Teens, Homosexuality and Christian 'witnessing'

[Guest Katia]

I really need to discuss this and need input, but I've been struggling with what to say and how to word this so as to not cause board problems.

 

Please, I do not need or want a discussion of the right or wrong of homosexuality, either in practice or as it relates to Scripture. That is not the issue here.

 

Ok. Here is the deal: My dd is 16yo. There is one other 16yo girl at our church who is also homeschooled. She is as different as night and day from our dd, but they get along fairly well. She lives in a different town (45 miles from us) and has different friends than dd.

 

My dh is the pastor at our church as well as the Sunday School teacher for the youth class. Last week this girl came to dh with her mom and they asked if he had any book suggestions because two of her girl friends had admitted to her that they feel they are bi-sexual and this gal wants to have a Bible study with them to show them that the Bible says it's wrong and to teach them what it 'does' say.

 

This was discussed in the adult Sunday School and now everyone in the church knows that these girls are bi-sexual and they DO come with this gal to visit every now and again. Arrgh! I can't even explain to you all the frustration I feel over this.

 

If these girls had any idea that everyone in this small church now knows their private sexual orientation......they would never, ever, ever step foot into our church (and I suspect any other church) again. And, if they knew they were actively being targeted as a 'project' by their friend with church support.......AAARRRGGG! That is even worse.

 

I was just glad I was not involved in any of this, and then..........this girl asks my dd to come over when she has this Bible Study with these girls so dd could lend her support.

 

Personally, I just can not see any way of her bringing this up to those girls that can possibly end with a positive outcome. I do not want my dd involved and dd does not want to be involved. She feels that if we start to target people with sins such as sexual orientation that we should have a Bible study with people like me that are overweight and obviously indulging in the sin of gluttony. Boy wouldn't THAT go over well!

 

Then again, as the pastor's wife and dd, we are expected to help support the ministries of others in the church. How do we gracefully get out of this without hurting feelings? We don't want to squash the girl's enthusiasm for wanting to have a Bible study with her friends, but......surely there is a better way for her to go about this?

 

I am just so stunned and frustrated that I'm not thinking clearly. The Hive Mind input is just what I need to help put me back on path.

 

And I sincerely want input from those that are not Christian on this board. I must say that I have learned more from you non-Christian gals here about loving and caring for others than I have in 49 years of attending church.

 

Hesitantly pushing the "submit" button.......

[Jean in Newcastle]

I think the issue simply is whether your daughter will be involved in this Bible study. You've already said that you and your dd don't want to be involved. So all she needs to say is "I'm sorry. This is not something I want to participate in." Period. If she needs a reason she can simply say, "My mom doesn't think this is a good thing for me."

 

As to what the church is teaching or encouraging - really the issue there is whether you agree with how they interpret the applicable Scripture. If you don't, then you need to find another church. I can't get into my opinion of how they interpret the Scripture without getting into the very things you don't want to discuss (and I agree that would make this hive into a hornet's nest instead)! I missed that you are the pastor's wife. Your husband as the pastor should decide if this something that the church as a whole should support. You should not have to go to or participate in every ministry in the church - even if it is for your dd's age group.

Edited January 28, 2009 by Jean in Newcastle

[Tracey in TX]

(((Hugs)))

This is a genuine dilemma. I have no recommendations as this is a sticky situation. Just sending support and prayers that a comfortable and appropriate solution which neither targets the teens nor places the others in an un-Christian role of judgement.

 

Best wishes,

 

ETA: Bi-sexuality is "in" (for lack of a better term). Sexual experimentation, the 'shock factor' to be different or more daring than peers. Rather than targeting the bi/homo-sexuality, maybe help DDs and her friend help the other girl/s discover within themselves why they are considering (or participating) in this lifestyle choice. It would be sad should they do this for a dare. Realize this isn't your question, but a delayed thought. Either way, you're an amazing mom to address such a sensitive topic and help DD grow through this.

Edited January 28, 2009 by Tracey in TX

[MeanestMomInMidwest]

Katia - You are brave to address this issue here.

