DH and jealousy

[Drama Llama]

DH has been out of the hospital for a week.  He's still depressed but more stable than he's been since our son died.  He's staying with his Dad, a few blocks from where I live with the boys.  Our custody agreement says he sees them, supervised by a family member, on Sundays, but if he's stable and the kids ask/consent, he can see them at other times, still supervised.  So far, in 8 days, he's gone to a game for each kid, one kid's concert, and come over for dinner, plus church and Easter celebrations on Sunday.  When he sees the kids there's a lot of tension.  It's like he's forgotten how to be a dad.   Plus one of my kids is really struggling to trust him.  So, short structured visits (e.g. he watches a kid play soccer, or sits next to one kid's at at his brother's concert, or we eat dinner together with other people, or we go to church together) work best.  I feel pretty strongly that the kids aren't ready for more time with them, but am hoping that this will change over time.  There have been times in the past week when he's asked to see the kids and I've said no.  

During the 19 months when DH wasn't parenting, and the two years before that when a lot of our parenting time went to DS2, DH's family has really stepped up.  My kids have always had adults to watch their games, pick them up to go for bike rides, or teach them how to cook or do woodworking.  It's been a huge help to me, and I think the only reason my kids are emotionally healthy is because they've had plenty of attention from stable functional adults.  My oldest kid has a particularly close relationship with my oldest BIL, the husband of DH's older sister (not the one with the little girls).  He and my son are planning on competing in some triathlons this summer, and they get together a few times a week to swim or bike.  He also takes my younger kid once a week.  Often if he's picking up or dropping off a kid he might eat dinner with us.  Plus he's there when the kids go to Sunday dinner with the family and often spends some of that time playing sports with with all the kids.  So, my kids see him a lot. 

DH is jealous.  He feels like BIL is "stealing" his role, and DS14's affection.  He doesn't react the same way when the kids see his father, grandfather, or brother.  It's just BIL.  His younger sister, predictably, feeds this.  She tells him things like "They're your kids, if you say someone can't see them then their mother shouldn't allow it."  and "Of course he doesn't want to see you, he has his uncle."  Which ignores the role that DH's behavior has played in the DS14's anxiety.  

Ironically, I think that DH's dislike of BIL leads to him missing opportunities to connect with the DS14.  For example, if we're at their house on Sunday, and BIL and the kids are playing, DH will go inside rather than joining in, or even watching.  I suggested that BIL could be on the list of people who can supervise a visit which would let DH join BIL and DS14 on bike rides or at the pool, but DH has refused which means that DH can't do DS14's favorite things with DS14 unless his brother or sister is available to join, and they both work long hours. His dislike also spills over into interactions between the DS and his Dad.  For example, DH went to see DS14 at a track meet.  After the race he spent like 5 seconds praising DS's time, and the rest of the time asking him about his shoes to try to figure out if BIL had bought them (he did, but DS14 was trying to avoid saying that), why wasn't DS14 wearing the shoes Dad got him (he outgrew them), where did DS14 get the new shoes (DS named the store), who picked them out (DS said "I asked my coach and then tried on the brands he suggested") etc . . .  

I should note that before he got sick DH liked this BIL.  He chose him to be DS14's godfather.  He still chooses to use his visitation time to take the kids to his sister's house. 

I'm not sure what I'm asking, other than whether people have had similar situations.  I've heard plenty of people with similar issues around a new romantic partner, but obviously there's zero romantic involvement there (although when DH is at his most delusional he thinks I'm unfaithful and imagines that there is, that isn't an issue right now), and BIL isn't new.   He's been married to DH's sister longer than I've known DH.  

[bolt.]

I don't have any similar experiences to relate. (I hope you get lots of those replies too!) But I thought it might be helpful for me to share the observation that while it shows your compassion and empathy (wonderful traits) for you to be so concerned with the inner workings of your DH's emotional life... I'm not sure it's really within your boundaries to be trying to manage that?

I get that your life would be simpler if the root problem (DH's disordered reaction to BIL) could be the point-of-change for fixing the problem. That's usually true: fixing problems at the root is often very effective. However, when the root of the problem is outside of your boundaries, it can help to frame the problem differently.

If 'your problem' isn't that your DH experiences uncomfortable feelings, then 'your problem' is... what, then? How can you describe the problem from another point of view? Does another point of view provide other points-for-change that are within your boundaries?

Edited April 22, 2022 by bolt.

[Catwoman]

Prioritize your kids and their feelings. If they like spending time with BIL, keep encouraging that, because BIL sounds like a great guy who is a very good influence on the kids.

