Clothes borrowing between 2 sisters. Help!

[mommyoffive]

I sort of slightly get this mindset.

 

For instance, even though my kids may work for some things, I have no hesitation about taking stuff that they might have earned themselves. Like if a bike is used to go up the street to a dangerous intersection despite moms instructions to not do that, I'd have no hesitation about taking the bike away for awhile even though the kid may have paid for it himself. I would also take a phone or internet device that's used to bully others, deceive mom and dad (saying your doing school but playing games instead) or view porn.

 

But no, I don't really udnerstand the concept of my kid can earn stuff, so everyone can benefit from their hard work. My kids wouldn't have an incentive to work hard if they knew that they would have to let their younger irresponsible sibling mess with something special, delicate, or expensive taking the chance that it would be broken.

 

I like the idea of being able to take things away even if they earn the money to buy them. 

 

 

I never said that things that they buy with their own money they have to share.  They would get to figure that out on their own. 

[mommyoffive]

Iï¸ would have a big problem if Dh borrowed my bra or even my t-shirts. Even if they fit. They are in my dresser for a reason. They fit my body and were chosen because the colors and styles suit me.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

Well we are all different people.  I don't really care that much if others wear my stuff. 

[Miss Peregrine]

I like the idea of being able to take things away even if they earn the money to buy them.

 

 

I never said that things that they buy with their own money they have to share. They would get to figure that out on their own.

What about gifts given to them by others?

[amy g.]

I sort of slightly get this mindset.

 

For instance, even though my kids may work for some things, I have no hesitation about taking stuff that they might have earned themselves. Like if a bike is used to go up the street to a dangerous intersection despite moms instructions to not do that, I'd have no hesitation about taking the bike away for awhile even though the kid may have paid for it himself. I would also take a phone or internet device that's used to bully others, deceive mom and dad (saying your doing school but playing games instead) or view porn.

 

But no, I don't really udnerstand the concept of my kid can earn stuff, so everyone can benefit from their hard work. My kids wouldn't have an incentive to work hard if they knew that they would have to let their younger irresponsible sibling mess with something special, delicate, or expensive taking the chance that it would be broken.

I see what you are saying. I see it as stopping dangerous behavior rather than not owning a specific item.

 

If my kid was not being safe on a bike or computer, I would not give them access to it until they could be safe, but I wouldn't give it to a neighbor child, or sell it and keep the money because it doesn't belong to me.

 

If I wanted to do something dangerous, like drive drunk, people would be completely right in stopping the behavior and not letting me drive until I was able to be safe, but that would not have anything to do with my car not actually belonging to me because I didn't earn the money to pay for it.

[HomeAgain]

If I wanted to do something dangerous, like drive drunk, people would be completely right in stopping the behavior and not letting me drive until I was able to be safe, but that would not have anything to do with my car not actually belonging to me because I didn't earn the money to pay for it.

 

I am so going to start using this with my kid!  "I'm revoking your license to bike.  You can reapply after completing a parent approved safety course and a minimum wait of 2 weeks."

 

:lol:

[Miss Peregrine]

Mommyoffive, my youngest is nine. From toddlerhood they have not been forced to share. I can't imagine now requiring them to give up autonomy over their own things now.

 

For the most part they are generous and don't have any problem sharing/giving to each other. I feel like my way of handling sharing has been a success.

I've seen, in my own extended family, the fallout of not having autonomy over one's things as a teenager turned young adult still living at home. It's not pretty.

[mommyoffive]

Mommyoffive, my youngest is nine. From toddlerhood they have not been forced to share. I can't imagine now requiring them to give up autonomy over their own things now.

 

For the most part they are generous and don't have any problem sharing/giving to each other. I feel like my way of handling sharing has been a success.

I've seen, in my own extended family, the fallout of not having autonomy over one's things as a teenager turned young adult still living at home. It's not pretty.

 

You are saying that not having autonomy over their things led to them living at home? 

[Miss Peregrine]

Dd15 did blame her perceived lack of clothes on me. She said I "never take her shopping."

 

I can't tell you how many trips we have taken, just for her, only to come home empty handed.

And it's not an easy feat to just run out to the store. We 35 minutes to nearest shopping center.

[fairfarmhand]

I see what you are saying. I see it as stopping dangerous behavior rather than not owning a specific item.

 

If my kid was not being safe on a bike or computer, I would not give them access to it until they could be safe, but I wouldn't give it to a neighbor child, or sell it and keep the money because it doesn't belong to me.

 

If I wanted to do something dangerous, like drive drunk, people would be completely right in stopping the behavior and not letting me drive until I was able to be safe, but that would not have anything to do with my car not actually belonging to me because I didn't earn the money to pay for it.

That;s exactly it.

 

Regardless of how the item came to be in their possession, if it's become a danger, then they can't use it.

 

Of course this doesn't apply to dresses, shirts, and shoes!

 

Unless someone assaults another with a shoe...

[Miss Peregrine]

You are saying that not having autonomy over their things led to them living at home?

No. Teenager turned 18 and still lived at home. Nothing belonged to young adult, even gifts from other people. Teenager moved out when appeals for autonomy were ignored.

 

Not saying it was solely about sharing but an overall family culture of parental control over everything leads to rebellion, IMO.

Edited November 16, 2017 by Miss Peregrine

[lynn]

No borrowing unless everyone agrees. I hated my older sister borrowing my clothes. I bought most clothes with my own money she'd loose them or ruin them. She chose not to work and so did not have what I earned. Unless everyone agrees then no. Good luck

[amy g.]

Dd15 did blame her perceived lack of clothes on me. She said I "never take her shopping."

 

I can't tell you how many trips we have taken, just for her, only to come home empty handed.

And it's not an easy feat to just run out to the store. We 35 minutes to nearest shopping center.

I'm wondering how she would respond to being required to do something for someone else before someone else is willing to do something for her.

 

There is a dog training theory that you shouldn't give them anything for free. So for example, I make my dog sit before I put down her food bowl.

 

I've adapted this idea for my kids, which I realize is weird.

 

If they ask me to make them tea before bed, I'll say, "Yes, if you go wipe down your bathroom while I'm making it."

 

Last week, my 7 year old was complaining that all of her clothes were dirty. My 11 year old offered to wash them all in exchange for help in cleaning her room. They actually had a really fun time helping each other.

 

For a 15 year old who might not have friends who drive to take her shopping, I'd give her some choices like asking her dad to take her on the weekend, or completely cleaning my car, a task I hate, in exchange for taking her to the clothes store.

 

In reality, all of these things that our kids want cost us in time, energy and money.

 

I don't want them to get the idea that we should endlessly give just because we love them.

 

I guess that makes me a mean mom.

[fairfarmhand]

Dd15 did blame her perceived lack of clothes on me. She said I "never take her shopping."

 

I can't tell you how many trips we have taken, just for her, only to come home empty handed.

And it's not an easy feat to just run out to the store. We 35 minutes to nearest shopping center.

 

Okay, I'm getting an idea...

 

Perhaps this is happening:

 

IT takes time in most young girls for a sense of style and what works for your body to come together.

 

Your older daughter has two years on her sister and has probably worked out the styles that are flattering to her. She's probably seen more outfits put together, and maybe she just pays attention to clothing and fashion more than her sister does.

 

When younger sister goes shopping she gets overwhelmed. SHe doesn't know what works, She doesn't know what's flattering or stylish.

 

Older sis, in her eyes, has BETTER clothes. Nicer clothes. Looks cuter and more put together. Rather than figure things out for herself, younger sis (who is pretty relaxed about clothing and borrowing) finds it easier to help herself to her sister's things.

 

Perhaps your younger daugther (she may struggle with organization and getting overwhelmed with the choices in stores) may have more success shopping online with you and your older daughter advising. Figuring out what pieces work together and what pieces work with the things she already has takes time and skill

 

However, younger sister needs to realize that regardless of the status of her own wardrobe, she has no right to help herself to the belongings of others.

 

Those are TWO separate things and she needs to realize that it's unfair to make others suffer because she feels dowdy, unfashionable, insecure, whatever.

[Tanaqui]

Well we are all different people.  I don't really care that much if others wear my stuff.

 

You don't care if your stuff comes back dirty and torn and stained and in generally bad condition?

 

I don't believe you.

 

And even if that's how you are, you have ample evidence that the OP's daughter does care, greatly.

[wendyroo]

Also, I really don't understand this idea that children don't own anything because they don't work to earn the money to buy things.

 

It has been over 20 years since I have worked a real job for more than my own fun money.

 

Does this mean I own nothing?

 

Can Dh do anything he wants with the things I've been given or have bought with money he earned.

 

Can he give my things away?

 

Can he refuse to let me take them if I want to leave him and move out?

 

I don't understand how people treat children sometimes.

 

In my house, my young children don't really own many things, but it has less to do with them not having money, and much more to do with them not yet having the maturity to be responsible for things.

 

For example, I "own" all the clothing in the house.  I am responsible for purchasing it, keeping it clean and mended, making sure each person has adequate clothing that fits them, etc.  When my oldest outgrows a pair of pants, I pass them down to his younger brother and replace them with larger ones.  The pants were "his" while they fit him, but it would do no one any good to let him "own" a pair of too small pants and have to buy a new pair for his younger brother to own when he grows into that size.

 

The same philosophy does apply to DH's clothing as well, because he has no interest in being responsible for it.  If a pair of his jeans are worn out, neither he nor I have any issue with me making the unilateral decision to discard and replace them.  I buy, toss, borrow and reallocate "his" clothing as I see fit.  He has willing given up true ownership of his clothing in exchange for not having to think about or be responsible for his wardrobe.

 

This seems to be our guiding policy on ownership.  If we are ultimately in charge of maintaining an item, fixing it, replacing it, properly storing it, disposing of it when it is no longer usable, etc, then we are ultimately its owners even if we allow one of the children to have temporary possession.  We are even ultimately in charge of "their" toothbrushes, because we are responsible for keeping track of them, keeping them sanitary, knowing when they need to be replaced, and buying new ones when a child throws theirs in the toilet in a fit of pique.  Likewise, DH actually owns "my" computer; he is completely responsible for its upkeep, and therefore he gets to make all the decisions about components, updates, security software, etc.

 

We are ready, willing and eager for the children to mature to the point that they can take responsibility for their own things, but so far they are not there, and it has nothing to do with whether or not they have money.

 

Wendy

[gardenmom5]

Our kids shared most of the toys because we had a specific toy room where I kept most of the toys.  They each had a few special toys that they claimed for their own, which was fine, and they kept up with those and other sibs could only play with those if given permission by the owner of the toy.  

 

However.  None of our kids ever shared clothes.  It never even crossed my mind, or my kids' minds, I guess.  Maybe because I never had sisters?  But my brothers never shared clothes either.  Very clear boundaries between us sibs ... I rarely went into my brothers' room and they rarely went into my room.  Maybe we were just a very territorial family.   :tongue_smilie:

 

I would halt all 'borrowing' of anything immediately.  And come up with a plan to help straighten out the younger dd's thinking.  Because it's her thinking that's screwy, which you probably already know.  And the fact that she thinks it's funny, or just wants to minimize the behavior ("It's just clothes."), lied about it, is attempting to manipulate with tears, etc., would have me focusing my total attention on her to get to the root of the problem.  I know it's time consuming, and you said you are having a hard time right now, but if you don't address it now, and she continues to get away with all this manipulation ...  it might come back to bite you down the road.  

