It’s thanksgiving again with my mom

[prairiewindmomma]

Leave soon. End on a happy note. Six hours is well beyond what most rigid people can tolerate.

[saraha]

We’re home now. Not long after the last post mom started about taking the leftovers home etc so packed everything up. My sister was talking with the kids and mom was like “you guys need to take that ice cream home. I can’t have it” dh told her it would melt before we got home. She insisted, he insisted. A few minutes go by and she says we’ll you have to take it home, I can’t have it. Dh says it won’t make it, give it to one of your sisters. Nope they can’t have it either. Dh says then give it to your neighbor. I can’t it’s open you have to take it. Dh, nope, but I will bag it up and throw it away for you if you want. No! It’s a brand new carton! Dh-🤷🏼‍♀️ All right kids, time to go. And started loading up the car, so ended on a pretty good note overall as she hadn’t gotten totally worked up yet. I heard her say to my sister, well I guess you can have some ice cream, but I put all the leftover brownies in their bag. My sister just cracked up.

So I can’t remember if I told the guitar story. Well, I thought it was over…

There is a family that lives across the street from my mom. The youngest is a senior this year who I guess is going away on the fall. One Saturday before thanksgiving, he hauled all of his old toys and stuff out to the front yard and put a free sign out. Then sat in a lawn chair. Nice things like imaginext sets etc. He said he was leaving in the fall and wanted to give nice stuff to some moms who might not be able to give nice stuff to her kids for Christmas. My mom saw he had a kids electric guitar set up. I guess she called the house and no one answered so she called my cell. I was at work so didn’t answer it (this call right here is why I always answer now) she wanted to know if our youngest would like it. (That’s a nice thought) when she couldn’t get me, she decided to go over and get it anyway just in case, that’s how I know what he was doing, he told my mom he put it out for free so people who needed help could have some cool toys. My mom said she was taking the guitar, amp and stand for her grandson. 

In the mean time I get this funny feeling, so I call my mom back from work. It had been maybe 10 minutes since she called. She tells me about the kid and asks me if we could use it etc, but we had gotten our youngest a nice electric guitar for his birthday and we have several acoustic guitars around so thanks for thinking of him, but no thanks. She says We’ll I’ve already taken it. I said well take it back, he could give it to some other kid. She says she can’t she’d be too embarrassed. I’m like well, I’m not driving up an hour and a half for something we do t want and if you had waited like 10 minutes we could have talked about it. She says fine, if it’s not good enough for you I’ll just give it to good will. I said or you could just take it back and give it to the kid so he could give it away for free like he intended. She says not doing that. I say fine. 
 

Fast forward to Thanksgiving. We come in and she has this guitar set up in the doorway of the spare bedroom, so everyone has to walk past it to the bathroom. (She lives in a little house) I see it and I pull my two youngest aside and explain that grandma might try to talk them into taking this guitar. She means well but We don’t need it, don’t have room for it, and not to be mean or anything but it would not be an upgrade to anything we already have, it’s too small for even youngest da. If she says anything to you, tell her to ask me.

Sure enough, while we are eating she pulls each one aside and shows them the guitar and tells them to ask me if they can have it. They both say you better ask my mom. When we are leaving, she once again tries to get me to take it. I say no.

Today, dh and ds23 get to my moms 15 minutes before we do and 5 minutes after my sister gets there. I guess mom pulled dh into the spare room and tells him I won’t let the kids have that guitar but it’s nice and they should have it. Dh says we already have several guitars and this one is really too small for any of our kids. She asks him to look at it and figure out how to turn it on then and youngest can play with it while he’s here and then she will go donate it. Dh says it looks like it just needs new batteries. Mom says ok, I’ll get some when I go pick up the pizzas and you can put the batteries in. I don’t hear about any of this. It’s time to go get pizza and she asks us all to move our three cars around so she and one of the kids can go get the pizzas. I say that’s all right, I’ll drive and help carry the pizzas. Discussion ensues but mom finally says ok. On the way to get pizza, mom says we need to stop at the dollar store next to the pizza place, I’m like ok, cool. I go into the dollar store because at just that moment dd19 texts and says she forgot to bring her lactaid could I pick some up. I go do my thing and mom goes her way. We meet at the check out counter and she is shoving something into her purse after paying. The clerk says ma’am do you want a bag for your batteries? Mom says no amd hurriedly walks away. I start to wonder why she’s being weird. It’s none of my business what she buys and I wasn’t going to ask her and I just happened to walk up right behind her, not spying or anything. I pay and we walk next door to get the pizza. When we get back to her place I get dh off to the side and ask why we needed to go get batteries cause she was acting shady and he shook his head and told me what she had said about how I wouldn’t let the kids have it and couldn’t he just play on it (I’m sure in hopes that he would try to talk me into taking it home) we got busy after we got back with the pizzas and I think she forgot to give the batteries to dh so he never checked to see if it worked or anything and then she was so busy getting worked up about ice cream before we left that she didn’t mention the guitar again. So she has held on to this thing since the fall and has tried every possible way to get this thing to my house, except mailing of course, because she doesn’t trust the post office. 

[saraha]

3 hours ago, KSera said:

I’m so confused about her punishing your sister by not allowing her a brownie. Did I miss something and your sister is still a child?

Nope. My sister is 43

[saraha]

Oh, and I wasn’t trying to be a snob about the nacho dip, she can serve whatever she wants, she just can’t get mad if no one wants to eat it and stand there and gripe about buying it and no one eating it. 

[saraha]

5 hours ago, Indigo Blue said:

My mom has complained about Christmas in general for years. I just thought it was the general stress of the holidays, which I can understand. Then her complaining felt more personal and targeted, but I wasn’t sure. It was more focused on complaining about food, which we stopped doing at her house completely. Again, I understood and thought she’s not obligated to have food there. (To be clear, I helped with it all including clean up. We were not burdening  her). Still, when the food hassle stopped, she still complained about Christmas. Then I began to wonder what exactly she was stressing over, when there really was nothing to stress over. Many times before Christmas, she’d say to me “I don’t do Christmas.” “I’ll be glad when Christmas is over.” And “I hate Christmas.”

Then she’d ask when the boys would be home and when/if they would visit. Then she’d add “But eat before you come because there will be no food here.”

