What does Appalachia mean to you?

[saraha]

Obviously this comes from politics, but I seriously want to keep this apolitical.

What does Appalachian mean to you?

dd17 recently entered a short story into a contest wanting work representative of Appalachia. When I read her story, I was proud of parts of her story (not Appalachian related) but disappointed in her portrayal of “Appalachia”, it felt like it leaned heavily on stereotypes, the sources of which she was not actually exposed to.

The culmination of the contest was to have winning stories read by actors. I was surprised by the rankings of the top 9 submissions. The ones I felt were for more appropriate to the brief didn’t score as high, and there was literally one short piece explaining how a woman grew up in an area 50 miles from the edges of Appalachia and why she considered herself Appalachian.

I am not from Appalachia. I spent my formative years in run down parts of Michigan, Pennsylvania and Ohio. I married a man with deep roots in a community on one edge of Appalachia and we have raised our kids a mile from the farm he grew up on. Our Appalachia looks different from other areas of this big geographical swath, and with all of this talk about Appalachia all of the sudden, I’m curious about what other people think about it in general, and what people rooted in Appalachia have to say.

[MEmama]

40 minutes ago, saraha said:

I’m curious about what other people think about it in general

So, the stereotypes? I think every American is well aware of those. Stereotypes are usually wrong, yet based in truth.

Or are you asking geography? OU in Athens is Appalachia and so is deep West Virginia. Different culturally though.

[MEmama]

No one would consider Middletown as Appalachian though lol

[Lecka]

I just checked on the title, I read Dopesick by Beth Macy a few years ago.  That’s what my current opinion is based on, I think.  It’s not a part of the country I know a lot about.  

[prairiewindmomma]

I think Appalachia as the economic designation created by Congress in 1965 doesnt necessarily line up nicely with the different subcultures in those same counties. Most people dont think of southern NY or even Pittsburgh as being part of Appalachia, culturally. 
 

My grandmother thought of herself as rooted in Appalachia, culturally, even though she was on a bordering county. 
 

The things that put Appalachia into a distinguished economic zone as part of a poverty eradication program: environmental degradation, flooding, geographic isolation, etc. are sadly replicated in other pockets of the US, particularly as weather patterns have shifted with climate change. 
 

I think the cultural affiliation (which is more than the redneck stereotype, imo) is what more people identify with.

[Arcadia]

What comes to mind are the Native Americans and the Appalachian mountains. 
https://www.arc.gov/tribal-communities-in-the-appalachian-region/

[wintermom]

I associate Appalacian with geography - as in a mountain range extending from NY to where ever it might change names to something else. I'm Canadian, so I have no knowledge about other local cultural factors associated with the term "Appalacian.'

[WildflowerMom]

My family was Appalachian.  To me, it means living more off what you have around you, being close to family and neighbors to make it through tough times, passing down *lots* of stories to the younger set, living on less money than a lot of people do, scratch cooking, helping each other out, telling people where your family is from and no one has ever heard of it, lol.  

[QueenCat]

Not Middletown, Ohio... 

[Pawz4me]

A geographic and cultural region with beautiful scenery is mostly what I first think of.

[livetoread]

See, I'd quibble about Middletown, OH. Sure it's not technically Appalachian, but it's full of people who are from there, if that makes sense. When the steel mill was thriving, lots of people from KY and WV moved to Middletown to work at the mill, but maintained their family connections back home, often driving back on the weekends. When the mill cut way back, they stayed, but the town has suffered quite a bit. I'm guessing a pretty sizable part of Middletown is from Appalachia, even if one or so generations removed, and culturally it certainly fits the negative stereotypes of other Appalachian towns with similar problems. 

ETA unlike some other cities and towns around the area which absorbed Appalachian migrants into a more SW Ohio culture which is more rural midwest in flavor.

Edited August 19 by livetoread

[Carol in Cal.]

I think of the book:  Christy.

[DawnM]

Before I lived in the South, I thought of most people in the region as poor.  I just thought all of it was like that.   Now that I live here, I know that it is a huge land area with many diverse individuals and it includes towns and cities, not just rural areas.

My birth father lives in Appalachia.   He worked an engineer.

[Ottakee]

My fathers family was from northwest NC so not sure if that counts or not.

Most of my ideas came from books….Christy, The Bookwoman, and others set in that area.

My parents lived in WV before I was born and as a family we still own several large pieces (well 25-40 aces) there.

I think of the interesting cultures and music and dialects.   The hard times, early marriages, poverty and lack of education but also the beauty of the area and resourcefulness of the people.

[Katy]

Before this election I only thought of it as the mountain range with the Appalachian Trail going through it. I wasn’t aware there was a congressional labeled area until this thread!

[kbutton]

2 hours ago, MEmama said:

No one would consider Middletown as Appalachian though lol

I agree, but sometimes it’s called Middletucky. 

2 hours ago, prairiewindmomma said:

I think Appalachia as the economic designation created by Congress in 1965 doesnt necessarily line up nicely with the different subcultures in those same counties. Most people dont think of southern NY or even Pittsburgh as being part of Appalachia, culturally. 
 

My grandmother thought of herself as rooted in Appalachia, culturally, even though she was on a bordering county. 
 

The things that put Appalachia into a distinguished economic zone as part of a poverty eradication program: environmental degradation, flooding, geographic isolation, etc. are sadly replicated in other pockets of the US, particularly as weather patterns have shifted with climate change. 
 

I think the cultural affiliation (which is more than the redneck stereotype, imo) is what more people identify with.

Yes! And Appalachian does not equal redneck. Maybe in some places it does, but not where I grew up, which was not settled by the same people group as mentioned in the book Christy (or Outlander). The part I am from was settled by New Englanders all largely from the British Isles followed by waves of migration from Europe—people who came to work in the mines (including some people from the British Isles that were not part of the early New England settlements).

1 hour ago, WildflowerMom said:

My family was Appalachian.  To me, it means living more off what you have around you, being close to family and neighbors to make it through tough times, passing down *lots* of stories to the younger set, living on less money than a lot of people do, scratch cooking, helping each other out, telling people where your family is from and no one has ever heard of it, lol.  

This. And it’s mysterious to us that people elsewhere don’t necessarily live this way. I moved to the larger Middletucky area, and am surprised at how odd it is to live on less, cook from scratch, etc., though the helping each other out can apply sometimes.

There is also more of an inter-generational weaving of concerns and caretaking. For instance, when I show up to my YA’s medical appointments (which he arranges and pays for) to give family history, ask questions, etc., providers from middle America think this is weird. Providers from South Asia treat is like it’s normal. Sometimes I wonder if Appalachia simply retained a sense of cooperation and connectedness that other areas outgrew or just didn’t experience.

[saraha]

2 hours ago, MEmama said:

So, the stereotypes? I think every American is well aware of those. Stereotypes are usually wrong, yet based in truth.

Or are you asking geography? OU in Athens is Appalachia and so is deep West Virginia. Different culturally though.

Just general things that come to mind, differences, similarities. I have a limited experience with all things Appalachian. Dh says I can’t ever be considered Appalachian (which I agree) but that he and our kids are Appalachian. I went to Alice Lloyd college in eastern KY where I met dh, so have some experience living there and living here in Ohio, but living on a farm here in Appalachian Ohio is very different than the lifestyle of the people in the community our school was located in. So there is this wide range of culture that is all labeled Appalachian.

When talking about this with dh, he laughed and said of course our children are Appalachian, they all but oldest can clog! 😆 See when my girls were young they wanted to take dance lessons like girls do, but the only dance classes around were clogging two towns over that was taught in a defunct grocery store…

[kbutton]

Just now, saraha said:

When talking about this with dh, he laughed and said of course our children are Appalachian, they all but oldest can clog! 😆 See when my girls were young they wanted to take dance lessons like girls do, but the only dance classes around were clogging two towns over that was taught in a defunct grocery store…

And I am from the non-Scottish part of Appalachia. No clogging involved. No highlanders. But there is polka from the people in the other part of my family line who came later from Poland. PA, which is mostly Appalachia (and so diverse), had public polka going on at the state fair last time I was there. When I was a kid, there was an American Bandstand style of show on PBS that was all polka, lol! We did the polka in gym class, though I am not exactly competent myself. 