If your DH can’t deal with that, that’s something for him to talk over with his psychiatrist, not something for you to feel you have to manage for him.

[Drama Llama]

My problem is that interactions like the one I describes where he  interrogates a kid, and my kid feels like he needs to hide the truth, aren’t good for my kid.  

And that I do think it would be good for my kids to have a relationship with their Dad and this is a major roadblock.

Plus at some point if DH and I don’t get back together (which isn’t going to happen while this issue keeps coming up) we are going to need to work out a final custody agreement, and I worry about this issue being an ugly part of that process.

[Lecka]

Your husband’s actual behavior towards your son is problematic.  

 

I think focus on actual behavior towards your son and think about if it is going to take time for a better relationship to develop.  And if your husband is actually taking steps to make that happen.  

 

In the meantime your BIL is a stable adult who — you have not said anything to make his behavior sound problematic.  

 

[Catwoman]

Just now, Baseballandhockey said:

My problem is that interactions like the one I describes where he  interrogates a kid, and my kid feels like he needs to hide the truth, aren’t good for my kid.  

And that I do think it would be good for my kids to have a relationship with their Dad and this is a major roadblock.

Plus at some point if DH and I don’t get back together (which isn’t going to happen while this issue keeps coming up) we are going to need to work out a final custody agreement, and I worry about this issue being an ugly part of that process.

If he is interrogating your kid, I think you need to step up and tell him to knock it off. Forget about the future and think about right now.

If he interrogates your son, tell your son that he needs to let you know immediately, and that he should also tell his father to talk to you about it and not to talk to him about it.

I feel like you are trying to protect your DH, but please focus on the kids. And let your DH know that his behavior is not acceptable, and if he wants unsupervised time with the kids, this sort of behavior has to stop right now.

[Lecka]

I think it would be good for your kids to have a good relationship with their dad, too!

 

But your husband is the one who has to act appropriately to make that happen.

 

You are doing what you can.  But you can’t make this thing that would be good happen, if your husband is not doing his part.  
 

If he’s not stable enough to see them without making things worse, maybe he needs to see them with a counselor for a while instead of starting with family visits.  
 

Because it sounds like he is making things worse right now, which is too bad.  

[happi duck]

It sounds like your kids understand they're hiding the truth.  Maybe help them understand not to hide the truth because if their dad reacts it shows areas that need work?  Ultimately a good thing?

Are they trying to keep the peace because they are afraid of losing father or uncle?  Can they be reassured in that regard?

 

 

[Lecka]

I think it is one thing to be stable enough to be out of the hospital and another thing to be able to see kids multiple times a week.  
 

Maybe he could be on better behavior for a shorter amount of time and/or if he knew you wouldn’t put up with him interrogating your kids.  
 

No you shouldn’t have to be put in this situation, but it sounds like you are.  

[bolt.]

1 minute ago, Baseballandhockey said:

My problem is that interactions like the one I describes where he  interrogates a kid, and my kid feels like he needs to hide the truth, aren’t good for my kid.  

And that I do think it would be good for my kids to have a relationship with their Dad and this is a major roadblock.

Plus at some point if DH and I don’t get back together (which isn’t going to happen while this issue keeps coming up) we are going to need to work out a final custody agreement, and I worry about this issue being an ugly part of that process.

Those are really good observations!

You can explore the 'interrogation interactions'. First, I'd wonder how frequently they are happening. Once or twice a year will probably do no harm and require no strategy. Weekly is another thing entirely! I'd also wonder whether your kids do need to hide the truth, or if they just feel that feeling? Exploring why they feel that way and whether (realistically) there is anything more healthy that they could do instead could be worth contemplating.

Your middle point is very relevant, but not very specific. On the one hand: if it's a roadblock because your DH's mental health means that he isn't able to do things differently -- maybe it's just there, and there's nothing you can do about it. On the other hand: if it's a roadblock that has some variability that is within your boundaries to influence... maybe that's worth exploring. Does anything (reasonable and realistic) about your conduct change the way this roadblock functions for your DH?

For your final fear, I think more data could be helpful. How *exactly* do custody agreements work in your jurisdiction? Is it really true that 'parent A' could place binding conditions on who the kids see while they are in the care of 'parent B'? Can he actually pursue that and maybe achieve it: within the legal system, using a lawyer? (Because that sounds odd and a bit unlikely, but I'm no expert.) If he can't pursue it legally, that means your fear is mostly about how he could talk and they ways he might apply emotional pressure to you personally (not through lawyers) as the process proceeds. For that, you need some coping strategies for some poopy conversations and conflict -- but you don't need to be worried that he might actually succeed.

