Teen Culture

[Melissa Louise]

Just now, WildflowerMom said:

Well, as long as it's 'those other' few kids, no one gives a damn.  

I don't quite get the subtext here. Can you expand? 

[Shoeless]

Just now, Melissa Louise said:

Twitter is my guilty pleasure/addiction, and it's so bad for me. 

 

I had a twitter account for about 10 minutes. I asked *one* question of a podcast creator and had my head bitten off for being insensitive. My question was "Do you have plans for more episodes of this podcast? It's really good!".  That wasn't ok to ask that day, and woe unto me. 

Forget it. Not worth the bother. 

[WildflowerMom]

1 minute ago, Melissa Louise said:

I don't quite get the subtext here. Can you expand? 

I was in agreement with you.    Perhaps I said it wrong...  As long as people (in general) don't see ill effects in their own kids, everything is well and good.     No matter that many other kids *are* having ill effects, as long as it doesn't affect them and their house, all is well, their parenting is superior, their kids make better decisions, etc.   

[Sneezyone]

15 minutes ago, MissLemon said:

My sole reason for keeping fb is because it's the only way to reach a few people or businesses that kiddo has connection with. They don't have a phone; just fb messenger. I find that very frustrating.  I have a couple of hobby groups on fb, but they are focused on a specific hobby, so they tend not to go off the rails.  I let kiddo use my fb to look at animal pictures from the local zoo and where I used to work.  I keep my feed very curated.  

But otherwise, no instagram, no twitter, no reddit, no tik tok, no whatsapp, no pinterest, no goodreads, no youtube, no discord.  There are too many dark and icky corridors he could wander down. I can't keep up with all of them, so we've made it a blanket policy that we aren't using these services, period.  (Youtube is allowed for specific videos, but there's no carte blanche to while the day away on youtube).     

I don't have anything but this forum and FB too (which I use for family and sewing) so maybe that's why I don't find myself wandering down dark alleys or coming into contact with these issues? No Twitter. No Snappychat. No WhatsApp (I used it for our time in Bahrain tho). No Instagram. DS uses YouTube to watch his Cory Kenshin vids and that's about it. I've tried to encourage my kids to follow my lead but don't have any enforcement mechanisms other than taking phones/computers (which they need for school so I haven't done really that either. I am not that special. At the end of the day, it is perfectly appropriate, no NECESSARY, to ask about and seek information about the ACTUAL PREVALENCE of these issues. How else can one accurately assess risk/need?

ETA: Quite frankly, I find that consistent position rather ironic given the outsize importance some place on the *potential* risk of harm to kids learning accurate history. Actual harm (and evidence thereof) is consistently de-emphasized over potential harm. What gives?

Edited December 18, 2021 by Sneezyone

[Melissa Louise]

3 minutes ago, Teaching3bears said:

Can you explain this? I’m interested in why you say this.

Sure. 

Around, say, 2000, it seemed like many Millennials basically had an understanding that sexism wasn't cool. They didn't really indulge in it. Lots of the Millennial marriages I know are very egalitarian, for example. 

Some time post 2010, there was an online backlash that seems to be associated with Gen Z. Sexualised threats towards women, women-specific slurs, dismissive and ugly attitudes towards women became pretty mainstream online.

At the same time, the idea that women, in fact, have privilege over categories of men, arose. Women as oppressor etc. And at the same time as that? The rise of an idea that 'woman' isn't a category in material reality at all. That anyone can do or be 'woman', because it's just a set of social stereotypes. Women's experiences being renamed as 'peoples experiences'.

At the same time as that? Attitudes in young men going backwards . More young men endorsing sexist ideas. 

And over the same time period? Rape virtually decriminalized.

 

[Melissa Louise]

9 minutes ago, MissLemon said:

I had a twitter account for about 10 minutes. I asked *one* question of a podcast creator and had my head bitten off for being insensitive. My question was "Do you have plans for more episodes of this podcast? It's really good!".  That wasn't ok to ask that day, and woe unto me. 

Forget it. Not worth the bother. 

I'm fully addicted. I read more than post. I'm gonna get the book you recommended. I want to break free! (Just not from Spotify). 

