Curious case of Natalia Grace?

[Farrar]

Did this get discussed here yet? It's a "documentary" series that was on ID and Max (formerly HBOMax). It's basically trashy TV (and they give the adoptive father way too much time to air out his drama), but holy cow, what a weird, tragic story.

In a nutshell - family with 3 bio kids adopted a daughter, age 6, with a very particular type of dwarfism, from Ukraine. And then became convinced she was an adult con artist who was not actually a child. They had her re-aged legally and then abandoned her. She may also have threatened them (or not). There's a lot of evidence that they abused her in various ways. Trigger warning that there are hints that CSA may have occurred, but it's not the focus of the show.

There's a homeschool tie in that's very odd. The oldest son was homeschooled (maybe the other kids too?) and also profoundly gifted. He had a somewhat well known in homeschool/gifted circles teen Ted Talk. And then he appears in the series. You would not believe it was the same person. His whole affect was depressed where it had once been peppy. Apparently he did finish his PhD in astrophysics not long ago, but it was still a very odd aspect of the series. He turned out to be have been pretty abused himself, but he only discusses it a little bit.

Edited June 11, 2023 by Farrar

[freesia]

I read about that yesterday.  It is so odd and confusing.  I haven't watch it, though. Did you come away from it feeling that she was telling the truth?

[Farrar]

Just now, freesia said:

I read about that yesterday.  It is so odd and confusing.  I haven't watch it, though. Did you come away from it feeling that she was telling the truth?

I mean, I'll just cut to the chase. There's zero chance in my mind that this girl was not a child that they abused. Even when the series was talking about all the odd things about her, I was like, but most of this can be explained by the fact that she was an older (age 6) adoptee who had likely been traumatized. And a few of the things were physical, but I felt like those needed a medical context that wasn't given, so without that I didn't feel like I could actually judge.

I don't know if I can recommend the show. I enjoy true crime type shows and I saw a bunch of people talking about it so I watched, but this was trashy even for me. I ended up skipping some parts. On the other hand, I was like, okay, I need to know how this comes out. A number of questions are left hanging and they imply they're making a second season to cover them. 

[HomeAgain]

I watched two episodes.  The justice system utterly failed her at every turn. 

 

And her adoptive father gave me the creeps. 

[Farrar]

The adoptive father gave me major narcissist vibes.

At one point he alleges that his now ex wife abused him. How, you ask? She refused to have s** with him whenever he wanted. Like, he said that.

And every single one of his interactions with the son, the super gifted one who had the TED Talk back in the day, were disturbingly weird.

[Faith-manor]

The adoptive father gives me the total creepster willies. I also think there is some truth to her being older than she was. This isn't that uncommon among children from some of the orphanages. They are underfed, and can be quite small for their age due to malnutrition, and that delays puberty. We know some folks this happened to. They were told their child was 5 by the adoption agency. He was estimated to be 10 by two different pediatricians and dentists, bone x rays and such. He had LOTS of medical issues due to his malnutrition. These folks are good people who have gotten him tons of help.

So I don't doubt that she may have been substantially older, not an adult but easily twice her adoptive age, and that can bring a host of issues. But I also think there is something seriously wrong with that dad and mom, and that she very likely was abused by them. I don't see the two possibilities as mutually exclusive.

It is a disturbing and confusing tale.

[Ting Tang]

Didn't this case inspire the movie Orphan?

[Terabith]

I recall reading about this in the news, I think?  A few years ago?  I thought the whole thing was very peculiar and the parents were so certain she was an adult but it didn't seem convincing to me, but I was like, "I certainly don't have enough information from this article to make a judgment."

[Mrs Tiggywinkle Again]

Before they adopted her, Kristina Barnett wrote a book about her oldest that I stumbled on when my oldest was a toddler—so ten years ago or so.  It was basically how she saved him from autism and he just turned out to be a genius.  At the time I was trying to manage a three year old with autistic signs and an IQ that was measuring in the top 0.5%, so the book was of especial interest to me.

i came away from it feeling…icky.  Like I just didn’t believe most of it.  She took all the credit for “curing” her child of autism while also simulataneously caring for her medically fragile second son and running a day care out of her home.  Yet the efforts she was describing were things that she’d have to spend eight or ten hours a day alone doing with her oldest. It just didn’t make sense to me at the time, who was also living some of it.