So we had breakfast one morning after Christmas, and drove an hour to her house. We stayed from 1:00 to 3:00. We were there 30 minutes, and she began to offer us taco soup! I had already told Dh how she was behaving, and it was just best to not eat there at all, even if she offered. So we visited during the hours we normally would have eaten lunch, but declined the soup. 
 

Before Christmas, she had set out two Christmas figurines on her front porch. Nothing more. During the visit, she commented that she had already taken down her Christmas decorations and declared that she was now done with Christmas. 
 

I just don’t get it. 
 

I don’t ask. I just try to keep things nice for the boys. 
 

Later, on the phone, she told me that no one had visited her on Christmas Day and that she sat and watched old movies and ate. She said she had the best Christmas ever. 
 

Forgot to add…..she unwrapped the one gift she had bought and wrapped that she did buy for a young toddler in the family. It was a Reborn doll. She had been talking about how “anatomically correct” it was and wanted to show me. So, in front of the whole family, she unwrapped the gift and showed me the baby, then pulled off the under garment to show how detailed it was “down there”. 
 

 

 

This sounds like my mom, down to unwrapping and undressing the doll! When we came in today the kids we’re all saying merry Christmas and happy new year as they came in the door and she was like No! Christmas is over, this is just a family get together. 

[Terabith]

I have to ask...you've got someone who is rigid, anxious, and probably not neurotypical.  When she gets upset about wanting you to take ice cream, or a guitar that is too small for your kids, why don't you just say thank you and toss the ice cream in a dumpster after you leave/ donate the guitar when you get home?  Why argue with her?  

[Grace Hopper]

5 hours ago, saraha said:

Omg she just stomped back over here and said “I told you to turn on the light because you are making yourself blind and not listening to me.” So I said “ so the answer is to be mean?” And she said yes. I said “ how’s that working for you?” And she responded the light is on isn’t it?”  I said “yeah, because you came over here and turned it on. How is being mean working for you?” And she said “just fine, the light is on and that is all that matters” I just shrugged and said “we’ll, if that’s all that matters, is you get your way, then yeah being mean probably works pretty well then.” 
She just waved her hand at me and walked away and now I’m hiding in the bathroom again.

And I can hear her in the kitchen handing out brownies that were supposed to be for after pizza and telling my sister now remember you dont get any. I might not come out of the bathroom. 

 

5 hours ago, freesia said:

Definitely give your sister a brownie !!! 😂 

 

4 hours ago, KSera said:

I’m so confused about her punishing your sister by not allowing her a brownie. Did I miss something and your sister is still a child?

Omg your sister is a grown ass adult!!!

I’m glad she laughed because seriously if I were her I’d have grabbed ALL the brownies and stuffed them down like Bruce Bogtrotter eating a giant chocolate cake while staring down your-mom-as-Miss-Trunchbull screaming the whole time. 

Edited December 31, 2022 by Grace Hopper

[saraha]

34 minutes ago, Terabith said:

I have to ask...you've got someone who is rigid, anxious, and probably not neurotypical.  When she gets upset about wanting you to take ice cream, or a guitar that is too small for your kids, why don't you just say thank you and toss the ice cream in a dumpster after you leave/ donate the guitar when you get home?  Why argue with her?  

I used to do that. For my entire adult life I have just done what she asks. I have hauled home junk she didn’t want but insisted that I have. I have had the distinction of being both the golden child and the black sheep. I have let her talk trash about me when it suits her, estrange us from all extended family, and try to put my sister and I against each other. I have watched her try to hijack my giving birth to my oldest. I was there when the emergency room nurses kicked her out of my sisters room for demanding they stop working on my sister and get her an orange juice because her blood sugar was getting a little low. I drove to a Walmart from her house with 4 little kids during a blizzard because she couldn’t possibly let us stay there. I let it all go to keep what little peace I could get.

Then last thanksgiving she got caught trying  to involve my youngest in a mean prank on my sister and then tried to blame my kids and pin the whole thing on them. She said they have been behind my mom being mean about thanksgiving to my sister this whole time and she was just going along with what MY KIDS wanted. I completely lost my 🤬, mom then tried to blame my sister because my sister told me she tried to blame the whole thing, 10 years, on the kids and when I called that out too she melodramatically canceled thanksgiving. Then two days later tried to have thanksgiving again but not invite my sister who God’s honest truth was completely innocent in the whole mess. At that time, I had had enough of her nonsense, triangulation, lies, manipulation, steam rolling, bullying, power plays and when she tried to throw my kids under the bus thinking my sister would be mad at them and not her and that my sister would actually believe her absolutely outrageous lie, I just quit. I absolutely refuse to humor her anymore. I know she has anxiety, probably because she cannot control me anymore and I have become unpredictable in her eyes. I also am pretty sure she is a narcissist who will try anything she can think of to get her way. I stopped her mid Karen at the pizza place because that kid did not deserve what he was about to get. I nicely said thanks for thinking of youngest but we can’t use it, and since you could get it under false pretenses, you can just as easily deal with it yourself.  So she tried to use my kids. Then when that didn’t work she waited a month and tried to go through my dh and lie to him to get what she wants. And I am just DONE. Up until last thanksgiving I would do anything just to keep my mother happy, but I was not about to let her use my children to deflect the consequences of her behavior and actions. 
 

I just can’t with that crap anymore. And the more she has to acknowledge she can not control me, the more anxious she is becoming. Our get togethers were set up so she could be queen and survey her family and all that they do for her and have everything the way she wants it no matter what they want (my dd21’s graduation party where she secretly canceled the food I ordered and reordered from where she wanted to get food that I was paying for, for example). Now she found out that if she wants to cancel thanksgiving and be all like that, that I am not going to cajole and pet her etc. and play her dumb games anymore and knowing that she is not in control anymore is what I am guessing is fueling  her anxiety. 
Not to mention that this year after my sister and I backed way off, she FAKED a cancer scare. Yup, she went around telling everyone she might have cancer. She told enough people around town that she might have cancer and that I didn’t seem to care that I had a cousin I haven’t talked to in over 10 years track me down on Facebook to tell me I need to do better by my mother. She 100% does not have cancer. I am dead certain because I called her doctor myself. Once that happened, all talk of cancer stopped. So yeah, I’m done with catering to her.