 

I might not even focus on the clothes so much except to protect the older sister somehow.  I would totally focus on the younger sister's destructive thinking and behavior.  Because all those manipulation tactics she's using are getting her what she wants, plus the lack of respect for boundaries.  

 

:grouphug:

when my kids were younger, I also gave them toys that added to the whole. they played with them together.

they would also get "special" things that were just for them - based upon their interests and needs.

then they got older and wanted more specific things.

 

as for sharing clothes - none of my kids have.  I have to girls - closest in age of all of my kids.   they never shared clothing, even though they often shared a room.  it never occurred to them.  

 

I would like to add as to the attitude - my sister not only "borrowed/stole" my clothes (she kept them in her room with her stuff) - she started stealing clothes/stuff from stores.   (yes, she was arrested for shoplifting by the time she was 16/17) her attitude was - she saw it and wanted it.   so she'd take it.    my mother was a very weak woman, in many respects.

 

 

Right. Your oldest is 11.

 

 

 

cute age - just before the tween years.    my youngest will be 13 in january.  I have kids in their 20's and 30's.    (and I'm STILL *not* a grandma!!!)

1ds thought the tween angst was adorable when it first showed up in dudeling . . . . :glare:   you deal with it then.   

 

Dd15 did blame her perceived lack of clothes on me. She said I "never take her shopping."

 

I can't tell you how many trips we have taken, just for her, only to come home empty handed.

And it's not an easy feat to just run out to the store. We 35 minutes to nearest shopping center.

 

2dd would find clothes shopping frustrating - mostly due to her height.   I was so grateful when 1dd took over taking her clothes shopping a few times so she could learn to be a bit more frugal while still meeting her needs for length in sleeves, etc.

 

The suggestion for big sister to take little sister clothes shopping is a good one.  It sounds like younger sister needs to learn *how* to shop for clothes, what to look for, etc. some people can't imagine what an outfit would look like.   it might help for her to learn.   but this is also up to big sister if she wants to help.

[fairfarmhand]

By the way, I have two girls age 19 and almost 16, who share a room. In my case the older is semi slightly jealous of her more petite sister who takes care of her things more carefully.
In fact, my older slightly fuller figure daughter is a little envious that her sister can wear almost anything and look cute. (This is my older daughter's insecurity talking. My younger daughter is very picky about styles and sticks to a few things that look really good on her. Older daughter is less confident in what is flattering for her body and wants to try styles that are "different" but they don't always work well on her body.)

 

In reality both of my girls are cute and beautiful but in their own ways.

 

They share a room, and younger doesn't like to share her things. Older is not as considerate and is sort of "It's just clothes."

 

So we've waded through this. It's not always just about being considerate. Some of it is about slight envy, maturity, fashion, body insecurity, etc.

 

Aren;t girls fun???

[maize]

You don't care if your stuff comes back dirty and torn and stained and in generally bad condition?

 

I don't believe you.

 

And even if that's how you are, you have ample evidence that the OP's daughter does care, greatly.

Some of us do care so little about clothes that something coming back stained or torn would elicit no more than a shrug :tongue_smilie:

 

There are reasons I do not own nice clothes! If I did I might have to expend energy worrying about them...

 

 

You're right though that since the older sister in the OP DOES care that needs to be taken into consideration.

[Tanaqui]

Some of us do care so little about clothes that something coming back stained or torn would elicit no more than a shrug :tongue_smilie:

 

Fair. I mean, my own clothes constantly end up stained or torn because I'm clumsy - happily, I'd rather spend my money on books anyway. This is why I don't borrow clothing, actually, and never did as a child. I can't take care of other people's clothes when they're on my body.

[amy g.]

In my house, my young children don't really own many things, but it has less to do with them not having money, and much more to do with them not yet having the maturity to be responsible for things.

 

For example, I "own" all the clothing in the house. I am responsible for purchasing it, keeping it clean and mended, making sure each person has adequate clothing that fits them, etc. When my oldest outgrows a pair of pants, I pass them down to his younger brother and replace them with larger ones. The pants were "his" while they fit him, but it would do no one any good to let him "own" a pair of too small pants and have to buy a new pair for his younger brother to own when he grows into that size.

 

The same philosophy does apply to DH's clothing as well, because he has no interest in being responsible for it. If a pair of his jeans are worn out, neither he nor I have any issue with me making the unilateral decision to discard and replace them. I buy, toss, borrow and reallocate "his" clothing as I see fit. He has willing given up true ownership of his clothing in exchange for not having to think about or be responsible for his wardrobe.

 

This seems to be our guiding policy on ownership. If we are ultimately in charge of maintaining an item, fixing it, replacing it, properly storing it, disposing of it when it is no longer usable, etc, then we are ultimately its owners even if we allow one of the children to have temporary possession. We are even ultimately in charge of "their" toothbrushes, because we are responsible for keeping track of them, keeping them sanitary, knowing when they need to be replaced, and buying new ones when a child throws theirs in the toilet in a fit of pique. Likewise, DH actually owns "my" computer; he is completely responsible for its upkeep, and therefore he gets to make all the decisions about components, updates, security software, etc.

 

We are ready, willing and eager for the children to mature to the point that they can take responsibility for their own things, but so far they are not there, and it has nothing to do with whether or not they have money.