(I didn’t cure my child of autism and didn’t even try. He still can’t tie his shoes at 13, but he is a high honors student with a 99.5% overall grade average in seventh grade curriculum and is following me around today telling me all the details of what to look for in a dog if you’re going to breed Rottweilers. We don’t even know anyone who has a Rottweiler.)

[Innisfree]

32 minutes ago, Terabith said:

recall reading about this in the news, I think?  A few years ago?

I remember hearing about this, too. I don’t remember where, but it was a print source of some sort. I haven’t seen the tv show or anything recently.

[Lecka]

Oh, the family from The Spark!!!!!!

 

I have just started watching.

 

Iirc The Spark is a book where — they were told their son had autism, but they didn’t believe it, they knew they could help them on their own.  So they wrote a book about how good things worked out.

 

This is a famous book, it was a well-known autism book when it came out.
 

But I thought it was a little strange and had some strange vibes.  It’s been too long since I read it but it was like “we figured it out on our own, we didn’t listen to anybody, they wanted to do all these bad things but we believed in our son and knew how to take care of him and nobody else did.”   

[Lecka]

I just looked at the Amazon page for The Spark…. It’s the same book I was thinking of, it’s the same family.  
 

 

[Lecka]

Well, I quit watching.  

There’s a weird vibe, and in the opening they showed the dad sounding extremely paranoid, and showing extreme lack of emotional regulation.  It just seems like — he’s not a reliable narrator.  
 

I have mixed feelings about The Spark, too.  

You know how sometimes things can come across a little paranoid when people have to rescue their child from “the system,” but then you don’t know if they are a little paranoid, or if they have really had this experience?  I don’t know how to know.

 

But for the husband in this to have footage in the beginning sounding SO paranoid, it just comes across like maybe there’s just some paranoia there.

 

So it’s pretty disturbing.  
 

Edit:  and at the same time it was an inspirational book!!!!!  I think it inspired and encouraged a lot of people!  
 

 

Edited June 11, 2023 by Lecka

[Lecka]

Review on Amazon: Here's the thing. https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/review/0812993373/RZ17OX5SBWEHR?ref_=cm_sw_r_apin_dprv_SZZ4YA716TZRZSCHVDWY
 

I just happened to see this as one of the more recent Amazon reviews.  
 

I didn’t totally think this at the time, but I wondered some things, I guess, along these lines.  
 

If The Spark is in this tv show anymore, I would be interested in knowing what episode it’s in.  

[Innisfree]

This might be the article I read. Clearly it’s out of date. 

https://www.bbc.com/news/newsbeat-50319910

 

[MercyA]

I read about this a couple years ago and just read a few articles to refresh my memory.

I kept wondering about the bone scan and found this on BuzzFeed:

"Although Kristine told the Daily Mail that a bone density test conducted after Natalia’s 2010 adoption pegged her for 14, the probable cause affidavit reviewed by BuzzFeed News stated that Dr. Riggs at the Peyton Manning Children’s Hospital estimated that same year that she was approximately 8 years old...Medical records also show that in June 2012, a skeletal survey at that same hospital found Natalia to be around 11 years old, according to the affidavit."

And the Barretts abandoned her in an apartment in 2013, saying she was an adult??? I'm thankful neighbors realized something was off.

Edited June 11, 2023 by MercyA

[SKL]

I do remember this happening in the news some years ago.  It was controversial because, among other things, different health providers were pegging her age differently, and the adoptive parents chose the higher age to excuse emancipating / abandoning her.

I'm sure we'll never really know all the facts for sure.

I would assume that a documentary or whatever involving the parents would be unreliable.  I assume they are paying the involved individuals to make things as sensational as possible, to get more views.