[Lecka]

You have also said recently you want to stay married.  
 

I think you need to carve out time for the two of you as a couple and I think seeing how you two get along is really important.

 

I think it’s really okay to go slow with the kids.  If things were going well — okay, that would be different.  It doesn’t sound like they are going well — okay slow down.  

[Lecka]

I think maybe make the status quo that the visits are more limited in that case?

 

Maybe get a lawyer now?

 

I don’t think placating, or thinking you are placating, your husband is the way to go right now if you are thinking custody issues.  Because right now YOU are in a strong position, and I think you are better off to keep it strong, right now.  

[Katy]

Interrogation = end of visit, every time. Focus on his behavior towards kids, NOT his delusions, which you can’t control. 

I might discuss with a therapist first, even his psychiatrist, but I’d lean towards ending the visit every time the kids feel a need to lie to him. They’re old enough that a therapist might disagree. I think it’s wonderful that that your kids have this uncle in their life. 

[lauraw4321]

Are the two of you in couples counseling? If so I would explicitly discuss this with your counselor. If not I would tell your husband that he needs to deal with this in his personal counseling and you will need to address it as a couple when he is healthy enough to go to couples counseling because his reaction is hurting his son and his chance of being with his son. In other words his thoughts are driving him to engage in unhealthy behaviors.

[Storygirl]

What would happen if your sons just answer their dad's questions directly, instead of trying to cover how much time they spend with their uncle? I suspect they are feeling responsible for your husband's mental well being, which is a really hard place for them to be. Somehow, if they could try to release themselves from that burden, it might help their own mental state, even if it doesn't improve their relationship with their dad. That's why I'm wondering if somehow they can stop tiptoeing around the issue and just be direct with him? "Uncle bought the shoes for me." If dad continues the conversation, they can keep answering directly. If dad gets stuck on the topic, perhaps they can have a sentence that they know to say: "Let's talk about something else," for example, and change the subject. Very hard to do, but it's something they could practice that might make them feel less vulnerable in the situation.

[Lecka]

It does sound like you have two people ganging up on you and saying you’re being mean and it’s not fair.

Well — that is very immature.  That is not putting the kids first.  
 

But it is disappointing that is what you are getting!  

[Lecka]

Personally I picture the son not wanting to say it because it will lead to a rant about how BIL blah blah and son blah blah.  Long rant.  All the kid and BIL’s fault.  Husband totally entitled to rant.  
 

That says a lot about me for sure.

 

Edit:  oh, and throw in random digs about it every time the shoes are worn in the future, and just generally make it a big deal.  

 

 

Edited April 22, 2022 by Lecka

[catz]

I think with a 14 year old, I think it is ok to start giving him tools to establish boundaries and to tell his dad "No, I'm not comfortable talking about this now, you are making me feel uncomfortable." Or genericly "Yes, uncle Bob helped me get these, I'm grateful."  They shouldn't have to dance around his insecurities.   I do think being able to shut down and/or walk away from a non productive emotionally unhealthy discussion is a good life skill. 

I also think it fair for you to tell him the kids are uncomfortable with X and he needs to move at their pace and let them take the lead.  It isn't reasonable to step away from active parenting for almost 2 years and DEMAND respect.  He needs to earn it back.  It seems like it's a hard balance if he wants to go to sporting events which is awesome but then it just leads to them getting interogated and feeling uncomfortable getting grilled for some unrelated reason.  Like I get wanting to be gentle while working on mental health, but he should also know he damaged the relationship and he has work to do there that isn't going to get better with petty annoyance to the adults who've stood in while he couldn't.  

And isn't it just perfect that SIL is feeding his insecurities.  Ugh, I'm sorry.  

Edited April 22, 2022 by catz

[Lecka]

I agree it’s a good skill.  
 

But can the 14yo actually walk away?

 

Can he actually prevent himself from being ranted at or having digs made at him?

 

Is this possible?

 

I mean — is it possible?  I don’t know how to do it with the boundary setting available to a 14yo.  
 

Part of boundary setting for me is making sure I don’t ride in a car with someone or put myself in someone’s power to make sure I can get away if the boundary is crossed.  But how can a 14yo do that?  
 

If it is possible then I think that is ideal.

 

I am picturing more of a “let’s let dad blow off his steam and we will all pretend like it never happened.”  Aka “we are all just going to put up with this.”