Also, what an opportunity to speak with your daughter about something that is perhaps not often spoken about. I'm not speaking of homosexuality here, I'm speaking of whether or not it is acceptable for a person of faith to "ambush" someone, which is what it seems like you are describing.

Insert any other issue that your faith deems sinful for the words "bisexual" and "homosexual" and re-read your post to decide if the actions are appropriate.

You are in a unique position, being pastor's wife. All eyes are on you, expecting you to do the right thing, and many will take their cues from you. I do not envy you this position. Especially if "what is right" is not the same as "what is popular." More good lessons for your dd.

Good luck. Let us know what you decide.

[Alice]

I would tell your dd to say she is not interested. If pushed she can say that she thinks it is unChristian to have a Bible Study "targeting" particular people.

 

And I agree that as the pastor, I think your dh should have a say as to whether or not this is a ministry that would be appropriate for your church. For me, I would not be supportive of this in my church and would not be happy with chuch leadership that supported it.

[Carol in Cal.]

Having said that, I can see that as the pastor's family you're not in a position to easily decide what to do at all.

 

From that perspective, I would start with your church's teaching. What is it? If it's not that h** is against Scripture, than DH should set the family straight. If it IS that the practice of h** is gainst Scripture, than the question is where and when this should come up.

 

And one wrong answer would be in a Bible study that secretly targets two of the participants, both of them minor children with perhaps unclear orientations anyway. I am shocked that this was seriously discussed with names included in the adult Bible study at the church. That should never happen.

 

From the perspective of spreading the Gospel, evangelistic ministry should focus on Christ and who He is. It starts with the cool things that God has done. It goes out from there in various directions topically, but starting with trying to convince someone that something is or is not sinful is not a reasonable thing to do. What do they care whether Christianity considers this sinful or not if they are not even Christian at this point? And furthermore, where is the love? Where is the acknowledgement that ALL have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God? It could appear quite hypocritical to focus on one sin and ignore others. The parable of the speck and log comes to mind.

 

Clearly your DD's friend is really troubled about her friends, and I would start with that rather that by jumping in to this Bible study idea. I would start with a consideration of what would and would not really help her friends and herself to know Christ better.

[Danestress]

First, whether your daughter should be involved in this bible study. Obviously you don't think so, so I agree with Jean. Just say no.

 

Secondly, your DH might want to look into how this came to be discussed in an adult Sunday School and might need to talk to the leaders, or perhaps the whole group, about how we honor each other's privacy. There is a very fine line between "hey can you pray for this?" and gossip. There is simply no reason why that group had to discuss that these girls were "feeling" bi. Even if you are one to believe that every member of a church needs to be informed of everyone else's sin (which I personally think it scary) these girls haven't acted on their feelings. THey are feeling bi. They don't need to be disciplined, but someone surely does!

 

Lots and lots of girls go through a stage where they wonder if they are bisexual. I think part of it is that if you are a teenaged girl, other girls are beautiful, fun, interesting, active minded, funny and lovely. And boys your age are irritable, pimply, into video games and sports, smelly and boring. I am a Mom of all boys and I adore boys. At 40, I see teenaged boys as wonderfully charming in their own way. But I remember an age when I was completely appalled by boys my age, and wondered what was wrong with me that I saw nothing attractive about them. I didn't think I was bi-sexual, but I did think I needed to date 28 year olds. So I guess I wouldn't jump to the conclusion that these girls are really bi-sexual, but I would want to welcome, love, encourage and disciple them. I wouldn't think another 16 year old is necessarily the one for the job, though.

[Stacia]

Well, I would think your dd could bow out by saying that her presence would probably make it more uncomfortable on the 2 other gals -- who don't even know that this session is brewing, kwim? I think it would be awkward enough w/ the 2 gals & the teen from your church to have this discussion & then having another 'person' there during this discussion might make it seem even more like an adversarial set-up, kwim? Two people already 'prepped' to discuss things (meaning the other teen has divulged this info to your dd when perhaps the other gals did not want this spread around) would make it pretty obvious that the girl has been discussing the others' private thoughts. So, I guess I would have your dd bow out on the grounds that she shouldn't have been told this info unless those teens chose to tell her themselves.