[fraidycat]

3 hours ago, Terabith said:

I have to ask...you've got someone who is rigid, anxious, and probably not neurotypical.  When she gets upset about wanting you to take ice cream, or a guitar that is too small for your kids, why don't you just say thank you and toss the ice cream in a dumpster after you leave/ donate the guitar when you get home?  Why argue with her?  

Because it is OK for people to set and hold their own boundaries.

[Faith-manor]

9 hours ago, Terabith said:

I have to ask...you've got someone who is rigid, anxious, and probably not neurotypical.  When she gets upset about wanting you to take ice cream, or a guitar that is too small for your kids, why don't you just say thank you and toss the ice cream in a dumpster after you leave/ donate the guitar when you get home?  Why argue with her?  

I have someone like this in my life. The reason you do not give in is because they then push the boundary further. This isn't about their anxiety, it is about the power struggle. They want to force you to do what they want, and if you give in on something like this, the next power struggle will be worse. It keeps amping up until the point of no return, and then you have to cut them out of your life or go nuts yourself. The only way to have a relationship is to establish firm, iron clad boundaries about literally everything. It is absolutely exhausting so it leads to spending very, very limited amounts of time with said person, and that time is spent in extremely limited circumstances.

Unfortunately, you can not give in on something that to outsiders seems to small. The onslaught and demands will escalate relentlessly. It took us two decades to get our relative to actually believe when we say no, stop trying to manipulate us and wear us down.

[Indigo Blue]

8 hours ago, saraha said:

She told enough people around town that she might have cancer and that I didn’t seem to care that I had a cousin I haven’t talked to in over 10 years track me down on Facebook to tell me I need to do better by my mother. 

All of your post is full of typical narcissistic behavior. But this is truly what makes it so hard to hold boundaries. You literally can be made to look like a horrible person at best or become completely estranged from them at worst. My mom does stuff like this if you get on her bad side. She’s never faked cancer, but she will tell her version of things and others will side with her. When she tells her version of how she was “wronged”, I can never be sure if any of it is truthful. I’m now certain I’ve been trashed many times as well. Before, I was so blind to this because I was in the fog about our entire relationship. 

She just spent her first Christmas ever alone with no one visiting her, except for my brother who lives there. I think, truly, she may have been hurting because golden granddaughter didn’t come. They got into a bad argument over the summer. Between that and all the complaining, she ended up almost alone. 

[Indigo Blue]

My mom has been so extremely pushy about other family members owning pets. It was relentless. I experienced this myself. She wouldn’t listen if you explained you did not want a pet at that time. She’d do this to parents in the family in front of their children. Someone (not me) who was pressured finally got a few pets. Then she trashed them behind their back because they weren’t keeping them inside. Didn’t put up a fence. Didn’t give them enough attention. The poor children. DIL is always throwing the dog out the back door and the children get upset. They can’t even have their dog inside. Horrible DIL. DIL hates dogs. She’s just awful. I agree about the proper care of animals, but not about not having enough sense to know when someone isn’t ready for a pet, it may not end well for the pet. Just being so overbearing that someone needs a pet.

I’d say no, and she’d just keep going about how we need a dog. Never, ever stopped. 
 

Here is the really crazy part. When I, myself, was a child, we weren’t allowed pets inside. I did just what her grandchildren did. I’d quietly get my little dog from outside and snuggle him in my bed. She’d walk in, scoop him up, and out the door he went. Same with my orange tabby cat. We had large, outside (expensive, too) dogs that had no fence and freely ran into the highway that we lived on. Three of them got ran over at different times. Once, a box of kittens died in an open box when left outside overnight during a bad storm. I’m not making that up. 
 

If these topics come up now, she rewrites a lot of it. One dog….she insists was always indoors. He never was. Ever. 
 

So, she roasted her DIL behind her back for doing the exact same things she once did. DIL also screamed at her children, except one who was her golden child. Mom did the same to us, but DIL was talked about constantly for it, and frequently put on angry displays of contempt for her right in front of DIL’s children. 
 

I’ve learned to say no and be firm if she is pushing something. From taking home a bag of oranges (that weren’t even hers to give away in the first place) that I don’t want to anything else. Everything with her is “the best, cutest, most delicious, most beautiful, thing I’ve ever seen in my life”. And then she wants you to agree, buy it, taste it, look where she’s pointing, or take it home to live with you. You have to say no. 
 

 

[kbutton]

11 hours ago, saraha said:

My sister was talking with the kids and mom was like “you guys need to take that ice cream home. I can’t have it” dh told her it would melt before we got home. She insisted, he insisted. A few minutes go by and she says we’ll you have to take it home, I can’t have it.

My MIL once had an epically mean performance over cheese. It started out kind of nice, and if she'd just said something like, "Hey, it looks like someone left a bunch of cheese, and I won't be able to use it all, would you like to take some home?" we'd have taken it. Instead we were blamed for bringing it, told it was ours, etc. I have a lot of food sensitivities, and I needed to make something to eat before leaving, and I had brought some cheese to use for that purpose. She insisted that I not use my own cheese but the cheese that she was upset about even though it wouldn't have worked for that purpose. It was crazy.

My MIL is a bit less toxic, so we can be a little more flexible, but it's variable.

10 hours ago, Terabith said:

I have to ask...you've got someone who is rigid, anxious, and probably not neurotypical.  When she gets upset about wanting you to take ice cream, or a guitar that is too small for your kids, why don't you just say thank you and toss the ice cream in a dumpster after you leave/ donate the guitar when you get home?  Why argue with her?  

It's Pandora's box. Like Faith said, the demands escalate, or in the case of my MIL, the demands intensify. Humoring her makes her do really strange stuff. In my MIL's case, she is a little narcissistic and a lot messed up in the head--her thinking patterns are seriously deranged. When my kids were little, she started buying hot dogs because that's what kids eat, right? She pretty much never voluntarily bought hot dogs before that when people were around. Sounds pretty neutral...except the kids were at the hot dogs are a major choking hazard stage. She would feed them large pieces of hot dogs that were not cut in half, and then she'd stare at them in case they were going to choke. Even more disturbing is finding out that when her kids were in school, she was volunteering as a lunch helper, and a kid choked and DIED on a hot dog in the lunchroom. She was traumatized. I am sure it was for real, but why in heck re-enact that with my kids in her kitchen? Prior to this kind of stuff, I thought she was weird and might have some outdated (but widely practiced in the day) ideas that were kind of scary about kids, but I had no idea she was idiotically dangerous. DH wasn't vigilant (DeNial is a powerful river), and I would have to shower, etc. when we were there (we used to stay for days, and that was never good enough), so it was dicey.

So, treating people like this like they are normal can go sideways in all kinds of unexpected ways. 

[saraha]

1 hour ago, Indigo Blue said:

If these topics come up now, she rewrites a lot of it. One dog….she insists was always indoors. He never was. Ever.

The rewriting. So much the rewriting. With the thanksgiving thing last year I watched her think through and rewrite in front of my face. It’s amazing. Dh says she speaks her truth into existence.

[saraha]

I had a crying jag before going to bed last night and I think between his family and mine he must have hit some kind of wall or something. He just quietly hugged me and said from now on, I am telling your mom how it is going to go. From now on I am providing the food if we get together and I will have the last word on anything. and honestly it might work because he is the only man in my little family now that mom and sister are divorced. He gets special treatment from my mom, just like my two sons do over their sisters.

Edited December 31, 2022 by saraha

[Indigo Blue]

1 hour ago, saraha said:

Dh says she speaks her truth into existence.

I was just thinking this very thing the other day. It seems she gets an idea or belief about someone’s motive, good or bad, and then somehow that becomes “truth”. She tells me her versions of things based on that. Now that she’s older, I can see it because she now sometimes forgets what thing she said before and can’t keep all her “truths” straight. So now there are discrepancies, but if I drill down on them, she will change that truth but she won’t be accountable for it herself. All of a sudden her source is “changing things”. 
 

It’s getting really bad, and the really scary part is I now do not know truth from lie/exaggeration. This could end up being a pretty serious predicament with bad consequences. 

[Indigo Blue]

Also, your husband is being awesome.

[Tanaqui]

It's good that you were able to laugh about this!

[Indigo Blue]

I subscribe to this channel and just watched this new video. It is one that I found very helpful, and I thought it might be helpful to you, too. 
 

 

[Shoeless]

12 hours ago, Faith-manor said:

I have someone like this in my life. The reason you do not give in is because they then push the boundary further. This isn't about their anxiety, it is about the power struggle. They want to force you to do what they want, and if you give in on something like this, the next power struggle will be worse. It keeps amping up until the point of no return, and then you have to cut them out of your life or go nuts yourself. The only way to have a relationship is to establish firm, iron clad boundaries about literally everything. It is absolutely exhausting so it leads to spending very, very limited amounts of time with said person, and that time is spent in extremely limited circumstances.

Unfortunately, you can not give in on something that to outsiders seems to small. The onslaught and demands will escalate relentlessly. It took us two decades to get our relative to actually believe when we say no, stop trying to manipulate us and wear us down.

Yep to all this. I have someone like this in my life. I cannot budge on anything or else it escalates. There's no "Oh, just throw them a bone and do this silly thing once", because then it becomes "Well, you did it once. Why won't you do it again?" It never, ever stops.  It's like a chess game, and they're thinking 5 moves ahead. They're thinking "If I can get her to take the ice cream, then I can get her to go to my choir rehearsal, and if I can get her to do that, then I can work on getting her back into music school, and then she can be the choir director for a church and then...and then..."

It's never about the ice cream.   

[Shoeless]

12 hours ago, Indigo Blue said:

All of your post is full of typical narcissistic behavior. But this is truly what makes it so hard to hold boundaries. You literally can be made to look like a horrible person at best or become completely estranged from them at worst. My mom does stuff like this if you get on her bad side. She’s never faked cancer, but she will tell her version of things and others will side with her. When she tells her version of how she was “wronged”, I can never be sure if any of it is truthful. I’m now certain I’ve been trashed many times as well. Before, I was so blind to this because I was in the fog about our entire relationship. 

I'm at a point with my difficult people that I no longer care if they tell everyone I'm horrid and mean.  "Oh, you think I'm terrible and mean? Then you should treat me very carefully and nicely because you never know when I might explode". 

It took a long, long time to get here, however. 

[saraha]

3 hours ago, MissLemon said:

I'm at a point with my difficult people that I no longer care if they tell everyone I'm horrid and mean.  "Oh, you think I'm terrible and mean? Then you should treat me very carefully and nicely because you never know when I might explode". 

It took a long, long time to get here, however. 

Yeah, I’m getting there. It used to bother me a lot but now I’m like, well, at least I don’t live in the same town as the people she talks to.

[YaelAldrich]

@saraha how did you spirit away my MIL to your Christmas celebration? She's an awesome lot like my MIL. I'm so sorry. You did really good this time. I stand up and applaud you! 

Mine brought us a ratty, gigantic suitcase filled with gifts (?) and told us that my 2nd DS asked for the suitcase to move into his dorm. My son was 🤔 and said he never asked her for one as he knows we have so much luggage and he's just moving about four miles away. DH just quietly moved it to a safe spot and poof! It was gone before the weekend started. This happens all.the.time and she ISN'T scared of the USPS. In fact, if she would just stop sending crap to us she'd be quite a bit more wealthy. 

 

Edited January 1, 2023 by YaelAldrich
Added more details

[Guest]

On 12/30/2022 at 10:34 PM, Terabith said:

I have to ask...you've got someone who is rigid, anxious, and probably not neurotypical.  When she gets upset about wanting you to take ice cream, or a guitar that is too small for your kids, why don't you just say thank you and toss the ice cream in a dumpster after you leave/ donate the guitar when you get home?  Why argue with her?  

This is what I think too and I have a mother who (used to) do those things too. (She is mostly too ill and disabled now.) It is not worth the argument. I would take the ice cream and throw it in a dumpster on the way home. Or throw it away the minute we’re home. I would take the electric guitar and give it away. If she asks about it later I would say, “I gave that to a child who needed it because, as we told you, our son does not need it.” All she can do at that point is throw a tantrum. 
 

For my mom, gifting things is part of a hoarding pattern. She may recognize that she doesn’t have space or need for something but she can’t deal with disposing of it herself, so she gives stuff to me instead. I literally just got a bag of stuff she carefully saved out for me and most of it is trash I couldn’t care less about. The only thing I do find interesting is my grandmother’s address books (because of the ancestry things I’ve done) but the important pages can be scanned into my computer and the books and stinky-assed papers can be thrown away. 
 

I think not wasting my energy on a pointless argument is also setting boundaries. 

[Scarlett]

On 12/31/2022 at 7:50 AM, Indigo Blue said:

My mom has been so extremely pushy about other family members owning pets. It was relentless. I experienced this myself. She wouldn’t listen if you explained you did not want a pet at that time. She’d do this to parents in the family in front of their children. Someone (not me) who was pressured finally got a few pets. Then she trashed them behind their back because they weren’t keeping them inside. Didn’t put up a fence. Didn’t give them enough attention. The poor children. DIL is always throwing the dog out the back door and the children get upset. They can’t even have their dog inside. Horrible DIL. DIL hates dogs. She’s just awful. I agree about the proper care of animals, but not about not having enough sense to know when someone isn’t ready for a pet, it may not end well for the pet. Just being so overbearing that someone needs a pet.

I’d say no, and she’d just keep going about how we need a dog. Never, ever stopped. 
 

Here is the really crazy part. When I, myself, was a child, we weren’t allowed pets inside. I did just what her grandchildren did. I’d quietly get my little dog from outside and snuggle him in my bed. She’d walk in, scoop him up, and out the door he went. Same with my orange tabby cat. We had large, outside (expensive, too) dogs that had no fence and freely ran into the highway that we lived on. Three of them got ran over at different times. Once, a box of kittens died in an open box when left outside overnight during a bad storm. I’m not making that up. 
 

If these topics come up now, she rewrites a lot of it. One dog….she insists was always indoors. He never was. Ever. 
 

So, she roasted her DIL behind her back for doing the exact same things she once did. DIL also screamed at her children, except one who was her golden child. Mom did the same to us, but DIL was talked about constantly for it, and frequently put on angry displays of contempt for her right in front of DIL’s children. 
 

I’ve learned to say no and be firm if she is pushing something. From taking home a bag of oranges (that weren’t even hers to give away in the first place) that I don’t want to anything else. Everything with her is “the best, cutest, most delicious, most beautiful, thing I’ve ever seen in my life”. And then she wants you to agree, buy it, taste it, look where she’s pointing, or take it home to live with you. You have to say no. 
 

 

That is all projection I think.  She has some sort of toxic shame about things she has done that she has to change the story and put it onto other people. 

My XMIL used to do that to me all of the time.  She accused me of being pregnant before I got married.  Turns out SHE was pregnant before she got married.  She accused me of having bad genes..,,turns out she was adopted.   Not that being adopted makes you have bad genes; but she was very insecure about not knowing her roots. She constantly told stories about how her adoptive father was really her birth father and that he got a nurse at the hospital where he worked pregnant.  And that nurse was the smartest nurse that ever existed and that is why she (MIL) is so intelligent because of the good smart birth parents she has. 
 

She told me I was inferior to their family in every way. Just on and on.

Your dog stories reminded me of this.  We had a male boxer mix before ds was born.  XMIL’s hair dresser had a littler of Boxer pups she was selling.  We wanted one.  MIL offered to buy one for us.  We wanted a female.  She wanted us to get a male.  She went on and on and on and would. Not. stop trying to control what sex we got.  We finally just told her to forget it.  
 

It really is crazy town.  Not pleasant to be around at all. 

[catz]

2 hours ago, Quill said:

 

I think not wasting my energy on a pointless argument is also setting boundaries. 

I guess thinks about their boundaries differently.  I agree.  I would have just done anything to get her done talking about it.  I would have no issue dropping that into our alley trash on our way in the house and not thinking another thing about it.  I just refuse to engage in negative back and forth at this point in my life.  

She would have lost me on the first argument about the light or whatever it was.  I would have probably left when she started in.  "Seems like maybe you're done having company now since you're reprimanding me about this like I"m a child."  You do that a few times, she might think twice about her tone.  Obviously though, you may have different boundaries and were happy with this get together, which is fine too.  Everyone is different.

OP - if you're having a better relationship with your sister can you get together with her without involving your mother? I'm not saying never visit your mom or help her in her elder years.  But I also think planning your holidays around someone who makes them tense and miserable will imprint on your kids and that would be a priority to me to avoid.  I guess maybe that depends on the vibe you get from your kids on events like this. I have a sibling who makes every get together awkward.  I won't host them at my hosue any more and events are kept at places like restuarants and bowling alleys where we have something else to focus on for a couple hours and can leave.

[Grace Hopper]

2 hours ago, Quill said:

This is what I think too and I have a mother who (used to) do those things too. (She is mostly too ill and disabled now.) It is not worth the argument. I would take the ice cream and throw it in a dumpster on the way home. Or throw it away the minute we’re home. I would take the electric guitar and give it away. If she asks about it later I would say, “I gave that to a child who needed it because, as we told you, our son does not need it.” All she can do at that point is throw a tantrum. 
 

For my mom, gifting things is part of a hoarding pattern. She may recognize that she doesn’t have space or need for something but she can’t deal with disposing of it herself, so she gives stuff to me instead. I literally just got a bag of stuff she carefully saved out for me and most of it is trash I couldn’t care less about. The only thing I do find interesting is my grandmother’s address books (because of the ancestry things I’ve done) but the important pages can be scanned into my computer and the books and stinky-assed papers can be thrown away. 
 

I think not wasting my energy on a pointless argument is also setting boundaries. 

I can see it both ways, depending on the person. For one in my family, an elder who insists on giving us stuff every time we’re over there, we do just take it and dispatch it elsewhere. 
 

There’s another family member, though, who does this as a setup. Give in to doing or taking a little thing, the door opens for a bigger ask, the first of which may seem reasonable, but then the next thing you know their spouse shows up in the driveway with a uhaul trailer. Yes this actually happened and it was a small trailer, but still…. we had to figure out what to do with all the contents to do as suggested above, just take it off their hands and toss it later. It’s not only inconvenient, it’s a mental/emotional game because if they later come to your house and don’t see any of those donated items displayed or in use….messy. I have found it much easier to say a firm no thanks and leave empty handed. So it really depends on the person you’re dealing with. 

Edited January 1, 2023 by Grace Hopper

[saraha]

I was pretty happy with my response of that is not a nice thing to say to someone. It caught her flat footed and she really had to think through her response, even though her response was garbage, it made her think for like a second. My plan is to say that, or something similar every time. I want to have at least some sort of relationship and if she gets tired of me and cuts ME out, we’ll, that will be on her. I will be sad but I will be content that I did my best.

[Faith-manor]

7 hours ago, Grace Hopper said:

I can see it both ways, depending on the person. For one in my family, an elder who insists on giving us stuff every time we’re over there, we do just take it and dispatch it elsewhere. 
 

There’s another family member, though, who does this as a setup. Give in to doing or taking a little thing, the door opens for a bigger ask, the first of which may seem reasonable, but then the next thing you know their spouse shows up in the driveway with a uhaul trailer. Yes this actually happened and it was a small trailer, but still…. we had to figure out what to do with all the contents to do as suggested above, just take it off their hands and toss it later. It’s not only inconvenient, it’s a mental/emotional game because if they later come to your house and don’t see any of those donated items displayed or in use….messy. I have found it much easier to say a firm no thanks and leave empty handed. So it really depends on the person you’re dealing with. 

Yes, I have the 2nd in my life. No has to be a hard, hard no and absolute refusal to participate because the next demand is just gargantuan, and a NO to that will result in the most amazing meltdown you have ever seen. So unfortunately, we learned the hard way, we can't give in. But we also learned that once the manipulation began, to say no and leave even if we had only been there a very short period of time. One visit lasted 30 minutes after a six hour drive. Sigh. The behavior modification worked, and things have been a lot more reasonable in the last few years.

[Indigo Blue]

Thinking about the ice cream….

If she says she can’t have it, and you have to take it home….and then you say we don’t want it, but we’ll toss it for you….and she says, oh, thanks, that would be great…then fine. I’d take it and toss it. Don’t like wasting, but I’d toss it for her. 
 

But if she expects you to take it home and not toss it, saying no, don’t toss it…it’s a new carton….you have to take it….then she’s trying to force YOU to eat it when she gives herself the option not to. 
 

So then you either have to take it, toss it, and lie later if she asks questions…or

eat it so you don’t have to lie if asked later about the ice cream.

She could ask the kids later. They would be put in a spot. Mom threw it away (would make her angry) or yes, we ate it. (Lie).
 

Either way is not ideal. I would not want to lie in that scenario because that’s the sort of junk my mom pulls all the time, and I don’t want to do that. 
 

So….my final answer would probably be 1) No. I’m not taking it home. Or 2) If it goes out the door with me, it’s getting tossed. 
 

If she says it’s a new carton. You have to take it home…..I’d put “If it goes out the door with me it’s getting tossed” on repeat until she decided what SHE was going to do about all the extra ice cream. 
 

Even then, there’s a good chance of this whole thing escalating and becoming yet another thing. 

Sometimes no matter what, you don’t win, but I would make it clear I wasn’t going to be eating it if I didn’t want it. 
 

Saraha, I’m not really directing this at you. I’m just more or less just putting some thoughts down about it because I started thinking about it again tonight. 
 

Mostly I wouldn’t want it to become a thing the kids were caught up in, for sure, but I know you’ve probably already thought that out.

Just thinking out loud here……

[Shoeless]

We had a scene once about some really ugly lamps. Take the lamps, you have to take the lamps, they belonged to great aunt so and so, but what about the lamps, blah blah blah.  Lots of tears and guilt because "Oh, but what about the lamps?!"  Everyone finally shut up about the lamps when I said my only intention was to sell them on eBay. 

DH once showed up with his truck full of all sorts of nonsense that was too precious to be discarded ("That chair belonged to Great Aunt Binkie and she loved you so!") yet was stuff that no one wanted to keep in their house. Lots of tears and guilt heaped on DH by his family. I was hopping mad when I saw the truck full of this crap. My house is not offsite storage for other people's memories. 

[saraha]

16 hours ago, MissLemon said:

We had a scene once about some really ugly lamps. Take the lamps, you have to take the lamps, they belonged to great aunt so and so, but what about the lamps, blah blah blah.  Lots of tears and guilt because "Oh, but what about the lamps?!"  Everyone finally shut up about the lamps when I said my only intention was to sell them on eBay. 

DH once showed up with his truck full of all sorts of nonsense that was too precious to be discarded ("That chair belonged to Great Aunt Binkie and she loved you so!") yet was stuff that no one wanted to keep in their house. Lots of tears and guilt heaped on DH by his family. I was hopping mad when I saw the truck full of this crap. My house is not offsite storage for other people's memories. 

Yes! Luckily my mom likes minimal clutter so all the sentimental things have been filed out. I kept a lot of crap, then realized she will probably not set foot in my house ever again and we had a giant burn party! That felt so wonderful

 

17 hours ago, Indigo Blue said:

Thinking about the ice cream….

If she says she can’t have it, and you have to take it home….and then you say we don’t want it, but we’ll toss it for you….and she says, oh, thanks, that would be great…then fine. I’d take it and toss it. Don’t like wasting, but I’d toss it for her. 
 

But if she expects you to take it home and not toss it, saying no, don’t toss it…it’s a new carton….you have to take it….then she’s trying to force YOU to eat it when she gives herself the option not to. 
 

So then you either have to take it, toss it, and lie later if she asks questions…or

eat it so you don’t have to lie if asked later about the ice cream.

She could ask the kids later. They would be put in a spot. Mom threw it away (would make her angry) or yes, we ate it. (Lie).
 

Either way is not ideal. I would not want to lie in that scenario because that’s the sort of junk my mom pulls all the time, and I don’t want to do that. 
 

So….my final answer would probably be 1) No. I’m not taking it home. Or 2) If it goes out the door with me, it’s getting tossed. 
 

If she says it’s a new carton. You have to take it home…..I’d put “If it goes out the door with me it’s getting tossed” on repeat until she decided what SHE was going to do about all the extra ice cream. 
 

Even then, there’s a good chance of this whole thing escalating and becoming yet another thing. 

Sometimes no matter what, you don’t win, but I would make it clear I wasn’t going to be eating it if I didn’t want it. 
 

Saraha, I’m not really directing this at you. I’m just more or less just putting some thoughts down about it because I started thinking about it again tonight. 
 

Mostly I wouldn’t want it to become a thing the kids were caught up in, for sure, but I know you’ve probably already thought that out.

Just thinking out loud here……

I thought dh was so quick thinking when he said it will not make it home, but I will bag it up for you and throw it out. And her choices then became know he is going to throw it away, or deal with it myself. She chose to deal with it herself. Dh said later he fully expects her next round to be, well, I can’t buy anything nice because they will just throw it away and he is prepared for that by deciding from now on he is providing any food required for any situation. 

[Grace Hopper]

16 minutes ago, saraha said:

Yes! Luckily my mom likes minimal clutter so all the sentimental things have been filed out. I kept a lot of crap, then realized she will probably not set foot in my house ever again and we had a giant burn party! That felt so wonderful

 

I thought dh was so quick thinking when he said it will not make it home, but I will bag it up for you and throw it out. And her choices then became know he is going to throw it away, or deal with it myself. She chose to deal with it herself. Dh said later he fully expects her next round to be, well, I can’t buy anything nice because they will just throw it away and he is prepared for that by deciding from now on he is providing any food required for any situation. 

I feel like your dh has gone through a real season of growth. Yay for you!

[saraha]

3 minutes ago, Grace Hopper said:

I feel like your dh has gone through a real season of growth. Yay for you!

I feel that too! I know we shouldn’t air our dirty laundry on the internet, but the nice thing is that I can go back and see changes in both of us, and honestly it has definitely been for the better. You kind of think when you are young that by the time you are 45, you have things figured out, but over the last year I have made some changes in my behavior and realizations in our relationship that I wish I had done/realized/learned when I was younger. A lot of things I wish I knew when I was younger

[Carol in Cal.]

8 minutes ago, saraha said:

I feel that too! I know we shouldn’t air our dirty laundry on the internet, but the nice thing is that I can go back and see changes in both of us, and honestly it has definitely been for the better. You kind of think when you are young that by the time you are 45, you have things figured out, but over the last year I have made some changes in my behavior and realizations in our relationship that I wish I had done/realized/learned when I was younger. A lot of things I wish I knew when I was younger

These techniques take practice, and the great thing is that you are both practicing them on the others’ behalf.

Regarding the ice cream I think you completely did the right thing.

It reminds me of a weird convo I had recently with my invalid narc.  “Do you want half of this TV dinner?”  “No, thank you.”  “Well, I can’t finish it.”  “Ok, do you want me to throw it away or wrap it up for you to have tomorrow?”  “I want you to eat it!”  “No thank you.”  “Well what are you going to eat otherwise?”  “I will figure something out.”  “Well, why not this?”  “I don’t want it.  Thank you anyway.”  FURY.  

It’s all, ALL about control.

[Grace Hopper]

17 minutes ago, saraha said:

A lot of things I wish I knew when I was younger

This is a sentiment universally felt!

[Faith-manor]

1 hour ago, saraha said:

Yes! Luckily my mom likes minimal clutter so all the sentimental things have been filed out. I kept a lot of crap, then realized she will probably not set foot in my house ever again and we had a giant burn party! That felt so wonderful

 

I thought dh was so quick thinking when he said it will not make it home, but I will bag it up for you and throw it out. And her choices then became know he is going to throw it away, or deal with it myself. She chose to deal with it herself. Dh said later he fully expects her next round to be, well, I can’t buy anything nice because they will just throw it away and he is prepared for that by deciding from now on he is providing any food required for any situation. 

You dh has her number and that is a very good thing!

[Spryte]

43 minutes ago, Carol in Cal. said:

These techniques take practice, and the great thing is that you are both practicing them on the others’ behalf.

Regarding the ice cream I think you completely did the right thing.

It reminds me of a weird convo I had recently with my invalid narc.  “Do you want half of this TV dinner?”  “No, thank you.”  “Well, I can’t finish it.”  “Ok, do you want me to throw it away or wrap it up for you to have tomorrow?”  “I want you to eat it!”  “No thank you.”  “Well what are you going to eat otherwise?”  “I will figure something out.”  “Well, why not this?”  “I don’t want it.  Thank you anyway.”  FURY.  

It’s all, ALL about control.

Wow. I have had that same conversation many times. So familiar. 

[saraha]

1 hour ago, Faith-manor said:

You dh has her number and that is a very good thing!

I think he always has, but we always just kind of dealt with (or not as the case was a lot of times) with our own foo. But this last year is like dh grew a backbone and decided he was not putting up with anyones crap anymore. He hasn’t seen my mom since Easter as he and dd18 were traveling over thanksgiving so he had his “that is truly it” moment over the weekend. Some things in our marriage feel too little too late for me, but the biggest things (dealing with our foos) is a game changer. In our case, that has looked like me running my mouth less about his family and him stepping into the breach and him deciding the only way I am going to make it with my mother is if he steps in (which she has a thing about men, she always doted on my brother until he went no contact in his mid 20s with all of us, and always treated dh and ex-bil better than she treated me and my sister and she favors me two boys over my 4 girls)

I have had the pleasure and the pain of watching him up close let go of his ideas of what his family is like and grab ahold of the accurate picture, and figure out where he wants us to be in that picture. I am so grateful we hung onto each other even when we were mad at each other.

[saraha]

My mom called today and as soon as I heard her ring I felt my stomach drop thinking this was the other shoe. Ds12 answered it before I could say wait and she had called to tell him she used his Taco Bell gift card to take herself out to lunch and how much she enjoyed it and how she had enough to go again sometime this month, then she hung up!  No drama, just thanking ds! Not sure what to think of that.

[Faith-manor]

22 minutes ago, saraha said:

My mom called today and as soon as I heard her ring I felt my stomach drop thinking this was the other shoe. Ds12 answered it before I could say wait and she had called to tell him she used his Taco Bell gift card to take herself out to lunch and how much she enjoyed it and how she had enough to go again sometime this month, then she hung up!  No drama, just thanking ds! Not sure what to think of that.

No idea. Just for the moment sigh in relief and eat a piece of chocolate! 😁

[Rosie_0801]

*shrug* They can behave when they want to.

[importswim]

On 12/30/2022 at 3:04 PM, saraha said:

 If having us over stresses her out so much, then she should quit insisting we come. We could meet halfway at a restaurant or something.

This won't happen because one of the biggest power trips for your mom is her use of dealing with food for control. At a restaurant you can't control what people eat, how long it takes them to eat, or what happens to that food after they've gotten full and finished eating.

