an option) that neither partner should be trapped in a marriage, but I too hope that the "escape hatch" does not become the focus of the marriage.

 

This thread is one of the most interesting I've read in a long while. :)

[nova mama]

I wouldn't necessarily say that living on your own should be a requirement before marriage, but even in a "traditional" marriage/household, a woman who knows how to "handle business" (e.g., pay bills, take care of things when he's away, etc.) is certainly an asset to her husband. (And I think a woman can learn these things even while living with her parents.) If we're talking about a Christian marriage, there is support for this in Proverbs 31.

[SheilaZ]

Until WTM, it had never occurred to me that these two (staying at home until marriage and the education/development of a female) were even remotely related.

 

Me either. I lived at home after I finished college. I lived on campus during the school year and spent my summers at home. Once I had my BS in biology, I came home to my local college for secondary education certification.

I lived at home even during my first year as a teacher. I paid my own car payment and insurence and helped out my parents as they needed. I cooked meals for our family, ran errands, and did chores.

I'm the baby, so there wasn't anyone else around to do these things.

 

I married when I was 24 and worked until our first baby was born. I had never planned on being a SAHM or even a homeschooler...but those are the decisions that DH and I made over time.

DH was much older and in the military so he'd lived on his own for a while. (very, very bachelor-style life)

 

I've never missed living on my own. I sure don't think it should be some kind of requirement before marriage.