Help me understand this mom. CC and atheist

[JFSinIL]

I would tell her you've read her blog, that you're very uncomfortable with it, and to please stay away from your kids. She sounds like a fanatic nut. I'd nip any relationship with her and the family in the bud immediately.

 

I agree!!!!!! She is out-Flandering Ned Flanders!!!!!

[Gretchen in NJ]

Okay, I'm a christian and this blog entry truly bothered me. Blogs are not private (obviously) and she goes into great detail about your dd. She's 7 and I believe it crosses the line BIG time. She also needs to learn to use paragraphs. I would never blog about another CHILD, I didn't even post photos from ds' basketball because there were other kids in them. It's called respect and privacy.

 

I know facebook can have you remove unauthorized photos from another person's page, I wonder what blogger has for security? That post goes into so much detail about the comings and goings of your dd that I think it's a security risk.

 

As for the evangelizing to children, I believe there is a setting for that, it's church. As a christian if a child visits my home we may pray before meals, discuss God as a matter of conversation, but I would NOT attempt to convert or preach to a child without knowing their parents beliefs.

 

:grouphug: No wonder you are livid.

 

I agree with Paula here. I would be and was livid when my atheist sister told my dd9 who was 3 years old at the time that there was no God.:glare: My sister has not been left a lone with my children since then. We have recently started to let them talk on the phone with her again.

 

I think she finally understands now that she has had her own child. Parents should be able to guide their own children into adulthood as they see fit.

[Aubrey]

I kept thinking about this and it really has me ticked. The responses from the couple of people who say they are "torn" on the issue is especially irksome.

 

Just because your religion tells you to spread the word to others doesn't mean you have any real right to do it, especially to someone else's child.

 

I don't think this woman has any right to discuss religion with your child without your permission. Were it me, I would tell her to quit her religious ambush and disallow any contact with my child ever again. If she continued, I'd seriously consider a restraining order. I would consider what she is doing mental and emotional assault.

 

And her blog posts about your daughter... creepy doesn't even begin to cover it. I would be afraid for my child's safety.

 

I was torn on the issue because I'd never really thought about it, kwim? And I said so in an attempt to be honest. It seemed a little too pat for me, as a Christian, to simply say, "How awful!"

 

Instinct tells you not to mess w/ other people's kids & what they believe. When your faith calls for spreading, then you've got some working out to do. Blog-lady chose to ignore her instincts. I understand that conclusion. I disagree with it, but I understand it.

 

It's a good question for Christians to think about. I bet if someone had given this lady a hypothetical situation like the one she really found herself in, she'd have had the time & thought to come to a different conclusion. On the fly? When you've just committed yourself so fully to something? An opportunity to tell someone something that one deems harmless arises & she just doesn't stop to think about the ramifications.

 

It seems obvious now, but I could see making the same kind of mistake. Let's put it in a different context--a woman is giving her kids a snack & offers some to a neighbor kid who's over. She doesn't think about the possibility that the kid's allergic to peanuts or whatever she's serving until it's too late. That's a BIG deal but an easy mistake. (Everybody w/ dc w/ food allergies makes a mental note not to send them to Aubrey's house.) This lady did put a lot of thought into what she did, but only from one perspective.

 

As far as the "right" to spread a religion--I'm not sure anyone's claiming that. You said the woman has no right to discuss religion w/ OP's dd. I don't think anyone disagrees w/ that. The fact that she did simply introduces a dilemma I hadn't seen before.

[chiguirre]

If she has given up almost everything in order to tell people what she believes, that act in itself is an expression of deep love & respect for the people she ends up telling.

 

I found this post very interesting. I do see why you hold your pov, but I disagree with it completely. I see her actions as an expression of profound arrogance and disrespect for the people she's proselytizing. I'm not trying to snark, I really mean this. Telling someone about your faith uninvited is IMHO an invasion of their personal mental space. It's at least as irritating as someone invading your physical space. Doing this to a child who can't really articulate their own beliefs clearly yet is unbelievably disrespectful to both that child and their parents. I think it's very important to really put yourself in the other person's shoes. How would you feel if someone told your child there is no god and anyone with any sense would realize that? I'm sure you'd be horrified and rightly so. No reasonable adult would do such a thing (although I know there are some fanatics who have).

 

ETA: Whoops! I guess you already came to the same conclusion while I was comtemplating...Sorry!

Edited March 13, 2009 by chiguirre

[Audrey]

I was torn on the issue because I'd never really thought about it, kwim? And I said so in an attempt to be honest. It seemed a little too pat for me, as a Christian, to simply say, "How awful!"

 

....

 

As far as the "right" to spread a religion--I'm not sure anyone's claiming that. You said the woman has no right to discuss religion w/ OP's dd. I don't think anyone disagrees w/ that. The fact that she did simply introduces a dilemma I hadn't seen before.

 

 

I get that, Aubrey... I'm not completely incapable of understanding someone's passion for a faith. I get that.

 

I don't think that it should be an excuse that is allowed to eclipse good judgement though. Other people's kids are always out-of-bounds. And, I know you're agreeing with that. I'm not arguing that. Just clarifying further, which I appreciate that you did as well.