All of that being said, I think going out to a restaurant is an excellent idea. 😉

[Jean in Newcastle]

1 hour ago, saraha said:

My mom called today and as soon as I heard her ring I felt my stomach drop thinking this was the other shoe. Ds12 answered it before I could say wait and she had called to tell him she used his Taco Bell gift card to take herself out to lunch and how much she enjoyed it and how she had enough to go again sometime this month, then she hung up!  No drama, just thanking ds! Not sure what to think of that.

You don't have to think anything of it.  It was a nice thing. . But it didn't come with a guarantee of anything in the future. 

[saraha]

8 hours ago, importswim said:

This won't happen because one of the biggest power trips for your mom is her use of dealing with food for control. At a restaurant you can't control what people eat, how long it takes them to eat, or what happens to that food after they've gotten full and finished eating.

All of that being said, I think going out to a restaurant is an excellent idea. 😉

You are right. If we take more than an hour to eat, she can’t take our plates away! Dh is a slow eater, especially at holidays when you are sitting around and visiting while eating. More than once early in our marriage she took his plate away while there was food on it and he was still eating. It only took him a couple of times to figure out that when she starts bustling around to not take his hand off his plate!  

I would love for our next family thing to be at a restaurant and bowling alley halfway between our house and hers. last summer we invited her to meet us at this mom and pop restaurant that had an arcade half way between our houses, but she didn’t enjoy herself because she couldn’t be the center of attention. And she was mad that dd brought the boy she had been seeing to meet her family. She sat in the corner with a book even though my sister and I tried to engage with her. My sister also decided she didn’t like the idea of meeting the boyfriend (after we all got there) and was very cold to him because she also wasn’t the center of attention. So as much as I would like to think it might be fun, I don’t know

Edited January 6, 2023 by saraha

[saraha]

I almost forgot about the last time I met her at a restaurant. I met her by myself at a Mexican restaurant she said she really liked on her town. She really liked their queso and ordered it to have with the chips and salsa they bring out. I tried it and didn’t really care for it. So I kept munching on chips and salsa. She kept insisting that I eat the queso, I kept saying no thank you. Finally she reached over slid the bowl of salsa over to her corner of the table and said stop eating that! Eat the queso, I am paying for it, the salsa is free! I said again, I don’t like it and pushed the chips away too since now I wasn’t allowed to eat the salsa. Then she tried to make me order fajitas. I said no thanks, I’m having enchiladas. She went on and on about fajitas until the waiter came and I ordered enchiladas. So she decided she was only going to get one taco with meat and lettuce. Not sure how that was punishing me, but 🤷🏼‍♀️. Then the fight began about taking home the extra queso. She kept at me until I picked up the queso container and dropped it into a trash can on the way out. She was LIVID. So I am afraid to go to a restaurant, but it would definitely put a time limit on being together.

[TexasProud]

7 hours ago, saraha said:

I almost forgot about the last time I met her at a restaurant. I met her by myself at a Mexican restaurant she said she really liked on her town. She really liked their queso and ordered it to have with the chips and salsa they bring out. I tried it and didn’t really care for it. So I kept munching on chips and salsa. She kept insisting that I eat the queso, I kept saying no thank you. Finally she reached over slid the bowl of salsa over to her corner of the table and said stop eating that! Eat the queso, I am paying for it, the salsa is free! I said again, I don’t like it and pushed the chips away too since now I wasn’t allowed to eat the salsa. Then she tried to make me order fajitas. I said no thanks, I’m having enchiladas. She went on and on about fajitas until the waiter came and I ordered enchiladas. So she decided she was only going to get one taco with meat and lettuce. Not sure how that was punishing me, but 🤷🏼‍♀️. Then the fight began about taking home the extra queso. She kept at me until I picked up the queso container and dropped it into a trash can on the way out. She was LIVID. So I am afraid to go to a restaurant, but it would definitely put a time limit on being together.

I just cannot imagine this kind of behavior at all or any of the behavior you describe. I mean, I would never comment on someone else's food choices or any of this stuff.  This is just really, really weird.  

[importswim]

12 hours ago, saraha said:

I almost forgot about the last time I met her at a restaurant. I met her by myself at a Mexican restaurant she said she really liked on her town. She really liked their queso and ordered it to have with the chips and salsa they bring out. I tried it and didn’t really care for it. So I kept munching on chips and salsa. She kept insisting that I eat the queso, I kept saying no thank you. Finally she reached over slid the bowl of salsa over to her corner of the table and said stop eating that! Eat the queso, I am paying for it, the salsa is free! I said again, I don’t like it and pushed the chips away too since now I wasn’t allowed to eat the salsa. Then she tried to make me order fajitas. I said no thanks, I’m having enchiladas. She went on and on about fajitas until the waiter came and I ordered enchiladas. So she decided she was only going to get one taco with meat and lettuce. Not sure how that was punishing me, but 🤷🏼‍♀️. Then the fight began about taking home the extra queso. She kept at me until I picked up the queso container and dropped it into a trash can on the way out. She was LIVID. So I am afraid to go to a restaurant, but it would definitely put a time limit on being together.

Yeah, that's in line with what I've read through your original thanksgiving thread and this past one. Hugs to you. You don't have to accommodate her and she has the choice to act how she wants to. If going to a restaurant is better all around for you guys and you can have fun with each other whilst ignoring or not playing into your mother's shenanigans/narcissistic ego then that sounds like the best option to me. You get to make decisions too.

[importswim]

Also, at the restaurant you're allowing her the opportunity to engage with you and your family in a way that's good for you. It's her choice to squander it by being petty. That's not on you.

[Indigo Blue]

At a restaurant my mom is like….

That man over there is staring at you. 
 

They didn’t bring us our free peanuts.

 

Our waitress is being very snarky. 
 

That lady over there keeps looking at me. 
 

Just try a bite. Just one bite. Here, I’ll just put this on your plate. Just take one little taste. 
 

I’m going to grab a few of your (food type) off your plate. 

 

To my son (privately) after a meal…If your mom hadn’t been there, I would have had that whole meal comped. (Don’t let goody two shoes me stop you from becoming dysregulated). 
 

She is a food pusher, too, but she doesn’t do it quite the way your mom does.