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[Drama Llama]

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Edited February 27 by Drama Llama

[Drama Llama]

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Edited February 27 by Drama Llama

[Rosie_0801]

Sometimes parents forget that obedience and relationship aren't synonyms...

[fairfarmhand]

I'm so sorry. Can the priest talk to your dh? Would that be effective?

[Drama Llama]

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Edited February 27 by Drama Llama

[Drama Llama]

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Edited February 27 by Drama Llama

[Heartstrings]

7 minutes ago, Drama Llama said:

I think there's a very good chance that the priest is the spy.  

I think that is a very good reason to start attending a different parish.  
 

This priest probably means well but is beyond wrong for this.  All he should be communicating to DH is that your children are well cared for in all aspects, including spiritually, and the DH has no need to worry and can comfortably focus on healing himself.  

Edited January 22 by Heartstrings

[Heartstrings]

1 minute ago, Drama Llama said:

I am pretty sure that even though I haven't sought a divorce or an annulment, my priest thinks the separation is a sin on my part.  

Is this something you can take above him? Even if he feels this way shouldn’t he only speak if your sin to you? Priests won’t usually even go to law enforcement over crimes that are confessed, surely gossiping with your DH would be frowned upon?

[Frances]

If they are willing, would it work for the grandfather or great grandfather to talk to your husband?

[itsheresomewhere]

The priest being the spy doesn’t surprise me at all.  He must have gone to the same class as the local one who has made more tension in a neighbors divorce that doesn’t need to be added too ( I guess the priest doesn’t understand/care what restraining orders are). 
 

My good friend had a relationship with her parents like that.  It did push her away from their religion but actually gave her the gift of learning boundaries and finding a wonderful church family that supports her and her family.

 If anything out of this-  I hope your DS finds the same. One that feeds not only his soul but helps all of yours. 

[Drama Llama]

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Edited February 27 by Drama Llama

[Sneezyone]

17 minutes ago, Rosie_0801 said:

Sometimes parents forget that obedience and relationship aren't synonyms...

This part. This level of control is a a glaring red flag. Protect you/your kids’ autonomy.

Edited January 22 by Sneezyone

[Grace Hopper]

31 minutes ago, Drama Llama said:

I think there's a very good chance that the priest is the spy.  

I would immediately change churches. Your younger son can be involved with the youth group there (new place) and make new friendships. And you need to be able to develop supportive friendships for yourself. 
 

Your kids have relationships with peers in other activities. They can still grow up Catholic, just in a different parish. But keep in mind that priests can talk to each other if their father prods your current priest to do so. 
 

I also know you didn’t ask this, but if the move back to the old house was primarily for the purpose of returning to the old parish, well, I might just chalk it out to a test run with results indicating you may need to once again relocate.
 

Sorry this is such a crummy situation for you all. I am glad you supervise their calls and can cut things off quickly.  

 

Edited January 22 by Grace Hopper

[Grace Hopper]

28 minutes ago, Drama Llama said:

I am pretty sure that even though I haven't sought a divorce or an annulment, my priest thinks the separation is a sin on my part.  

He is not objective enough to judge wisely. That poses a danger for you and your kids. 

[Sneezyone]

47 minutes ago, Grace Hopper said:

He is not objective enough to judge wisely. That poses a danger for you and your kids. 

Srsly. Run, don’t walk, to a new religious community; even if it’s the same denomination (to keep your promise) and further away. State, in writing, why you’re doing so to the new priest/pastor, trusted friends and kids (if old enough) and request amnesty/protection. Document all of this contemporaneously, your reasons, suspicions, kid reactions. All of it will be important in court.

Edited January 22 by Sneezyone

[Katy]

I’m curious about why you think it’s the priest rather than the sister. But I’m sure he asked because he’s curious, nosy, and controlling. He got distracted by that rather than thinking about the end goal, 

[Sneezyone]

I am dealing with a similar dynamic with loved ones. NOTHING has gone unnoticed/un-witnessed, to the point where third parties are involved in every FaceTime call. For a lot of people, kids are pawns in a game. You have to prove this is how your ‘ex’ sees things.

