Freedom of Movement for those with disabilities

[frogger]

So Mercy said she would be interested in a thread about this. I thought I'd just start with personal experience. I tried to find a decent article but maybe I will find one later.

Mobility is key to freedom. To be able to work, go to the doctor, run errands, or just do what you want to do on your own time is something a lot of us take for granted.

For those without the ability to go where and when they want to, roads are often a block to everything they want to do. It isn't that we have roads, which of course have benefits, but that they are prioritized to the detriment of everyone else. 

My little brother with Down Syndrome is perfectly cabable of walking around his small town if drivers could choose not to drive dangerously but that is not the case. He is in constant danger from speeding drivers. Speed limits are way too high in town. He is activily being blocked by drivers from things he wants to do. My step -mom did find him an apartment directly behind his work so he just walks on a residential street to get to work but he can't go anywhere else. Three of the roads which go through town have 45 mph speed limits which means people are often driving well over 50 through this little town. His apartment is more expensive then a number of apartments across the stroad with the 45 speed limit but he has to pay the higher price on a grocery bagger's salary because of the danger drivers pose . So higher prices, sitting in his apartment waiting for rides, lack of freedom to go anywhere all so drivers can save 90 seconds getting through town. My brother is lucky. Many disabled cannot walk to work.

Before that apartment he had a service for those with disabilities that picked him up. They didn't always show up though. He also sometimes couldn't get a ride if it was busy. He couldn't put in for a ride super early for work  because the grocery store wouldn't give him steady hours. So he often missed work and was stuck at home instead. People who have to schedule rides  ahead of time are severly limited in what they can do. Often he is dependent on friends or family to do anything. That is not freedom. We know many others with intellectual disabilities because he went to school with them etc. It is sad how many end up home all the time because it is hard to get them to work or social activities, etc. 

My Aunt who uses a mobility scooter and can no longer walk does have a very very expensive van (people less well off might not have this option.) with hand controls. Not only does she require special parking for her scooter to be lowered automatically but then she has to actually be able to use it. Places with their own large parking lots like box stores that have straight shots inside are ok but things that require you to park in one area and get to another area (anything downtown) requires better multi-modal infastructure. So sometimes she just doesn't get to do stuff. 

Blind people are especially vulnerable because they can't drive but also have to navigate dangerous roads where car drivers do not pay attention or care. Last year there was a story of a blind man wading through snow and climbing over berms with the guide dog BEHIND him because the dog was struggling with the snow. A journalist saw him and stopped to interview him. He needed to get to an appointment. He missed his stop because his bearings were messed up with the snow berms. He explained his dog wanted to follow in his footsteps  when the snow was too deep.

I have seen wheel chairs in the middle of 4 lane roads because that was the only placed plowed. People are angry for slowing them down. Do they not have the right to buy groceries or go to the doctor? Do they just have to sit in their apartment until they die? So car drivers won't be slowed down for 60 seconds? I have also seen them navigate sidewalks with a friend helping them push through snow and they were barely moving and they had help! I have seen them being blocked by a construction sign set in the sidewalk (because you daren't take any road space). What are they supposed to do? Take their wheelchair over the curb into traffic? The lanes are typically big enough to have something on the edge but no, we must block the narrow sidewalk instead. Sigh

Anyway, people who can't get licenses are severly limited in their freedoms. Some who can drive still have limited access when we don't prioritize other infastructure as well. 

I am sure there are a hundred other things to say but I have typed too long already. 

 

 

 

Edited February 11 by frogger

[Harriet Vane]

I caught on and started to understand just a tiny piece of this when we moved from a huge city with great public transportation to a place with very few bus options and inconsistent sidewalks. In many ways our new home in the suburbs was a dream (especially the big yard). But now, for example, I have a teen foster kid who cannot get to a job or to her special school unless I drive her there. There is no public transportation in my neighborhood at all, and there are no sidewalks either. It's hard enough on a regular teenager. I would imagine it would be terribly isolating for anyone with a disability.

[frogger]

6 minutes ago, Harriet Vane said:

I caught on and started to understand just a tiny piece of this when we moved from a huge city with great public transportation to a place with very few bus options and inconsistent sidewalks. In many ways our new home in the suburbs was a dream (especially the big yard). But now, for example, I have a teen foster kid who cannot get to a job or to her special school unless I drive her there. There is no public transportation in my neighborhood at all, and there are no sidewalks either. It's hard enough on a regular teenager. I would imagine it would be terribly isolating for anyone with a disability.

The super sad part is, my brother doesn't need expensive public transport which I understand may not be practical everywhere. He went out of his way to pay extra to live where he could walk and he still can't because it is too much to ask drivers to drive a reasonable speed in city limits where there is a lot of pulling in and out of drives and parking lots and pedestrians because the drivers might lose 2 or 3 minutes time going from one end of the town to the other. It would cost taxpayers nothing to lower the speed limits and not build more ridiculous wide speedy roads through the town center. 😕 There is no winning, no matter how cheap and easy the solution when people only care about cars. 

[Ottakee]

Transportation is the number one barrier for my students for employment, recreation, and just daily living.  I work with students 18-26 with mild/moderate intellectual disabilities and/or Austin’s spectrum disorders.

That and affordable housing.

[MercyA]

@frogger, thank you so much for this thread. I'm ashamed to say this is not a topic I've thought a lot about. I so appreciate you sharing your experiences. 

It seems to be an American trend to not be willing to put up with the slightest inconvenience to oneself to help someone else. We saw it during the pandemic and I'm starting to see it in so many other places. The message indeed seems to be that people who are vulnerable, ill, disabled, or inconvenient should just stay home or go ahead and die already. 

It needs to change.

[Bambam]

I think this can also apply to the elderly who are no longer driving or should no longer be driving. My MIL lives in an Independent Living facility. They offer transportation to various stores on specific days of the week - but everyone goes together and there is a specific amount of time you are allotted, so hurry back to the bus. For the folks with trouble getting on/off (scooters, etc) - it takes them so long to get on/off, there is not much time left to actually shop.  They do offer transportation to doctors/beauty salon/whatever 3 days per week if you schedule at least 24 hours in advance and no one already has that slot already taken. But you are dropped off and they return later (sometimes much later) to pick you up. 

For her, I'm available and happy to take her the places she needs to go and will happily wait for her, but if you don't have family nearby who can actually help with transportation, it is a major hassle, so I can sorta understand why many elderly continue to drive when they probably shouldn't be.  Voluntarily giving up independence is hard. 

And it isn't just transportation that is hard for the elderly - so much has converted to online/apps, and that is just outside their experience/comfort zone. Want to get a Rules of the Road book to study before taking a driving test? Only available online now.  Want to see what the test results were from the doctor? Available on your online health portal (which is also the best way to ask questions/request appointments - especially if you are already struggling with hearing loss). Want to make an appointment to get your state picture id? Again - online - just showing up any more in our state without an appointment is NOT a good idea.  Want to schedule a vaccination (which many doctors aren't doing any more - go to pharmacy)? -Again, it works best if you set up an online appointment.  Oh, yes, let's also see that many hearing aids now have apps to control them. Yeah, I don't think that is going to work either. 

And for those with hearing loss, it is really hard to do any interactions in a public place. I go along as the communicator because MIL just can't hear and understand the words.  

Edited February 11 by Bambam

[Innisfree]

1 minute ago, Bambam said:

 

I think this can also apply to the elderly who are no longer driving or should no longer be driving.

 

 

1 minute ago, Bambam said:

And it isn't just transportation that is hard for the elderly - so much has converted to online/apps, and that is just outside their experience/comfort zone.

Both very true. 

[MEmama]

36 minutes ago, MercyA said:

@frogger, thank you so much for this thread. I'm ashamed to say this is not a topic I've thought a lot about. I so appreciate you sharing your experiences. 

It seems to be an American trend to not be willing to put up with the slightest inconvenience to oneself to help someone else. We saw it during the pandemic and I'm starting to see it in so many other places. The message indeed seems to be that people who are vulnerable, ill, disabled, or inconvenient should just stay home or go ahead and die already. 

It needs to change.

It's not an American problem, it's a leadership problem. Change and attitudes start at the top, for better and for worse. With as much internal conflict as there is in pretty much every country, it's hard to get anything done, particularly when an enormous percentage of a population votes against politicians and policies that help people (ie who vote against their better interests). This is far from unique to any singular country and it's a disservice to pretend otherwise.

 

Edited February 11 by MEmama

[MEmama]

Recently in a train station in a small town in the Netherlands, I noticed a vision impaired woman with a cane navigating the station on her own. I was curious how she moved with such confidence in a crowded space, before realizing her entire path was created of raised "bumps" which guided her through with ease. Looking around, I saw the raised path led not only from the doorway to the platform, but to the ticket machines and everywhere else a person might need to utilize. It was SO HUMANE. I then noticed the same in every country we went, also along many sidewalks along busy shopping type streets the length of the street and leading to every street corner with a light and crosswalk. 
 

I've no idea how such things happen, but it takes *leadership*. It takes compassion, it takes a small amount of money to allocate and it takes the will. Nowhere does it happen easily, but it certainly benefits everyone.

[Bambam]

3 minutes ago, MEmama said:

I've no idea how such things happen, but it takes *leadership*. It takes compassion, it takes a small amount of money to allocate and it takes the will. Nowhere does it happen easily, but it certainly benefits everyone.

Unfortunately, it is not a small amount of money. Especially in older towns that were built before anyone thought about this. 
https://www.baltimorebrew.com/2021/06/30/baltimores-estimate-of-the-cost-of-ada-compliance-a-whopping-657-million/

And the original costs are not the only costs associated with this. In my mind, you need someone or some system to report when maintenance is needed. I'm going to assume bumps providing guidance for the blind are going to fall off, be knocked off, wear off over time, whatever and will need replacement.  Same with the ramps at the corners of sidewalks - just as the sidewalks develop cracks, holes, bumps etc - the entire thing will need maintenance/repair/replacement. 

I'm not against doing any of this, but it isn't going to be a small amount of time and money - especially if local government is involved. And we need to be determined to maintain it in good condition as well. Bumpy sidewalks are hazards too. 

[KungFuPanda]

For my family, we got around navigating the occasional “dead end” curb with technology. DS’s wheelchair had a ‘spider drive’ feature that let him climb a curb. He was forced to use it way more often than should be necessary; once at a hospital when someone was parked in the access ramp between handicapped spots. 
 

For us it was airline travel that was logistically impossible. There is do way to drive a power wheelchair on a plane and park it. You have to transfer out of your chair then into an airline seat and the transfer equipment doesn’t fit on a plane. Once DS moved from a manual to a power chair we just stayed on our coast and drove everywhere. Even then, we couldn’t use the type of hotel beds that were on boxes because transfer equipment doesn’t roll under it.  We also needed a roll in shower.

Luckily we live where we never ran out of day trip options. 

[MEmama]

51 minutes ago, Bambam said:

Unfortunately, it is not a small amount of money. Especially in older towns that were built before anyone thought about this. 
https://www.baltimorebrew.com/2021/06/30/baltimores-estimate-of-the-cost-of-ada-compliance-a-whopping-657-million/

And the original costs are not the only costs associated with this. In my mind, you need someone or some system to report when maintenance is needed. I'm going to assume bumps providing guidance for the blind are going to fall off, be knocked off, wear off over time, whatever and will need replacement.  Same with the ramps at the corners of sidewalks - just as the sidewalks develop cracks, holes, bumps etc - the entire thing will need maintenance/repair/replacement. 

I'm not against doing any of this, but it isn't going to be a small amount of time and money - especially if local government is involved. And we need to be determined to maintain it in good condition as well. Bumpy sidewalks are hazards too. 

And that's why I include good leadership and will. Since when did so many people give up?

Anyway, I'm sure many of our subways provide similar accommodations, I just haven't been aware of it because I haven't been looking. That's on me and now I'm more aware and can do better.

I once watched a video how in Japan when an elderly or disabled person approaches the doorway of a train from the platform, workers rush out with a small board to cover the gap. Everyone was like Only in Japan can they do something so wonderful, but last I time I took the train from my small town in the US they did the same thing. It's never a question of can we or can't we, it's a question of how much do we want to help each other. And that goes back to good leadership and will. 

[frogger]

53 minutes ago, Bambam said:

Unfortunately, it is not a small amount of money. Especially in older towns that were built before anyone thought about this. 
https://www.baltimorebrew.com/2021/06/30/baltimores-estimate-of-the-cost-of-ada-compliance-a-whopping-657-million/

And the original costs are not the only costs associated with this. In my mind, you need someone or some system to report when maintenance is needed. I'm going to assume bumps providing guidance for the blind are going to fall off, be knocked off, wear off over time, whatever and will need replacement.  Same with the ramps at the corners of sidewalks - just as the sidewalks develop cracks, holes, bumps etc - the entire thing will need maintenance/repair/replacement. 

I'm not against doing any of this, but it isn't going to be a small amount of time and money - especially if local government is involved. And we need to be determined to maintain it in good condition as well. Bumpy sidewalks are hazards too. 

Some things are expensive or logistically hard to get right. The wise thing to do is to start with the low hanging fruit. There are expensive things and cheaper things. Start with the things that logistically make sense.

