Ukraine

[chiguirre]

15 minutes ago, Ann.without.an.e said:

Also, how the h#ll does Russia have veto rights in the UN. You shouldn't have veto power regarding things about a war you started. BULLIES don't to veto when people try to stop their bullying. This is ludicrous. What am I missing here?

I think you're missing that when the UN was established the USSR was an ally and the first army into Berlin. Russia was recognized as the successor state when the USSR dissolved in 1991.

The UN isn't a highly functional organization, most of the time it's highly scripted and has very little capacity to act. But, it does provide a forum for nations to air their grievances and it does provide an opportunity for small nations to have some voice about global issues.  For example, Barbados' PM Mia Mottley's speech about the effects of climate change on island nations got a lot of coverage. 

[Ting Tang]

23 minutes ago, Ann.without.an.e said:

It all feels WWII ish to me and I can't even place exactly why. First, Crimea, now Ukraine. How much more do we watch him take before we realize he won't stop. 

Also, how the h#ll does Russia have veto rights in the UN. You shouldn't have veto power regarding things about a war you started. BULLIES don't to veto when people try to stop their bullying. This is ludicrous. What am I missing here?

Yeah.  I don't think Putin cares about sanctions.  I am not even sure it would matter if we replaced Russian oil and gas with American oil and gas, though at least we wouldn't continue funding him in that regard.  He is a modern day Hitler.  If you read and listen to what he's said recently, it sure feels WWIIish.  This man doesn't care about humanity.  He has no regard for it, and I feel like we are walking on eggshells because we have allowed a crazed man to accumulate money and power, and he has a lot of lethal weapons.    

[Ting Tang]

12 minutes ago, chiguirre said:

I think you're missing that when the UN was established the USSR was an ally and the first army into Berlin. Russia was recognized as the successor state when the USSR dissolved in 1991.

The UN isn't a highly functional organization, most of the time it's highly scripted and has very little capacity to act. But, it does provide a forum for nations to air their grievances and it does provide an opportunity for small nations to have some voice about global issues.  For example, Barbados' PM Mia Mottley's speech about the effects of climate change on island nations got a lot of coverage. 

True that about the UN.  If you've looked at the long list of member nations, they aren't all wonderful.  😞

[Sneezyone]

16 minutes ago, Ting Tang said:

Yeah.  I don't think Putin cares about sanctions.  I am not even sure it would matter if we replaced Russian oil and gas with American oil and gas, though at least we wouldn't continue funding him in that regard.  He is a modern day Hitler.  If you read and listen to what he's said recently, it sure feels WWIIish.  This man doesn't care about humanity.  He has no regard for it, and I feel like we are walking on eggshells because we have allowed a crazed man to accumulate money and power, and he has a lot of lethal weapons.    

Believe it or not, he is exercising some restraint right now. They have not committed the force necessary to immediately overtake Ukraine. There is reason to believe that the immediate global condemnation and public opposition at home too is staying his hand, at least for now. This isn’t a done deal and worldwide conflict can still be averted.

Edited February 26, 2022 by Sneezyone

[AnotherNewName]

4 hours ago, Katy said:

 

I didn’t realize all of this.  

Excellent summary. Thank you for sharing.

[Bootsie]

2 hours ago, bibiche said:

Please contact your Reps and Senators and the White House and urge them to ratchet up sanctions now — specifically including sanctions on all Russian oil and gas companies and disconnecting Russia from the SWIFT system. We will not and should not send troops, but we can and should make sanctions much more crippling, whether Europe joins in or not.

I don't think the US can decide to disconnect Russia from SWIFT.  SWIFT is headquartered in Belgium and follows Belgian laws. 

[Ting Tang]

9 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

Believe it or not, he is exercising some restraint right now. They have not committed the force necessary to immediately overtake Ukraine. There is reason to believe that the immediate global condemnation and public opposition at home too is staying his hand, at least for now. This isn’t a done deal and worldwide conflict can still be averted.

That is true.  I was wondering if he was waiting to see if we would respond differently to all of this.  Unfortunately, I still don't feel this is going to go in Ukraine's favor.  I hated seeing the picture of the Russian tank roll over that car.  I just feel so bad for everyone there, even if their own government has some corruption issues (don't they all).  