Edited January 22 by Sneezyone

[Drama Llama]

15 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

I am dealing with a similar dynamic with loved ones. NOTHING has gone unnoticed/un-witnessed, to the point where third parties are involved in every FaceTime call. For a lot of people, kids are pawns in a game. You have to prove this is how your ‘ex’ sees things.

We had a third party on the call, like we always do, and lots of documentation.  

[Drama Llama]

42 minutes ago, Katy said:

I’m curious about why you think it’s the priest rather than the sister. But I’m sure he asked because he’s curious, nosy, and controlling. He got distracted by that rather than thinking about the end goal, 

I know the priest talks to him regularly, which is good in general.  The man needs guidance!  But he shouldn't be reporting on whether I came to church.  If he wants to say "I saw your boys at church.  X is getting so tall!" I can live with that.  But this goes beyond that. 

My SIL was not at church with the boys, but could have information from the 9 year old.  I dropped her off there this morning, and I don't know if SIL was awake or at home.  So, she could have grilled her daughter to get information to pass on.  Which would mean 3 kids stuck in the middle of this, rather than just my two. 

 

ETA:  He asked because he is afraid the answer is "she's out of town with her lover" or something.  "She went to a later service, because she stayed home with a sleepy kid" would have reassured him, except it's not my kids' job to police my behavior, for things that are only happening in the recesses of his mind.  

Edited January 22 by Drama Llama

[Sneezyone]

43 minutes ago, Drama Llama said:

We had a third party on the call, like we always do, and lots of documentation.  

Good. No one should have to fear that their service attendance is being noted and reported to others. Your paper trail must be strong/unimpeachable. I’m not above copying people I barely know, on ‘accident’. I have requested my family tormentor be barred from contacting employers, friends, clergy, and medical providers iso information.

ETA: the projection in these folks is strong.

Edited January 22 by Sneezyone

[Innisfree]

1 hour ago, Heartstrings said:

Is this something you can take above him?

This was my thought, too. Churches have hierarchies for reasons. If you want to continue involvement in this parish, can someone over the priest in the hierarchy tell him he must seriously shut up? 

If that’s not realistic, then yes, I would be attending a different church. I’m so sorry.

[Lecka]

Wow, I am so sorry this happened!

The only thing I think is — your ex-husband will not think that anything he is doing is causing a problem.  It will just be your fault.  
 

I have seen people sabotage others this way, and it’s never that they have responsibility for the sabotage, or the outcome of the sabotage.

 

It’s always “I always knew….” And confirms whatever bad thing they think about someone.  
 

It is totally irrational and it’s so sad to see.

 

I also think, whoever “the spy” is is at some fault.  
 

But it’s a distractions from the person with the main fault, the ex-husband.

 

He might even be sabotaging your older son directly.  
 

I have no idea what to do about it or what steps to take.  
 

I think there are many pros to this move, and this is a con, and trying to focus on the pros and minimize the cons is always a good thing to do.  
 

As far as why, I think it’s just not being willing to take responsibility for his own actions.

 

Why against his own child that he wants to have a strong religious background…..

 

I think just from thinking “we don’t have a good relationship, why not, it can’t be my fault, it must be his fault.”  Or else — it must all be mom’s fault.  
 

And also people can think, “they won’t be able to manage without me.”  If people are managing, why not throw in a monkey wrench, to get to see how they can’t manage.  
 

I hope your ex-husband will realize he doesn’t want to act in these ways, but right now he is acting in these ways.  It’s not anything you guys are doing to cause it, and it’s not really a mystery that he is not living up to his values right now.  
 

I talked to someone recently, whose ex-husband always complained about church when they were married.  They attended her childhood church, when he would go.  Then after they got a divorce, one year later, he started attending the same church with his new wife, and acting really into-it and involved.  She changed churches, and it was her childhood church!  I thought that was so low.  She is remarried and has found a great church now that is really a good fit for them.  But still — what a low thing to do.  It’s not a small town, there are many other churches and even other churches in the same denomination.  

Edit:  also, this is really controlling behavior.  So controlling.  He’s going to reach out and poison something just because he can and that’s how he can have some control.  I think, at least.  