 

Perhaps she could counsel the teen who wants to talks to the girls, rather than participating in an actual 'discussion' w/ all of them.

 

Hmmm. I feel like I'm not saying what I mean very clearly. Just feel like I'm rambling.

[Tutor]

This was discussed in the adult Sunday School

 

How did this happen? Why was it discussed in the adult Sunday School class? I'd be steamed if things I brought to my pastor in confidence were brought publicly before the Adult Sunday School class. Please tell me I'm missing something.

 

I do not want my dd involved and dd does not want to be involved.

 

I think that this is your solution right there. I know that a lot of pressure is placed on pastors' families, but really your job is to raise your own dd, and it sounds like you have made a decision. I'd just stick with that.

 

She feels that if we start to target people with sins such as sexual orientation that we should have a Bible study with people like me that are overweight and obviously indulging in the sin of gluttony. Boy wouldn't THAT go over well!

 

I think that you have raised a very wise dd. She is right, if one of the jobs of the church is to confront sin, then it must confront sin in all its forms. Targeting sins that are "socially acceptable" to target is just plain wrong and dishonest... and rather wimpy, IMNSHO. (Our church falls on the "bash socially acceptable sins" bandwagon, and it drives me batty.)

[Harriet Vane]

What a hard situation! I applaud you for your sensitivity to these two girls. All too often the church is intrusive, abrasive, and patronizing without meaning to be so--doing damage control provides an opportunity to coach people in a better way to handle this sort of situation.

 

For your daughter: She can tell her friends that she is not going to participate but will gladly pray for the study. She can say with honesty that the bisexual girls have opened up to their friend--that is the context that they chose, and that will be most comfortable for them.

 

For you: Can you talk openly to the girl who wants to help her bisexual friends about the value of privacy? Help her understand that it is good to seek mature advice, but not so good to involve the whole community in someone else's secrets. A kind conversation can go a long way towards coaching this girls towards handling another person's confidences appropriately.

 

For your dh: I think the very best thing to do is address this head-on, but with gentleness. Meet with the adult Sunday School class and caution them about how these conversations are to be handled. Be direct, but be kind. These people need a reminder, and some specific coaching. Don't let this drift--tell the class specifically what to do in a situation like this (no names mentioned, advocate that the girl talk to one or two trusted adults rather than the entire class, etc.).

 

It sounds like this has taken on a life of its own, but some specific, hands-on coaching could diffuse the whole thing and put it on a better track.

[Aggie]

Personally, I wouldn't feel comfortable with any teen leading a Bible study.

[Joanne]

Katia,

 

I have no specific feedback on the issues.

 

I do, however, want to comment on the thoughtfulness and tact in posting an obviously provocative post. The perspective you hold and the way in which you are responding to his are impressive.

 

My prayers are being said for all the young people involved; those wondering about themselves sexually and those watching how adults respond to it in the Christian community.

[lionfamily1999]

Perhaps a sermon on gossip is in order?

 

I can't think of anything else to add. Sorry.

[Erica in PA]

You said that your husband is the pastor of the church...and the teacher of the Sunday School class. How is he handling the situation? How did he advise the mother when she came to him about the Bible study? Did he tell them that was a good idea? What does he think about them having a Bible study with these girls, and about your dd participating?

[Spy Car]

I would tell your dd to say she is not interested. If pushed she can say that she thinks it is unChristian to have a Bible Study "targeting" particular people.

 

And I agree that as the pastor, I think your dh should have a say as to whether or not this is a ministry that would be appropriate for your church. For me, I would not be supportive of this in my church and would not be happy with chuch leadership that supported it.

 

:iagree: I'm not of the faith (or a woman for that matter :tongue_smilie:) but this seems like a great "teachable" moment for both your daughter and (if your pastor/husband dares) for the congregation as a whole.

 

We all have moral failings, and without endorsing bi-sexuality/homosexuality, I think a pastor could take a strong position that judging others and "targeting" individuals is (arguably) unChristian.