[jamnkats]

I was torn on the issue because I'd never really thought about it, kwim? And I said so in an attempt to be honest. It seemed a little too pat for me, as a Christian, to simply say, "How awful!"

 

Instinct tells you not to mess w/ other people's kids & what they believe. When your faith calls for spreading, then you've got some working out to do. Blog-lady chose to ignore her instincts. I understand that conclusion. I disagree with it, but I understand it.

 

It's a good question for Christians to think about. I bet if someone had given this lady a hypothetical situation like the one she really found herself in, she'd have had the time & thought to come to a different conclusion. On the fly? When you've just committed yourself so fully to something? An opportunity to tell someone something that one deems harmless arises & she just doesn't stop to think about the ramifications.

 

It seems obvious now, but I could see making the same kind of mistake. Let's put it in a different context--a woman is giving her kids a snack & offers some to a neighbor kid who's over. She doesn't think about the possibility that the kid's allergic to peanuts or whatever she's serving until it's too late. That's a BIG deal but an easy mistake. (Everybody w/ dc w/ food allergies makes a mental note not to send them to Aubrey's house.) This lady did put a lot of thought into what she did, but only from one perspective.

 

As far as the "right" to spread a religion--I'm not sure anyone's claiming that. You said the woman has no right to discuss religion w/ OP's dd. I don't think anyone disagrees w/ that. The fact that she did simply introduces a dilemma I hadn't seen before.

 

I've been talking to my Mormon neighbor, my 12yo and my daughter all evening. Among other things, the reason this woman's actions are so repugnant to me is that she proved herself to be an unsafe adult. And this is what I told my child. When my daughter plugged her ears because she was DONE with the sermons, the woman continued to push her views. Over and over, my daughter gave a boundary and this woman ignored that boundary and pushed her views on my daughter until my daughter relented and gave in. This was over the course of weeks. I'm not sure if you got that Aubrey (hope I spelled that correctly). It wasn't a one-time thing.

 

She targeted my daughter, the youngest and most impressionable and kept at her and at her and at her until she finally relented and "believed in God'. In my view, that makes her equal to a sexual predator without the molestion. She just mind-**cked her.

[chiguirre]

I've been thinking about this whole situation all afternoon. I wrote that I would be inclined to document everything she'd written ... It's this stalker thing that gets me. It is not right. I would have a talk with her or, as Ria suggested, comment on her blog, cut off contact, and document all my interactions with the woman and print everything she's written.

 

I think Nicole is right. I'd print out her blog posts relating to your dd, then I'd post my objection in her comments. Then I'd contact her sponsoring organization and file a formal complaint (if you can do that, I don't know if they take complaints). I'd never let my kids go to her house again although I'd let her kids play at my house or in a neutral place. I think I'd also teach my dd some atheist "apologetics" to use if she finds herself in that situation again. I really sympathize with your situation and I hope you can resolve it soon.

[Nicole M]

I've been talking to my Mormon neighbor, my 12yo and my daughter all evening. Among other things, the reason this woman's actions are so repugnant to me is that she proved herself to be an unsafe adult. And this is what I told my child. When my daughter plugged her ears because she was DONE with the sermons, the woman continued to push her views. Over and over, my daughter gave a boundary and this woman ignored that boundary and pushed her views on my daughter until my daughter relented and gave in. This was over the course of weeks. I'm not sure if you got that Aubrey (hope I spelled that correctly). It wasn't a one-time thing.

 

She targeted my daughter, the youngest and most impressionable and kept at her and at her and at her until she finally relented and "believed in God'. In my view, that makes her equal to a sexual predator without the molestion. She just mind-**cked her.

 

Thank you for this. I have had two experiences with people trying to convert me that totally violated me, that I have even spoken about here as being nothing less than emotional rape.

 

You are right, and I would be absolutely enraged if this were to happen to my child.

 

Truly, thank you for your honesty about this.

 

I'm so sorry this happened.

[Aubrey]

I found this post very interesting. I do see why you hold your pov, but I disagree with it completely. I see her actions as an expression of profound arrogance and disrespect for the people she's proselytizing. I'm not trying to snark, I really mean this. Telling someone about your faith uninvited is IMHO an invasion of their personal mental space. It's at least as irritating as someone invading your physical space. Doing this to a child who can't really articulate their own beliefs clearly yet is unbelievably disrespectful to both that child and their parents. I think it's very important to really put yourself in the other person's shoes. How would you feel if someone told your child there is no god and anyone with any sense would realize that? I'm sure you'd be horrified and rightly so. No reasonable adult would do such a thing (although I know there are some fanatics who have).

 

ETA: Whoops! I guess you already came to the same conclusion while I was comtemplating...Sorry!

 

I didn't mean to imply in the post you're referring to that witnessing to a child behind his parents' backs is ok. I just know that any kind of missionary work, on its surface, *can* look completely arrogant. That fact really bothers me, since I am a Christian. How can a person share their faith, if they believe they must, without coming across as arrogant or invasive?