I also think it's quite possible that the adoption agency (and other parties) lied about the girl's age, physical / mental / emotional health, and everything else.  Of course that doesn't justify mistreating the girl, however old she is.  I don't think they proved the girl was an adult, and I don't think they should have treated her as one.

That said, some traumatized / mentally ill kids are just about impossible to parent.  There aren't enough resources anywhere on earth to meet these kids' needs.  Not sure if there ever will be.

[DawnM]

I watched a couple of documentaries through the years about this case and there was a CSI or Law and Order that had a story line based on the real life story.   

I haven't watched anything new, I will have to see it.

We have an adopted child from overseas and boy do we feel like we have won the lottery, he is such a great kid.   I keep hearing horror stories and I can't imagine.   We even have a friend who was murdered by a boy adopted from overseas.   It is a tragic story.

[Farrar]

2 hours ago, Lecka said:

Well, I quit watching.  

There’s a weird vibe, and in the opening they showed the dad sounding extremely paranoid, and showing extreme lack of emotional regulation.  It just seems like — he’s not a reliable narrator.  

 

By the end, the show has basically become a critique where they've let him dig his own grave. But the path to get there is really creepy. 

[Farrar]

Also, for those who don't mind spoilers...

At least as the documentary presents it, they found the bio mom in Ukraine and the records of when she gave birth and DNA tested her and she was a 99.9% match to be the mom. So while it definitely happens that adoptees from abroad are sometimes aged down, that doesn't seem to have been the case here.

In other words, it's not a "we'll never know her age" situation. There's extremely strong evidence of her age. 

Edited June 11, 2023 by Farrar

[Lecka]

I hate to go too far in speculating, but between my impression from The Spark and seeing the dad where I guess they were previewing some of his personality, he comes across like he is mentally ill, and became paranoid against this little girl in a “mental illness” kind of way.  
 

I was just looking at press from The Spark and I think maybe they were doing press for The Spark in the same time period as leaving this girl in a hotel?

 

There are lots of videos from 2013 with the oldest son, on stuff like The Today Show (or similar).

 

Its the same time period my now-14yo was pretty newly diagnosed and I was reading the autism books that came out.

 

In this same general time period there was also a book called Horse Boy about a family who took their son on a spiritual journey to Mongolia.  That family actually seemed more likable (or something) to me, because it was more like — in a way their family was coming to terms with the diagnosis and things like that.  
 

 

 

 

[Lecka]

Well, now I think I might watch it some more.

 

I am troubled by mental illness in a different way lately, though.

 

I started to re-read Educated since the discussion about it, and it came across as disturbingly “mental illness” to me this time, and I hadn’t picked up on that at all (or in particular) when I read it before. 
 

Edit:  I have some reasons for this and I think I just need to take a pause from any content like this for a while?  But I don’t know.  

Edited June 11, 2023 by Lecka

[Jean in Newcastle]

2 hours ago, Lecka said:

Review on Amazon: Here's the thing. https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/review/0812993373/RZ17OX5SBWEHR?ref_=cm_sw_r_apin_dprv_SZZ4YA716TZRZSCHVDWY
 

I just happened to see this as one of the more recent Amazon reviews.  
 

I didn’t totally think this at the time, but I wondered some things, I guess, along these lines.  
 

If The Spark is in this tv show anymore, I would be interested in knowing what episode it’s in.  

Am I reading this review correctly to say that because the son’s language was advanced , he no longer had autism?  My extremely gifted but autistic son was very verbal (first multisyllabic word at 8 months, full sentences before age 2..) but that didn’t mean that he wasn’t autistic. 

[Farrar]

I didn't realize that premise of The Spark was that they cured the kid's autism. That should have been a massive red flag in giving them a kid with special needs. Like, yes, some people who are neurodiverse can be educated in such a way that their neurodiversity is masked to the outside world and they appear "cured." But you can't cure a permanent, genetic physical disability like this girl had. Now I'm wondering if they went into it thinking they could. Maybe not intentionally, but their expectations about her were really way, way off. And the limited views of the oldest son seemed to be really disturbing as well. Like, I'm sure he's incredibly bright. But at what cost did they get him there. The timeline of him doing the TED Talk and heading off to college overlapping with then abandoning Natalia wasn't fully explored, but that was particularly wild to me.

And yes, mental illness. Majorly. From both the parents from what I could see.

[Lecka]

The book The Spark is very “Jenny McCarthy era” as I think of it.  

I think it’s very likely it hasn’t aged well.

 

It has been too long since I’ve read it to be sure, but the book is about curing autism, and the review I shared is saying “maybe he wasn’t properly diagnosed in the first place.”  Or that’s my impression.

 

 

 

[bookbard]

I loved The Spark - but yes I was kind of wondering how she managed to do everything all at once in the book. I did like the theme which was find your child's interests and support them. And no, there was no 'I cured my child of autism', as far as I remember, more that you shouldn't have to stop supporting their interests because they have autism. 

I don't remember a single thing about the father in the book though. 

I can't get my head around the horror of adopting a child from overseas and then abandoning them in a foreign land, but I have heard it has happened frequently in the US. I hope the documentary does look at the whole international adoption issue - there are some massive issues about taking a child from their own country and culture. I like the fact that the UN now is supporting foster care in their own country rather than orphanages and international adoptions.

 

[DawnM]

3 minutes ago, bookbard said:

I loved The Spark - but yes I was kind of wondering how she managed to do everything all at once in the book. I did like the theme which was find your child's interests and support them. And no, there was no 'I cured my child of autism', as far as I remember, more that you shouldn't have to stop supporting their interests because they have autism. 

I don't remember a single thing about the father in the book though. 

I can't get my head around the horror of adopting a child from overseas and then abandoning them in a foreign land, but I have heard it has happened frequently in the US. I hope the documentary does look at the whole international adoption issue - there are some massive issues about taking a child from their own country and culture. I like the fact that the UN now is supporting foster care in their own country rather than orphanages and international adoptions.

 

Yes, it is horrible.   Dh had a co-worker who relinquished an adoption.   I didn't feel the girl acted that horribly, but I wasn't actually in the home with her, so I am sure there is more to the story.   

My son also has a friend who at one time talked about his sister from another country (I am not sure which country but I think it was Russia), and all of a sudden, the girl was gone and no one mentioned her again.   My son said his friends mentioned issues but didn't elaborate and never said what happened.   I am guessing the parents told him not to say anything.

Some of these kids come with so many concerns.   

 

[Lecka]

I haven’t read The Spark since it came out, I think I might not be remembering it really well!!!!!!

[Farrar]

I think of some really hard adoption situations I’ve known. I feel like there’s more awareness than there used to be about the responsibility and the role of adoptive parents. But maybe not in all quarters… 

[Not_a_Number]

3 hours ago, Farrar said:

Also, for those who don't mind spoilers...

At least as the documentary presents it, they found the bio mom in Ukraine and the records of when she gave birth and DNA tested her and she was a 99.9% match to be the mom. So while it definitely happens that adoptees from abroad are sometimes aged down, that doesn't seem to have been the case here.

In other words, it's not a "we'll never know her age" situation. There's extremely strong evidence of her age. 

So she was actually 6 years old? 

(I haven't watched this, but this thread has made me very interested in the story. What a sad story.) 

[Lecka]

https://www.indystar.com/story/news/local/hamilton-county/2013/09/18/college-in-canada-is-next-step-for-westfield-boy-genius-jacob-barnett-family/2834181/
 

In this, the whole family moves to Ontario so the oldest son can attend a special college program, in 2013.  There’s no mention of the adopted girl.  They are giving away and selling their possessions and moving out of Indiana.  

 

In this article, it has the older son saying some very positive things about autism, that I think sound good.  I think I have misremembered the book.  

[Farrar]

14 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

So she was actually 6 years old? 

(I haven't watched this, but this thread has made me very interested in the story. What a sad story.) 

When adopted, yes. When they abandoned her, she was more like 9 or 10.

[SKL]

10 hours ago, Farrar said:

When adopted, yes. When they abandoned her, she was more like 9 or 10.

The birth certificate could still have had a false date on it.  But based on the birth mom's age, they are sure Natalia was a child when they re-aged her to 22 and when they sent her to live alone.

To be fair, I don't think the adoptive parents had the birth mom age/DNA info when they made that decision.  And I assume they have medical records to back up their claims of her being well into puberty when she was adopted.  I assume there are medical records of whatever went down re mental health care.

One thing that I find disturbing is the way nobody seems the least bit concerned about this girl's privacy.  The level of intimate details that are out in public is nuts IMO.

[Farrar]

30 minutes ago, SKL said:

The birth certificate could still have had a false date on it.  But based on the birth mom's age, they are sure Natalia was a child when they re-aged her to 22 and when they sent her to live alone.

To be fair, I don't think the adoptive parents had the birth mom age/DNA info when they made that decision.  And I assume they have medical records to back up their claims of her being well into puberty when she was adopted.  I assume there are medical records of whatever went down re mental health care.

One thing that I find disturbing is the way nobody seems the least bit concerned about this girl's privacy.  The level of intimate details that are out in public is nuts IMO.

It could, but for Natalia to have been the age they put her down as, the birth mom would have given birth at age 10, which is highly unlikely to say the least. Plus, the birth mom had other kids and there were hospital records.

At least according to the documentary, there were apparently physicians (or a physician -- I wasn't totally clear) who testified that she might need to be re-aged, but then the judge was the one who ultimately decided and picked the age, which isn't medical at all.

I know the adoptive parents didn't have the DNA test at that point. But even their videos show them verbally abusing her and using some physical discipline (stay against the wall) for a girl who was disabled. I don't really have any sympathy for them.

[SKL]

If she really was 6 at the time of the adoption, it's incredibly unusual that she had a mouth full of adult teeth as well as very early puberty.  (Unless those "facts" were fabricated.)  It is also pretty odd that she had no foreign accent and could both read and speak English very fluently, if she really came from Ukraine so recently.

My guess, without having solid evidence, is that the truth is probably somewhere in-between.

I always believed she was a child when abandoned and that she was mistreated.  Seeing some of the videos convinced me further of mistreatment.  The "parents" were creeps.  But they were also between a rock and a hard place.  Society doesn't provide a good solution to severe attachment disorders such as this girl apparently had.  This case aside, there are real life cases of children trying to kill their parents and siblings, and the available "solutions" don't cut it.

[saraha]

Nvm. Agree that some parents aren’t adequately prepared for foreign adoptions and agree that there are not good resources for families that find themselves 

Edited June 12, 2023 by saraha

[Lecka]

They showed a picture of her when she entered the country with baby teeth, from her paperwork.

 

The adoptive dad thinks it’s a fake picture, though.

 

So he’s still saying “she had adult teeth” despite the picture showing baby teeth.  But, it’s also possible that what he’s saying is true.

 

But then there’s more details that make it seem like he is not correct in thinking it’s a fake picture.

 

I haven’t watched to the end, but it’s gotten incredibly disturbing.  
 

I definitely have watched with an interest from The Spark, and….. things happening in this tv show, with the timeline of their public life promoting The Spark are so disturbing.

 

It really seems like the boy from The Spark was just….. ugh.  Put into horrible situations.

 

I think this tv show is one where they are giving false leads a little bit, though maybe to show how some things would have seemed believable at the time.  
 

Some of the strange way the older son is coming across in the first episode, now that I’m further along, I’m feeling like — “okay, maybe x is why he’s coming across this way.”  
 

At the point I’ve watched to in the show, it really does seem like her birth date was correct and the family had it changed for either weird or self-serving reasons.  
 

Edit:  and if I saw this correctly, the adoptive dad repeatedly says that a police officer told they x, y, z.  Well, he has died.  The show finds an email he wrote for the police department saying he thinks the little girl is — not actually an adult.  That part was confusing to me though, I’m not sure.  

Edited June 12, 2023 by Lecka

[maize]

14 hours ago, bookbard said:

I like the fact that the UN now is supporting foster care in their own country rather than orphanages and international adoptions.

 

Adoption of older kids especially really does seem so fraught with potential complications and unknowns. It's a problem with foster system adoptions too. There's just so much trauma in the kids' past. Few parents could be truly prepared for how impacted some of these kids' brains and behavior are by what they have been through.

It's heartbreaking because there seem to be no good solutions anywhere for the kids who have it the hardest. 

The people I know who personally who adopted internationally brought home infants under age 1; those kids are well attached to their parents and siblings and doing well. I think the kids that develop attachment disorders even among older adoptees are a small minority, but the chaos and family stress and trauma that minority of kids can engender is huge. I wouldn't dare try adopting an older kid after some of the stories I am familiar with.

None if which is about this case specifically,  which seems unusually complicated and weird. If significant mental health issues/paranoia were at play for the parents there could be no rationality anywhere in the story.

I can't believe a judge could randomly re-assign a person's age like that! That's the bit that us most astonishing to me. I feel like there was major bias at play there, against a disabled foreignor.

[Lecka]

Really this is a show that has gotten a lot stranger than I expected that it would from watching the first episode.  I have thought that (at minimum) the dad seemed to be totally untrustworthy (as far as trusting what he said to be true, or maybe trusting that he had the judgment to know if he was saying true things or not).

 

And it’s way beyond what I expected.  
 

But, it’s also a tv show and I do think they are doling out the interesting plot points for long enough to make it have mutuel episodes, too.  But there’s also just a lot to it, and the couple seem really believable in a lot of ways, so it does take time to make a case that they have built a castle or lies.

 

But it is worse that I was expecting, I guess is my takeaway.  It’s so sad.  

[Terabith]

I was well into puberty by age 6.  I had all of my adult teeth by age 8. 
 

So, what are the consequences for this family for abandoning a child?

[OH_Homeschooler]

21 hours ago, Farrar said:

I don't know if I can recommend the show. I enjoy true crime type shows and I saw a bunch of people talking about it so I watched, but this was trashy even for me. I ended up skipping some parts. On the other hand, I was like, okay, I need to know how this comes out. A number of questions are left hanging and they imply they're making a second season to cover them. 

The show was so annoying. I can't even begin to deal with the father. And they basically gave the neighbors an entire episode to whine about what an annoying neighbor she was. Well yes, she was a child with no life skills and no way to entertain herself all day long. But when I think more deeply about this show I get so mad and sad. This poor child was mistreated in so many ways. 

Edited June 12, 2023 by OH_Homeschooler

[Farrar]

2 hours ago, Terabith said:

I was well into puberty by age 6.  I had all of my adult teeth by age 8. 
 

So, what are the consequences for this family for abandoning a child?

There weren't any. The dad got off and they subsequently dropped the charges for the mom. All of that was basically because they'd been successful in re-aging her years before and the judge decided he categorically did not want to revisit that and refused to let them follow any line of questioning about that. It was really messed up.

[Farrar]

2 hours ago, OH_Homeschooler said:

The show was so annoying. I can't even begin to deal with the father. And they basically gave the neighbors an entire episode to whine about what an annoying neighbor she was. Well yes, she was a child with no life skills and no way to entertain herself all day long. But when I think more deeply about this show I get so mad and sad. This poor child was mistreated in so many ways. 

Right? Obviously they're going to sensationalize, but my personal taste with things like this is that they be a bit more investigative. They really raised a lot of questions that aren't questions anymore. Like, I can imagine being one of the neighbors (though, geez, I hope I wouldn't be as whiny as these neighbors), being told she was an adult and thinking she essentially had developmental delays and not questioning that and finding her difficult to deal with and assuming that she was getting supports but still finding her a little trying to deal with. It feels like by giving them this huge forum, they played into the idea that their complaints were reasonable, when actually they weren't. And probably most of them (maybe not the headless lady, but the rest of them) would have said, ooh, that puts everything in a different light if they'd just given them the evidence instead of trying to get them trash talk this poor kid.

[SKL]

Yeah it was weird with the independent living part.

I mean, she went in people's houses uninvited - that is not OK.  The rest of it just sounded like your neighbor is an adult with developmental issues.

I wonder if anyone called adult services to try to get her some services.  It seems that even if she was 22, she should have qualified for some help.  (But maybe not since her IQ is apparently on the high side.)

[OH_Homeschooler]

7 minutes ago, Farrar said:

Right? Obviously they're going to sensationalize, but my personal taste with things like this is that they be a bit more investigative. They really raised a lot of questions that aren't questions anymore. Like, I can imagine being one of the neighbors (though, geez, I hope I wouldn't be as whiny as these neighbors), being told she was an adult and thinking she essentially had developmental delays and not questioning that and finding her difficult to deal with and assuming that she was getting supports but still finding her a little trying to deal with. It feels like by giving them this huge forum, they played into the idea that their complaints were reasonable, when actually they weren't. And probably most of them (maybe not the headless lady, but the rest of them) would have said, ooh, that puts everything in a different light if they'd just given them the evidence instead of trying to get them trash talk this poor kid.

Yeah, I totally get that. I think they framed the whole thing as a question of whether she was an adult or a child until the final episode, and then the evidence was pretty clear that she was a child. And I would definitely be annoyed if I had a neighbor like that. But that is on the editors for including all those interviews with people who were not told the truth. There was plenty of actual content they could have covered instead. But you are correct that they were basically going for trash TV and not much else. Just more exploitation of an abused individual. 

[vonfirmath]

6 minutes ago, SKL said:

Yeah it was weird with the independent living part.

I mean, she went in people's houses uninvited - that is not OK.  The rest of it just sounded like your neighbor is an adult with developmental issues.

I wonder if anyone called adult services to try to get her some services.  It seems that even if she was 22, she should have qualified for some help.  (But maybe not since her IQ is apparently on the high side.)

But if she was only 10-12 and had not really been parented.. She may not know. We struggled with my son getting him to understand you could not do this.

 

[SKL]

3 minutes ago, vonfirmath said:

But if she was only 10-12 and had not really been parented.. She may not know. We struggled with my son getting him to understand you could not do this.

According to the neighbors, more than one of them had told her not to do that.  It sounds like she did not get it, or did not care.

Maybe she was actually hungry enough to steal food out of people's fridges.  Anything is possible.  But the neighbors would not have known that.

[Lecka]

Even with all that with those neighbors, somebody from there called somebody resulting in the CPS case being reopened, and that’s when the parents deleted the CPS officer’s number off her phone and moved her to the other town!!!!!!!!

[Farrar]

2 hours ago, SKL said:

According to the neighbors, more than one of them had told her not to do that.  It sounds like she did not get it, or did not care.

Maybe she was actually hungry enough to steal food out of people's fridges.  Anything is possible.  But the neighbors would not have known that.

But, again, she was a traumatized, abandoned 10 yo and there's evidence that she was not being properly fed. I would not expect a person in that situation to be able to be told something and then just follow those directions. 

Edited June 12, 2023 by Farrar

[ktgrok]

On 6/11/2023 at 1:59 PM, Mrs Tiggywinkle Again said:

 

(I didn’t cure my child of autism and didn’t even try. He still can’t tie his shoes at 13, but he is a high honors student with a 99.5% overall grade average in seventh grade curriculum and is following me around today telling me all the details of what to look for in a dog if you’re going to breed Rottweilers. We don’t even know anyone who has a Rottweiler.)

HA! At his age I read the AKC book of dog breeds obsessively so I totally get that! I also years ago went through a chicken phase...I could tell you how to kill and clean a chicken, how to feed them, and all aobut the different breeds...but I've never had a chicken or even spent any real time around a chicken.