[MEmama]

1 minute ago, saraha said:

Just general things that come to mind, differences, similarities. I have a limited experience with all things Appalachian. Dh says I can’t ever be considered Appalachian (which I agree) but that he and our kids are Appalachian. I went to Alice Lloyd college in eastern KY where I met dh, so have some experience living there and living here in Ohio, but living on a farm here in Appalachian Ohio is very different than the lifestyle of the people in the community our school was located in. So there is this wide range of culture that is all labeled Appalachian.

When talking about this with dh, he laughed and said of course our children are Appalachian, they all but oldest can clog! 😆 See when my girls were young they wanted to take dance lessons like girls do, but the only dance classes around were clogging two towns over that was taught in a defunct grocery store…

Most things people are mentioning can be said about New England, too, though the migration patterns were different (New Englanders tended to settle the upper Midwest and in to the Pacific Northwest, which is why many old communities and general attitudes remain similar). Appalachia was settled (generally, of course) by the Scots-Irish, a different people culturally than other those from other parts of Britain who settled New England. 

[kbutton]

Just now, MEmama said:

Most things people are mentioning can be said about New England, too, though the migration patterns were different (New Englanders tended to settle the upper Midwest 

Yes! Thinking Caddie Woodlawn here.

I hear a lot of similarities in Michigan and upstate NY accents, though they are diverging over time. 

 

[MEmama]

https://www.lmc.edu/about/news-center/articles/2022/in-the-mountains-the-scots-irish-heritage-in-appalachia.htm

This might of interest 

[prairiewindmomma]

Don’t quote, as this is a bit identifying, so I’ll pull it out later…

I don’t view fiddling and picking or clogging and contra dancing as uniquely appalachian either. (Pulled out story)

Edited August 19 by prairiewindmomma

[kbutton]

On the interconnectedness angle…you might not know everyone where you live, but you will be connected in some way. Where I am from, when you meet someone that is not clearly a flatlander, no conversation takes place past hello and nice to meet you until everyone has “placed” each other. And be assured, they will place you, lol!😂

 

Edited August 19 by kbutton
Removed some more identifiable info

[QueenCat]

2 hours ago, livetoread said:

See, I'd quibble about Middletown, OH. Sure it's not technically Appalachian, but it's full of people who are from there, if that makes sense. When the steel mill was thriving, lots of people from KY and WV moved to Middletown to work at the mill, but maintained their family connections back home, often driving back on the weekends. When the mill cut way back, they stayed, but the town has suffered quite a bit. I'm guessing a pretty sizable part of Middletown is from Appalachia, even if one or so generations removed, and culturally it certainly fits the negative stereotypes of other Appalachian towns with similar problems. 

ETA unlike some other cities and towns around the area which absorbed Appalachian migrants into a more SW Ohio culture which is more rural midwest in flavor.

Sorry, but this is in my area. Very close, as my job often takes me there. And we eat/dine there. Middletown 2024 is making a comeback. 

And no one living in Middletown considers their area a part of Appalachia. That's like saying if a group of people from Georgia transplanted there then it's a Georgian area. People often go visit family back "home." That doesn't mean their new home is now part of their old region. The people I know who live in Middletown are quite offended that people are saying that they are in Appalachia or are hillbillies. 

[saraha]

@prairiewindmomma I see what you are saying.
I think dh’s point was that even though I’ve lived in Appalachia more years than I didn’t I won’t be Appalachian. But our children have been raised here  in the same ways, surrounded by the same people, being taught (in this case clogging in a defunct, rundown grocery store by an old man and his sister who used to run the store, but it closed when they shut down the power plant and now they teach clogging because they were too old/poor to start another business) the same traditions he and his parents and their parents were is what makes them Appalachian, not just the clogging.

[prairiewindmomma]

I dont know that interconnectedness = Appalachia either. I view that as more small town dynamics. (Removed story)

Edited August 20 by prairiewindmomma

[prairiewindmomma]

I do agree that connections to the community and to the land and history do define a community….so if your community is Appalachian, then you are too.

[kbutton]

9 minutes ago, prairiewindmomma said:

I dont know that interconnectedness = Appalachia either. I view that as more small town dynamics. Again, my family has been in the same small town since it was founded (they were among the founders) so everyone is related to and connected to anyone else whose family has been there 3+ generations. Everyone is connected back to their People and place in stories and going to the store is an extended meet & greet. 

I don’t feel like all small towns function this way, but I would also say that midwestern small towns are very different from small towns where I grew up. Sidewalks vs. no sidewalks alone is a big difference with a different culture. 

[Carol in Cal.]

10 minutes ago, QueenCat said:

Sorry, but this is in my area. Very close, as my job often takes me there. And we eat/dine there. Middletown 2024 is making a comeback. 

And no one living in Middletown considers their area a part of Appalachia. That's like saying if a group of people from Georgia transplanted there then it's a Georgian area. People often go visit family back "home." That doesn't mean their new home is now part of their old region. The people I know who live in Middletown are quite offended that people are saying that they are in Appalachia or are hillbillies. 

You know, there isn’t anyone claiming that Middleton is part of Appalachia, but rather that there are so many people from Appalachia there that it is very culturally similar.  Kind of like “Little Kabul” in Fremont, CA—not part of Afghanistan, but their is an Afghani cultural pocket there.

[kbutton]

11 minutes ago, QueenCat said:

And no one living in Middletown considers their area a part of Appalachia

I think this is coming from a certain famous person from Middletown in a book he wrote. It’s been discussed in a past thread.

 

[kbutton]

Just now, Carol in Cal. said:

You know, there isn’t anyone claiming that Middleton is part of Appalachia, but rather that there are so many people from Appalachia there that it is very culturally similar.  Kind of like “Little Kabul” in Fremont, CA—not part of Afghanistan, but their is an Afghani cultural pocket there.

Maybe part of Appalachia. I don’t at all fit in with Middletown, and I am “Actually Appalachian.”

[Terabith]

3 hours ago, Lecka said:

I just checked on the title, I read Dopesick by Beth Macy a few years ago.  That’s what my current opinion is based on, I think.  It’s not a part of the country I know a lot about.  

She’s from my town, Roanoke, VA!  We are on the Appalachian Trail (literally the biggest city on it), but we are not culturally or geographically considered Appalachian.  
 

My family lived for two years in Pikeville, Kentucky, home of the Hatfields and McCoys and down the road from Hazard.  You don’t get more Appalachian than that.  Moonshine and coal and poverty the like that doesn’t really exist in other areas of the country.  
 

Pennsylvania has deep Appalachia, too. 

[saraha]

8 minutes ago, Terabith said:

She’s from my town, Roanoke, VA!  We are on the Appalachian Trail (literally the biggest city on it), but we are not culturally or geographically considered Appalachian.  
 

My family lived for two years in Pikeville, Kentucky, home of the Hatfields and McCoys and down the road from Hazard.  You don’t get more Appalachian than that.  Moonshine and coal and poverty the like that doesn’t really exist in other areas of the country.  
 

Pennsylvania has deep Appalachia, too. 

Yes, That area is very different from where dh and I live now. Dh and I saw Trace Adkins before he was big and “Daisy Duke” at Hazard’s black gold festival one year. Our school is just outside of Hazard and a Hatfield and a McCoy both lived in my dorm and there was no end to the comments.

Edited August 19 by saraha

[prairiewindmomma]

5 minutes ago, Terabith said:

Moonshine and coal and poverty the like that doesn’t really exist in other areas of the country.  
 

Right. My hometown has English/Scottish roots among its settlers so we have folk dancing and fiddling and picking and frugality as underpinnings (along with a heavy German Mennonite flavor), but we dont have coal or moonshine or that strain of poverty. My land ties are more of the cattle, wheat, and terrible severe weather (which = crop loss = perpetual struggle) variety.

[Terabith]

The college that I worked at for three summers in Pikeville had a required speech class for students, not focused on public speaking but on modulating your accent so you could be understood by people outside of Appalachia.  This was around 2000, and it was a real issue.  