[bibiche]

11 minutes ago, Bootsie said:

I don't think the US can decide to disconnect Russia from SWIFT.  SWIFT is headquartered in Belgium and follows Belgian laws. 

This is true that the US can not do it alone. But pressure can be exerted.

[Pam in CT]

re veto power

1 hour ago, Ann.without.an.e said:

It all feels WWII ish to me and I can't even place exactly why. First, Crimea, now Ukraine. How much more do we watch him take before we realize he won't stop. 

Also, how the h#ll does Russia have veto rights in the UN. You shouldn't have veto power regarding things about a war you started. BULLIES don't get to veto when people try to stop their bullying. This is ludicrous. What am I missing here?

(I understand and share your frustration with the difficulties in the Security Council. That Russia ended up standing alone -- even though the resolution didn't pass -- is, in Security Council terms, as close to a win as, given the structure, could have been hoped for. From Russia's point of view, no one came affirmatively to their defense; they were left isolated.  But at the same time, from the POV of Ukraine and NATO, it is mighty frustrating that a resolution so bland couldn't pass. The larger an international structure is, the more frustrating it also it.)

 

Bullies ALWAYS get to veto when people try to stop their bullying.

That's the defining characteristic, about bullies. Bullies don't GAF about other people.

[Spy Car]

30 minutes ago, bibiche said:

This is true that the US can not do it alone. But pressure can be exerted.

It seems that the last holdouts--including the right-wing populist Hungarian PM Viktor Orban (who was widely seen as the biggest impediment to sweeping anti-Putin sanctions)--have gotten onboard with heavy economic sanctions including expelling Russia from SWIFT.

When Putin loses Orban, you know his goose is cooked 

Orban's statement (delivered in English):

Hungary made clear that we support all the sanctions, so we will block nothing, so what the prime ministers of the European Union are able to agree, we accept it and we support it

If it doesn't happen today, booting Russia from SWIFT will happen as soon as an attack on Kyiv gets bloodier.

Putin miscalculated.

Bill

[Murphy101]

6 hours ago, Katy said:

 

I didn’t realize all of this.  

Wow. That’s an excellent piece. Thank you so much for sharing.  I’ve been trying to explain why Ukraine should be important to America and American allies and I think I will share this on my FB.  

[Murphy101]

1 hour ago, Spy Car said:

It seems that the last holdouts--including the right-wing populist Hungarian PM Viktor Orban (who was widely seen as the biggest impediment to sweeping anti-Putin sanctions)--have gotten onboard with heavy economic sanctions including expelling Russia from SWIFT.

When Putin loses Orban, you know his goose is cooked 

Orban's statement (delivered in English):

Hungary made clear that we support all the sanctions, so we will block nothing, so what the prime ministers of the European Union are able to agree, we accept it and we support it

If it doesn't happen today, booting Russia from SWIFT will happen as soon as an attack on Kyiv gets bloodier.

Putin miscalculated.

Bill

I’m very nervous that Putin has not miscalculated.  I think he will be angry about Hungary, but I find it unlikely he didn’t calculate for the possibility. How had will the sanctions really hit Putin? Especially if he manages to unite with China?

[Murphy101]

2 hours ago, Sneezyone said:

Believe it or not, he is exercising some restraint right now. They have not committed the force necessary to immediately overtake Ukraine. There is reason to believe that the immediate global condemnation and public opposition at home too is staying his hand, at least for now. This isn’t a done deal and worldwide conflict can still be averted.

I agree Ww3 isn’t a done deal yet. But I don’t think he is exercising restraint. I think he is strategizing. Restraint is not his sop.

[Spy Car]

6 minutes ago, Murphy101 said:

I’m very nervous that Putin has not miscalculated.  I think he will be angry about Hungary, but I find it unlikely he didn’t calculate for the possibility. How had will the sanctions really hit Putin? Especially if he manages to unite with China?

The proposed sanctions will hit very hard. Meanwhile, Ukraine is being resupplied with weapons. Even Germany has ditched their long-time opposition to sending weapons.

And the Ukrainians have guts and brains. This is not going to turn out well for Putin. He's unified the free world against him.