Requiring drivers to actually know how to drive and take serious their responsability isn't costly comparatively. Lowering speed limits in busy areas isn't costly. Taking the license and car of people who misuse their privalage isn't costly. 

We spend way more to make a drivers trips quicker. We spend billions of dollars for divers convenience. Maintanence of things like side walks, stop lights for crosswalks is such a tiny fraction of that and relatively cheap compared to roads.  It is about priorities.

 

[GoVanGogh]

I have young onset Parkinson’s and am losing my ability to drive. One of my biggest challenges is when other drivers dart in and out of traffic lanes, often times across three lanes of traffic while speeding. That fast diagonal movement triggers extreme and immediate vertigo, where I feel like I am falling head down a cliff. It is horrible even when I am in the passenger seat, but extremely dangerous when I am behind the wheel. I am in the suburbs of a major city. To get anywhere, one must use the freeway, which I cannot do anymore. I drive side streets whenever I do drive but that isn’t always an option. 
 

Another huge vertigo trigger is glass shower doors at hotels. And low lighting, esp at restaurants in the evening. I know that sounds petty and so minor compared to many physical disability challenges. Neurological challenges are often hidden. I look perfectly healthy - until I don’t. Then I appear “drunk” and very unsteady on my feet. I need help walking to the bathroom in a restaurant in the evening because I can’t walk in low lighting. I have gone to vestibular therapy and it helped some, but more than anything it showed that my brain needs all the visual cues possible to keep my head in an upright position. Anything “off” and my head pitches forward. 
 

I would love mass transit options. We do have some availability in the next suburb over to connect on to the city’s mass transit but it would take hours to get anywhere that way. 

[MercyA]

3 hours ago, MEmama said:

It's not an American problem, it's a leadership problem. Change and attitudes start at the top, for better and for worse. With as much internal conflict as there is in pretty much every country, it's hard to get anything done, particularly when an enormous percentage of a population votes against politicians and policies that help people (ie who vote against their better interests). This is far from unique to any singular country and it's a disservice to pretend otherwise.

You are right of course. I was just speaking about my growing realization about the way my country is. I know other countries have the same problems.

And I agree that much of the problem is our current inability to get things done politically. 

[Terabith]

The reason most US areas don’t have public transportation or walkable streets is simply racism.  There was a huge push to deliberately destroy the black middle class to build interstates, and that was a choice made deliberately.  There was a deliberate choice to exclude poor people and people of color from society by making it car centric, leaving areas with huge food deserts and inner cities tens of degrees hotter in the summer.  It’s the same deliberate choice behind our convoluted healthcare system that leaves so many people out.  
 

https://reconnectrochester.org/2020/08/the-american-automobile-and-racial-exclusivity/

I know about these things because I learned history from awesome African American teachers who taught history through the lens of their black experience. The last few years have made me aware that that was a very unique education.  But I think it’s important for people to understand that this is a deliberate choice we’ve made as a society.  It is not an accident. 

[kbutton]

This (and housing) is why so many disabled people literally move to my rural hometown. It needs some work, and it’s not perfect, but it’s possible (for now) to still live in town and not drive. It’s a rarity these days. However, local businesses have to compete with cheaper options that are farther away, so who knows how long people will continue to be able to buy clothes in town. There is a risk that groceries will move to being entirely on the edge of town, just past where the sidewalks stop.

 

[KSera]

53 minutes ago, kbutton said:

This (and housing) is why so many disabled people literally move to my rural hometown. It needs some work, and it’s not perfect, but it’s possible (for now) to still live in town and not drive. It’s a rarity these days. However, local businesses have to compete with cheaper options that are farther away, so who knows how long people will continue to be able to buy clothes in town. There is a risk that groceries will move to being entirely on the edge of town, just past where the sidewalks stop.

 

I might PM you to see what town. I have a person who would benefit from that setup. 

[Mrs Tiggywinkle Again]

1 hour ago, kbutton said:

This (and housing) is why so many disabled people literally move to my rural hometown. It needs some work, and it’s not perfect, but it’s possible (for now) to still live in town and not drive. It’s a rarity these days. However, local businesses have to compete with cheaper options that are farther away, so who knows how long people will continue to be able to buy clothes in town. There is a risk that groceries will move to being entirely on the edge of town, just past where the sidewalks stop.

 

I suspect this is where my parents will end up because it really is a good setup for my disabled sister if she’s able to work a self sustaining job and needs to walk there. 

My sister’s processing speed is too slow for her to drive. They live in a small village now that’s walkable if there was somewhere to walk to, but there’s no industry or groceries, just a few churches, coffee shop, gas station and tiny library.  It is a major, major issue for her to have any form of independence, and she’s over 30 now with just no independence. My parents are too busy to drive her somewhere(mom takes care of her very elderly mother and dad still works)  and had foolishly assumed that most of my siblings would stay local enough to help out with her. They haven’t, and now it’s a big problem.

I don’t know what the answer is in rural areas though, even smaller villages. There isn’t the tax base or population numbers to support something like robust bus systems. It would have to be federal dollars sustaining it.

[MercyA]

1 hour ago, kbutton said:

 It needs some work, and it’s not perfect, but it’s possible (for now) to still live in town and not drive. It’s a rarity these days. However, local businesses have to compete with cheaper options that are farther away, so who knows how long people will continue to be able to buy clothes in town. There is a risk that groceries will move to being entirely on the edge of town, just past where the sidewalks stop.

Same here, although we don't have any clothing for sale except at Dollar General. We do have a nice grocery store, library, movie theater, restaurants, etc.

A good percentage of baggers and stockers at the grocery store have intellectual or other disabilities and other employees have significant life challenges. My dad was the manager for decades, and we've always privately joked a bit, calling it "[Grocery Store's] Rehab Center" because it's very inclusive and they rarely fire anyone for any reason.

[kbutton]

4 minutes ago, MercyA said:

Same here, although we don't have any clothing for sale except at Dollar General. We do have a nice grocery store, library, movie theater, restaurants, etc.

A good percentage of baggers and stockers at the grocery store have intellectual or other disabilities and other employees have significant life challenges. My dad was the manager for decades, and we've always privately joked a bit, calling it "[Grocery Store's] Rehab Center" because it's very inclusive and they rarely fire anyone for any reason.

Kroger fills that niche here—they hire a lot of people with special needs! We don’t live where I grew up.

[kbutton]

34 minutes ago, Mrs Tiggywinkle Again said:

I don’t know what the answer is in rural areas though, even smaller villages. There isn’t the tax base or population numbers to support something like robust bus systems. It would have to be federal dollars sustaining it.

Probably stipends, but I don’t know. They do have some rural busing there, but it is limited. I know in areas with a lot of Amish people, there are drivers who cater to those who need to go where a horse and buggy cannot.

People who are on DD waivers in Ohio can use transportation providers, so I think if there were stipends like that more widely available, someone would fill that niche.

[catz]

This is a bit of an aside, but there is this urban planner on youtube that just makes videos talking about different cities and how they are put together and how they work for bikes, pedestrians, transit, living areas, cost of living, etc.  Not specifically about those with disabilities, though I suspect urban landscapes that are better and safer for walkers and bikers, likely work better for the disabled as well.  I have really enjoyed watching his stuff - his channel is called City Nerd.  I started watching because our city came up a few times, but now I just watch all his stuff.

https://www.youtube.com/@CityNerd

[MEmama]

52 minutes ago, catz said:

This is a bit of an aside, but there is this urban planner on youtube that just makes videos talking about different cities and how they are put together and how they work for bikes, pedestrians, transit, living areas, cost of living, etc.  Not specifically about those with disabilities, though I suspect urban landscapes that are better and safer for walkers and bikers, likely work better for the disabled as well.  I have really enjoyed watching his stuff - his channel is called City Nerd.  I started watching because our city came up a few times, but now I just watch all his stuff.

https://www.youtube.com/@CityNerd

We love City Nerd! Also, Not Just Bikes and lots of others.

[Drama Llama]

2 hours ago, catz said:

This is a bit of an aside, but there is this urban planner on youtube that just makes videos talking about different cities and how they are put together and how they work for bikes, pedestrians, transit, living areas, cost of living, etc.  Not specifically about those with disabilities, though I suspect urban landscapes that are better and safer for walkers and bikers, likely work better for the disabled as well.  I have really enjoyed watching his stuff - his channel is called City Nerd.  I started watching because our city came up a few times, but now I just watch all his stuff.

https://www.youtube.com/@CityNerd

Not necessarily, bike lanes can block access to the curb for wheelchairs and wheelchair vans.  Sometimes they are well designed and accessible but sometimes they create major problems. 

[katilac]

3 hours ago, Drama Llama said:

Not necessarily, bike lanes can block access to the curb for wheelchairs and wheelchair vans.  Sometimes they are well designed and accessible but sometimes they create major problems. 

What does that look like? the bike lanes I've seen are literally just painted lines on the street. 