[QueenCat]

14 minutes ago, Carol in Cal. said:

You know, there isn’t anyone claiming that Middleton is part of Appalachia, but rather that there are so many people from Appalachia there that it is very culturally similar.  Kind of like “Little Kabul” in Fremont, CA—not part of Afghanistan, but their is an Afghani cultural pocket there.

My response was to this, by livetoread. And NO, the culture today is NOT culturally similar. If you ask my friends who grew up there, it wasn't 20-30 years ago, either. I don't know people there from further back to ask them. But it's a topic here, especially with a political figure implying it's something it's not. : 

Livetoread's comment:

See, I'd quibble about Middletown, OH. Sure it's not technically Appalachian, but it's full of people who are from there, if that makes sense. When the steel mill was thriving, lots of people from KY and WV moved to Middletown to work at the mill, but maintained their family connections back home, often driving back on the weekends. When the mill cut way back, they stayed, but the town has suffered quite a bit. I'm guessing a pretty sizable part of Middletown is from Appalachia, even if one or so generations removed, and culturally it certainly fits the negative stereotypes of other Appalachian towns with similar problems. 

ETA unlike some other cities and towns around the area which absorbed Appalachian migrants into a more SW Ohio culture which is more rural midwest in flavor.

Edited 2 hours ago by livetoread

[QueenCat]

17 minutes ago, kbutton said:

I think this is coming from a certain famous person from Middletown in a book he wrote. It’s been discussed in a past thread.

 

Oh, definitely. It's come up IRL conversations more lately because of the book & other things the famous person said. And the people who are truly offended by the suggestion that they must be Appalachian if they're from Middletown.

[saraha]

9 minutes ago, Terabith said:

The college that I worked at for three summers in Pikeville had a required speech class for students, not focused on public speaking but on modulating your accent so you could be understood by people outside of Appalachia.  This was around 2000, and it was a real issue.  

I took a Spanish class my freshman year and the poor professor was brand new and not from anywhere near. Three weeks in she had given up and we did a LOT of written/book work. That was mid90s 😆

Edited August 19 by saraha

[Lecka]

26 minutes ago, Terabith said:

She’s from my town, Roanoke, VA!  We are on the Appalachian Trail (literally the biggest city on it), but we are not culturally or geographically considered Appalachian.  

Re: Dopesick by Beth Macy.  The book is not all set in Roanoke, I am pretty sure she sets parts of the book in Appalachia.  I’m pretty sure parts are in a coal-mining area, that is what I think is in Appalachia.  Not sure, though.  

Edited August 19 by Lecka

[Terabith]

4 minutes ago, Lecka said:

Re: Dopesick by Beth Macy.  The book is not all set in Roanoke, I am pretty sure she sets parts of the book in Appalachia.  I’m pretty sure parts are in a coal-mining area, that is what I think is in Appalachia.  Not sure, though.  

Oh, yeah, sorry.  Beth Macy is from Roanoke.  She lives like 10 minutes from me.  The book isn’t set here primarily.  

Edited August 19 by Terabith
Left out a preposition

[saraha]

36 minutes ago, saraha said:

I took a Spanish class my freshman year and the poor professor was brand new and not from anywhere near. Three weeks in she had given up and we did a LOT of written/book work. That was mid90s 😆

At one point this girl in class was trying to ask her a question in Spanish, but the teacher didn’t understand what she was saying and told her to ask in English. So she did. And the teacher stood there for a minute, blinked, and said I can’t understand you in either language!

 

[-----]

nm

Edited August 30 by kathyl

[saraha]

Just now, kathyl said:

A nice place to visit but never never EVER want to live there again.

Dh, on the other hand, is from Appalachia and loves it there.  I tell him he can go live there, and I'll stay here, and he can come visit me here.  😉      

Do you care to say why? I mean I know it’s not for everyone, my sister didn’t think I would last 2 years here and is still surprised.