 

Edited January 22 by Lecka

[Katy]

I’m sorry. I’d still suspect it’s SIL, but just in case I’d go to the priest and express regrets that because someone in the parish is feeding information to husband that is feeding his delusions, for the sake of his mental health you are forced to go elsewhere. Then change. Mostly because if it isn’t the priest but is SIL, she’s likely to complain about you at some point. And if it is him, perhaps he’ll learn to keep his mouth shut. 

[Drama Llama]

25 minutes ago, Katy said:

I’m sorry. I’d still suspect it’s SIL, but just in case I’d go to the priest and express regrets that because someone in the parish is feeding information to husband that is feeding his delusions, for the sake of his mental health you are forced to go elsewhere. Then change. Mostly because if it isn’t the priest but is SIL, she’s likely to complain about you at some point. And if it is him, perhaps he’ll learn to keep his mouth shut. 

The priest has shared info in the past.  I can sort of wrap my mind around his thinking, although I disagree 100%.

My SIL has shared information in the past and her sole motivation is to make me look bad and cause mayhem.  In order for it to have been her, she would have had to been digging specifically for the info.  

[Kanin]

29 minutes ago, Drama Llama said:

My SIL has shared information in the past and her sole motivation is to make me look bad and cause mayhem.  In order for it to have been her, she would have had to been digging specifically for the info.  

Yuck. 100% not a fan of SIL!

[Lecka]

Is his point to show “I’ve got spies”? 

Or is his point “I caught you not going to church”?

Just a rhetorical question.

If his point is to show he has spies — I would leave a church where it might be the priest.  That just doesn’t seem like a good situation, to be wondering like that.

I think that’s not fair, but since this is so upsetting to your children, it’s hard to choose not to care.  

[Faith-manor]

I am so sorry. This is sooooooo sucky! Your ex seems incapable of adhering to even a simple boundary, and his sister and the priest are complicit. Sticking kids in the middle is unforgivable of them.

I hope you do seek out a new religious community, and if anyone asks who your spouse is or where, just say that this is privileged information on a need to know basis and they do jot need to know. The nosy nellies may not like it, but they will learn to live with it.

Many many virtual hugs from me to you and your children.

[Harriet Vane]

10 hours ago, Sneezyone said:

Srsly. Run, don’t walk, to a new religious community; even if it’s the same denomination (to keep your promise) and further away. State, in writing, why you’re doing so to the new priest/pastor, trusted friends and kids (if old enough) and request amnesty/protection. Document all of this contemporaneously, your reasons, suspicions, kid reactions. All of it will be important in court.

This.

[ScoutTN]

11 hours ago, Drama Llama said:

I think there's a very good chance that the priest is the spy.  

Sounds as though that church will not be an emotionally safe place. Time to find a new spiritual home?! 

Edited January 22 by ScoutTN

[Heartstrings]

2 hours ago, Drama Llama said:

The priest has shared info in the past.  I can sort of wrap my mind around his thinking, although I disagree 100%

Does this priest not believe in mental illness, perhaps? Does the church have an official stance on separation due to such issues? 

[Pam in CT]

11 hours ago, Sneezyone said:

Srsly. Run, don’t walk, to a new religious community; even if it’s the same denomination (to keep your promise) and further away. State, in writing, why you’re doing so to the new priest/pastor, trusted friends and kids (if old enough) and request amnesty/protection. Document all of this contemporaneously, your reasons, suspicions, kid reactions. All of it will be important in court.

This.

[prairiewindmomma]

Abusers are going to abuse. I don’t think his comment was about his irrational fear, it was about control. He is going to manipulate whomever he can to try to control you, as he has demonstrated repeatedly.

[scholastica]

I wouldn’t jump to leave the parish without ascertaining that it is the priest. Can you meet with him to ask him if he thinks your separation is a sin on your part? Is this an impression you get or has he told you that? You have all the information on your past interactions with this priest. If it’s possible that he would be reasonable and listen to you about not sharing information about you to your ex, I would go that route before I jumped to a different parish. Since your kids are excited to be “home”, I would do everything I could to stay there, if possible. Is he young and inexperienced? Older and convinced he is doing the right thing to try to put a marriage back together? Would a letter from dh’s therapist or your kids’ therapist help him understand that would passing info to your dh is bad for dh’s mental health? Do you know for sure it was him? If he really is meddling, then that would be completely out of line and you could ask for a meeting with the vicar for clergy in your diocese. You will need some level of documentation that this is happening. If it’s happening to you, it’s probably happening or has happened to others. Some priests do not understand the limits of their pastoral practice, get confused about their role in “helping” their parishioners in crisis, don’t understand psychology, etc. He may need additional training/correction. You may need to join another parish and get the kids in involved there. 
 

I would be willing to bet it’s your SIL, especially for it to happen so quickly. Priests are pretty busy on Sundays. I would doubt he had the time to contact your dh.

[chiguirre]

OP, how much do you have to be involved in the relationship between your sons and your dh? Do you have to enforce contact legally? Are they old enough to call him/receive calls on their own and hang up when they want to?

I think you should disengage as much as possible. IIRC, they're in high school and really old enough to decide if they want to go to church or not on their own. Trying to force them will absolutely backfire. That's also true of a relationship with their dad. You can't force them to do that. If they want to cuss him out or freeze him out, he'll have to work through that on his end. You can't fix it. All you can do is be a safe harbor from the storm. Hugs.

[Drama Llama]

39 minutes ago, chiguirre said:

OP, how much do you have to be involved in the relationship between your sons and your dh? Do you have to enforce contact legally? Are they old enough to call him/receive calls on their own and hang up when they want to?

I think you should disengage as much as possible. IIRC, they're in high school and really old enough to decide if they want to go to church or not on their own. Trying to force them will absolutely backfire. That's also true of a relationship with their dad. You can't force them to do that. If they want to cuss him out or freeze him out, he'll have to work through that on his end. You can't fix it. All you can do is be a safe harbor from the storm. Hugs.

Our parenting agreement is something that was worked out over months, with input from the court, and a custody evaluator, and multiple therapists, and multiple lawyers.  It cost more than a new car.  I can’t say unilaterally that they can do something different.  

[Sneezyone]

3 hours ago, chiguirre said:

OP, how much do you have to be involved in the relationship between your sons and your dh? Do you have to enforce contact legally? Are they old enough to call him/receive calls on their own and hang up when they want to?

I think you should disengage as much as possible. IIRC, they're in high school and really old enough to decide if they want to go to church or not on their own. Trying to force them will absolutely backfire. That's also true of a relationship with their dad. You can't force them to do that. If they want to cuss him out or freeze him out, he'll have to work through that on his end. You can't fix it. All you can do is be a safe harbor from the storm. Hugs.

I tried this approach with my own kids and it was a COMPLETE fail. Allowing unfettered access to my children as older teens allowed the abuser to attempt (unsuccessfully) manipulating them as well. My goal, at the time, was to make sure my kids were grounded in healthy family dynamics (enough to protect themselves). Mission accomplished...now...but it wasn't an easy road and there were bumps and bruises. Despite offering unfettered access to older teens, the abuser blamed/blames *me* for my kids' refusal to engage/have contact. I'm getting a do-over with a younger child and have asked for no contact. To be clear, I don't think this is about faith at all. It's about an unhealthy adult who wants to control the behavior and choices of a grown woman and (almost) adult children. That colors my view.

Edited January 22 by Sneezyone

[Drama Llama]

11 hours ago, Kanin said:

Yuck. 100% not a fan of SIL!

Me neither.

[Drama Llama]

You want to know something weird?  She doesn’t take her kids to church.  They go with my FIL, but assuming it’s her, she’s tattling on me for something she doesn’t do.

To be clear, I don’t think anyone needs to go to church.  I just think it’s a little hypocritical.

[scholastica]

FWIW, I don’t think his behavior will drive them away from church so much as drive them away from him. Is anyone working with him on healthy communication, behavior and family dynamics? It seems he is very lacking in these areas. 

[Drama Llama]

5 hours ago, Sneezyone said:

I tried this approach with my own kids and it was a COMPLETE fail. Allowing unfettered access to my children as older teens allowed the abuser to attempt (unsuccessfully) manipulating them as well. My goal, at the time, was to make sure my kids were grounded in healthy family dynamics (enough to protect themselves). Mission accomplished...now...but it wasn't an easy road and there were bumps and bruises. Despite offering unfettered access to older teens, the abuser blamed/blames *me* for my kids' refusal to engage/have contact. I'm getting a do-over with a younger child and have asked for no contact. To be clear, I don't think this is about faith at all. It's about an unhealthy adult who wants to control the behavior and choices of a grown woman and (almost) adult children. That colors my view.

Yeah, my kids are not talking to him without supervision. 

[scholastica]

2 minutes ago, Drama Llama said:

You want to know something weird?  She doesn’t take her kids to church.  They go with my FIL, but assuming it’s her, she’s tattling on me for something she doesn’t do.

To be clear, I don’t think anyone needs to go to church.  I just think it’s a little hypocritical.

I think she found out a piece of information about you when her dd got home and couldn’t wait to tell her brother on you. It’s not church that’s important to her, it’s instigating.

[Drama Llama]

2 minutes ago, scholastica said:

FWIW, I don’t think his behavior will drive them away from church so much as drive them away from him. Is anyone working with him on healthy communication, behavior and family dynamics? It seems he is very lacking in these areas. 

I think that the church and him get tangled up in everyone’s mind.  

[Innisfree]

Just now, Drama Llama said:

I think that the church and him get tangled up in everyone’s mind.  

That sounds like a good reason to go to a different church.

[Drama Llama]

I want to say “Thank you” to all of you.  Sometimes, I feel like I am so mired in the dysfunction that I don’t know when something is legitimately scary vs a trauma response from me.  So while on one hand it’s not reassuring to know you think I should be angry or scared, it’s also nice to be reassured that my instinctive response was correct.

I don’t think I can stop the spying.  He’s got too many avenues for that.  But, I can set a boundary that protects my children from getting dragged into it.  They don’t deserve to be scared.  My agreement says that the kids or I can terminate a call, so I can hang up like I did.

As far as leaving the church, I don’t know.  I don’t believe any longer.  I only attend because I promised that the kids would and I don’t want them to feel like it’s a choice between me and him.  But there is also something meaningful to me about being in a space where all of my kids were baptized and received their first communion, and where I said my wedding vows. As time goes on, my memories of our middle child fade and being there sometimes makes it a little easier to remember how he felt in my arms when I became his godmother, or how his eyes sparkled when he took communion, or watched his beloved aunt come down the aisle in her wedding dress, or listened to his brother sing a solo at Christmas.  Allowing DH to steal that those moments from me doesn’t seem like the right choice.

So, I don’t know what I will do, other than hang up every time.

[Drama Llama]

I know that was incoherent but I think I will just leave it.  

[Heartstrings]

25 minutes ago, Drama Llama said:

I want to say “Thank you” to all of you.  Sometimes, I feel like I am so mired in the dysfunction that I don’t know when something is legitimately scary vs a trauma response from me.  So while on one hand it’s not reassuring to know you think I should be angry or scared, it’s also nice to be reassured that my instinctive response was correct.

I don’t think I can stop the spying.  He’s got too many avenues for that.  But, I can set a boundary that protects my children from getting dragged into it.  They don’t deserve to be scared.  My agreement says that the kids or I can terminate a call, so I can hang up like I did.

As far as leaving the church, I don’t know.  I don’t believe any longer.  I only attend because I promised that the kids would and I don’t want them to feel like it’s a choice between me and him.  But there is also something meaningful to me about being in a space where all of my kids were baptized and received their first communion, and where I said my wedding vows. As time goes on, my memories of our middle child fade and being there sometimes makes it a little easier to remember how he felt in my arms when I became his godmother, or how his eyes sparkled when he took communion, or watched his beloved aunt come down the aisle in her wedding dress, or listened to his brother sing a solo at Christmas.  Allowing DH to steal that those moments from me doesn’t seem like the right choice.

So, I don’t know what I will do, other than hang up every time.

I think that’s a rational decision. Terminating the call immediately like you did is really  all you can do.  If you find comfort at the church it’s understandable that you don’t want him to steal that from you.  And you’re right, you’ll be being spied upon no matter what.  Eliminating one place won’t help much.  Honestly if it wasn’t church it would be something else.  

Can you maybe mention the conversation to the priest and how much it upset the kids to be being spied upon? Don’t accuse him,  just make him deal with the discomfort, if if was him, act a little confused and shocked.  Tell him the children are uncomfortable with the surveillance, maybe even ask for help in a non committal way.  It might be a little passive aggressive but sometimes that’s the best way to do things.  It might remind him that his gossiping is hurting children.  

Edited January 24 by Heartstrings

[Katy]

Not incoherent at all. Completely rational. 

[Faith-manor]

I totally get that, Llama. Letting him steal one more thing from you is beyond imagination.

I do think behavioral modification could work. Set exceptionally deep boundaries on what he can and cannot say and ask for every phone call, and hang up the very second he crosses the line. Every time. Maybe if it happens often enough, he will get tired of being shut off and cool down. Then again, maybe not. Either way you and the kids do not have to listen to his triggering drivel, and abusive, manipulative accusations.

Many hugs!!

[Murphy101]

On 1/21/2024 at 9:00 PM, Drama Llama said:

I am pretty sure that even though I haven't sought a divorce or an annulment, my priest thinks the separation is a sin on my part.  

 

On 1/21/2024 at 8:56 PM, Drama Llama said:

I think there's a very good chance that the priest is the spy.  

In every community people talk about people in the community. Doesn’t matter what the community is. Church, school, work, neighborhood, extended family…

I think it might be helpful to view it in that light? Idk. Yeah they may be spies too. But that’s their wasted time, doesn’t have to be yours.

As for the priest.  Even if what you have done is a sin - so what?  I mean yes that’s not good but also every parishioner is a sinner that the priest is called to shepherd.  That’s literally his job. Never has a shepherd managed to badmouth a sinner into sainthood.

Sadly there are still some priests that think even if your Dh beats the crap out of you - it’s a sin to leave. They are wrong but wrong people be wrong like that.  Report them higher up the chain. 

Can you go to another parish? You said the church was a big part of your children’s lives and they seem to miss it and want to return to being involved. Who specifically was a part of that? A beloved youth minister for example?  Can you reach out to that person in private and just lay the cards out about your situation and what you need for your kids?  While a priest is important they tend to get new assignments somewhat regularly and the staff might be the key to everything for you.  

This makes me so sad for you and your kids.  I will pray hard that you and your kids find home in the church. 

I deeply respect your efforts to keep the children in the faith and the church. It’s hard to do the right thing.  And you have so much that’s hard already. I’ll be praying you have good friends/community who will help you carry this cross. You aren’t meant to do it alone. Christ didn’t carry his alone either.

[Drama Llama]

1 hour ago, Heartstrings said:

 It might remind him that his gossiping is hurting children.  

I don't think he sees it as gossiping.

When my middle kid was in ICU out of state, and DH and I didn't get home to our other boys for almost 7 weeks, our priest reached out every few days.  He let us initiate phone calls, but he sent regular texts that might have been a photo of our kids playing at recess or in a CYO game, or a note that the choir sounded really good, and he could tell that oldest loved to sing, or "I know they miss you but I can tell their grandfather is taking good care of them" or something.  

He hears, for the most part, one side, because he's DH's confidant and confessor which makes him not mine.  I think he thinks I have overreacted, and hopes we'll reconcile, and in the meantime he's sending reassurances to their Dad that they are growing and attending church. 

I'm sure he texts when the boys come to his church, telling their Dad that they've grown, or that they were polite when they greeted him after, or whatever.  I think he means it as a kindness.  And if he left out information about whether I attended too, and if DH didn't mention it to the boys,  I could live with that.  But there is this constant need for DH to know where I am, and who I am with, and what I am up to, that is really unhealthy and intrusive.  I take my marriage vows seriously.  I am not going to break them.  But he needs to trust me to do that, because what I do with my time is my business.  He has lost the right to monitor that.  It happens that this day I was home with a sleepy child, but if I chose to go visit my mom, or to attend a work conference, or if I was sick and contagious and decided not to attend that would be my choice as well.  Because we are separated, which means separate.