[ktgrok]

On 2/11/2024 at 8:46 AM, MercyA said:

@frogger, thank you so much for this thread. I'm ashamed to say this is not a topic I've thought a lot about. I so appreciate you sharing your experiences. 

It seems to be an American trend to not be willing to put up with the slightest inconvenience to oneself to help someone else. We saw it during the pandemic and I'm starting to see it in so many other places. The message indeed seems to be that people who are vulnerable, ill, disabled, or inconvenient should just stay home or go ahead and die already. 

It needs to change.

Yes. I had to get off Reddit the other day after reading about someone who refused to watch her neighbor's kids for an hour while the woman went to the hospital. She said the people in the apartment complex all would hang out in the courtyard while kids played together, including her kids. She'd been there a year, knew this next door neighbor for a year. But when the neighbor knocked on her door at 3am in a panic because she was in very active/advanced labor and her sister couldn't get there to watch her kids for another hour, this woman refused to watch the laboring woman's kids for that hour. 

And many if not most comments supported her decision, saying it "wasn't her problem". 

For a "Christian nation" we sure seem to have skipped over the story about the Good Samaritan. (not to mention in this particular case about the innkeeper NOT being the hero of the story when he says there is no room in the inn!)

it made me so sad/angry I just got off social media for the night. Read a nice book about a serial killer since at least that was fiction. (and I know, often posts on Reddit are fiction as well...but at least some of those commenting were likely serious)

[MEmama]

10 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

Yes. I had to get off Reddit the other day after reading about someone who refused to watch her neighbor's kids for an hour while the woman went to the hospital. She said the people in the apartment complex all would hang out in the courtyard while kids played together, including her kids. She'd been there a year, knew this next door neighbor for a year. But when the neighbor knocked on her door at 3am in a panic because she was in very active/advanced labor and her sister couldn't get there to watch her kids for another hour, this woman refused to watch the laboring woman's kids for that hour. 

And many if not most comments supported her decision, saying it "wasn't her problem". 

For a "Christian nation" we sure seem to have skipped over the story about the Good Samaritan. (not to mention in this particular case about the innkeeper NOT being the hero of the story when he says there is no room in the inn!)

it made me so sad/angry I just got off social media for the night. Read a nice book about a serial killer since at least that was fiction. (and I know, often posts on Reddit are fiction as well...but at least some of those commenting were likely serious)

The US is not and hopefully never will be a "Christian nation" no matter what some people (not you) want to believe or say to score points.

Also that story is appalling and I cannot imagine how that person lives with themself after turning down a request for help. Disgusting. 😞 

Edited February 13 by MEmama

[MEmama]

On 2/12/2024 at 12:33 AM, katilac said:

What does that look like? the bike lanes I've seen are literally just painted lines on the street. 

Yes, if a bike lane doesn't offer various accommodations it is poorly planned. That's not a bike (ie non-car centric) problem, that's a basic city planning problem.

 

[bolt.]

1 hour ago, MEmama said:

Yes, if a bike lane doesn't offer various accommodations it is poorly planned. That's not a bike (ie non-car centric) problem, that's a basic city planning problem.

 

In Amsterdam, with what I would call dedicated bike 'streets' alongside vehicle streets, and additional traffic flow management for public transit vehicles, many intersections become just *incredibly* complex. If I was a local, I'm sure I would get used to the intersections that were relevant to my life. I can see how an alert, aware physically disabled person might not have any barriers in their way. However, the complexity itself would seem to be a barrier for people with any sort of cognitive or processing-related difficulty.

There were many times there were 2, 3 (or even 4, one time) individual signals for walking. Each one, you pressed that you would like to cross, and each would signal you across some few lanes of a complex roadway. Then there would be a narrow median to stand on, and another button to push, and wait for the signal to cross the next portion of the intersection.

There were sections that seemed (to foreigners) to be plazas or walking spaces, which were in fact, bicycle roadways, tram lines, or other things -- all of which were indicated by the colour and type of paving underfoot. Train and other public transit spaces were similarly huge, complex, and challenging to find one's way through. They definitely have the textured paving paths for the blind, but it's not like there's just one exit to the street from any given Metro station.

But there were definitely sidewalks and three forms of public transit to get everywhere! It's just a place where you have to keep your wits about you. I have a hard time believing that someone who had any sort of diminished mental faculties could navigate well, except by a memorized route, or with a companion.

Edited February 13 by bolt.