[Shoeless]

2 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

I don't have anything but this forum and FB too (which I use for family and sewing) so maybe that's why I don't find myself wandering down dark alleys or coming into contact with these issues? No Twitter. No Snappychat. No WhatsApp (I used it for our time in Bahrain tho). No Instagram. DS uses YouTube to watch his Cory Kenshin vids and that's about it. I've tried to encourage my kids to follow my lead but don't have any enforcement mechanisms other than taking phones/computers (which they need for school so I haven't done really that either. I am not that special. At the end of the day, it is perfectly appropriate, no NECESSARY, to ask about and seek information about the ACTUAL PREVALENCE of these issues.

The icky stuff I keep running into when I poke around social media is general bullying and asshole behavior. I'm truly less concerned about DS13 finding porn or pro-eating disorder material than I am about the toxic and emotionally dysregulated way adults interact on sm.  We had an incident where DS13 went off on someone in an online game he was playing.  It was completely inappropriate and we took away access to online environments where putting everyone on blast was the norm. 

[KSera]

16 minutes ago, MissLemon said:

Ten Arguments for Deleting Your Social Media Accounts

I'm part way through this book. I had to set it aside for awhile because it was making me stressed. I got halfway through it and started deleting old accounts. Like, I technically had a pinterest account, but I hadn't used it in years, so away it went. 

Ooh,  i’ll have to look at this one, though I think it will be preaching to the choir. I really only go here, and then I read certain people on Twitter, but I don’t have an account there so I don’t post anything at all.  I do still have a Pinterest account, but I don’t use it. That would be a good one for me to delete. 

9 minutes ago, WildflowerMom said:

I was in agreement with you.    Perhaps I said it wrong...  As long as people (in general) don't see ill effects in their own kids, everything is well and good.     No matter that many other kids *are* having ill effects, as long as it doesn't affect them and their house, all is well, their parenting is superior, their kids make better decisions, etc.   

Yes.  And I admit that I think I fell into this kind of belief pattern before my kids reached their very late teens. Everything was going so swimmingly well, and I think I tended to pat myself on the back for it 😳.  

8 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

 At the end of the day, it is perfectly appropriate, no NECESSARY, to ask about and seek information about the ACTUAL PREVALENCE of these issues.

I’ll find you some articles later, as a number of these things have been addressed in the media. I’m drive by reading and posting on this thread while cleaning bathrooms 😬. 

[Janeway]

21 minutes ago, Teaching3bears said:

Can you explain this? I’m interested in why you say this.

There is hate all over the place. Women are being called Karens if they dare speak up for themselves or anyone else. Women are laughed at and mocked and there are no manners or decency. It is hunting season on women these days.

Edited December 18, 2021 by Janeway

[Sneezyone]

2 minutes ago, MissLemon said:

The icky stuff I keep running into when I poke around social media is general bullying and asshole behavior. I'm truly less concerned about DS13 finding porn or pro-eating disorder material than I am about the toxic and emotionally dysregulated way adults interact on sm.  We had an incident where DS13 went off on someone in an online game he was playing.  It was completely inappropriate and we took away access to online environments where putting everyone on blast was the norm. 

ITA. My biggest concern is adults.

[Melissa Louise]

@MissLemon

You've inspired me to log out of here for a while once the holidays start.

I'm going to do the same with Twitter. Thank you! 

[KSera]

5 minutes ago, KSera said:

 

I’ll find you some articles later, as a number of these things have been addressed in the media. 

Very recent one on the recent rise in eating disorders to start with:

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle/2786185

eta: and this is a widespread trend. Australia and the UK have had terrible issues with not having beds for even very seriously ill people with eating disorders.

Edited December 18, 2021 by KSera

[AmandaVT]

7 minutes ago, Janeway said:

There is hate all over the place. Women are being called Karens if they dare speak up for themselves or anyone else. Women are laughed at and mocked and there are no manners or decency. It is hunting season on women these days.

That's not where the Karen thing came from.

[thewellerman]

I've been reading along and thinking, and I really appreciate the discussion.  It is very helpful to me.  😊

[Shoeless]

3 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

@MissLemon

You've inspired me to log out of here for a while once the holidays start.

I'm going to do the same with Twitter. Thank you! 

I plan on going very low-profile in February, when everything is gray and bleak in the US. People gripe and groan on sm all month long, and it makes me weary. 

Enjoy your time off! Read some good books! ❤️ 

[KSera]

Functional Tic disorders:

https://tourette.org/rising-incidence-of-functional-tic-like-behaviors/
 

https://health.clevelandclinic.org/tiktok-causing-tics-in-teen-girls/

 

[Melissa Louise]

7 minutes ago, AmandaVT said:

That's not where the Karen thing came from.

Its not where it came from, but it's where it's gone. 

[Terabith]

53 minutes ago, KSera said:

Oh, I totally agree with you on the furry litter box thing. I think that is way, way out there and not some thing people are generally dealing with. I thought we had moved on to other things, particularly current social contagions like late onset tic disorders, multiple identity systems, cutting, eating disorders, etc.

Eta: and I’m not saying those things affect the majority, but that the numbers they are affecting is significant enough to be impacting a very measurable percentage of families.

Speaking of the tic disorders in particular, neurologist had a suggestion that I had not considered but that sounds very plausible:  that during the pandemic, teens' sensory systems did not get nearly enough stimulation.  Not enough stimulation or exercise, and that in some kids, especially kids in the whole ASD phenotype, sensory understimulation can come out as tics. The line between tics and stims is a pretty fine one.   

I have no idea if that meshes with your kid's experiences, but it did with mine, who seems to have a lot in common with yours.  

[Sneezyone]

4 minutes ago, KSera said:

Functional Tic disorders:

https://tourette.org/rising-incidence-of-functional-tic-like-behaviors/
 

https://health.clevelandclinic.org/tiktok-causing-tics-in-teen-girls/

 

Thank you. These are helpful. They all seem to be Pandemic related in time. Do you think that's related to the depression/isolation of being at home or the increased use of SM? That wasn't clear from the abstracts/reports.

[Terabith]

2 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

Thank you. These are helpful. They all seem to be Pandemic related in time. Do you think that's related to the depression/isolation of being at home or the increased use of SM? That wasn't clear from the abstracts/reports.

From my reading, they don't really know why, and it's hard to separate them in aggregate.  

[1234]

My dc don’t do social media. Tried it once when teens, found it crazy toxic and really never went back. Occasionally they make a fake profile to see something, pass it around to all of us, then delete because they’re quickly reminded how awful it is. One is transgender and the other is non binary anyway.

Oldest was the only transgender kid in his huge high school when he came out so it wasn’t some contagion or cool thing to do. They’re both at a big state uni and definitely see more people like themselves there but it isn’t something taking over, at least around us, like some say here.

I know of furries but we’ve never ever seen one except at comic con and neither dc know anyone who is one. We also don’t have anyone in our world with multiple identities or new tics.

IDK, I read here and it’s made to seem so gloom and doom but in my real world that’s just not happening (and this isn’t just one geographical area I’ve been in this whole time either, it’s just not been my reality anywhere).

[Sneezyone]

3 minutes ago, Terabith said:

From my reading, they don't really know why, and it's hard to separate them in aggregate.  

Thanks. It wasn't clear to me either but I wasn't sure if I was missing something.

[rebcoola]

The main thing I notice since my oldest went to high school is the intense need to label everyone's sexuality in detail.  She is not really interested in anything and people grill her all the time so are you A -sexual, demi-sexual.  It's a constant topic.  Otherwise it seems really not different than when I was in high school as a millennial.

[GoodGrief3]

2 hours ago, KSera said:

Functional Tic disorders:

https://tourette.org/rising-incidence-of-functional-tic-like-behaviors/
 

https://health.clevelandclinic.org/tiktok-causing-tics-in-teen-girls/

 

My then-college student developed what appeared to be motor tics suddenly (like seemingly overnight) in her junior year. She is not social media/online gaming enamored at all. She was eventually diagnosed with functional neurological disorder (info at fndhope.org usually, though it looks like the website might be down at the moment), and I've come to realize that it is relatively common, and takes many forms, which can include paralysis/seizures/blindness. In retrospect, I realize that my now-deceased mother had a form of it. It's poorly understood, but certainly stress reactions are part of the equation.

We found an excellent program in Michigan, and she learned to control the reaction. It was quite disabling up to that point though. She had to have accommodations from disability services to have a notetaker in class, and had to have extra time for exams. She had to give up playing keyboard in the band that she loved. Driving was tricky. She can do those things again now, but the problem is always just under the surface.

Edited December 18, 2021 by GoodGrief3

[GoodGrief3]

39 minutes ago, Terabith said:

Speaking of the tic disorders in particular, neurologist had a suggestion that I had not considered but that sounds very plausible:  that during the pandemic, teens' sensory systems did not get nearly enough stimulation.  Not enough stimulation or exercise, and that in some kids, especially kids in the whole ASD phenotype, sensory understimulation can come out as tics. The line between tics and stims is a pretty fine one.   

I have no idea if that meshes with your kid's experiences, but it did with mine, who seems to have a lot in common with yours.  

Just for the record, since I just wrote about this, understimulation was/is definitely not the case for my daughter, either before or after the pandemic. In her case, the initial breaking point seemed to be a rather intense engineering project that required multiple all nighters and mental overload. She has always been exceptionally physically and mentally active.

[LMD]

1 hour ago, Melissa Louise said:

Sure. 

Around, say, 2000, it seemed like many Millennials basically had an understanding that sexism wasn't cool. They didn't really indulge in it. Lots of the Millennial marriages I know are very egalitarian, for example. 

Some time post 2010, there was an online backlash that seems to be associated with Gen Z. Sexualised threats towards women, women-specific slurs, dismissive and ugly attitudes towards women became pretty mainstream online.

At the same time, the idea that women, in fact, have privilege over categories of men, arose. Women as oppressor etc. And at the same time as that? The rise of an idea that 'woman' isn't a category in material reality at all. That anyone can do or be 'woman', because it's just a set of social stereotypes. Women's experiences being renamed as 'peoples experiences'.

At the same time as that? Attitudes in young men going backwards . More young men endorsing sexist ideas. 

And over the same time period? Rape virtually decriminalized.

 

Yep

Add in ubiquitous and violent p0rn, onlyfans, being prostituted as 'empowerment', men getting away with literal rape and murder because 'she liked it rough,' the abysmal rates of sexual and domestic violence convictions - may as well be legal.

In the last 10 years, 'woman' has become an esoteric experience that mostly males seem to have, and females are just disembodied utilitarian parts. Birthing person, people with a cervix, v@gina havers, chest feeders, menstruators.

 

Generally, I recognise the description upthread of the drama/rescue cycle. And the enormous over representation of lgbt and mental health identities. I'm seeing 10 and 11 year olds (plural) 'playing' with cutting and none of them want to be boring and cis.

Honestly, I'm heartbroken.

[Tanaqui]

I see it didn't take long for the usual, hateful transphobia to rear its ugly head.

[Sneezyone]

46 minutes ago, Tanaqui said:

I see it didn't take long for the usual, hateful transphobia to rear its ugly head.

This makes me sad b/c I want to base my decisions WRT what to support/oppose on evidence and prevalence not anecdotes. To do that, I need to understand the issue (and if it's a widespread issue) and interrogate its causes. Unlike issues decades in the making, with long track records, this stuff is new to me. I don't feel free to do that without attack.

Edited December 18, 2021 by Sneezyone

[LMD]

Unbelievable

I said not one word about trans people

I am talking about women, and how women get a reaction somewhere between scolding (case in point) and rape/death threats for daring to insinuate that female humans should have the audacity to recognise themselves as distinct from male humans. 

No wonder you can't or won't see the swelling misogyny.

11 minutes ago, Tanaqui said:

I see it didn't take long for the usual, hateful transphobia to rear its ugly head.

Edited December 18, 2021 by LMD

[Sneezyone]

2 hours ago, LMD said:

Unbelievable

I said not one word about trans people

I am talking about women, and how women get a reaction somewhere between scolding (case in point) and rape/death threats for daring to insinuate that female humans should have the audacity to recognise themselves as distinct from male humans. 

No wonder you can't or won't see the swelling misogyny.

Misogyny is not new. Gloria Jean Watkins died this week. Her whole body of work was around the ways in which misogyny cannot be divorced from racism. Misogyny is NOT new. What's different is that some women were not aware/are feeling it more than in the past. The rest never knew it ever went away...because it didn't.

Edited December 18, 2021 by Sneezyone

[LMD]

I'm not sure what you're trying to insinuate about me, sneezy, but I don't believe I ever said misogyny went away or is new. That doesn't mean I won't see or say it when it rears itself in new ways and new costumes. Being immediately policed by accusations is pretty demonstrative.

[Sneezyone]

2 hours ago, LMD said:

I'm not sure what you're trying to insinuate about me, sneezy, but I don't believe I ever said misogyny went away or is new. That doesn't mean I won't see or say it when it rears itself in new ways and new costumes. Being immediately policed by accusations is pretty demonstrative.

Actually, no, being IMMEDIATELY interrogated (by me at least) is more about my own innate skepticism and fact-based orientation than a demonstration of misogyny. I don't see a new/swellling/swollen costume at all. It's same ol' same ol' to me. Like it or not, I AM A WOMAN TOO and my experiences are no more illustrative than your own. 

 ETA: for those unfamiliar with bell hooks and her scholarship, which influenced folks like Kimberle Crenshaw: 

 

Edited December 18, 2021 by Sneezyone

[Sneezyone]

2 hours ago, AmandaVT said:

That's not where the Karen thing came from.

THX. It came from HYPERSENSITIVE women weaponizing armed 'authorities' to enforce their will/preferred outcomes. I have been accused of such tendencies (not behavior) by my own kids. They're not wrong. None of my enforcement preferences/issues involve guns tho...just the HOA.

Edited December 18, 2021 by Sneezyone

[Janeway]

13 hours ago, AmandaVT said:

That's not where the Karen thing came from.

It is not where it came from, but it is where it has gone.

[Shoeless]

21 hours ago, Doodlebug said:

A large online social group of teens with no dominant shared interest and who have some cover of anonymity is nowhere I want to be.  I learned that from DS.  😉 

From his experience, online social groups of teens which grant some level of anonymity and no dominant shared interest tend to devolve into emotional rescue missions.  The cycle of break-down and rescue involves a great deal of emotional investment from the group and is a cycle that spirals only in one direction as needs must heighten to capture the hearts of those in the group.  

However, where online social groups are grounded in shared interests, and with friends he knows in real life, DS has found real enjoyment there.  

So, I think where any teen can remove themselve from a generic idea of "teen culture" and find their niche interests, that's foundational for healthy relationships be they online or irl.  However, social engagement online is heavily diluted by DS's other interests.  That matters, too.

I've seen this dynamic in adult social groups, too. I am a member of a few fb groups related to my hobbies. The groups that generally stay positive and healthy are focused fairly narrowly on the hobby (miniature needlepoint, sewing projects from recycled/reclaimed fabrics, hydroponic gardening). There is also a natural infusion of new material to discuss (Look at this project I just finished! What's wrong with my cucumber plants; they don't look healthy, etc)

The groups with a higher tendency to become emotional rescue missions are the fitness groups.  There's an unhealthy cycle I see happening with some posters in the group. I was having trouble putting my finger on why I felt uneasy in these groups, but the break down/rescue cycle sums it up.

Off to remove myself from a few more fb groups...

[Farrar]

The thing is... this is the sort of thread I'd like to participate in because I have teens, they do use social media to varying extents, I did curate heavily when they were younger and less and less as they got older, but still had a ton of open conversations. They do hang with kids of all sorts. I have a lot of thoughts about younger end Gen Z culture and what it looks like and about how it's not somehow "scarier" or "less healthy" than other generations. 

But these threads inevitably become about a few transphobic voices ranting about this one issue and attacking everyone else. These voices are LOUD on this board and amplify each other much more than in other circles I'm in. And it's honestly just not bleeping worth it to try and talk about anything else when they start to take over a thread.

[MercyA]

You all must be reading into people's comments a lot more than I do. I thought we were having an interesting and respectful discussion. 🤷‍♀️

[SanDiegoMom]

20 hours ago, Farrar said:

The thing is... this is the sort of thread I'd like to participate in because I have teens, they do use social media to varying extents, I did curate heavily when they were younger and less and less as they got older, but still had a ton of open conversations. They do hang with kids of all sorts. I have a lot of thoughts about younger end Gen Z culture and what it looks like and about how it's not somehow "scarier" or "less healthy" than other generations. 

But these threads inevitably become about a few transphobic voices ranting about this one issue and attacking everyone else. These voices are LOUD on this board and amplify each other much more than in other circles I'm in. And it's honestly just not bleeping worth it to try and talk about anything else when they start to take over a thread.

I think we are all looking through things from our individual lens and experiences.  So one might see a positive impacts on teens -- wider LGBTQ acceptance, greater experimentation with gender, being more in touch with mental health issues and willing to talk about their struggles -- while someone else might see it as debilitating for their own kid -- hyperfocus on their mental health problems without a counter balance of physical and in person activities, and a hyperfixation on labeling oneself by what they are rather than what they do or are interested in.  My kids are in a group (though have been less active recently) where one girl is gay, one is non-binary, one girl ids as trans, my son ids as trans, and my daughter ids as bisexual.  Is this statistically likely? Well, it honestly wouldn't matter if it's just a phase and they are all being typical teens, identifying into and out of groups (though I feel it is healthier to identify oneself as what your hobbies and interests are, such as the band kid, the dance kid, the drama kid, etc)  

But the non-binary teen is binding.  How not to worry about a young teen doing long term damage to her ribcage, or to be curious what the influence in her life that have led her (and the female friend who identifies as a boy) to eschew the category of female? A lot of female detransitioners (Reddit is up to 23K in their detrans group) have talked about the over-sexualization of women in media,  the ubiquitous nature of porn, and feeling afraid of or disassociated from their post pubertal body.  Also early sexual trauma can underlie a lot of the new identity.  

For my son, as so many other males id'ing as trans, there was a lot social isolation, a lot social awkwardness, black and white thinking (autism), and a huge amount of time spent consuming reddit posts and transition timeline videos of his favorite gamers who transitioned.  

It is not transphobic to recognize that this is an area that is similar in teen culture to that of eating disorders, cutting, etc.  For many kids, it is social contagion mixed with a maladaptive coping mechanism - a hope that a simple solution (transition) will fix the problems they see in themselves.  It is not transphobic to recognize it as a social contagion -- previous to 2007, the number of boys to girls referred to gender clinics was 2:1, mostly at a younger age, and now it is over 70 percent female teens. It is important to try to understand underlying issues (35 percent of the teens referred to the Tavistock clinic in Britain had moderate to severe autistic traits, while only  in the general public roughly 1-2 percent are dx'ed Autistic. Also note that while many was worried about the rise in Autism when diagnoses doubled between 2000 and now, statistics from the Tavistock clinic show that referrals are up 4400 percent- exponentially higher than can be attributed to just wider acceptance or information). 

The underlying issues  or co-morbidities can also make it difficult to have these wide-ranging conversations that other parents and their teens are able to have.  How do you have a conversation with an autistic kiddo who has no problem talking about any subject that is concrete, but when it comes to anything emotional literally goes mute? It's like talking to a brick wall.  So while my other two kids and I have wonderful conversations about gender and sexuality and friends groups and influences -- my ASD kid and I talk about Nintendo games and Nintendo music.  

And that will still be fine, but the fact that a "feeling" of wrongness in one's body might lead to sterilization and castration and a dependence on hormones for the rest of a teens life should be enough to say that maybe it's not transphobic to worry a little bit about this huge increase in gender variety.  Or to recognize that gender variety really tends to mostly hurt women. 

Mental Health Establishment is Failing Trans Kids

https://www.outkick.com/transgender-penn-swimmer-lia-thomas-smashes-more-records-at-akron-event-ncaa-titles-appear-certain/

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/transparency/id1583333120  (great podcast by two transmen who are part of Gender Dysphoria Alliance in Canada)

https://www.reddit.com/r/detrans/

[Farrar]

It's not transphobic to put trans kids in the same category with eating disorders and cutting. Got it. 🙄 Thanks for proving my point about the direction of the thread.

[Melissa Louise]

All three are mediated by social contagion, so yeah. You might want to catch up with where the research conversation is going, because it's of enough concern that many gender clinics and orgs are pulling back from affirmation. 

Honestly, if you can't handle the conversation, Farrar, that's on you. You have options here. One is the ignore button. Another is to be curious about the fact you might be wrong. A third is to accept that other people have opinions that are as valid as yours, despite being different. 

Nobody other than you is stopping you from sharing your thoughts on how 'its just different, not worse'. If you can't make your points without requiring that other people shut up, bad luck for you, I guess.

 

 

[SanDiegoMom]

5 hours ago, Farrar said:

It's not transphobic to put trans kids in the same category with eating disorders and cutting. Got it. 🙄 Thanks for proving my point about the direction of the thread.

There are a lot of trans voices that are speaking out on this issue and how it might be affecting teens in this manner.  They are being called transphobic as well. Literally, trans people are being called transphobic.  Listen to the de-transitioners talk about their experiences, about the enormous cross-over between anorexia and body dysmorphia/dyshoria.  Seriously Farrar, I have always respected your opinion as a voice of reason and critical thinking on this board.   I am trying to talk with compassion and empathy about this.  The first article I linked is co-written by two top doctors in the US -- Dr. Laura Edwards Leeper and Dr. Erica Anderson (Dr. Anderson is trans herself) who are bringing up this concern about trans kids being harmed and the medical establishment not taking enough time or care in their haste to instantaneously affirm their identities.   This is much more nuanced an issue than just #Be Kind or #Transphobic.   

Edited December 20, 2021 by SanDiegoMom

[SanDiegoMom]

Lisa Littman’s study of 100 detransitioners.  More research will be coming as the number of detransitioners continues to  increase. 
 

https://segm.org/new_detransition_study_2021

“55% of the respondents had been diagnosed with at least one psychiatric or neurodevelopmental issue and 37% reported experiencing trauma prior to the onset of gender dysphoria, the majority of participants (65%) reported that their clinicians did not evaluate whether their desire to transition was secondary to trauma or a mental health condition. Only 27% reported that the counseling and information they received prior to transition was accurate in terms of the benefits and risks associated with transition, with nearly half (46%) reporting that the counseling was overly positive about the benefits of transition.“

“Nearly a third (30%) endorsed the response “someone else told me that the feelings I was having meant that I was transgender and I believed them” to describe how they felt about identifying as transgender in the past. Many participants selected social media, online communities, and in-person friend groups as sources that encouraged them to believe that transitioning would help them.”

 

[Janeway]

On 12/17/2021 at 6:30 PM, Melissa Louise said:

I don't quite get the subtext here. Can you expand? 

I am thinking what she means as..everyone wants to believe it is someone else's kids doing it and not their own, so they don't concern themselves with it.

[Frances]

8 hours ago, SanDiegoMom said:

I think we are all looking through things from our individual lens and experiences.  So one might see a positive impacts on teens -- wider LGBTQ acceptance, greater experimentation with gender, being more in touch with mental health issues and willing to talk about their struggles -- while someone else might see it as debilitating for their own kid -- hyperfocus on their mental health problems without a counter balance of physical and in person activities, and a hyperfixation on labeling oneself by what they are rather than what they do or are interested in.  My kids are in a group (though have been less active recently) where one girl is gay, one is non-binary, one girl ids as trans, my son ids as trans, and my daughter ids as bisexual.  Is this statistically likely? Well, it honestly wouldn't matter if it's just a phase and they are all being typical teens, identifying into and out of groups (though I feel it is healthier to identify oneself as what your hobbies and interests are, such as the band kid, the dance kid, the drama kid, etc) 

My late 20s gay son and his partner would strongly agree with you. They are gay, they don’t “identify” as gay and it doesn’t define them. It is just a one part of who they are. Maybe because my son was fortunate enough to grow up in a time,place, and family where it was readily accepted, there was no need to identify as gay. He’s also very self confident and has several strong interests and talents. His partner had a different experience and there were even religious attempts at conversion. Fortunately his family is very accepting now.
 

Given the way things are now, I’m actually very thankful my son is well past his teen years. I think he came of age during a real sweet spot, at least for my part of the country.

[Sneezyone]

11 minutes ago, Frances said:

My late 20s gay son and his partner would strongly agree with you. They are gay, they don’t “identify” as gay and it doesn’t define them. It is just a one part of who they are. Maybe because my son was fortunate enough to grow up in a time,place, and family where it was readily accepted, there was no need to identify as gay. He’s also very self confident and has several strong interests and talents. His partner had a different experience and there were even religious attempts at conversion. Fortunately his family is very accepting now.
 

Given the way things are now, I’m actually very thankful my son is well past his teen years. I think he came of age during a real sweet spot, at least for my part of the country.

My child told me that ‘coming out’ and ‘identifying’ was totally unnecessary. We had a whole conversation WRT my conservative parent where she convincingly argued that that was (negative) attention-seeking behavior and passé. As far as my kids are concerned, as they’ve both explained to me, they just live their lives and do their own things and let the chips fall where they may. They’re not concerned about pleasing, playing to the concerns of, or accommodating adult sensibilities wrt their sexual preferences or gender ID. It’s definitely different from my experience.

[MEmama]

8 hours ago, Sneezyone said:

My child told me that ‘coming out’ and ‘identifying’ was totally unnecessary. We had a whole conversation WRT my conservative parent where she convincingly argued that that was (negative) attention-seeking behavior and passé. As far as my kids are concerned, as they’ve both explained to me, they just live their lives and do their own things and let the chips fall where they may. They’re not concerned about pleasing, playing to the concerns of, or accommodating adult sensibilities wrt their sexual preferences or gender ID. It’s definitely different from my experience.

DS doesn’t understand the need to come out, either. I guess it’s good that it’s just nbd, but to me it seems like an ideal whose time—unfortunately— hasn’t come yet.

As someone who managed to repress her own queerness for 30 years, I have a different relationship with coming out, identifying and representation. I’m thrilled that today’s younger generations have the language and space to explore who they are and where they fit in the world. It’s always been a messy process but having the right words allows for possibilities and connections I didn’t have access to in the 1980s. 

[Pam in CT]

I recognize the very real pain and resulting sensitivities/ landmines around trans/gender issues.  And I'm definitely *still processing.* What amazes me about both JKR and the backlash against her, is the *certainty* of the perspectives that seem (? from my vantage point at least) to have calcified in what -- in human/sociological/medical historical terms -- is a startling compressed interval of time.

That certainty is alien to me.  I have no d@mn idea how to parse and process and think about the sharply increased prevalence and visibility of teens in the midst of these issues, or their clearly-real pain. 

I feel like the butt of the joke about the guy at the bar in between two furiously arguing seatmates.  "That's a good point!"  then to the other side: "That's absolutely true!"  then the bartender says, perplexed, "You just agreed with both of them!" to which the guy agrees, "You're right!"

This tentativeness greatly frustrates my kids, who are Very Certain. 

 

What strikes me this morning is: how this one vortex of (absolutely real) issues takes up all the oxygen.  This thread is "teen culture."  Which encompasses a broad net: all the old classics of prior generations (sports, Queen Bees, bullying, pressure cooker college entrance anxiety, anorexia, cutting) plus the newer entrants bound together by emergent technology (gaming, vastly more accessible porn) and/or wider societal ills (ubiquity of school shootings, climate change, polarization/extremism/extreme misinformation among the folks who are supposed to be the adults in their world).

But within a page and a half we've funneled down to just one of those teen culture issues.  Arguably the most polarizing one.

I dunno why. But it's noticeable.

[Terabith]

My non binary kid can’t talk about it.  I FINALLY got them into a therapist who specializes in gender issues, and I was there for the initial appointment where I said that I understand my kid’s feelings and that they feel they need top surgery, and I want to be supportive but because it’s such a huge, permanent decision, I really wanted them to discuss this with a therapist and to dig down and see if this is an issue with dysphoria that could be resolved without surgical intervention.  I wanted to make sure there is no trauma impacting this and if so to deal with it, because from my perspective, as an outsider, it seemed like prior to starting public high school, they hadn’t liked having books in the same way that many of us, myself included, don’t, but that they were self confident and comfortable in their body and that the intense dysphoria showed up very suddenly with the sensory overwhelm and massive anxiety that started with the school change.  
 

My kid is now 18, and at first solo appointment said they didn’t have anything they needed to talk about and that they just wanted a letter for therapy, and therapist said that was fine.  The only other therapist that deals with gender identity in our area says on his website that he feels people know what they need and also advertises his Tarot readings.  So…. 

[SanDiegoMom]

2 minutes ago, