Mass shooting in Maine

[Carrie12345]

4 hours ago, Kanin said:

Schools are closed here. About an hour away from Lewiston. Apparently we're back to school tomorrow whether they catch the guy or not. 

It’s such a tough call. The manhunt in our area lasted over a month. I don’t recall how long schools were closed, but they really couldn’t wait until he was found.

It’s all awful.

[MEmama]

We've been watching the flight radar and a little while ago 3 helicopters left Lewiston toward Boston. I assume they are transporting more patients to Mass General 😞 

[historically accurate]

19 hours ago, pinball said:

I thought therapists have a duty to warn and can break confidentiality if someone threatens to harm another person or presents a danger to self or others

That is true. They then send them to the psych hospital where they receive treatment. 

[Edited for privacy]

 

Edited October 27, 2023 by historically accurate

[Eos]

We drove through the area yesterday on our way south.  I don't often cry over big social ills but I felt a sting for this.  Maine is such a small state - people-wise - that it doesn't surprise me at all that you have a personal knowledge connection @MEmama, it often feels like there are only about three degrees of separation throughout the state.  So tragic, so predictable, so preventable in an alternate universe.  Holding everyone affected in the Light today.

Edited October 26, 2023 by Eos

[Heartstrings]

A lot of the reporting is making it sound like he was referred to the mental hospital by his Army superiors.  I can’t tell if they mean that or if it’s just imprecise language.  If that’s the case, then the Army already knew about his issues.  

[TheReader]

1 hour ago, mommyoffive said:

  It is so sad to see more and more boardies with close ties to mass shootings in their lives.   

This just really hits me, every time. In my "real life" I personally know right off the top of my head 3 people who work/attend school at places where events like this happened (thankfully, all 3 were not present day-of).  In my "online life" the list grows. 

scary things like this, we all try to comfort ourselves with "....but it won't happen to me..." -- that gets So.Much.Harder. when it does happen to people you know. 

A million hugs to our Maine boardies. Having the guy still at large has to be absolutely terrifying. 

[Kanin]

2 hours ago, MEmama said:

Ugh, helicopter over town. My nerves are frayed

I bet! I'm so sorry 😞 

[Ting Tang]

I think these types of mass shootings have occurred near most of our homes at this point in time.   Yes, people die from gunfire daily, but these types of shootings tend to shock us more.  We think we are "safer" by living in certain areas over others, though life is no more precious in one place than it is in another.  Well, there are always warning signs, but nobody heeds the warnings, so that's that.  We will just have to live with it.  There was no good guy with a gun.  Just a bad guy.  With some excellent training in how to use one.  

[Idalou]

No surprises here, if true, concerning who they shooter liked, hated or retweeted.

Sorry, I took down the link not knowing if its was correct for this thread.

Edited October 26, 2023 by Idalou

[KSera]

5 minutes ago, Ting Tang said:

There was no good guy with a gun.

 The "Good guy with a gun" stopping a tragedy is rare and the myth of such leads more often to more violence, not less.

 

12 minutes ago, Ting Tang said:

there are always warning signs, but nobody heeds the warnings

It goes beyond that, in that gun advocates actively work against laws that would allow anything to be done about the warning signs. If there are no laws in place to do so, there is no way to "heed the warnings."

[Pam in CT]

6 minutes ago, KSera said:

...If there are no laws in place to do so, there is no way to "heed the warnings."

This.

 

I know it's a trope, that "we just need to enforce the laws we have."  But every time one of these massacres occur, the particulars of that state / that perpetrator / that case makes clear: the laws aren't there. The enforcement mechanisms aren't there. The gun sales data, the background check data, the tracking data tools aren't there.  The details are weedy and wonky and very state-specific and dull, but it.simply.is.not.true that LE today has the legal or practical tools to "heed the warnings" even when they receive such warnings and even when they have the resources and inclination to heed them.

 

As I said upthread, this is NOT one of the policy areas that drives me to the brink of despair, because I have actually seen the difference in hearts-and-minds and in policy that real mobilization and sustained effort can effect at the state level; and I have come to appreciate that the state level is where change in this area must start.

But it starts with putting aside what we think we know about what existing common sense rules "should" be in place and what LE of good faith "should" be able to do in the face of clear warning signs. Giffords has a very good easily searchable database of what "common sense" provisions (like, locking your weapon if there are toddlers or folks with known history of mental illness in your house; or provision to remove firearms following restraining orders due to domestic violence) exist in different states. The information is easy to find.

[MEmama]

22 minutes ago, Ting Tang said:

There was no good guy with a gun.  Just a bad guy. 

THIS, exactly.
 

Where were the mythical good guys? I know Lewiston pretty well, if there is is place in this open carry state where there are definitely people packing, a bowling alley in Lewiston would definitely be high on the list. There's zero chance no one else had a gun on them and zero chance they weren't a "good guy". And yet. And why do they not kill the bastard? Because all the reasons--it's chaotic, it would be impossible to get a clear shot, they are indeed good guys and thus protecting their children and friends....Because good guy vs bad guy is lie that wannabe cowboys tell themselves exists, until it's their turn and reality doesn't resemble the fantasy in their heads.

[Heartstrings]

I wish we could take what everyone seems to think the laws are and make those the actual laws. I think most people think the laws are stricter than they actually are, that medical professionals can do more, that cops can do more.  I think that would be a great start.  

[MEmama]

1 minute ago, Heartstrings said:

I wish we could take what everyone seems to think the laws are and make those the actual laws. I think most people think the laws are stricter than they actually are, that medical professionals can do more, that cops can do more.  I think that would be a great start.  

I think people tell themselves lies so they don't have to face the truth. The truth about their favorite sports team political party, the truth about how they vote, the truth about how their single issues affect real people. It's easier to pretend than to learn, to dig in than do the work of opening your mind to the possibility you were just wrong. Fantasy is a hell of a drug.

[Idalou]

If what ABC is reporting is true, he may have been looking for a girlfriend that recently broke up with him. Of course we have no news about him re domestic violence, but it does make me think of the coming case the SC will be hearing next month

https://www.americanprogress.org/article/the-supreme-court-case-united-states-v-rahimi-underscores-the-ugly-truth-about-originalism-and-women/

Edited October 26, 2023 by Idalou

[pgr]

4 hours ago, MEmama said:

We've been watching the flight radar and a little while ago 3 helicopters left Lewiston toward Boston. I assume they are transporting more patients to Mass General 😞 

So glad our Maine boardies are OK, and thankful my UMaine freshman's classes were cancelled today. 

Where can I find helicopter flight radar? We've been hearing helicopters most of the day (we're in the Bangor area) and it's truly unnerving. He could be anywhere by now.

[MEmama]

5 minutes ago, pgr said:

So glad our Maine boardies are OK, and thankful my UMaine freshman's classes were cancelled today. 

Where can I find helicopter flight radar? We've been hearing helicopters most of the day (we're in the Bangor area) and it's truly unnerving. He could be anywhere by now.

https://www.flightradar24.com. Warning--it's totally addictive.

Unnerving is right. I've been following the Portland Press live updates all day, and it's getting weirder. 

Stay safe--despite the warm spell this won't be the weekend to go out hiking, I'm afraid 😞 
 

 

 

[Kassia]

Police have surrounded a house in Bowdoin - might be the residence of the shooter's family?  

[Eos]

The BDN has unpaywalled its coverage and says that LE is speaking to him at his or his family's home, telling him to come out.  https://www.bangordailynews.com/2023/10/26/politics/police-descend-home-close-alleged-maine-mass-shooter-lives/

 

 

Edited October 26, 2023 by Eos

[MEmama]

11 minutes ago, Kassia said:

Police have surrounded a house in Bowdoin - might be the residence of the shooter's family?  

It seems to be part of his family's compound

11 minutes ago, Eos said:

The BDN has unpaywalled its coverage and says that LE is speaking to him at his or his family's home, telling him to come out.  https://www.bangordailynews.com/2023/10/26/politics/police-descend-home-close-alleged-maine-mass-shooter-lives/

 

 

We are watching channel 6, they are doing a good job on reporting. They did command him to come out, but it seems there hasn't been a response

[Eos]

1 minute ago, MEmama said:

It seems to be part of his family's compound

We are watching channel 6, they are doing a good job on reporting. They did command him to come out, but it seems there hasn't been a response

I pray his wife is not there with him.

[MEmama]

5 minutes ago, Eos said:

I pray his wife is not there with him.

Is he married? I did see he is divorced and had joint custody of their now adult kid. I'm not really following that aspect much though.

 

ugh. They just reported that he left a suicide note for his son. 😞 

Edited October 26, 2023 by MEmama

[Eos]

Just now, MEmama said:

Is he married? I did see he is divorced and had joint custody of their now adult kid. I'm not really following that aspect much though.

Or ex-wife.  I saw a reference to "wife" but don't know.

[pgr]

@MEmama thank you! Watching the live scene along with you all.

[Eos]

Everything about this is breaking my heart. I would be surprised if he is still alive.

[KSera]

1 hour ago, Eos said:

The BDN has unpaywalled its coverage and says that LE is speaking to him at his or his family's home, telling him to come out.  https://www.bangordailynews.com/2023/10/26/politics/police-descend-home-close-alleged-maine-mass-shooter-lives/

 

 

It sounds like they have done this at multiple properties today, so uncertain if they have any reason to think he’s actually at that one or not. 

[pgr]

It seems like this is the perfect storm of a person who is both very capable of killing and hiding, but also possibly actively psychotic. I kind of wish all of Maine would lock down. I'm not too happy about my kid going to class at UMaine Orono tomorrow, especially given the fact that the suspect is UMaine Orono alumnus.

@MEmama how do I filter for helicopters on the flight tracker? Is that a paid upgrade only or am I missing something? Ugh. Even in this age of information-instantly-at-our-fingertips, the not knowing and the wait are just awful. 

Stay safe ❤️ .

[Ting Tang]

5 hours ago, KSera said:

 The "Good guy with a gun" stopping a tragedy is rare and the myth of such leads more often to more violence, not less.

 

It goes beyond that, in that gun advocates actively work against laws that would allow anything to be done about the warning signs. If there are no laws in place to do so, there is no way to "heed the warnings."

Oh yeah. I meant nobody cares to implement what is necessary to heed the warnings. Kinda just throwing my hands up in the air and accepting this is the way it’s going to be. 😞

[Ting Tang]

4 hours ago, MEmama said:

THIS, exactly.
 

Where were the mythical good guys? I know Lewiston pretty well, if there is is place in this open carry state where there are definitely people packing, a bowling alley in Lewiston would definitely be high on the list. There's zero chance no one else had a gun on them and zero chance they weren't a "good guy". And yet. And why do they not kill the bastard? Because all the reasons--it's chaotic, it would be impossible to get a clear shot, they are indeed good guys and thus protecting their children and friends....Because good guy vs bad guy is lie that wannabe cowboys tell themselves exists, until it's their turn and reality doesn't resemble the fantasy in their heads.

I can understand for home protection, where you may not have full time police protection, but yes— the stars would have to align for this to actually play out. Sometimes it’s hard to fathom what humans can do to other humans in real life, even if they are hearing voices. 

[GoVanGogh]

My late FIL had bipolar and my MIL divorced him after 40 years of marriage due to late FIL threatening her with a gun during a manic state. FIL had to give up his guns per court order, which was basically on an honor system, with another relative overseeing it and verifying that known guns were accounted for. FIL then went across the state border and purchased more guns. No one knew that until FIL passed away a few years later and more guns were found in his possession. My extended in-law family was always opposed to gun regulations but are now vocal advocates for regulations. The shooting yesterday hits close to home for us, knowing my FIL’s longtime struggles with mental illness. My heart grieves for those affected by yet another horrible mass shooting. 

[Kassia]

5 hours ago, KSera said:

It sounds like they have done this at multiple properties today, so uncertain if they have any reason to think he’s actually at that one or not. 

I read that no one was there.  So disappointing.  

[Corraleno]

I wonder why they seem to have dropped the search for his boat? Apparently his car was found abandoned at a boat dock the night of the shooting and they were searching for a specific boat, but I haven't seen any followup on that. 

This is from CBS, but multiple sources have reported it:
"On Wednesday night, police said they were searching for a "vehicle of interest," a white Subaru Outback that was registered to Card. A law enforcement source told CBS News that the vehicle was found near a boat launch. ... The Coast Guard is now using a response vessel dispatched from Boothbay Harbor, Maine, and a fixed-wing aircraft from Cape Cod, Massachusetts, to search the waterways for Card, who is believed to be in a 15-foot lake boat. The search is focused on the northern shore of the waterway.

According to a Maine law enforcement bulletin seen by CBS News, Card has a 2022 Yamaha motorcycle and a 2019 Sea-Doo green boat registered in his name, in addition to the white Subaru. It's not clear if the Sea-Doo boat is the same boat that Card is believed to be in. Card's car was found near the Androscoggin River, which flows into the Kennebec River. Both rivers are more than 170 miles long and empty into the Gulf of Maine. Some of the gulf's shoreline is in Canada. Canada's Border Services Agency issued an "armed and dangerous" alert to its officers along the U.S.-Canada border on Thursday, according to the Canadian Press."

This map was in the NYT, it seems like the dock where his car was abandoned is closer to the locations of the shootings than the family home they were surrounding:

 

[MEmama]

8 hours ago, pgr said:

how do I filter for helicopters on the flight tracker? Is that a paid upgrade only or am I missing something? Ugh. Even in this age of information-instantly-at-our-fingertips, the not knowing and the wait are just awful. 

They should just show up. It might be possible for them to not make certain flights public; I know when AF1 was nearby recently it didn't show up on the radar. I'm just speculating that FBI, etc might be hidden. But generally they should just be there.

DS (transportation nerd if ever there was one) informed me that the flights over Lewiston the other night were the most watched *in the world*. Wild.

[pinball]

14 hours ago, Ting Tang said:

There was no good guy with a gun

One of the victim’s, Joe Walker, who died grabbed a knife and rushed towards the killer but was shot twice in the abdomen and died. The state police told his father this. The father said he wasn’t surprised his son would do that.

"No, not at all," Leroy Walker said. "I know he would do that to protect his people.“

https://www.wmur.com/article/lewiston-maine-shooting-victim-stories-102623/45657709#

XXXXXX

Me again:

If Joe Walker had a different weapon, the outcome could have been reversed.

 

 

 

Edited October 27, 2023 by pinball

[hshibley]

9 minutes ago, pinball said:

One of the victim’s, Joe Walker, who died grabbed a knife and rushed towards the killer but was shot twice in the abdomen and died. The state police told his father this. The father said he wasn’t surprised his son would do that.

"No, not at all," Leroy Walker said. "I know he would do that to protect his people.“

https://www.wmur.com/article/lewiston-maine-shooting-victim-stories-102623/45657709#

If Joe Walker had a different weapon, the outcome could have been reversed.

 

 

 

The last sentence is your opinion and not in the article. You should only carry a gun in public if you are willing to use it. The reality is that most people are not willing to kill some one regardless of the NRA fantasy narrative that we’re all walking around like John Wayne in a movie ready to kill at a moments notice. 

[pinball]

7 minutes ago, hshibley said:

The last sentence is your opinion and not in the article. You should only carry a gun in public if you are willing to use it. The reality is that most people are not willing to kill some one regardless of the NRA fantasy narrative that we’re all walking around like John Wayne in a movie ready to kill at a moments notice. 

THIS reality is a man died trying to save people with a knife. So this man was willing to cause grave harm, if not kill, the shooter.

He acted on a moment’s notice, and tragically died being a hero.

[Eos]

1 minute ago, pinball said:

THIS reality is a man died trying to save people with a knife. So this man was willing to cause grave harm, if not kill, the shooter.

He acted on a moment’s notice, and tragically died being a hero.

I agree he died a hero.  His bestie also charged the shooter, carrying nothing with him.  As a Quaker, I don't think people should walk around ready at a moment's notice to kill others by carrying loaded guns and the mindset that they will kill when the time arises because I think the unspooled version of that ends with the possibility of mass shooting deaths.  As a Mainer, I know many many many people who own lots of guns who would leap into action to save others.  I wonder - on sort of a meta-level - if the basic human mentality to help others, especially children, is incompatible with the mental acuity it takes to load, aim, and shoot while processing the horror going on.

I don't want to argue about whether good guys with guns save people.  We can see that idea has yet to be proven.

[Lady Florida.]

3 hours ago, MEmama said:

They should just show up. It might be possible for them to not make certain flights public; I know when AF1 was nearby recently it didn't show up on the radar. I'm just speculating that FBI, etc might be hidden. But generally they should just be there.

We live near an AF base and sometimes military planes show up, sometimes they don't. We can tell when a plane or helicopter is clearly military but we can't always see it on Flight Radar.

Edited October 27, 2023 by Lady Florida.
edited autocorrect issue but was already quoted ugh

[MercyA]

Nice summation. 😞

[MercyA]

Also among those killed: a 76-year-old youth bowling coach who reportedly died trying to protect the children in his care and three members of the deaf community who were competing in a corn hole contest. 😞 

[MEmama]

5 hours ago, Corraleno said:

I wonder why they seem to have dropped the search for his boat? Apparently his car was found abandoned at a boat dock the night of the shooting and they were searching for a specific boat, but I haven't seen any followup on that. 

This is from CBS, but multiple sources have reported it:
"On Wednesday night, police said they were searching for a "vehicle of interest," a white Subaru Outback that was registered to Card. A law enforcement source told CBS News that the vehicle was found near a boat launch. ... The Coast Guard is now using a response vessel dispatched from Boothbay Harbor, Maine, and a fixed-wing aircraft from Cape Cod, Massachusetts, to search the waterways for Card, who is believed to be in a 15-foot lake boat. The search is focused on the northern shore of the waterway.

According to a Maine law enforcement bulletin seen by CBS News, Card has a 2022 Yamaha motorcycle and a 2019 Sea-Doo green boat registered in his name, in addition to the white Subaru. It's not clear if the Sea-Doo boat is the same boat that Card is believed to be in. Card's car was found near the Androscoggin River, which flows into the Kennebec River. Both rivers are more than 170 miles long and empty into the Gulf of Maine. Some of the gulf's shoreline is in Canada. Canada's Border Services Agency issued an "armed and dangerous" alert to its officers along the U.S.-Canada border on Thursday, according to the Canadian Press."

This map was in the NYT, it seems like the dock where his car was abandoned is closer to the locations of the shootings than the family home they were surrounding:

 

Law enforcement isn't releasing many details at all. I think it's the right approach--the last thing they need is to keep an eye on a bunch of wannabe vigilantes swarming the woods and waterways in our area. OTOH it's awfully anxiety inducing not having any sense of what's going on. They do seem to be following up on every lead though; I can't imagine the effort and manpower that goes into something like this.

The boat launch in Lisbon Falls is just down the road from Lewiston a few miles. It doesn't make a lot of sense for him to take a boat from there because there are a number of dams on the river; it doesn't seem like he'd get far. The Androscoggin and Kennebec are big rivers but not wild; it would be hard to go far unnoticed and again, there are obstacles. 
 

I've read he has a motorcycle registered in his name which to me sounds more concerning. If that were his getaway vehicle he could go anywhere unnoticed if he wears a helmet. It's unlikely he'll be able to get across the Canadian border as they are on high alert (Maine shares 18 border crossings with New Brunswick and 6 or 7 with Quebec). 
 

Idk. I just want this part over. I'm grateful for all the brave, knowledgeable people coordinating and executing the search. It must be overwhelming.

[MEmama]

10 minutes ago, MercyA said:

Nice summation. 😞

Well that's damning now isn't it?
 

(*listening for the excuses in 3...2...1)

[MEmama]

32 minutes ago, Lady Florida. said:

We live near an AF base and sometimes military planes show up, sometimes they don't. We can tell when a plane or helicopter is purely military but we can't always see it on Flight Radar.

Yep, I'm just reading that helicopters are flying low in Portland and not showing on the radar. It makes sense to me to not have the public be able to follow *everything* in some situations.

[Kanin]

1 hour ago, pinball said:

One of the victim’s, Joe Walker, who died grabbed a knife and rushed towards the killer but was shot twice in the abdomen and died. The state police told his father this. The father said he wasn’t surprised his son would do that.

"No, not at all," Leroy Walker said. "I know he would do that to protect his people.“

https://www.wmur.com/article/lewiston-maine-shooting-victim-stories-102623/45657709#

XXXXXX

Me again:

If Joe Walker had a different weapon, the outcome could have been reversed.

 

 

 

If the bad guy had had a less powerful gun, things would have been different, too.

[pgr]

Thank you for the info about flight tracker. It's not like I can "help"... it's so hard to listen to them and feel helpless. They were circling above us when we went to close up our coop last night and started back at 5AM. We're not even in the lockdown area. At the very least, it's reassuring to know there is a huge team out there, searching. 

 

[MEmama]

Wow, that's crazy they are searching way up there. It feels like the entire state is collectively holding our breath.

[pgr]

1 minute ago, Kanin said:

If the bad guy had had a less powerful gun, things would have been different, too.

Amen to this!

It also would have helped if he hadn't been well trained, but that's obviously not not true in most other cases.
 

[pgr]

6 minutes ago, MEmama said:

Wow, that's crazy they are searching way up there. It feels like the entire state is collectively holding our breath.

I know. I'm waiting for my daughter and husband to come home safely at the end of the day. Stay safe ❤️ .

[Starr]

Thinking of all of you in Maine. Words aren’t adequate. 

[MEmama]

Just now, pgr said:

I know. I'm waiting for my daughter and husband to come home safely at the end of the day. Stay safe ❤️ .

Ugh, I hate they had class today. 😞 The schools here are all still closed. I can't imagine anyone being  able to concentrate.

I'm trying to decide if I should run an errand. I'm out of meds and logically I know the guy is unlikely to go into the shop but also it's just a few miles from where his car was found so...