 

Wendy

It just comes down to people just having different priorities.

 

I know that I am extreme in my need to be respected and respectful. I don't in any way think that other people are wrong for not being like me in this way.

 

In our family, it is the complete opposite. My 11 year old never wanted to pass down clothes to her little sister, so I didn't make her and now she is very happy to share because she knows that she has a choice.

 

I haven't ever washed Dh's clothes. He takes care of his own stuff, but he has a dresser full of old T shirts from high school and things he will never fit again.

 

Not my business.

 

I was surprised one day when he put on a football game in the bedroom and started filling up huge bags with stuff to give away.

 

Again, I didn't interfere and he decided for himself to let them go.

 

I don't think you are wrong at all for making unilateral decisions for your family, and it sounds like they are all happy for you to do it.

 

It is just that with my focus on respect and the personalities of my family, it works much better for us to err in the other direction.

[SKL]

I would tell them both that it has to be a two-way negotiation or no sharing at all.  I think the 17yo has a right to her feelings about sharing.  Just because the 15yo has a more open attitude about it does not mean the 17yo has to accommodate that with her personal stuff.

 

I was the older sister (though my sister outgrew me long before age 17).  My younger sister was messy and she would ruin clothes (stain them etc.) in just one use.  On top of that I was a control freak.  We shared a room and a bed - I think I deserved something I could call my own. So yeah, I would have a fit if I caught my sister wearing my clothes.  Luckily it didn't happen often.  :P

 

Eventually as an adult I became a much more generous person.  It needs to come from the heart though.  I don't think you can force generosity, especially not in the context of sibling rivalry.

 

I think younger sis needs consequences when she takes older sister's clothes without permission.  Maybe a rental tax or doing some of sister's chores.  On the other hand older sis needs to compensate younger sis for borrowing if that's how she wants to be.

[maize]

Maybe if younger sis steals an item of clothing from older sis that item is now hers but she has to buy an identical item to return to older sis.

 

I would do this only in conjunction with laundry and organization scaffolding and clothes shopping help for younger sis.

[HS Mom in NC]

I have 3 girls, the older two are adults and 2 year apart.

 

When my kids were young teens we started preparing them for adulthood when it came to managing money.  Part of that meant managing funds for their clothing.  We figured out about what we spent on them for clothing and cosmetics per year and added what we gave them in a modest allowance for their entertainment.  We divided that by 2 payments per month (24 payments per year.)   They started with envelope wallets with each category: clothing, cosmetics, allowance and they were given 1/24th of the annual budget for those in cash for each category on the 1st and the 16th of each month.   If they wanted to spend more than what was in the category they had to either take it out of another category or they had to earn it or both.  That's how real life works.  I gave no input/feedback at all about purchases unless specifically asked. They lived with the consequences.

They dd well with the cash system so after about a year we switched to a debit card and electronic deposits for their own accounts that were also ours.  We electronically deposited into their account the amount we had been giving them in cash.  When they were out of money they had to earn more or stop buying things.  It worked very well.

So there's NO WAY I would allow a communal attitude about clothing.  They did sometimes borrow things but they had to ask.  We didn't have a situation where one person was willing to erode the family relationship just to use stuff.  That's a terrible trade.  "My sister resents me and our relationship is damaged but I got to wear that cute top!" isn't a reality we had to live with in our house. And we value boundaries in our lives and enforce them.  Every boundary violating adult started out as a boundary violating kid and teen-that doesn't just come out of nowhere.  Boundary violators need lots of external rigid enforcement because they haven't yet developed inside themselves a conscience about other people. 

So no more sharing for at least a year. Either younger daughter needs a scheduled, enforced, overseen laundry schedule or she needs to feel the consequences of not taking care of her laundry.  She can wear wrinkled or dirty clothes.  She can wear the clean things she's not fond of.  Whatever.  But it's her problem, not the older sister's problem.

[Miss Peregrine]

I have 3 girls, the older two are adults and 2 year apart.

 

When my kids were young teens we started preparing them for adulthood when it came to managing money.  Part of that meant managing funds for their clothing.  We figured out about what we spent on them for clothing and cosmetics per year and added what we gave them in a modest allowance for their entertainment.  We divided that by 2 payments per month (24 payments per year.)   They started with envelope wallets with each category: clothing, cosmetics, allowance and they were given 1/24th of the annual budget for those in cash for each category on the 1st and the 16th of each month.   If they wanted to spend more than what was in the category they had to either take it out of another category or they had to earn it or both.  That's how real life works.  I gave no input/feedback at all about purchases unless specifically asked. They lived with the consequences.

 

They dd well with the cash system so after about a year we switched to a debit card and electronic deposits for their own accounts that were also ours.  We electronically deposited into their account the amount we had been giving them in cash.  When they were out of money they had to earn more or stop buying things.  It worked very well.

 

So there's NO WAY I would allow a communal attitude about clothing.  They did sometimes borrow things but they had to ask.  We didn't have a situation where one person was willing to erode the family relationship just to use stuff.  That's a terrible trade.  "My sister resents me and our relationship is damaged but I got to wear that cute top!" isn't a reality we had to live with in our house. And we value boundaries in our lives and enforce them.  Every boundary violating adult started out as a boundary violating kid and teen-that doesn't just come out of nowhere.  Boundary violators need lots of external rigid enforcement because they haven't yet developed inside themselves a conscience about other people. 

 

So no more sharing for at least a year. Either younger daughter needs a scheduled, enforced, overseen laundry schedule or she needs to feel the consequences of not taking care of her laundry.  She can wear wrinkled or dirty clothes.  She can wear the clean things she's not fond of.  Whatever.  But it's her problem, not the older sister's problem.

She is the golden child of a boundary-violating adult.

[SKL]

Wow I am surprised by the response. 

 

 

Here is how I handle it now with my kids.  That nothing is really theirs so people can use things of others in our house.  

Since the kids don't buy anything I don't believe any thing is "theirs"

I get them to think that they get to use or have what their sibling has so it is a win win.  

 

I would rather promote a fun sharing home than put locks on doors and dressers.   

 

This works great up to a certain age.  My kids have always shared almost everything, but as they get older they want to be their own person, and that includes owning their own stuff, particularly personal items, which clothes are IMO.  My girls still share almost everything, voluntarily, more than I would actually expect from sisters.  But if they want to draw boundaries on their personal stuff as tweens or teens, then I think that is very reasonable.

 

And I have a younger who would probably not mind the older borrowing.  That's beside the point IMO.  I do expect the older to ask or negotiate if she wants to "take advantage" of younger's openness.  And funny thing, my older is actually the more generous one, provided she is the one deciding to give / share.

 

[mommyoffive]

This works great up to a certain age.  My kids have always shared almost everything, but as they get older they want to be their own person, and that includes owning their own stuff, particularly personal items, which clothes are IMO.  My girls still share almost everything, voluntarily, more than I would actually expect from sisters.  But if they want to draw boundaries on their personal stuff as tweens or teens, then I think that is very reasonable.

 

And I have a younger who would probably not mind the older borrowing.  That's beside the point IMO.  I do expect the older to ask or negotiate if she wants to "take advantage" of younger's openness.  And funny thing, my older is actually the more generous one, provided she is the one deciding to give / share.

 

 

Yes maybe.  But I also think it has to do with the people in the situation and the family dynamic. 

[amy g.]

I have 3 girls, the older two are adults and 2 year apart.

 

When my kids were young teens we started preparing them for adulthood when it came to managing money. Part of that meant managing funds for their clothing. We figured out about what we spent on them for clothing and cosmetics per year and added what we gave them in a modest allowance for their entertainment. We divided that by 2 payments per month (24 payments per year.) They started with envelope wallets with each category: clothing, cosmetics, allowance and they were given 1/24th of the annual budget for those in cash for each category on the 1st and the 16th of each month. If they wanted to spend more than what was in the category they had to either take it out of another category or they had to earn it or both. That's how real life works. I gave no input/feedback at all about purchases unless specifically asked. They lived with the consequences.

 

They dd well with the cash system so after about a year we switched to a debit card and electronic deposits for their own accounts that were also ours. We electronically deposited into their account the amount we had been giving them in cash. When they were out of money they had to earn more or stop buying things. It worked very well.

 

So there's NO WAY I would allow a communal attitude about clothing. They did sometimes borrow things but they had to ask. We didn't have a situation where one person was willing to erode the family relationship just to use stuff. That's a terrible trade. "My sister resents me and our relationship is damaged but I got to wear that cute top!" isn't a reality we had to live with in our house. And we value boundaries in our lives and enforce them. Every boundary violating adult started out as a boundary violating kid and teen-that doesn't just come out of nowhere. Boundary violators need lots of external rigid enforcement because they haven't yet developed inside themselves a conscience about other people.

 

So no more sharing for at least a year. Either younger daughter needs a scheduled, enforced, overseen laundry schedule or she needs to feel the consequences of not taking care of her laundry. She can wear wrinkled or dirty clothes. She can wear the clean things she's not fond of. Whatever. But it's her problem, not the older sister's problem.

Quoting for truth!

[Annie G]

Dd15 did blame her perceived lack of clothes on me. She said I "never take her shopping."

 

I can't tell you how many trips we have taken, just for her, only to come home empty handed.

And it's not an easy feat to just run out to the store. We 35 minutes to nearest shopping center.

 

I think she tossed that out there as a way to shift blame to you.  The issue of borrowing her sister's clothes without permission shows a lack of respect, as does not taking care of them when she does borrow them. If the real issue is that you won't buy her things, then what is causing her to be irresponsible with the borrowed items? Why is she neglecting to do her own laundry? Why is she so flippant that they are 'just clothes'? 

 

I'm not saying that you shouldn't buy her some clothes, but I AM saying that she's trying to manipulate the situation to make it appear that it's not her fault. I've raised four kids to adulthood.  Been there, recognize the tricks. 

[TechWife]

Sort of true I guess, but it is still my house to make the rules that they have to follow.

 

But yeah things do change

As the youngest of five and the mother of one adult, glad you see that things change. Be warned that the biggest change you will likely encounter is the time when your kids each realize that they are their own person and in fact, don’t have to follow your rules. They might decide that some rules just don't matter to them and they don’t care about whatever consequence you dream up, they’d rather do what they want to do. Then, they might figure out that this extends to the consequences, too. Just because they are grounded, doesn’t mean they have to stay at home, for example.

 

Not only this, but eventually you will realize that you can’t control your children and the choices they make. In fact, you will realize that you’ve never really controlled them, they have always made choices, but before you could largely get them to agree that your choices were their choices. When they are older, they will realize this isn’t necessarily the case and at some point you will realize you are powerless to stop them. That is when an adult to adult relationship can begin to develop, when you become an advisor, not a rule maker.

[lllll]

nm 

 

Edited November 19, 2017 by _______

[Tanaqui]

And agreed - "sharing" under coercion is socialism and likely to promote poor relationships.

 

Yo, I'm a legit socialist, and I still think young adults are or should be allowed to have their own personal things. Just because I want resources to be distributed fairly does not mean I want to share my favorite t-shirt with my neighbor, thanks!

 

[Jaybee]

She is the golden child of a boundary-violating adult.

 

:grouphug:

[Melissa in Australia]

Nope they can't because our things are payed for by us. They don't buy their own things we do.

 

Wow opening gifts with a sharpie? That is just not how it rolls in our house.

 

Even on Christmas there are no gifts for a certain kid. They are all just presents for everyone to share. For us we have less bickering this way because everyone knows that we share things.

Then I guess they never have the desire to do extra tasks to earn their own thing, or when they get older no desire to get a part time job to get some money to save up for anything . Because they may lack the drive to have pride in their belongings, cause they never have their own belongings to take pride in.whatever they earn will just be communal.

 

I think this approach to life has been trailed in different communes and hasn't brought the best results. People living there lacked a desire to put much effort into anything.

[cave canem]

Then I guess they never have the desire to do extra tasks to earn their own thing, or when they get older no desire to get a part time job to get some money to save up for anything . Because they may lack the drive to have pride in their belongings, cause they never have their own belongings to take pride in.whatever they earn will just be communal.

The Tragedy of the Commons

[Tanaqui]

I think this approach to life has been trailed in different communes and hasn't brought the best results. People living there lacked a desire to put much effort into anything.

 

While I do think she's not thinking this through, as a counterpoint I'd like to suggest that the Hutterites live largely like this and they certainly put effort into their work. (And they're not the only ones either.)

 

But they have a whole social structure which makes this sort of life work for them. Mommyoffive is not living in one of those societies, I don't think. She's living in this society. Her kids have to adapt to this society, where we don't all live communally and share everything. Everything they read or watch on TV, every interaction they have with other people, it all reinforces a different societal set of norms than "share everything, nothing is your own".

[lllll]

nm 

 

Edited November 19, 2017 by _______

[SKL]

Yes maybe.  But I also think it has to do with the people in the situation and the family dynamic. 

 

I live in a house shared with unrelated adult women, so I think our "family dynamic" promotes sharing.  We politely share each other's stuff quite regularly.  Depending on what it is, I might not even ask first.  (But I would if the other person would care about it.)

 

Living in a household with lots of sharing, I feel it's that much more important to teach consideration for others' rights and boundaries.  You can trample upon family up to a point, knowing they are going to trample back when they are out of sorts.  But knowing the limits of that is important.

 

My eldest is very particular about what she wears.  She plans it days in advance and checks to make sure the laundry is done etc.  If something goes wrong and she has to wear a less favorite outfit, she isn't happy.  My other kid wakes up and grabs whatever she finds hanging in her closet that meets the dress code.  (Extra points if it's purple, but otherwise anything goes.)  Both raised by the same parent, living in the same household.  Neither one is better.

 

My younger is not the most considerate person, but she would know that taking her sister's "cute clothes" without asking would be a problem.

 

An example of a somewhat similar issue - my younger decided to use my Aveeno bath soap to enjoy a "bubble bath."  I told her not to do that again.  She did it again.  At this point my bath soap is almost empty although it was recently purchased.  Consequences for doing this AFTER being told clearly not to:  she is not allowed to take a sit bath for a while and she will have to buy my next bottle of soap if she does this again.  You can say it's "just soap," but an attitude that "I do what I want with other people's stuff" does not go over well.  (If she wanted to buy her own soap / bubble bath and do the same, fine.) We do have issues with her ignoring reasonable requests / instructions to make her a better housemate.  We're working on it.

 

That said, I don't think this is a precursor to criminality or anything at that level of seriousness.  I think a fair and consistent approach will work out in the long run.

[GoodGrief]

Going to say first that I thought I was the most skilled mother in the world when I had three compliant little girls. The teen years, followed by the young adult years, were supremely humbling for me. By the time you have it figured out, they are grown and gone.

 

I think you did fine talking to your younger daughter (and the complaint about "you never take me shopping" is classic teen girl deflection for some personalities. She is embarrassed about being called on the behavior.) It's clear now what the expectations are, and there will have to be a consequence of some sort if it happens again. Figuring out consequences is tougher for some teens than others. Taking the phone works beautifully for my current teen, but would have been problematic with my oldest (who would have been fine confined to her room reading a book for the duration.)

 

Shopping WAS a nightmare with my older two, who would get overwhelmed. The body changes and changing sense of style in the teen years can make it tough to figure out what is right. I think the idea for the girls to shop together is a good one, and it might help if you could manage to let them do it without you around (but maybe available by phone to approve prices. Alternatively you could set a budget before.) We made one of our daughters an approved user of our credit card, and it really helped her shopping problem when she could shop without ME observing. :-)

[mommyoffive]

I live in a house shared with unrelated adult women, so I think our "family dynamic" promotes sharing.  We politely share each other's stuff quite regularly.  Depending on what it is, I might not even ask first.  (But I would if the other person would care about it.)

 

Living in a household with lots of sharing, I feel it's that much more important to teach consideration for others' rights and boundaries.  You can trample upon family up to a point, knowing they are going to trample back when they are out of sorts.  But knowing the limits of that is important.

 

My eldest is very particular about what she wears.  She plans it days in advance and checks to make sure the laundry is done etc.  If something goes wrong and she has to wear a less favorite outfit, she isn't happy.  My other kid wakes up and grabs whatever she finds hanging in her closet that meets the dress code.  (Extra points if it's purple, but otherwise anything goes.)  Both raised by the same parent, living in the same household.  Neither one is better.

 

My younger is not the most considerate person, but she would know that taking her sister's "cute clothes" without asking would be a problem.