[SHP]

On 2/11/2024 at 12:39 PM, Terabith said:

The reason most US areas don’t have public transportation or walkable streets is simply racism.  There was a huge push to deliberately destroy the black middle class to build interstates, and that was a choice made deliberately.  There was a deliberate choice to exclude poor people and people of color from society by making it car centric, leaving areas with huge food deserts and inner cities tens of degrees hotter in the summer.  It’s the same deliberate choice behind our convoluted healthcare system that leaves so many people out.  
 

https://reconnectrochester.org/2020/08/the-american-automobile-and-racial-exclusivity/

I know about these things because I learned history from awesome African American teachers who taught history through the lens of their black experience. The last few years have made me aware that that was a very unique education.  But I think it’s important for people to understand that this is a deliberate choice we’ve made as a society.  It is not an accident. 

Thank you for this well worded reply. I had mentioned this in other topics on housing and was blown off. I will start pointing to this post when it comes up again. 

This is such a huge issue and one that is deeply rooted in racism, politics, and general ignorance of these events. 

[MEmama]

3 hours ago, bolt. said:

In Amsterdam, with what I would call dedicated bike 'streets' alongside vehicle streets, and additional traffic flow management for public transit vehicles, many intersections become just *incredibly* complex. If I was a local, I'm sure I would get used to the intersections that were relevant to my life. I can see how an alert, aware physically disabled person might not have any barriers in their way. However, the complexity itself would seem to be a barrier for people with any sort of cognitive or processing-related difficulty.

There were many times there were 2, 3 (or even 4, one time) individual signals for walking. Each one, you pressed that you would like to cross, and each would signal you across some few lanes of a complex roadway. Then there would be a narrow median to stand on, and another button to push, and wait for the signal to cross the next portion of the intersection.

There were sections that seemed (to foreigners) to be plazas or walking spaces, which were in fact, bicycle roadways, tram lines, or other things -- all of which were indicated by the colour and type of paving underfoot. Train and other public transit spaces were similarly huge, complex, and challenging to find one's way through. They definitely have the textured paving paths for the blind, but it's not like there's just one exit to the street from any given Metro station.

But there were definitely sidewalks and three forms of public transit to get everywhere! It's just a place where you have to keep your wits about you. I have a hard time believing that someone who had any sort of diminished mental faculties could navigate well, except by a memorized route, or with a companion.

Yes I've been to Amsterdam and other Dutch cities many times. One gets used to it 🙂 

[MEmama]

3 hours ago, bolt. said:

In Amsterdam, with what I would call dedicated bike 'streets' alongside vehicle streets, and additional traffic flow management for public transit vehicles, many intersections become just *incredibly* complex. If I was a local, I'm sure I would get used to the intersections that were relevant to my life. I can see how an alert, aware physically disabled person might not have any barriers in their way. However, the complexity itself would seem to be a barrier for people with any sort of cognitive or processing-related difficulty.

There were many times there were 2, 3 (or even 4, one time) individual signals for walking. Each one, you pressed that you would like to cross, and each would signal you across some few lanes of a complex roadway. Then there would be a narrow median to stand on, and another button to push, and wait for the signal to cross the next portion of the intersection.

There were sections that seemed (to foreigners) to be plazas or walking spaces, which were in fact, bicycle roadways, tram lines, or other things -- all of which were indicated by the colour and type of paving underfoot. Train and other public transit spaces were similarly huge, complex, and challenging to find one's way through. They definitely have the textured paving paths for the blind, but it's not like there's just one exit to the street from any given Metro station.

But there were definitely sidewalks and three forms of public transit to get everywhere! It's just a place where you have to keep your wits about you. I have a hard time believing that someone who had any sort of diminished mental faculties could navigate well, except by a memorized route, or with a companion.

Of course another approach is to view the volume of cars as the problem, which is precisely why so many cities are reducing vehicle lanes and turning them back (or flat out creating)spaces that work for humans instead. I far prefer that approach myself, having travelled extensively and having followed localized news, about both the headaches and benefits.

North America is way behind when it comes to workable city planning, but cities that do adopt a different way of thinking show that is absolutely possible and beneficial.

[Arcadia]

On 2/11/2024 at 5:46 AM, MercyA said:

It seems to be an American trend to not be willing to put up with the slightest inconvenience to oneself to help someone else.

My country of origin is a lot worse. People using walkers on sidewalks already get annoyed looks from others “rushing about” their day. Wheelchairs are even more frown upon. Inconsiderate people ride their scooters on sidewalks and don’t care if they knock someone down. Recently they added wheelchair access to a few public buses. My late cousin has down syndrome and people aren’t kind. My late mom was wheelchair bound about a year before she passed and she became home bound because she can’t go anywhere. It wasn’t safe for my dad to take her for a walk around the neighborhood. Even if they were to take a cab to the mall, the mall itself is not wheelchair friendly. 