 

I'd sure appreciate the courage of any person of God who made that case, but I'm sure some would not.

 

Best wishes,

Bill

[LaxMom]

I am inclined to agree with Bill (imagine that).

 

I would also add that, as an adult woman, I would be mortified to find that, having confided a personal struggle to a friend, I had become the Bible study project of a church body to which I did not belong. And, frankly, the context in which this whole thing came about would make me completely closed to listening to them, no matter what their point of view or how honorable the intention.

 

That's just my two cents.

[Sharon in SC]

You said that your husband is the pastor of the church...and the teacher of the Sunday School class. How is he handling the situation? How did he advise the mother when she came to him about the Bible study? Did he tell them that was a good idea? What does he think about them having a Bible study with these girls, and about your dd participating?

 

Just to clarify - the OP's dh is teacher for the youth Sunday School class (not the adult class). Not sure how the adult SS class got involved. :glare:

[Catherine]

I have a nephew who has identified himself as gay. He's been preached to, and then rejected, by our fundamentalist family members. I know this has been painful for him. I don't think that is changed anything either, except that he has wholeheartedly rejected his childhood faith. He is living with us now, not only because of that, but it was a factor.

 

I just can't see how telling someone that what they consider to be a basic part of their identity is Biblically wrong. Is there some concern that they don't already know that? I also agree that teen sexuality can be a moving target and the less said about it, the better IMO. : )

 

I would also strongly agree that you are in a unique position to lead the opinions of others. I think that reaching out to someone in love and acceptance, regardless of their supposed sexual orientation, can be incredibly powerful. I see the effects, personally, every day.

[AnnetteB]

Perhaps a sermon on gossip is in order?

 

I can't think of anything else to add. Sorry.

:iagree:

[Erica in PA]

Just to clarify - the OP's dh is teacher for the youth Sunday School class (not the adult class). Not sure how the adult SS class got involved. :glare:

 

Oh yes, I see that now. I would still like to know how what her husband's position on of this is, since he is the pastor and talked with this woman and her daughter about the Bible study.

[kalanamak]

 

I was just glad I was not involved in any of this, and then..........this girl asks my dd to come over when she has this Bible Study with these girls so dd could lend her support.

 

 

Then again, as the pastor's wife and dd, we are expected to help support the ministries of others in the church. How do we gracefully get out of this without hurting feelings? We don't want to squash the girl's enthusiasm for wanting to have a Bible study with her friends, but......surely there is a better way for her to go about this?

 

 

Ugh. I would lose sleep over this. I'm sorry the "s*xual revolution" has spread so far that grown ups in a probably fairly conservative Christian church feels it appropriate to discuss this in a group!!

 

What I would do is to carefully help your daughter be able to kindly, gently say that this issue is such a big, complicated, delicate thing, she doesn't think peer bible study is a good idea....that she thinks she'd have to be much older and surer to not do any harm, spiritually speaking. Of course, she shouldn't say this if she doesn't believe this, but I think it might be close enough to what your daughter is feeling, she might be able to sincerely say this.

 

This is my guess as, possibly, the least spiritual person on the entire board.

 

BTW, I think that our society has s*xualized so much, and that girls in the their mid to late teens have really intense friendships, which are, modernly, mistaken for erotic love. I still keep in touch with some women I knew then, and we still have a lot in common. I remember feeling powerful love for them...trust, fun, support. It was a strong bond that predated my first real love for a man, which was in my 30's. Kids aren't used to grown up feelings, and make mistakes about them. At least, that is how I see it. And I think it would be a terrible mistake to tromp over these girls with size 9's. Kids have committed suicide over less.

 

There was even a term in college for this: LUG...L*sb**n Until Graduation.

Edited January 29, 2009 by kalanamak

[Garga]

Are the girls saved?

 

If yes, then God will gently guide them in what is sin or not. And, at the most, their own church or pastor should be guiding them.

 

If they're not saved, then that's the only issue here. They just need to know how deep God's love is for them and be taught about the basics of God's love and plan for each of us.