 

An example of a somewhat similar issue - my younger decided to use my Aveeno bath soap to enjoy a "bubble bath."  I told her not to do that again.  She did it again.  At this point my bath soap is almost empty although it was recently purchased.  Consequences for doing this AFTER being told clearly not to:  she is not allowed to take a sit bath for a while and she will have to buy my next bottle of soap if she does this again.  You can say it's "just soap," but an attitude that "I do what I want with other people's stuff" does not go over well.  (If she wanted to buy her own soap / bubble bath and do the same, fine.) We do have issues with her ignoring reasonable requests / instructions to make her a better housemate.  We're working on it.

 

That said, I don't think this is a precursor to criminality or anything at that level of seriousness.  I think a fair and consistent approach will work out in the long run.

 

I agree with your approach.  That is pretty much the same here. 

[mommyoffive]

Then I guess they never have the desire to do extra tasks to earn their own thing, or when they get older no desire to get a part time job to get some money to save up for anything . Because they may lack the drive to have pride in their belongings, cause they never have their own belongings to take pride in.whatever they earn will just be communal.

 

I think this approach to life has been trailed in different communes and hasn't brought the best results. People living there lacked a desire to put much effort into anything.

 

Not how they act at all.  All of them are very motivated to work, have constant ideas for now and the future.  They are earning their own money now.  Whatever they earn is not communal at all, that is up to them to decide if they want to share it.   I have said that more before. 

[mommyoffive]

As the youngest of five and the mother of one adult, glad you see that things change. Be warned that the biggest change you will likely encounter is the time when your kids each realize that they are their own person and in fact, don’t have to follow your rules. They might decide that some rules just don't matter to them and they don’t care about whatever consequence you dream up, they’d rather do what they want to do. Then, they might figure out that this extends to the consequences, too. Just because they are grounded, doesn’t mean they have to stay at home, for example.

 

Not only this, but eventually you will realize that you can’t control your children and the choices they make. In fact, you will realize that you’ve never really controlled them, they have always made choices, but before you could largely get them to agree that your choices were their choices. When they are older, they will realize this isn’t necessarily the case and at some point you will realize you are powerless to stop them. That is when an adult to adult relationship can begin to develop, when you become an advisor, not a rule maker.

 

We have already been through that, not to say it isn't going to happen more in the future.  But I have crossed those bridges more than once already. 

[eternalsummer]

Given the OP's answer, I will add to my original answer. Since part of the problem stems from DD15 being irresponsible about laundry, she would get the "opportunity" to be much more involved in laundry.

 

To help with the sibling relationship, perhaps DD17 could go along when DD15 shops to suggest those "cuter" clothes.

 

And agreed - "sharing" under coercion is socialism and likely to promote poor relationships.

 

I don't know that you can call sharing resources within a family socialism.  The whole idea of socialism was to break down the family bond and the tendency to want to procure/produce more for your family in favor of sharing with everyone in the state.

 

I think if these kids were 3 and 4, or even 7 and 9, people might feel differently.  It's just that for us, in this society, kids, who are 15 and 17 are generally more independent of the family than 3 and 5 year olds; they often have their own bank accounts, their own transportation, their own ways of procuring money outside the family (though they don't yet provide for most of their own sustenance), etc.  

 

 

Personally I think a lot of the issue is that the younger kid doesn't treat the clothes well, largely because she doesn't see them as as inherently valuable as the older sister, and that much of the reason she wants to borrow is that she doesn't have clean clothes available when she wants or needs them.  I'd just explain to her that older sister is very attached to her possessions and prefers them to stay in great condition (and does the work to make sure they do so), and that doing a load of her own laundry every three days is absolutely required.

 

FWIW, I was a clothes-stealer as a kid.  I am not a bad person, hah.  I have an executive function deficit; my mom and I never cared whether anyone took our clothes, and when my best friend moved in with us during junior year I just sort of assumed it was correct among people of the same age/size to share each others' clothes.  Also, mine were hard to find and rarely clean or ironed; hers were color coded in her closet and always perfect.  It took until she freaked out at me once after I got a bleach spot on one of her shirts to realize some people were picky about clothing and I should leave her stuff alone in order not to live through WW3.

[gardenmom5]

I think she tossed that out there as a way to shift blame to you.  The issue of borrowing her sister's clothes without permission shows a lack of respect, as does not taking care of them when she does borrow them. If the real issue is that you won't buy her things, then what is causing her to be irresponsible with the borrowed items? Why is she neglecting to do her own laundry? Why is she so flippant that they are 'just clothes'? 

 

I'm not saying that you shouldn't buy her some clothes, but I AM saying that she's trying to manipulate the situation to make it appear that it's not her fault. I've raised four kids to adulthood.  Been there, recognize the tricks. 

 

:iagree:   this.  absolutely this.   

OP you said she is the golden-child of a boundary violating adult.    this is exactly what she is doing.  I was raised in that environment.   (I was the scapegoat. I saw it all.)

 

As the youngest of five and the mother of one adult, glad you see that things change. Be warned that the biggest change you will likely encounter is the time when your kids each realize that they are their own person and in fact, don’t have to follow your rules. They might decide that some rules just don't matter to them and they don’t care about whatever consequence you dream up, they’d rather do what they want to do. Then, they might figure out that this extends to the consequences, too. Just because they are grounded, doesn’t mean they have to stay at home, for example.

 

Not only this, but eventually you will realize that you can’t control your children and the choices they make. In fact, you will realize that you’ve never really controlled them, they have always made choices, but before you could largely get them to agree that your choices were their choices. When they are older, they will realize this isn’t necessarily the case and at some point you will realize you are powerless to stop them. That is when an adult to adult relationship can begin to develop, when you become an advisor, not a rule maker.