Bill

 

[Bootsie]

1 hour ago, bibiche said:

This is true that the US can not do it alone. But pressure can be exerted.

It seems to me that other steps would be more effective than focusing on SWIFT.  Place an embargo on oil rather than allowing companies to purchasing Russian oil but say that the SWIFT system cannot be used to make payment.  I don't know what the number of Europeans and US citizens in Russia are ow, but cutting off SWIFT means that these people cannot get access to their financial assets, use an ATM machine, receive aid from home to get out of the country, etc.

 

[Pam in CT]

re difficulty in finding sanctions that affect the leadership without punishing ordinary people...

7 minutes ago, Bootsie said:

It seems to me that other steps would be more effective than focusing on SWIFT.  Place an embargo on oil rather than allowing companies to purchasing Russian oil but say that the SWIFT system cannot be used to make payment.  I don't know what the number of Europeans and US citizens in Russia are ow, but cutting off SWIFT means that these people cannot get access to their financial assets, use an ATM machine, receive aid from home to get out of the country, etc.

 

... particularly in countries in which the ordinary people have no rights/ participation in the process of determining their leadership/ are thrown in jail or worse for expressing any kind of dissent.

(Same is true in Iran and elsewhere.)

It is very difficult.  No easy or Good options here, only a menu of hard choices all of which have unintended consequences.

Praying that Putin finds a face-saving off ramp. 

[Ann.without.an.e]

12 minutes ago, Spy Car said:

The proposed sanctions will hit very hard. Meanwhile, Ukraine is being resupplied with weapons. Even Germany has ditched their long-time opposition to sending weapons.

And the Ukrainians have guts and brains. This is not going to turn out well for Putin. He's unified the free world against him.

Bill

 

I have no idea how all of this will play out but I hope you're right

[Ann.without.an.e]

1 minute ago, Pam in CT said:

 

Praying that Putin finds a face-saving off ramp. 

I think it is too late for that. The question is, does he stop now and leave with his tail between his legs or does he go full force since he's already made of mess of things anyway? 

[Murphy101]

17 minutes ago, Spy Car said:

The proposed sanctions will hit very hard. Meanwhile, Ukraine is being resupplied with weapons. Even Germany has ditched their long-time opposition to sending weapons.

And the Ukrainians have guts and brains. This is not going to turn out well for Putin. He's unified the free world against him.

Bill

 

Oh I don’t think it will go well for Putin in the end. It’s the journey to that end that worries me. 

[Pam in CT]

re facing saving off ramp

1 minute ago, Ann.without.an.e said:

I think it is too late for that. The question is, does he stop now and leave with his tail between his legs or does he go full force since he's already made of mess of things anyway? 

I don't think it's too late for that.  I fervently hope it's not too late for that.

Because I do not believe that Putin will leave with tail between his legs. If his only choice is between going out with a whimper, or going out with a bang -

 

 

 

-Fervently praying it is not too late for a face-saving off ramp.

[Bootsie]

My sister's company has 40 employees in Ukraine, one of which is one of her teammates.  The company is helping those who can leave the country to leave.  Her teammate, however, is male and is not allowed to leave.  She knows he has made it out of Kyiv to his family's summer house outside of the city.  

She also has colleagues in Russia and is not sure what is happening there.

[Ann.without.an.e]

Our friends finally made it to Moldova, thankfully. They had to watch many men hug their families and walk the other way. Some men who don't want to abandon their family to fight are splitting their family up in order to go through the checkpoint. If a man is with his kids and no wife, they don't really make an issue of it and they let them through. His wife simply goes though separately a little before or after. The Moldovans aren't really making an issue of much at the checkpoint. They are letting some men of age go through if he's with his family, they aren't forcing men to stay in Ukraine. ETA: I think most of the men who are staying are doing so by choice to fight for their country. 

Edited February 26, 2022 by Ann.without.an.e

[chiguirre]

2 hours ago, Spy Car said:

When Putin loses Orban, you know his goose is cooked 

 

Hungarian elections are on April 3 and Orban is finally facing a united opposition.

Tick, tock.

[Spy Car]

Link to Twitter post that shows the aftermath of Swedish anti-tank missiles used by Ukrainian forces.