 

Dealing with one particular sin is ridiculous when you're not saved. The sin isn't the problem. The issue is whether or not you are following Jesus or not. If you're not following Him, why would you care about what is considered sin or not? Just stopping sinning doesn't do anything for you. That would be salvation through works. What "saves" you is trusting Jesus and daily asking for his guidance.

Edited January 29, 2009 by DustyLizard

[Mommy22alyns]

She feels that if we start to target people with sins such as sexual orientation that we should have a Bible study with people like me that are overweight and obviously indulging in the sin of gluttony.

 

 

 

 

I don't have any help, but this struck me as being incredibly mature and well-reasoned - it sounds like your daughter has a good head on her shoulders. :)

[Beth in OH]

Homosexuality was the topic of our sermon this past week. My church is a large empowered evangelical church, and the bottom line of the sermon was, the Bible sets forth God's perfect standard for sexuality. C.S. Lewis described it (paraphrase) as "total fidelity within marriage or total abstinance." People involved in sexual sin fall short of the standard of God. Our response should be the same toward homosexuals as it is toward any person falling short of the standard of God.

 

I'll link you to the online audio version of this sermon. It's worth listening to as you pray and choose your response to dd's situation.

 

http://www.vineyardcolumbus.org/resources/sermons/index.asp

[Guest janainaz]

I have zero "advice" on how to handle that situation, but I loved how gracefully you ended your post (and some other comments you made) and I agree whole-heartedly on your last statement that you made. I guess it just always comes down to the simple question of, "what would love do?". I guess it's simple, yet difficult to know.

 

Totally off topic, I watched Ted Haggard on Oprah today and my heart was just broken for his family and yet his story was so powerful about the love of God. Sorry, your post just caught my eye for that reason.

[PamJH]

I am inclined to agree with Bill (imagine that).

 

I would also add that, as an adult woman, I would be mortified to find that, having confided a personal struggle to a friend, I had become the Bible study project of a church body to which I did not belong. And, frankly, the context in which this whole thing came about would make me completely closed to listening to them, no matter what their point of view or how honorable the intention.

 

That's just my two cents.

 

Add my two cents to this reply.

 

You and your daughter needn't get involved simply because you both feel it's wrong. And I also agree a sermon on gossip is a good idea. I haven't read all the posts, but are these girls aware of the upcoming ambush? Have they asked for religious counsel? If I were either of those girls I'd never set foot in church after learning that a private confidence was now public knowledge.

[lovemytea]

I feel for you and your dd. This is a sticky situation. Love the sinner; hate the sin. But, not all church members are going to feel this way, unfortunately.

 

I have heard from my now 24 yo son that when he was in public school it was very common for girls to have relations with other girls. My feeling is that they have already done just about everything there is to do so what's left?

 

Though I have no advice for you, I do feel for you and all involved. Someone is bound to get hurt and what a shame. This is the time when those girls really need Christian support.

 

Good luck with this.

[astrid]

No advice, but coincidentally, I watched "Prayers for Bobby" last night, the LIfetime movie with Sigourney Weaver. It's the true story of Mary Griffith, whose teenage son committeed suicide as a result of the religious intolerance and hatred he encountered in his family and community.

 

It touched me deeply and broke my heart.

 

astrid

[Guest janainaz]

I have a nephew who has identified himself as gay. He's been preached to, and then rejected, by our fundamentalist family members. I know this has been painful for him. I don't think that is changed anything either, except that he has wholeheartedly rejected his childhood faith. He is living with us now, not only because of that, but it was a factor.

 

 

I would also strongly agree that you are in a unique position to lead the opinions of others. I think that reaching out to someone in love and acceptance, regardless of their supposed sexual orientation, can be incredibly powerful. I see the effects, personally, every day.

 

I agree.

[FO4UR]

I wouldn't let dd be a part of the "Bible study!"

 

I am a conservative Christian - so you know where I'm coming from.

 

The adult SS class needs to be rebuked for gossip. A prayer request about others without their knowledge and/or permission is gossip - plain and simple.