[frogger]

7 hours ago, bolt. said:

In Amsterdam, with what I would call dedicated bike 'streets' alongside vehicle streets, and additional traffic flow management for public transit vehicles, many intersections become just *incredibly* complex. If I was a local, I'm sure I would get used to the intersections that were relevant to my life. I can see how an alert, aware physically disabled person might not have any barriers in their way. However, the complexity itself would seem to be a barrier for people with any sort of cognitive or processing-related difficulty.

There were many times there were 2, 3 (or even 4, one time) individual signals for walking. Each one, you pressed that you would like to cross, and each would signal you across some few lanes of a complex roadway. Then there would be a narrow median to stand on, and another button to push, and wait for the signal to cross the next portion of the intersection.

There were sections that seemed (to foreigners) to be plazas or walking spaces, which were in fact, bicycle roadways, tram lines, or other things -- all of which were indicated by the colour and type of paving underfoot. Train and other public transit spaces were similarly huge, complex, and challenging to find one's way through. They definitely have the textured paving paths for the blind, but it's not like there's just one exit to the street from any given Metro station.

But there were definitely sidewalks and three forms of public transit to get everywhere! It's just a place where you have to keep your wits about you. I have a hard time believing that someone who had any sort of diminished mental faculties could navigate well, except by a memorized route, or with a companion.

I imagine small towns would be easier for the those with mental challenges rather than big cities. My brother lives in a small town north of me (only needs to put in traffic calming and lower speed limits and things would be better for walkers) well and plow sidewalks but the city to the south has some decent bike paths. The lovely thing about them is the connect from green belt to greenbelt with only short sections by the actual road. Of course, these short sections can get you killed but you have to use them to get to actual businesses etc. Most of your trip can be off road completely. 

The best thing is that often these trails simply go under the road through a tunnel. I realize this isn't so simple in a very dense compact city like Amsterdam. Each place has its own challenges. 

[Kalmia]

I hear you. My sibling is smart, well-educated, and legally blind therefore has always been limited in her job opportunities by not being able to drive and by living in an area with terrible public transportation and a cold climate. Sibling has so many stories of the sidewalks not being plowed and having to walk in the road and getting splashed by slush or having to jump out of the way of cars. Sibling also has been denied jobs after several interviews because sibling has no driver's license. When asked why this office job requires a driver's license, they will say that once a year they have a meeting upstate and she'd have to be able to get herself there!?!? They don't accept, "I could take Uber, bus, train, friend will drive me." Nope. This is a very rural state, most destinations require driving. No driver's license no job. So sibling has always been underemployed considering the level of skill and intelligence.

This plus people are worse drivers than I have ever experienced before. It is like they don't know they have a brake pedal. They just go. Our local bus drivers say that people pass their stopped (red lights flashing) busses weekly and they are getting better cameras so that they have proof to prosecute. I was sad they paved our bumpy road, because I knew drivers would go much faster without any feedback from the road, and I was right.  An Amish carriage driven by a young boy in our region was hit by a speeder (horse and boy survived). There is no consideration at all for walkers, riders, or slow drivers. It is often depraved indifference for human life. And of course for those with disabilities, who may not be able to fling themselves off to the roadside to avoid a distracted or aggressive driver, it is life-limiting. 

There are organizations like Strong Towns, America Walks, and Walk Friendly Communities work to push redesign of roadways to accomodate walkers, bicyclists, children, people with disabilities. It will be slow process, but maybe they will make a difference. 

Edited February 14 by Kalmia

[Arcadia]

15 hours ago, Kalmia said:

Sibling also has been denied jobs after several interviews because there's no doesn't have a driver's license. When asked why this office job requires a driver's license, they will say that once a year they have a meeting upstate and she'd have to be able to get herself there!?!? They don't accept, "I could take Uber, bus, train, friend will drive me." Nope. No driver's license no job.

That is so sad. I don't have a driver’s license and I used to work in tech. My former employers and my husband’s employers gives commuter benefits (bus/transit passes, company buses) and we could claim cab fare, Uber, mileage for getting ourselves to work anywhere other than our usual workplace. My former boss even reimbursed me for cab fares for overtime and weekends. I know not everyone like or want a tech job but the bigger ones at least try to get the transportation part right even though they do benefit as well from a larger pool of people to pick from.