Bill

 

 

 

 

[Terabith]

Pornhub has blocked Russian IP addresses

[chiguirre]

6 minutes ago, Terabith said:

Pornhub has blocked Russian IP addresses

That's gonna sting!

[Terabith]

And the hacker group Anonymous has declared cyber war on Russia.  

[Pawz4me]

18 minutes ago, Terabith said:

And the hacker group Anonymous has declared cyber war on Russia.  

DH and I were talking about this last night, and on one hand I want to applaud them but OTOH it worries me. What if Russia construes something Anonymous does as a cyber attack from a NATO (or NATO aligned) country?

[SKL]

Impressive how the non-military Ukrainians in Kiev and even in other countries are fighting.

Dare I hope?

[Murphy101]

24 minutes ago, Pawz4me said:

DH and I were talking about this last night, and on one hand I want to applaud them but OTOH it worries me. What if Russia construes something Anonymous does as a cyber attack from a NATO (or NATO aligned) country?

Or what if the US or England or whoever ticks them off next? This is the hazard of vigilantes. 

[chiguirre]

41 minutes ago, Pawz4me said:

DH and I were talking about this last night, and on one hand I want to applaud them but OTOH it worries me. What if Russia construes something Anonymous does as a cyber attack from a NATO (or NATO aligned) country?

That would be some industrial grade hypocrisy given that they give their own hackers free rein to attack the West.

 

[Pawz4me]

His bio says he’s with Reuters, but I’d say take with a grain of salt unless/until confirmed by multiple sources—

ETA: CNN now confirming

Edited February 26, 2022 by Pawz4me

[Pawz4me]

Link to White House statement regarding Swift

 

[Lecka]

I think it would be a shocking inditement of the Russian Army if they can’t defeat Ukraine militarily.  I don’t know about — politically or defeating an insurgence.  But just a military match up.  It would be shocking because Russia is supposed to have a good Army.  I think maybe (?) Russia has been trying to limit civilian targets etc to try to have it look better and pretend they are going in to do something noble.

It is going to blow my mind if their military doesn’t perform.  
 

In my mind they should dominate with tanks and air superiority, and they should “own the night” with night vision.  
 

I would love to be wrong!  

[TravelingChris]

I was reading a piece about how Putin is furious.  This is not going the way he thought it would.  They thought they would be done by now.  They are also running out of munitions and apparently it will take 3-6 months for more to be made.  And the strikes against civilian targets are deliberate, not mistakes.  Apparently, he thought the population would just give up very quickly,  He also didn't think that the world would basically be against him and this war-- because apparently, while some countries thought that he could claim the Eastern area, almost all of those countries are against what he has actually done.  And not just countries- people from his own country too.

 

[SKL]

Part of me wonders whether some of the Russian soldiers aren't all that happy to be sent into civilian areas either.

[regentrude]

13 minutes ago, SKL said:

Part of me wonders whether some of the Russian soldiers aren't all that happy to be sent into civilian areas either.

There are news reports of the Ukranian ambassador Markarova saying in her press briefing she was just informed that a batallion of Russian soldiers surrendered to Ukrainians because they weren't aware that they had been brought to Ukraine to kill people. 

It seems verified that Markarova really said this; I have not been able to find substantiation that the incident actually occurred. ( when something sounds too good to be true, it's always wise to be suspicious. This is an incident that would be fantastic for propaganda purposes, so I would like to see it verified)

Edited February 26, 2022 by regentrude

[Spy Car]

4 minutes ago, regentrude said:

There are news reports of the Ukranian ambassador Markarova saying in her press briefing she was just informed that a batallion of Russian soldiers surrendered to Ukrainians because they weren't aware that they had been brought to Ukraine to kill people. 

It seems verified that Markarova really said this; I have not been able to find substantiation that the incident actually occurred. ( when something sounds too good to be true, it's always wise to be suspicious. This is an incident that would be fantastic for propaganda purposes, so I would like to see it verified)

I've also read reports that Ukrainian forces have allowed there Russian prisoners to call their mothers back home, "Mom we were lied to."

Bill

 

[Ann.without.an.e]

Just now, Spy Car said:

I've also read reports that Ukrainian forces have allowed there Russian prisoners to call their mothers back home, "Mom we were lied to."