 

Giving up so much of what we hold dear--financial security, normalcy, furniture, *stuff*--could be understood as an act of humility & love. I, for one, would much rather keep my trap shut & sit in a cozy chair reading a good book, so when *anyone* gives up their own comfort to such a degree for *any* cause, I think that deserves my respect. Does that make sense? Not that the actions that she then carried out were right, just that her intentions may have been kinder than they seemed.

[Rosie_0801]

1) The puppy- yes, I could see myself doing that. There is no separation between my Christian walk and any generosity that comes out of me. I'm really not generous on my own.

 

2) Talking to another's child about God- Not the way she is doing. I do not hide my faith. My kids openly talk about God and Jesus often. BUT, I would not ask the leading questions that she is doing. If asked, I would absolutely answer my truthful beliefs, but I would not pursue conversations of the sort. In my experience, 7yos don't usually ask adults other than their parents questions unless they are very close with that adult. Well, maybe some 7yos, but I can't think of one time I've been asked a question about God by someone else's 7yo outside of church/close friend setting.

 

3)blogging about it- NO! NO! NO! On one hand, at least you know what is going on. On the other, wow it's so wrong.

 

 

 

This would be fine in my non-Christian opinion. One ought to expect religion from religious people since it's a part of life. To me, the issue wouldn't be about religion, but about her complete lack of manners.

 

Rosie

Edited March 13, 2009 by Rosie_0801

[elegantlion]

I think Nicole is right. I'd print out her blog posts relating to your dd, then I'd post my objection in her comments. Then I'd contact her sponsoring organization and file a formal complaint (if you can do that, I don't know if they take complaints). I'd never let my kids go to her house again although I'd let her kids play at my house or in a neutral place. I think I'd also teach my dd some atheist "apologetics" to use if she finds herself in that situation again. I really sympathize with your situation and I hope you can resolve it soon.

 

She probably doesn't have a sponsoring organization. Most FOTR (see the link in her blog) families are self-supporting. the FOTR group is a well diversified RVing group, not a christian organization, just for clarification.

[Nicole M]

She probably doesn't have a sponsoring organization. Most FOTR (see the link in her blog) families are self-supporting. the FOTR group is a well diversified RVing group, not a christian organization, just for clarification.

 

Didn't she mean the sponsoring organization of the Blog site?

[jamnkats]

Well, I can't tell you all how much your posts have meant to me. I missed all the snark so I have no idea what happened over the deleted posts. I've been mulling all day. I've been talking to my Mormon neighbor (4 kids, NEVER pushes her views on us) and she TOTALLY got my anger and "victimization" when I asked her how she'd feel if I pushed our non-believing views on her kids, day after day, after day after day. Her youngest is 9 and a very strong personality but she started to "get" it then.

 

What I really wanted my daughter to understand is that she did NOTHING wrong, that this woman proved herself to be an unsafe adult and how she proved herself to be unsafe and why this woman was unsafe and what an adult who was safe would have done. I also verified many of the details of the blog - just to make sure the events did happen - without leading questions. Well, mostly without asking leading questions. That's hard. :) My daughter did feel defensive and bad at first but eventually came around to talking and throughout the evening (I tried talking to her while we were doing activities; laundry and dinner) she would come up to me with other things she had identified as crossing boundary lines.

 

So, I really have to look at this as a learning experience and be thankful that this was "just" a brainwash attempt and not a sexual molestation. Because the signals and signs and methods are exactly the same to me. Someone crosses your boundaries and doesn't respect them and tries to use their position of power to get you to do what they want.

 

My 12yo is LIVID and wants to confront the woman. I will definitely confront her but need to get to a calm place where she can hear that I'm pissed because she did not respect my daughter's boundaries - NOT that she believes in God.

 

I honestly don't care what my kids believe and we've had many conversations about that. We're even doing a World Religion study this year. :)

 

My daughter has been giving me signals for a while. Scared at night, bad dreams and acting "weird" at times. I am trying not to beat myself up for allowing this to happen but instead use this as a learning experience for the both of us.

 

We'll allow the girls to come over here but my daughter is very much in agreement that she does not even WANT to go over to this woman's place without her brother.

 

Again, thanks everyone for your opinions, even the evangelicals - it helps me to know she is coming from a place of love and while I do understand that, she cannot be allowed to railroad my child to achieve her goals.

[elegantlion]

Didn't she mean the sponsoring organization of the Blog site?

 

Oh, I don't know, could be.

[Crissy]

Only somewhat related to her inappropriate behavior, Kathy, may I ask how you found out about her blog? Did she share the link with you, or did you have to find it another way?

[myfunnybunch]

Let's put it in a different context--a woman is giving her kids a snack & offers some to a neighbor kid who's over. She doesn't think about the possibility that the kid's allergic to peanuts or whatever she's serving until it's too late. That's a BIG deal but an easy mistake.

 

I think it's more along the lines of knowing the neighbor kid has a peanut allergy and offering her peanuts anyway, without telling the parents, in an attempt to cure the peanut allergy. Obviously sharing about God isn't going to send the child to the ER, but it's obvious from the blog entry that this was more than a simple mistake.

 

Cat

[jamnkats]

Only somewhat related to her inappropriate behavior, Kathy, may I ask how you found out about her blog? Did she share the link with you, or did you have to find it another way?