 

Edit:  at this point, it’s out there, it is what it is — the dad has done something, the son has responded how he did.  Now I don’t think it is acceptable and I think a consequence could be limiting time or like pp said — that is a reason to end the visit.  I think that is a good idea. 
 

I think it is garbage to place undue burden on the son.  
 

Yes there are things that are good for the son to do.  But it’s not the son’s job or responsibility to deal with this.  It can help him but he does not have equal power here.  He lives in a family home where his mom and brother want to have more contact with someone who apparently is kind-of (or totally) picking on him and singling him out as causing a problem by liking to spend time with the BIL.  It’s pretty problematic I think.  
 

If this was someone he saw once in a while and everyone was on the same page of “here’s how we handle the difficult person” I think it would be really different.  Then I would totally be in favor of — let him learn to handle this kind of situation.  I think that would be a very appropriate learning opportunity. 

Edited April 22, 2022 by Lecka

[Mrs Tiggywinkle]

On one hand I agree with everyone. This is something DH needs to work through with his therapist and not you.  It sounds like a healthy relationship.

On the other hand, my SIL did a lot of Mom stuff with my kids when I was on bed rest/post surgery or during some periods when my mental health could only manage the very basics of keeping our lives together.  She still does when I am working a lot or just can’t be in three places at once, like when there’s two scheduled baseball games and my oldest is dealing with anxiety all at the same time. I can appreciate the fact that she stepped up while still struggling with my own feelings of inadequacy, jealousy and grief that needing her to step up brings.  it sometimes really does feel all in my face that SIL is doing the things I need or feel I need to be doing but just can’t seem to manage.  And it does hurt in some ways.

So I also understand where your DH is coming from.  I agree though that this needs to be worked through in therapy and not jeopardize the healthy and stable family relationships your sons have. 

[Lecka]

I can totally understand where he is coming from!

 

But that does not excuse his actual actions.

 

If he was saying a lot of mean stuff about it in marriage counseling but not doing the actual actions, I would totally get that!

 

I think instead there is also the ugliness that it is going to be taken out on mom and blamed on mom if the son doesn’t act how the dad wants.  

[Ceilingfan]

Katy said it better than I'd be able to. It's not an uncommon delusion, and not an acceptable one for him to involve the kids in. A relationship that is rebuilt on the grounds of suspicion and loyalty tests is not a good relationship. It may take longer, with less contact  and more therapy, to rebuild the relationship without involving the kids in these issues.

It's really really unfortunate that his younger sister reinforces the delusion. I know you know this, but it was always helpful me to hear again so I'll say it again: you are the sane parent, and nothing you are doing here is wrong. You should not feel any  pressure to change your or your kids' relationship with the BIL in order to lessen your DH's irrational anxiety, or placate him. Your SILis wrong; you have no moral or practical obligation to reduce your kids' social circle, or undermine  their relationships with their extended family (or to change y our relationships with your extended family). It is good for you and the kids to have  these supportive relationships; it would be less good to isolate yourselves more in order  to make your DH feel less jealous. The jealousy is coming from inside him, and is irrational.

[Catwoman]

Just now, Lecka said:

I can totally understand where he is coming from!

 

But that does not excuse his actual actions.

 

If he was saying a lot of mean stuff about it in marriage counseling but not doing the actual actions, I would totally get that!

 

I think instead there is also the ugliness that it is going to be taken out on mom and blamed on mom if the son doesn’t act how the dad wants.  

I understand where he is coming from, too, but unfortunately for him, the children’s needs have to be prioritized over his needs. If he is going to behave poorly, and his behavior is hurtful to the kids, then he loses out. The kids may have plenty of long-term issues to deal with as a result of their father’s severe mental health problems, so I would not hesitate to do everything possible to minimize that damage, even is it makes things more difficult for the DH.

Right now, it seems like the BIL is a tremendous benefit to the family, and if the DH doesn’t like that, he’s going to have to suck it up and deal with it. The kids need a good, strong, stable male influence, and the DH cannot be that person for them at this time — but the BIL can, and he’s willing to step up and be there for them.

[Ceilingfan]

Have you guys considered  family therapy, or therapeutically supervised visitation? Or is that something for farther in the future, once he's been stable for a little while? That sense that he just doesn't know how to parent anymore, or that his interactions with the kids often devolve right away into a need to re-center himself and his perspective in their lives, instead of being curious and interested in what they are doing and feeling - that sounds pretty familiar to me, and he might need some very structured help in learning to redirect himself back into being a parent instead of being defensive and anxious.