Bill

 

Which will just fuel the issues in Russia regarding protestors etc. 

I hope the protestors continue. It is difficult to feel noble fighting a war when your own people are revolting. 

[Spy Car]

Just now, Ann.without.an.e said:

Which will just fuel the issues in Russia regarding protestors etc. 

I hope the protestors continue. It is difficult to feel noble fighting a war when your own people are revolting. 

My greatest hope when this is over is that we will see a free Russia in addition to a free Ukraine.

Bill

 

[Ting Tang]

2 hours ago, Terabith said:

Pornhub has blocked Russian IP addresses

I saw a headline bar owners are dumping Russian vodka.  lol

[TravelingChris]

56 minutes ago, SKL said:

Part of me wonders whether some of the Russian soldiers aren't all that happy to be sent into civilian areas either.

I was discussing with dh about the Russian protests against the war and how if we had a mad dictator who decided our military should invade Canada for some bogus reason how we wouldn't like it at all and neither would the military,  Because as a country, we feel pretty closely attuned to Canadians- and apparently a lot of Russians feel that way about the Ukrainians too.

[TravelingChris]

49 minutes ago, regentrude said:

There are news reports of the Ukranian ambassador Markarova saying in her press briefing she was just informed that a batallion of Russian soldiers surrendered to Ukrainians because they weren't aware that they had been brought to Ukraine to kill people. 

It seems verified that Markarova really said this; I have not been able to find substantiation that the incident actually occurred. ( when something sounds too good to be true, it's always wise to be suspicious. This is an incident that would be fantastic for propaganda purposes, so I would like to see it verified)

If that is true, that is a significant event.  But I have been wondering why some troops are on the borders and not advancing when the objectives haven't been met.  And I was wondering if maybe some troops or commanders are rebelling or are they unable to move because of bad equipment.

[freesia]

31 minutes ago, Ting Tang said:

I saw a headline bar owners are dumping Russian vodka.  lol

This reminds me of how my mom and her friends (ages 4-5) used to kill Japanese Beetles to help the war effort during WW2. lol

[TravelingChris]

45 minutes ago, Spy Car said:

My greatest hope when this is over is that we will see a free Russia in addition to a free Ukraine.

Bill

 

So is mine.

[Ann.without.an.e]

The NY Post says if Ukraine can hold for 10 days, Russia has no hope. They don't have enough supplies and their resources have been cut, meanwhile Ukraine is getting help from more and more countries. I'm just so glad to see more and more allies jump in and help.

 

https://nypost.com/2022/02/26/putin-fumes-in-lair-as-ukraine-proves-hard-to-conquer/amp/

Edited February 27, 2022 by Ann.without.an.e

[TravelingChris]

I would like to recommend a book for anyone wanting to learn more about how Russia was moving to this point.  It is called "Red Notice- A True Story of High Finance, Murder, and One Man's Fight for Justice" by Bill Browder and it was published in 2015.  This guy was a finance guy who started first advising/investing with other newly open Eastern European countries in 1990 and started advising/investing in Russia in 1992.  It was a fascinating read and explained a lot how the oligarchs got their enormous wealth, how incredibly corrupt Russia was and still is, and its murderous ways too.  This man started out as an American financier and ended up as an activist against Putin.  The book also made me sad because the law that was eventually passed had almost unanimous votes in both the Senate and the House.

[Ting Tang]

26 minutes ago, Ann.without.an.e said:

The NY Post says if Ukraine can hold for 10 days, Russia has no hope. They don't have enough supplies and their resources have been cut, meanwhile Ukraine is getting help from more and more countries. I'm just so glad to see more and more allies jump in and help.

 

https://nypost.com/2022/02/26/putin-fumes-in-lair-as-ukraine-proves-hard-to-conquer/amp/

I am praying Putin doesn't go off the deep end (relatively speaking - his deep end) and they can hold.  But it is going to be a very long 10 days.  😞  

[Condessa]

I’m on a Facebook page for parents of children with gliomas that has many international members, and they’re saying Russia is targeting hospitals.  There was a picture of pediatric cancer patients sitting in the hospital basement as the hospital was under bombardment.

[Jaybee]

President Zelenskyy's speech to the Russian people. Very moving. I hope it gets widespread attention in Russia.