 

My Mormon neighbor told me about it this morning. I'm sorry I keep calling her my "Mormon" neighbor - it just seems somewhat important to point out that even she found the behaviour wrong (missionaries they are and all).

[chiguirre]

How can a person share their faith, if they believe they must, without coming across as arrogant or invasive?

 

Giving up so much of what we hold dear--financial security, normalcy, furniture, *stuff*--could be understood as an act of humility & love.

 

I don't think you can verbally share your faith unless directly asked without appearing arrogant or invasive. You can walk the walk, but you can't talk the talk until someone requests it. I have several friends and even a family member who are members of Opus Dei (very, very religious Catholics) and we get along fine. They do not feel the need to share their faith and I don't feel the need to share mine most of the time. When we do talk about it, they don't assume that I would want to become a Christian and I don't assume that they will see the light and become atheists. We just believe and let believe.

 

Coming from the perspective of my 10 year stint in Venezuela, I'm not that impressed with giving up your security and normalcy. Most people in the world don't have financial security or even much physical security. They get on with their lives as best they can. We're lucky to have so much more in the US, but even here, security is just a few paychecks or an expensive medical bill from disintegrating for most people. It's just part of life that you have to deal with as best you can.

 

Just my 2 cents, take them for what they're worth...

[Joanne]

didn't mean to imply in the post you're referring to that witnessing to a child behind his parents' backs is ok. I just know that any kind of missionary work, on its surface, *can* look completely arrogant. That fact really bothers me, since I am a Christian. How can a person share their faith, if they believe they must, without coming across as arrogant or invasive?

 

Do you really want to know? I am an extreme introvert *and* cradle Presbyterian. Not to mention Norwegian. Private stoicism doesn't begin to describe it. ;) Presbyterians are not known for the evangelizing aspect of Christianity - we'd rather build you a house. ;)

 

People sharing, unsolicited, their faith with me feels like a violation. I feel so strongly about it that it IS a violation. I believe spirituality and spiritual choices to be so primary, so foundational, so important that I protect mine (and hopefully yours) with a near obsessive zeal.

 

I am a Christian (by my and I believe God's standards) but I am NOT comfortable with evagelical, unsolicited sharing and my gut tells me that was not God's intention, either. I am fiercely protective of spiritual choices I even left an AA meeting because a leader was using the Bible. (AA is not supposed to endorse any particular religion and the use of the Bible by the leader of the meeting violated known AA principles. But so does saying the Lord's Prayer after meetings).

 

Editing to add a story. I once got a calendar from a popular, Christian, homeschooling curriculum company. It was *gorgeous* and featured a variety of cultures. Each description talked about the culture's rituals, daily life and spirituality. And *then* each time, I was asked to pray for their Christian salvation. I threw the calendar out.

 

 

If you'd like to know about my faith, ask. I'll share more than you want to know. If you want to know why I'd go to the ends of the earth to help recovering (female) addicts/alcoholics, I'll tell you.

 

But please don't talk to me or my kids about *your* faith when I've shown no interest or asked any related questions.

 

PS: I should add that I tend towards a "my Father's House has many rooms" and a more, um, pluralistic understanding of how God may work in the lives and afterlife of individuals. That certainly helps me feel comfortable letting people have their faith without imposing mine.

Edited March 13, 2009 by Joanne

[Night Elf]

I completely agree with Aubrey. I've been thinking about this for about ten minutes.

 

I'm a strong, passionate Christian. And I'm kind of grid locked about this situation. On one hand, I understand your side. I would not want my kid to be in that situation. On the other hand, as a Christian, the Bible tells me to share the word of Christ. So it is a catch 22. The blogging about it is sort of strange....but maybe she just likes to write. I dont know.

 

Ok, so you believe that Jesus Himself would do this? He'd take a small child away from the parents to talk to privately? And not all the kids in the family, just this one child? I understand wanting to share the Word of God, even though I'm not a Christian, but I think the way she's choosing to do it is very creepy, just like a sexual predator. And I said exactly that on her blog. You never know, she may feel that God has told her to hide the child and raise her in the Christian faith. It's not unheard of for zealots to feel they truly have so much power and influence. It's downright frightening! The woman should drop to her knees and beg forgiveness from the OP and God. Mercy me!

[mommaduck]

Well, I can't tell you all how much your posts have meant to me. I missed all the snark so I have no idea what happened over the deleted posts. I've been mulling all day. I've been talking to my Mormon neighbor (4 kids, NEVER pushes her views on us) and she TOTALLY got my anger and "victimization" when I asked her how she'd feel if I pushed our non-believing views on her kids, day after day, after day after day. Her youngest is 9 and a very strong personality but she started to "get" it then.

 

What I really wanted my daughter to understand is that she did NOTHING wrong, that this woman proved herself to be an unsafe adult and how she proved herself to be unsafe and why this woman was unsafe and what an adult who was safe would have done. I also verified many of the details of the blog - just to make sure the events did happen - without leading questions. Well, mostly without asking leading questions. That's hard. :) My daughter did feel defensive and bad at first but eventually came around to talking and throughout the evening (I tried talking to her while we were doing activities; laundry and dinner) she would come up to me with other things she had identified as crossing boundary lines.

 

So, I really have to look at this as a learning experience and be thankful that this was "just" a brainwash attempt and not a sexual molestation. Because the signals and signs and methods are exactly the same to me. Someone crosses your boundaries and doesn't respect them and tries to use their position of power to get you to do what they want.

 

My 12yo is LIVID and wants to confront the woman. I will definitely confront her but need to get to a calm place where she can hear that I'm pissed because she did not respect my daughter's boundaries - NOT that she believes in God.

 

I honestly don't care what my kids believe and we've had many conversations about that. We're even doing a World Religion study this year. :)

 

My daughter has been giving me signals for a while. Scared at night, bad dreams and acting "weird" at times. I am trying not to beat myself up for allowing this to happen but instead use this as a learning experience for the both of us.

 

We'll allow the girls to come over here but my daughter is very much in agreement that she does not even WANT to go over to this woman's place without her brother.

 

Again, thanks everyone for your opinions, even the evangelicals - it helps me to know she is coming from a place of love and while I do understand that, she cannot be allowed to railroad my child to achieve her goals.

I'm glad you were able to open a door to talk with your child. That is prime! And I agree with coming to a calm place.

 

:grouphug:

[Aubrey]

I've been talking to my Mormon neighbor, my 12yo and my daughter all evening. Among other things, the reason this woman's actions are so repugnant to me is that she proved herself to be an unsafe adult. And this is what I told my child. When my daughter plugged her ears because she was DONE with the sermons, the woman continued to push her views. Over and over, my daughter gave a boundary and this woman ignored that boundary and pushed her views on my daughter until my daughter relented and gave in. This was over the course of weeks. I'm not sure if you got that Aubrey (hope I spelled that correctly). It wasn't a one-time thing.

 

She targeted my daughter, the youngest and most impressionable and kept at her and at her and at her until she finally relented and "believed in God'. In my view, that makes her equal to a sexual predator without the molestion. She just mind-**cked her.

 

My pov is a weird kind of a mix. A few yrs ago, I decided to walk away from Christianity. For the 2 yrs that I was a "not-Christian" (for lack of a better term, because I didn't have a word for what I was), I was assailed by people trying to save me. I knew the Bible better than most of them did, & it was generally offensive. Because of that experience, I try to be much more careful w/ people when I share my faith now. Ultimately, what led me back to the Lord was *not* any of the cute or ****ing things people said to me. If it was anything beyond the Lord, it was dh simply loving me w/out trying to argue about my faith. In reverse, I'm pretty sure I couldn't have loved him so well.

 

All of that is to say, I think that you are justified to feel the way you do, but before my time away from the faith, it probably wouldn't have occurred to me that someone would react this way. Unlike a sexual predator who is primarily self-serving & will continue to hurt people, this lady *may* be genuinely sorry when she realizes how she has hurt you.

 

How is your daughter doing? I hope...I don't even know what. Peace. Everything else I can think of isn't quite right. I am really sorry for how you have been treated.

[mommaduck]

Do you really want to know? I am an extreme introvert *and* cradle Presbyterian. Not to mention Norwegian. Private stoicism doesn't begin to describe it. ;) Presbyterians are not known for the evangelizing aspect of Christianity - we'd rather build you a house. ;)

 

 

:lol: too true! However, we're not the frozen chosen either...as least not in debates amoungst ourselves. We can put some Baptist committee meetings to shame ;)

[sassenach]

I've been talking to my Mormon neighbor, my 12yo and my daughter all evening. Among other things, the reason this woman's actions are so repugnant to me is that she proved herself to be an unsafe adult. And this is what I told my child. When my daughter plugged her ears because she was DONE with the sermons, the woman continued to push her views. Over and over, my daughter gave a boundary and this woman ignored that boundary and pushed her views on my daughter until my daughter relented and gave in. This was over the course of weeks. I'm not sure if you got that Aubrey (hope I spelled that correctly). It wasn't a one-time thing.

 

She targeted my daughter, the youngest and most impressionable and kept at her and at her and at her until she finally relented and "believed in God'. In my view, that makes her equal to a sexual predator without the molestion. She just mind-**cked her.

 

I hadn't really thought through this part before. How your dd put up boundaries and she pushed through them. Not that you need me to tell you, but you are absolutely right, she is not safe. Before I was thinking that people were over reacting because I don't think she's do anything to physically harm your child. But reading this post makes it clear to me that the danger is in the way she is pushing past your dd's boundaries and violating her mentally.

[Jenny in Atl]

Ok, so you believe that Jesus Himself would do this? He'd take a small child away from the parents to talk to privately? And not all the kids in the family, just this one child? I understand wanting to share the Word of God, even though I'm not a Christian, but I think the way she's choosing to do it is very creepy, just like a sexual predator. And I said exactly that on her blog. You never know, she may feel that God has told her to hide the child and raise her in the Christian faith. It's not unheard of for zealots to feel they truly have so much power and influence. It's downright frightening! The woman should drop to her knees and beg forgiveness from the OP and God. Mercy me!

 

Yes, if the faith of this woman was another, I think some who don't see this as totally creepy would be posting very different replies. I'm glad to see most do see her actions as not cool at all.

[elegantlion]

My daughter has been giving me signals for a while. Scared at night, bad dreams and acting "weird" at times. I am trying not to beat myself up for allowing this to happen but instead use this as a learning experience for the both of us.

 

 

That was one of the concerns when I read this initially. Thoughts of heaven may be a thing of joy for a christian adult, but for a young child just learning about life and death it should be approached cautiously and with concern to their sensitivities. Also with a parent in close range to calm fears and talk through concerns.

[Marylou]

"I will definitely confront her but need to get to a calm place where she can hear that I'm pissed because she did not respect my daughter's boundaries - NOT that she believes in God.

 

We'll allow the girls to come over here but my daughter is very much in agreement that she does not even WANT to go over to this woman's place without her brother."

 

 

 

Because you posted her blog here she has heard from others first--probably not the way you wanted it to go down.

[sleepy]

I just know that any kind of missionary work, on its surface, *can* look completely arrogant. That fact really bothers me, since I am a Christian. How can a person share their faith, if they believe they must, without coming across as arrogant or invasive?

 

 

Well, if it looks like a duck, it's probably a duck. And if something comes across as arrogant, it's probably arrogant.

 

Let's say you want to share a piece of cake with someone. You ask them if they would like a piece of cake. If they say yes, give them a piece of cake. If they say no, leave it at that.

 

If you say, "Do you want a piece of cake? Oh, you don't? Why not? It's good for you. You'll really like it. I made it myself, and everyone in my family loves it. Here take some. Aw, come on, have some cake. Do you want some cake now? Just think about it for a minute, and I'm sure you'll change your mind. There, now that you've thought about it, surely you want some cake, don't you? No? Well, just try a bite." That's not sharing. That's arrogant and invasive.

[Snickerdoodle]

If you say, "Do you want a piece of cake? Oh, you don't? Why not? It's good for you. You'll really like it. I made it myself, and everyone in my family loves it. Here take some. Aw, come on, have some cake. Do you want some cake now? Just think about it for a minute, and I'm sure you'll change your mind. There, now that you've thought about it, surely you want some cake, don't you? No? Well, just try a bite." That's not sharing. That's arrogant and invasive.

 

I knew someone who did that with me with regard to food. Yuck.

[Stacia]

My daughter has been giving me signals for a while. Scared at night, bad dreams and acting "weird" at times.

 

I haven't read all the responses yet, but I agree w/ the ones that say this woman went waaaaay over the line w/ your child.

 

And, if your dd's behavior (referenced in quote) is related to all this, I'd definitely keep my dd far, far away from this woman forevermore. These behaviors may indicate that your dd did indeed feel 'preyed' upon & unsafe in that environment of the other person's house. Not a good scenario.

 

:grouphug:

[Aubrey]

Well, if it looks like a duck, it's probably a duck. And if something comes across as arrogant, it's probably arrogant.

 

Let's say you want to share a piece of cake with someone. You ask them if they would like a piece of cake. If they say yes, give them a piece of cake. If they say no, leave it at that.

 

If you say, "Do you want a piece of cake? Oh, you don't? Why not? It's good for you. You'll really like it. I made it myself, and everyone in my family loves it. Here take some. Aw, come on, have some cake. Do you want some cake now? Just think about it for a minute, and I'm sure you'll change your mind. There, now that you've thought about it, surely you want some cake, don't you? No? Well, just try a bite." That's not sharing. That's arrogant and invasive.

 

I guess I'm afraid that even *asking* would come across as arrogant, lol.

 

I like the cake analogy. A friend of mine gave dd1 some cake a few mos ago when she was, imo, too young for cake. She did it w/out asking. I was mad, & she was a good friend. I can only imagine if it had been a stranger w/ something more important than cake!

 

You all have been so patient listening to me work this out. Reading now that OP's dd has been having nightmares, etc. makes me sick. That's awful. Telling an atheist's child, "God made everything," is enough of a boundary-violation. Telling her she &/or her family are going to hell is cruel.

[KarenNC]

Does that make sense? Not that the actions that she then carried out were right, just that her intentions may have been kinder than they seemed.

 

As I said, her intentions were indeed, in her mind, kind at least in part (I agree that it does smack of self-aggrandizement). I don't find fault with her (stated) intentions. I find fault with her choice of actions regarding those intentions. I can intend to save you from being stung by a bee. I can chose to use my hand to swat it away, to warn you about it or to hit you over the head with the shovel in my hand. It makes a difference.

 

I absolutely understand the Great Commission. Basically, what I as a non-Christian ask is that those who are trying to bear witness to their faith ask themselves, "Is *this* the manner in which Jesus approached His ministry?" If not, then that person needs to examine both their tactics and their true motivations in pursuing them.

 

I truly don't see Jesus using subterfuge and covert harassment of small children.

 

Bottom line: the end does not justify the means.

[jamnkats]

I guess I'm afraid that even *asking* would come across as arrogant, lol.

 

I like the cake analogy. A friend of mine gave dd1 some cake a few mos ago when she was, imo, too young for cake. She did it w/out asking. I was mad, & she was a good friend. I can only imagine if it had been a stranger w/ something more important than cake!

 

You all have been so patient listening to me work this out. Reading now that OP's dd has been having nightmares, etc. makes me sick. That's awful. Telling an atheist's child, "God made everything," is enough of a boundary-violation. Telling her she &/or her family are going to hell is cruel.

 

Thank you for being patient also Aubrey. Reading a lot of the responses has been helpful for me to try and understand her zeal and POV but I cannot allow her to use my daughter for her own means. My daughter told me a little while ago that she felt like a "tester". I think she means "used" but I didn't want to put words in her mouth. It is not a pleasant sensation though.

 

Also, I found out the mom has been working on my daughter since last November. I don't know if she's said anything about hell. I'm not so upset about the prothelitizing - I mean I understand that she needs to spread her word. It is the targeting and ignoring my daughter's expressed, clear boundaries (plugging her ears!) to convince her that she was wrong and the mom was right about a belief system.

[Hillary in KS]

I completely understand the OP's being upset about her daughter.

 

But doesn't comparing unwanted conversations about God with rape and molestation trivialize *actual* rape and molestation?

[jamnkats]

I completely understand the OP's being upset about her daughter.

 

But doesn't comparing unwanted conversations about God with rape and molestation trivialize *actual* rape and molestation?

 

Well, I've been raped and I'm the OP and it was MY daughter and no, I don't think so. :) But I'm not the most objective apple in the bunch.

[Joanne]

But doesn't comparing unwanted conversations about God with rape and molestation trivialize *actual* rape and molestation?

__________________

 

Well, I wouldn't call evangelical conversations a simple unwanted conversation. Essentially, it's an attack of spirituality. I understand the violation verbage.

 

I also understand that the ugly reality of rape and molestation should never be trivialized.

[newlifemom]

I completely understand the OP's being upset about her daughter.

 

But doesn't comparing unwanted conversations about God with rape and molestation trivialize *actual* rape and molestation?

 

 

I don't think so. I have heard of robbery victums feeling 'violated'. I think that spiritually that can be the case as well. I am a Christian and yet am careful about how I approach things with my own dc because I don't want to scare them into becoming a Christian. It would sound as if the OP's dd was at the least 'violated' in that she has had some reactions physical and mental that would suggest as much.

[Marylou]

Dear Kathy,

 

I agree your daughter's privacy was violated by this woman. I also think you could have asked for wisdom about this situation without posting this woman's blog. Perhaps you could have cut and pasted the parts you wanted us to read and give comment? As you know, she is now receiving criticism that only you (as the girl's mother) have an obligation to give. I truly hope that you and the missionary can work things out.

Edited March 13, 2009 by dmmosher

[Hillary in KS]

Well, I've been raped and I'm the OP and it was MY daughter and no, I don't think so. :) But I'm not the most objective apple in the bunch.

 

LOL! OK, so I guess you'd be able to equate the two. :001_smile:

 

I've been neither raped nor molested, but as an observer it would seem that you'll be able to discuss and work through the conversations your dd had with the neighbor MUCH faster than one would deal with the trauma of rape.

[Night Elf]

I completely understand the OP's being upset about her daughter.

 

But doesn't comparing unwanted conversations about God with rape and molestation trivialize *actual* rape and molestation?

 

No. As a person who has experience in that area, though I do not want to talk about it, I feel the acts are the same. It's a reaching in, WAY in to the inner being of the person and taking something away that can never, never be forgotten or healed. You just learn to cope with it. This woman has touched this child's heart and mind in a way that this child will never forget. She may have gone on to learn about God and Christianity when she was older and more able to truly comprehend it in a positive way. Instead, she'll always see Christianity as something that is pushed onto another person regardless of feelings and respect.

 

It reminds me of a lady I met in church. Her faith is based on fear. She said she only had two choices, to believe or not believe. If she believed and learned after death that it wasn't truth then there is no harm done. However, if she didn't believe now and discovered after death that it was truth, she'd be sacrificing her soul forever. I just really don't see that as real faith.

[Nicole M]

I completely understand the OP's being upset about her daughter.

 

But doesn't comparing unwanted conversations about God with rape and molestation trivialize *actual* rape and molestation?

 

No. I have also been physically assaulted and so when I make that comparison, I do not in any way make it casually. I know of what I speak.

[katilac]

After reading the lady's blog a little more...she's put a lot on the line for what she believes. They've sold &/or given away almost everything they own in order to tell people about Jesus. I respect that kind of courage in any faith.

 

Imagine--apart from this particular situation, which I still think was poor judgment--what you would be willing to risk *everything* for. For most of us--for me--the answer is not much.

 

If she has given up almost everything in order to tell people what she believes, that act in itself is an expression of deep love & respect for the people she ends up telling. The message has certainly been muddled. But maybe some of the anger can be quelled by a bigger look at who she is. If she realizes that she has (potentially) cost herself a relationship w/ your family & her daughter a relationship w/ yours, I imagine she will feel deep regret.

 

The idea behind the Great Commission, besides telling others about Jesus, was really revolutionary for its time: look at people around the world, from different classes & cultures, & see children of God, brothers in Christ, equals.