It's not that his feelings aren't real, and important for him to address - they're just not something he should be addressing with the kids, but with his own  therapist. Therapeutically supervised visitation will redirect him every time he starts to do this, so that he gets in the habit of swallowing those fears/insecurities and redirecting his attention and interest to the actual child in front of him, instead of the various things he perceives as a threat. But it takes a lot of time.

[HS Mom in NC]

What do you think of stating it explicitly it to your husband when he calls and asks for a visit?  When he says he wants to see son14, do you think it would be useful to say, "No, not if you're going to interrogate him the way you did at the track meet over the shoes BIL gave him. Your interactions need to be focused on your relationship with him, not his relationship with anyone else. If you want to see him to encourage and connect with him, you're welcome to see him at  event/location on date for time frame."

The problem is his, not yours or your child's. If he continues to in his behavior he'll end up further alienating and damaging his relationship with your son.  Letting him know that's what's happening and stepping in to stop it is the kind thing to do both to your husband and your son. Now his psychological state may be such that normal interactions like these are counterproductive if a therapist says so, but they are allowing him around children, so there's some expectation that he can function at some level of normal. Being openly jealous and interrogating son about his support system isn't functional behavior, it's dysfunctional. As tragic as your husband's psychological situation is, that doesn't excuse him doing psychological damage to your son. If he can't control himself, it seems to me it's time to contain the damage and end visits until husband has done more work with a therapist.

[Lecka]

I would also be really concerned if he was getting in a pattern of being nice to Son # 1 but having a problem with Son # 2.  That is honestly harmful to both kids.  

[fraidycat]

I haven't read all the replies. The one thing that jumped out at me is that this BIL is your son's godfather and it sounds like he is really stepping up to that while your son's own father is incapable. I would remind DH that he made that choice and BIL took the oath with DH's consent, and he needs to work on his jealousy w/ his mental health team, not his son.

Big hugs. It's such a big muckhole of messiness. I wish I could wave a magic wand and make it better for you.

[Faith-manor]

3 hours ago, Baseballandhockey said:

My problem is that interactions like the one I describes where he  interrogates a kid, and my kid feels like he needs to hide the truth, aren’t good for my kid.  

And that I do think it would be good for my kids to have a relationship with their Dad and this is a major roadblock.

Plus at some point if DH and I don’t get back together (which isn’t going to happen while this issue keeps coming up) we are going to need to work out a final custody agreement, and I worry about this issue being an ugly part of that process.

Do you kids have their own therapist that they can talk to about this? I think they need a professional to discuss this with so that your feelings do not end up in that mishmash.

I don't think you can fix this, and I think BIL is stepping up as a godfather and fulfilling his role in your religion to provide spiritual and emotional stability for his godson, and that is something that is very, very good. Ds's frontal lobes are not fully developed and won't be for a while so this might not be "fixable" at this time, and DH will need to learn to live with that or take the consequences. Just prioritize your kiddo, and make sure he has a competent professional to bounce his feelings off.

[Annie G]

It might help if you could equip your son with some phrases to use if his dad starts down that path.  Dad, spending time w uncle doesn’t mean I want to spend less time with you. I am blessed to have many people who love me and want to spend time with me.  Just like I have many friends, I have room for multiple adults in my life.  Those kinds of phrases are absolutely true and yet don’t point fingers at his dad that the real problem is his mental health issues.   

It’s fine for you to intervene when it happens but at 14 your son also needs permission to speak up, too, if he feels like it. 

[kbutton]

I am wondering if there are some executive functioning issues that are cropping up due to having less bandwidth due to his mental health. If so, I wonder if there is a concrete way for him to have some structured help to realize that kids do things like outgrow shoes, and people step up to fill a void, and here's the cheat sheet for where everything is now? Not that this is your job, but maybe something someone else could do or have input into if it would work (therapist?). Something that puts a pin in it to say, "This is water under the bridge. You were away, but now you are present. It's dismaying to have missed these events, but if you want to know what happened so that you can re-enter the stream of life, re-orient yourself with this list before grilling your kid (or anyone else)." "And by the way, you should be glad your BIL has been supporting your son--even if you were well, the more loving adults we have investing in the kids, the better. The kids don't need to be made to feel weird for having experienced things while you had a time lapse." Concrete details really do tether us to the change of time, and it's not unusual to think of kids at various ages and picture things like their specific outfits, whereas with adults, we know they don't outgrow stuff in a short time. I can imagine those details poke at grief over the situation, and it might take a concrete solution since those are concrete details that crop up.

I had a co-worker that I met a year or so after a big family loss. Her young adult daughter experienced that loss from across the country, and she hadn't been on her own all that long to be used to being away for normal milestones, much less the death of a very close relative. Another daughter was at home going to college locally. It was a really big deal every time the older daughter came home--way too many firsts of not having the relative around, feeling like other people were moving on too fast, etc. It was like her grief was in slow motion while everyone else's moved at "normal" speed (I know there is no normal, straight line way to grieve, but there are definitely things that can warp the process). No mental illness that I am aware of. Anyway, this reminds me of that. 

I am so sorry it's another thing to deal with.

[Toocrazy!!]

Is he diagnosed delusional in some manner? I have some experience with that, and for us once the delusion hits and they decide on it, there’s just nothing that will convince them they’re being irrational. 
I’m sorry your family is dealing with this. 

[TechWife]

4 hours ago, catz said:

I think with a 14 year old, I think it is ok to start giving him tools to establish boundaries and to tell his dad "No, I'm not comfortable talking about this now, you are making me feel uncomfortable." Or genericly "Yes, uncle Bob helped me get these, I'm grateful."  They shouldn't have to dance around his insecurities.   I do think being able to shut down and/or walk away from a non productive emotionally unhealthy discussion is a good life skill. 

I also think it fair for you to tell him the kids are uncomfortable with X and he needs to move at their pace and let them take the lead.  It isn't reasonable to step away from active parenting for almost 2 years and DEMAND respect.  He needs to earn it back.  It seems like it's a hard balance if he wants to go to sporting events which is awesome but then it just leads to them getting interogated and feeling uncomfortable getting grilled for some unrelated reason.  Like I get wanting to be gentle while working on mental health, but he should also know he damaged the relationship and he has work to do there that isn't going to get better with petty annoyance to the adults who've stood in while he couldn't.  

And isn't it just perfect that SIL is feeding his insecurities.  Ugh, I'm sorry.  

These are good ideas.

Are the kids in counseling that would help them set appropriate boundaries and ways to communicate them and enforce them? Those are useful skills for anyone, but would be particularly helpful to them at this point in their lives with their dad.

[BusyMom5]

I think this illustrates that while he's better, he's still not ready to be a parent.  I would worry that the more "bad" interactions the kids have around this, that it will put a wedge between them. Your DH is jealous,  but he's also not able to pick up thevslavk.  He needs to be able to see the hurt he caused snd how its affected the kids.  

[lmrich]

Just going to say your BIL sounds great! 

[prairiewindmomma]

Presumably there is some documentation and support for the limited parenting time right now in the court record. 
 

If the parenting time is resulting in harm to the kids because of dh’s delusions, you need to continue to get that documented and this needs to be part of the discussion with therapists so that they can be called in the courtroom when future parenting time decisions are made by the court.

Is this at the level where you need to cut back on parenting time or go to therapeutically managed parenting (which I get is expensive and a hassle).

You can’t fix Dh. It is up to Dh to fix Dh. What you can do is help your kids navigate through this. They are old enough to be able to benefit from therapy on how they can help manage interactions with Dh, or choose not to go (depending on your state).

I would advise building a support network outside of dh’s family. Things are very complicated and entangled.

[Drama Llama]

3 hours ago, Lecka said:

In the meantime your BIL is a stable adult who — you have not said anything to make his behavior sound problematic.  

No, my BIL is a good guy.  He has shown DH an incredible amount of patience and grace throughout this process, and he's very good for my kids.

3 hours ago, happi duck said:

It sounds like your kids understand they're hiding the truth.  Maybe help them understand not to hide the truth because if their dad reacts it shows areas that need work?  Ultimately a good thing?

Are they trying to keep the peace because they are afraid of losing father or uncle?  Can they be reassured in that regard?

In that situation, we were in a public place, at DS14's track meet at school.  DS14 was clear he wanted his Dad there, but it meant that there was an audience of his friends and teammates and DS14 is pretty intensely private about his Dad.  So, he wasn't going to provoke anything. 

3 hours ago, bolt. said:

Those are really good observations!

You can explore the 'interrogation interactions'. First, I'd wonder how frequently they are happening. Once or twice a year will probably do no harm and require no strategy. Weekly is another thing entirely! I'd also wonder whether your kids do need to hide the truth, or if they just feel that feeling? Exploring why they feel that way and whether (realistically) there is anything more healthy that they could do instead could be worth contemplating.