[Terabith]

Appalachia is coal mining, union members, moonshine and Ale 8 drinking, eating cornbread and mushy green beans cooked with bacon grease kept in an old cool whip container and salmon patties once a week with beans you grow in your garden.  (The salmon is necessary to prevent pellagra.) It's fried bologna sandwiches and Tasty Cakes and convenience foods.  It's using an out house at church and your granny who just got running water in her holler 30 years ago.  It's deep abiding feuds with your neighbor that last generations, meth and opioids.  It's sweet tea on the porch and deep suspicion of outsiders and not wanting your kids to get above their raisin' (and maybe being skeptical of education encouraging them to do that), and discipline from a switch picked on the side of the road.  It's skepticism of paved roads.  It's the ultimate do it yourself, destitute poverty, warm neighborliness.  It's the ultimate in warmth and cruelty.  It's clogging in grocery stores and a thick layer of dingy coal dust all over everything.  It's religion and individualism and suspicion.  It's hammered duclimer and banjo playing and comfort in the backwoods and picking crawdads from the crick.  

[saraha]

@Terabith that’s beautiful 

[-----]

nm       

Edited August 30 by kathyl

[Terabith]

6 minutes ago, kathyl said:

I guess I just never fit in.  It was the same with dh's relatives.  All my relatives are "Flatlanders" from the Deep South (southern Louisiana, specifically) and I fit in perfectly down there.  But out of all dh's relatives, exactly 2 of them were friendly to me.  Most of them would just stare at me or ignore me when I tried to get to know them - on a surface level, nothing deep.  That deep suspicion of 'outsiders', like Terabith said above is what I concluded after a couple of decades of living there.  I think she summed it up well.

And many of dh's relatives and the locals where we lived (and traveled) had a way of interacting that I just did not enjoy and couldn't do.  Dh could do it perfectly and make an instant connection, but I loathed it.  Dc and I used to call it "that hillbilly thang" where they go back and forth with pointed comments for about 5 minutes before getting into actual conversation.  

There are absolutely gorgeous areas all over the Appalachian area.  We lived in one.  But, to me, the culture just always felt very suffocating and closed off.          

Same.  Lots to appreciate, but I was never comfortable there.  And I think very few people who are not generations deep into it really fit in.  You'll always be an outsider.  So much that was admirable, but they weren't my people, and I was frightened and dismayed by how entrenched the poverty was.  It's the kind of poverty that money can't fix.  

I have often thought, however, that if we're ever going to settle other planets, we should send people form Appalachia to do it.  Nobody does do it yourself and rugged individualism and isolationism like Appalachia.

[-----]

nm

Edited August 30 by kathyl

[saraha]

My Appalachia is rolling hills instead of hollers, lots of family members all living on the same road that has their last name. It’s having to explain your family tree to every new person you meet and talking about family that “got out” coming home for a visit like they are celebrities. It’s rampant alcoholism and meth and children being raised by their family members. It’s underemployment, lack of internet, and full time jobs. It’s shells of towns full of broke down buildings.

It’s going to the grocery store and shopping with Amish, Mennonite, Adams county Baptists, and small town women dressed for a night club. It’s the library being the place to go for gossip and information you didn’t get at church. It’s hearing shooting all weekend long and every family get together at some point has everyone pulling out their guns to show and tell.

It’s where Redneck ingenuity is not a hobby, it’s a way of life and the crazier the fix, the more proud you are. And 5 kids in your class all wearing the same shirt because all their mommas got them from the same dollar store. 

It’s beautiful scenery, good simple food, and a love for nature.
It’s fierce love and loyalty that can harm as much as it helps.

ETA: I can’t believe I forgot the tobacco! My Appalachia (up until 6 or 7 years ago) meant starting tobacca, setting tobacca, weeding tobacca, topping tobacca, cutting tobacca, hanging tobacca, and stripping tobacca. We lost our contract to sell it 6 or 7 years ago and I was NOT sorry. It was grown everywhere here, but you hardly see it being grown at all in the last several years.

Edited August 20 by saraha

[Catwoman]

1 hour ago, QueenCat said:

My response was to this, by livetoread. And NO, the culture today is NOT culturally similar. If you ask my friends who grew up there, it wasn't 20-30 years ago, either. I don't know people there from further back to ask them. But it's a topic here, especially with a political figure implying it's something it's not.

It's cracking me up that people are arguing with you, despite the fact that you are actually in that area and they... aren't.