 

I hope things get worked out.

 

 

I don't think that what other people are willing to give up for their beliefs is relevant to the issue here. You, or this lady, or whomever, can believe as deeply as you wish (or not believe, as the case may be). What one cannot do is leapfrog over the big gray area of 'living your belief' and into the deep black no-man's land of 'I'll raise my own kids, thank you very much.'

 

Christopher Hitchens is a well-known atheist who believes that, not only are religious beliefs untrue, they are harmful to those who believe. He gets death threats all the time, but continues to write and speak on the subject. Clearly, he truly believes this and has the courage to back it up.

 

Would you consider him speaking privately and persuasivly to young children about what a great thing atheism is to be the same expression of deep love and respect? If not, what is the difference?

[runninmommy]

I didn't mean to imply in the post you're referring to that witnessing to a child behind his parents' backs is ok. I just know that any kind of missionary work, on its surface, *can* look completely arrogant. That fact really bothers me, since I am a Christian. How can a person share their faith, if they believe they must, without coming across as arrogant or invasive?

 

Giving up so much of what we hold dear--financial security, normalcy, furniture, *stuff*--could be understood as an act of humility & love. I, for one, would much rather keep my trap shut & sit in a cozy chair reading a good book, so when *anyone* gives up their own comfort to such a degree for *any* cause, I think that deserves my respect. Does that make sense? Not that the actions that she then carried out were right, just that her intentions may have been kinder than they seemed.

 

Aubrey, your thoughts are always so tactful and sweet. I wish we still had rep..:grouphug:

[runninmommy]

I am a Christian (by my and I believe God's standards) but I am NOT comfortable with evagelical, unsolicited sharing and my gut tells me that was not God's intention, either. I am fiercely protective of spiritual choices I even left an AA meeting because a leader was using the Bible. (AA is not supposed to endorse any particular religion and the use of the Bible by the leader of the meeting violated known AA principles. But so does saying the Lord's Prayer after meetings).

 

 

:confused::confused:

 

Please enlighten me on your above comment.

[runninmommy]

No. As a person who has experience in that area, though I do not want to talk about it, I feel the acts are the same. It's a reaching in, WAY in to the inner being of the person and taking something away that can never, never be forgotten or healed. You just learn to cope with it. This woman has touched this child's heart and mind in a way that this child will never forget. She may have gone on to learn about God and Christianity when she was older and more able to truly comprehend it in a positive way. Instead, she'll always see Christianity as something that is pushed onto another person regardless of feelings and respect.

 

It reminds me of a lady I met in church. Her faith is based on fear. She said she only had two choices, to believe or not believe. If she believed and learned after death that it wasn't truth then there is no harm done. However, if she didn't believe now and discovered after death that it was truth, she'd be sacrificing her soul forever. I just really don't see that as real faith.

 

Completely off topic but your avatar really freaks me out. Really. (I'm not being rude, promise) I am just wondering the origin?

[Night Elf]

Completely off topic but your avatar really freaks me out. Really. (I'm not being rude, promise) I am just wondering the origin?

 

It's the picture of a night elf from world of warcraft. It's my favorite character on the game.

 

BTW, I'm surprised you find it freaky. I think it's absolutely beautiful and wish I had a larger picture to hang in my home. :)

Edited March 13, 2009 by Night Elf
adding a BTW

[sleepy]

Aubrey, your thoughts are always so tactful and sweet. I wish we still had rep..:grouphug:

 

I agree. You're a sweetheart, Aubrey. :grouphug:

[jamnkats]

Dear Kathy,

 

I agree your daughter's privacy was violated by this woman. I also think you could have asked for wisdom about this situation without posting this woman's blog. Perhaps you could have cut and paste the parts you wanted us to read and give comment? As you know, she is now receiving criticism that only you (as the girl's mother) have an obligation to give. I truly hope that you and the missionary can work things out.

 

I am not responsible for what others may or may not do on her blog. I honestly never imagined anyone would post there when I made the OP. And I have to say I have no sympathy for her criticism when she publically blogged about converting my daughter.

[runninmommy]

It's the picture of a night elf from world of warcraft. It's my favorite character on the game.

 

BTW, I'm surprised you find it freaky. I think it's absolutely beautiful and wish I had a larger picture to hang in my home. :)

 

Thanks! I have been wondering for a while. :) Well, the whole thing looks like a demon *to me* but I have a very active imagination.

It looks cool, just kind of um...foreboding.

[Stacy in NJ]

I think you should be talking to her personally. Let her know you've read the blog and that you want to talk about it.

 

She seems to be genuinely fond of your child. But since you are so uncomfortable with the situation you need to decide what you should do about it.

 

 

Talk about what you've read on the blog and what it is you are not comfortable with.

 

Let her know what conversations you do not approve of and find out if she is willing to refrain from having them with your child. If you do not trust her with your child you need to decide what to do about it.

 

 

While this lady definately crossed the line, I think by posting a link to her blog and discussing this here prior to speaking to her, you've handled this really poorly.

 

Walk down to your neighbors house and have a conversation with a living person. Tell her your feelings instead of posting about them here.