This has been an ongoing issue, although it's always hard to predict because DH is so up and down.  I feel like we keep getting new versions of him.  This version has been home for 8 days.  He's seen the boys on 4 days.  It's come up to some degree all 4 times. 

3 hours ago, bolt. said:

For your final fear, I think more data could be helpful. How *exactly* do custody agreements work in your jurisdiction? Is it really true that 'parent A' could place binding conditions on who the kids see while they are in the care of 'parent B'? Can he actually pursue that and maybe achieve it: within the legal system, using a lawyer? (Because that sounds odd and a bit unlikely, but I'm no expert.) If he can't pursue it legally, that means your fear is mostly about how he could talk and they ways he might apply emotional pressure to you personally (not through lawyers) as the process proceeds. For that, you need some coping strategies for some poopy conversations and conflict -- but you don't need to be worried that he might actually succeed.

I don't think that, in the end, a judge is going to order my kids not to see their uncle.  Especially given that DH chooses to take my kids to their uncle's house every week.  However our current agreement does name the people that can supervise, and in doing so prevents my crazy SIL from being alone with my kids and DH, which is important to me.  

But I do think it would be way better if we could sort things out in mediation rather than a court battle, and if he's stuck on this, or uses it as a reason to seek more custody or visitation, it could still hurt me and the kids.  

3 hours ago, Ceilingfan said:

Have you guys considered  family therapy, or therapeutically supervised visitation? Or is that something for farther in the future, once he's been stable for a little while?

Right now, DH and I see a family therapist once a week without the kids.  We hope to bring the kids in at some point, but we are far from that point.  During that time we focus on parenting, not on our relationship, because I'm pretty clear that until he fixes things with the kids, he can't live in our house.  So, that needs to come first before couples counseling.  So, like we picked apart the shoe interaction why DS felt uncomfortable, and how DH could have handled it better.  And to be clear, he could have handled it much worse.  If he'd asked "Did Uncle X buy you those shoes?"  or told him "I don't want you wearing shoes your uncle bought" that would have been worse.  

I don't think my kids are ready for therapeutically supervised visitation.  Like right now, DH comes to things where the kids can interact but they don't need to much.  So, like on Sundays, we go to church.  For a while one kid wasn't even wanting to sit in a pew with him so he'd sign up to altar serve, but even when he isn't doing that, it's church no talking.  Then we go to his sister's.  If the kids need a break they ask their cousins to play, or they go for a run, or they help in the kitchen.  At dinner there are a ton of people at the table and my kids can sit next to Dad or far away.  Similarly, if he comes to a game or a meet or a concert, it's not that awkward if the kids don't talk.  And one of the 3 family nembers named in the custody order as "allowed to supervise" is in the space the whole time. 

The kids also have their own therapist.  DH also has individual and group.  I have individual. 3/4 of us have psychiatrists.  So, we are not under treated.  

4 hours ago, Mrs Tiggywinkle said:

So I also understand where your DH is coming from. 

Oh, I understand where he's coming from.  When DS2 was sick enough to need a parent in the room every minute, so I'd have to ask my FIL to put my other kids to bed?  Or when I was in a hospital room with an unconscious child, hearing about the cookies DS3 baked with Pop, or the solo DS1 sang at the Christmas concert?  Intense jealousy.  But balanced with that was the gratitude that my kids weren't alone.  That their needs were met.  I never would have said "well since I can't go to the Christmas concert, his aunts and uncles shouldn't go either." I was grateful they were there.  

 

3 hours ago, Lecka said:

I would also be really concerned if he was getting in a pattern of being nice to Son # 1 but having a problem with Son # 2.  That is honestly harmful to both kids.  

That pattern is better but not all the way fixed.  I think some of the reason why he's focused on this BIL, and not say his brother, who does similar things for my younger kid, or his father, is that this is the favored child. There are other reasons like he's not a biological relative, and that he's the only one age wise who could be their Dad, but I think that's part of it.    Even when this BIL takes DS3, which he does just not as often as his brother, DH does not object. 

Ironically DS3 really wants his Dad "back", so while one kid is backing off the other is wanting more contact.  And I'm pretty sure that they negotiate it between them.  Like DS1 would like no contact, and for his brother to have no contact.  DS3 would like to live with Dad.  So they get together and decide -- we'll invite him to this, and not to this. 

3 hours ago, fraidycat said:

I haven't read all the replies. The one thing that jumped out at me is that this BIL is your son's godfather and it sounds like he is really stepping up to that while your son's own father is incapable. I would remind DH that he made that choice and BIL took the oath with DH's consent, and he needs to work on his jealousy w/ his mental health team, not his son.

Big hugs. It's such a big muckhole of messiness. I wish I could wave a magic wand and make it better for you.

Yeah and DH knows all about godfathers stepping up because DS2 was our godson.  But that conversation is a whole trigger laden swamp.

[Lecka]

Do the boys’ visitation have to be together?  

[Drama Llama]

Just now, Lecka said:

Do the boys’ visitation have to be together?  

The 4 hours court ordered kinda does.  

But it's also very clear that they find together less stressful than apart.  They aren't always together.  For example, at the meet where the shoe thing happened, DS11 was at his own practice and just came at the very end.  This week DH went to DS11's game.  DS14 had a meet at the same time and BIL went to that, and DH spent a fair amount of the game focused on the fact that BIL was at DS14's. However that time neither kid heard it, since DS11 was on the playing field. 

 

[Drama Llama]

32 minutes ago, prairiewindmomma said:

 

I would advise building a support network outside of dh’s family. Things are very complicated and entangled.

I get that in theory.  I'm exhausted.  I'm still deep in the weeds with my own grief, over both DS2 and my marriage, and I still struggle with anxiety, depression and insomnia although they've all gotten better since we moved out.  I'm also not someone who finds making friends easy to begin with, and the idea of taking that on now is not appealing.  So, while I agree with you in theory, in reality it's hard. 

[Lecka]

I think with how last week went — it would be okay to limit to the mandated visit for a while. There’s no reason to add more if it’s not going really well.

It sounds like it’s up to you as a parent and not up to what the boys ask for.  

[Harriet Vane]

I am going to affirm your choices and instincts. You are doing all the right things and going above and beyond for others.

You know dh is paranoid and perseverating in the clinical, medical sense of those terms.

Documentation of every detail is necessary.

Make sure this is all documented with mutiple medical professionals and your lawyer.

Make sure to also document your crazy sil’s drama. It is good for the medical team to know how she is triggering him purposely. Do your best to never let her be alone with your kids.

[Drama Llama]

37 minutes ago, Harriet Vane said:

I am going to affirm your choices and instincts. You are doing all the right things and going above and beyond for others.

You know dh is paranoid and perseverating in the clinical, medical sense of those terms.

Documentation of every detail is necessary.

Make sure this is all documented with mutiple medical professionals and your lawyer.

Make sure to also document your crazy sil’s drama. It is good for the medical team to know how she is triggering him purposely. Do your best to never let her be alone with your kids.

It’s sort of funny for me to think of it as “paranoid” because it is so much better than it was. 

Everything is documented, and the people who are on the “list” to supervise know that SIL is never with my kids alone.  Fortunately she doesn’t actually seek it.  We’ve had all sorts of drama about wanting her kid to see my kids, have sleepovers with my kids, etc . . . But what she means is for me to watch her kid.  Not vice versa.  

[Faith-manor]

1 hour ago, Baseballandhockey said:

I get that in theory.  I'm exhausted.  I'm still deep in the weeds with my own grief, over both DS2 and my marriage, and I still struggle with anxiety, depression and insomnia although they've all gotten better since we moved out.  I'm also not someone who finds making friends easy to begin with, and the idea of taking that on now is not appealing.  So, while I agree with you in theory, in reality it's hard. 

I totally get that. Does your church have a support group or maybe through your therapist? Just meeting once in while to air your feelings and get support without having to put the energy into forming new relationships might be really beneficial. You don't have the bandwidth yet for all the work of finding new people for your inner circle. Hugs, hugs, hugs

[Drama Llama]

1 minute ago, Faith-manor said:

I totally get that. Does your church have a support group or maybe through your therapist? Just meeting once in while to air your feelings and get support without having to put the energy into forming new relationships might be really beneficial. You don't have the bandwidth yet for all the work of finding new people for your inner circle. Hugs, hugs, hugs

So this is the place I do that, although it’s a little risky because some people get really annoyed.  

I only attend church because I promised my husband Catholic kids.  

[chocolate-chip chooky]

I realise that this is an incredibly complex situation, but do you think it could help if your boys (eldest in particular, it seems) could have a simple script ready to say when their Dad brings up their relationship with their uncle or anything to do with their uncle?

Something that affirms their relationship, but hopefully shuts down any negativity to uncle?

"Uncle Alfonso is my uncle and my godfather. You will always be my Dad."