 

About the girls: the mentoring and Bible study really should be led by a capable adult, and by capable I mean someone with some Biblical back-bone and experience working with teens. It shouldn't just be a look at what the Bible says about homosexuality, but it should be a solid teaching of Christian doctrine.

 

I'm afraid your church will not be able to minister to these girls any longer. The gossip is CERTAIN to make it to their ears:glare:

[OnTheBrink]

Homosexuality was the topic of our sermon this past week. My church is a large empowered evangelical church, and the bottom line of the sermon was, the Bible sets forth God's perfect standard for sexuality. C.S. Lewis described it (paraphrase) as "total fidelity within marriage or total abstinance." People involved in sexual sin fall short of the standard of God. Our response should be the same toward homosexuals as it is toward any person falling short of the standard of God.

 

I'll link you to the online audio version of this sermon. It's worth listening to as you pray and choose your response to dd's situation.

 

http://www.vineyardcolumbus.org/resources/sermons/index.asp

 

:iagree:

[Lovedtodeath]

First, whether your daughter should be involved in this bible study. Obviously you don't think so, so I agree with Jean. Just say no. Lots and lots of girls go through a stage where they wonder if they are bisexual. So I guess I wouldn't jump to the conclusion that these girls are really bi-sexual, but I would want to welcome, love, encourage and disciple them.

:iagree:

 

If you're not following Him, why would you care about what is considered sin or not?

:iagree:

If the girls are already studying the Bible with their friend, then I could see it being acceptable for her to study with them about homosexuality. Otherwise, no. And she certainly should not have told anyone. I really don't see why she would need to discuss this very personal issue with others.

[Lovedtodeath]

People involved in sexual sin fall short of the standard of God. Our response should be the same toward homosexuals as it is toward any person falling short of the standard of God.

:iagree:

[Guest Katia]

A very big, heart-felt THANK YOU to all who responded. As usual, your thoughts have unstuck my own and helped me to clarify where I stand and what I believe is right.

 

I also really appreciated those posts that were just support. You can't possibly know how much better those made me feel. Validation is a wonderful thing.

 

I'm so sorry that I can't answer any questions regarding dh and his role in this as that could easily become 'bashing' and I don't want to go there. Suffice it to say that communication is not a strong point with us and he thinks I am blowing this all out of proportion.

 

But I appreciate the questions that were asked of him and the other questions posed about the girls, the church, the Sunday School class, all of it...... as that helps me as well. Questions cause one to think more deeply, evaluate and refine ones thoughts; a much needed process in this situation.

 

I'm sure after re-reading all of these posts several more times, dd and I will be able to gracefully bow out and to even possibly set this on a more positive course towards love and acceptance.

[Peek a Boo]

I wouldn't let dd be a part of the "Bible study!"

 

I am a conservative Christian - so you know where I'm coming from.

 

The adult SS class needs to be rebuked for gossip. A prayer request about others without their knowledge and/or permission is gossip - plain and simple.

 

About the girls: the mentoring and Bible study really should be led by a capable adult, and by capable I mean someone with some Biblical back-bone and experience working with teens. It shouldn't just be a look at what the Bible says about homosexuality, but it should be a solid teaching of Christian doctrine.

 

I'm afraid your church will not be able to minister to these girls any longer. The gossip is CERTAIN to make it to their ears:glare:

 

 

I agree w/ Every. Word. of this post.

 

 

 

 

 

Also, what an opportunity to speak with your daughter about something that is perhaps not often spoken about. I'm not speaking of homosexuality here, I'm speaking of whether or not it is acceptable for a person of faith to "ambush" someone, which is what it seems like you are describing.

Insert any other issue that your faith deems sinful for the words "bisexual" and "homosexual" and re-read your post to decide if the actions are appropriate.

 

Originally Posted by Beth in OH

People involved in sexual sin fall short of the standard of God. Our response should be the same toward homosexuals as it is toward any person falling short of the standard of God.

 

Katia-- it sounds like you already had most of this figger'd out, so that's great :) The tough part will be living thru implementing it!!! Good luck!!