 

hopefully.  hopefully you will eventually realize for *their* well-being, you do not *want* to control them.   my grandmother never learned, and my mother gave up trying to be independent. while my mom was young, and even when she was in college, things "looked" like they were functional - but they weren't.   

 

 

Going to say first that I thought I was the most skilled mother in the world when I had three compliant little girls. The teen years, followed by the young adult years, were supremely humbling for me. By the time you have it figured out, they are grown and gone.

 

 

my sister has two girls eight years apart.   she knew all about parenting.  she even knew about parenting boys - after all, kids are just blank slates.  right?  right??

then she took three 12 yo boys out in a canoe  :blink:  :blink: :ohmy:   :eek:  :eek:    

my response to her report was:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :smilielol5:  :smilielol5:   (I had two boys at that time.)

[Ausmumof3]

I am so going to start using this with my kid! "I'm revoking your license to bike. You can reapply after completing a parent approved safety course and a minimum wait of 2 weeks."

 

:lol:

I literally did this when DS was a toddler and was cutting in front of people on his bike. I told him he'd have to demonstrate that he could ride safely to obtain his bike license 😆

[Ausmumof3]

It just comes down to people just having different priorities.

 

I know that I am extreme in my need to be respected and respectful. I don't in any way think that other people are wrong for not being like me in this way.

 

In our family, it is the complete opposite. My 11 year old never wanted to pass down clothes to her little sister, so I didn't make her and now she is very happy to share because she knows that she has a choice.

 

I haven't ever washed Dh's clothes. He takes care of his own stuff, but he has a dresser full of old T shirts from high school and things he will never fit again.

 

Not my business.

 

I was surprised one day when he put on a football game in the bedroom and started filling up huge bags with stuff to give away.

 

Again, I didn't interfere and he decided for himself to let them go.

 

I don't think you are wrong at all for making unilateral decisions for your family, and it sounds like they are all happy for you to do it.

 

It is just that with my focus on respect and the personalities of my family, it works much better for us to err in the other direction.

 

I think it's harder when you are responsible for all the laundry. DH tends to stuff his closets full like really full then complain when he can't find socks or jocks. he will eventually clean out but I will have been struggling to put his clothes away for a long time by then.

[Ausmumof3]

While I do think she's not thinking this through, as a counterpoint I'd like to suggest that the Hutterites live largely like this and they certainly put effort into their work. (And they're not the only ones either.)

 

But they have a whole social structure which makes this sort of life work for them. Mommyoffive is not living in one of those societies, I don't think. She's living in this society. Her kids have to adapt to this society, where we don't all live communally and share everything. Everything they read or watch on TV, every interaction they have with other people, it all reinforces a different societal set of norms than "share everything, nothing is your own".

Yes so true. I remember reading about a hunter gatherer tribe where no one was allowed to retain ownership of anything especially good. If someone had an extra good knife it had to be passed around the tribe to prevent envy. I think this is great but you can't totally ignore the culture you are living in.

[GoodGrief]

 

 

 

my sister has two girls eight years apart.   she knew all about parenting.  she even knew about parenting boys - after all, kids are just blank slates.  right?  right??

then she took three 12 yo boys out in a canoe  :blink:  :blink: :ohmy:   :eek:  :eek:    

my response to her report was:     (I had two boys at that time.)

 

Ha, yes, I definitely felt superior to the parents of those wild little boys. :lol:

 

Ah, my parenting glory days, long past :laugh:

[TechWife]

We have already been through that, not to say it isn't going to happen more in the future. But I have crossed those bridges more than once already.

The thing is, I think this is a bridge that is crossed once per child. Each of these realizations happens only one time, and then we move on from there. Back & forth means boundaries are being tested, but it doesn’t mean the reality and the exact location of those boundaries is fully realized. Edited November 16, 2017 by TechWife

[Ali in OR]

Op, shopping/bonding opportunity ahead:

 

For the last couple of years, my 17 yo and almost 15 yo have joined me in Black Friday shopping at a mall that is pleasantly busy, but not crazy. We might do a little together, but mostly they go one way with a phone and I go another. If I were in your shoes, we would all be starting out together at American Eagle, H&M, and Hollister. The one with more mature fashion sense would help pick cute things for the other, as well as for herself. I know at American Eagle the last few years, everything in the store has been 40% off on Black Friday--otherwise it's a bit expensive. My dds would show me stuff they like then they would skedaddle and I would make the final selection and purchase known winners for under the Christmas tree. One week from tomorrow!

[KungFuPanda]

I think we’re running into very different parenting philosophies. When kids are little and you’re teaching sharing skills you can have rules that apply only in your home and it can somehow work. Eventually you have to transition to the mindset that you are raising adults, not children, and teach them skills that will benefit them out in the world. There comes an age where doing only what makes your life easier or your own household run smoother is no longer in your children’s best interest. The real world has boundaries and you have to learn that you’re not entitled to other people’s things just because you WANT them. This breeds a keeping-up-with-the-Jones mentality as they scramble for more Stuff. This creates the nightmare college roommate who steals other people’s property and believes they are “just borrowing†and “it’s no big deal.†At the extreme end this is a criminal mindset and the thief believes she deserves the things she stole. On a household level you could have a 16-year-old “borrowingâ€your car without asking then acting shocked that you got mad about it. Even if this kid knows to only treat their siblings’ belongings as communal property, it sends the message to the siblings that every other person on the planet is more important than them. . . . that it’s easier to disregard their boundaries than it is to parent the disrespectful child.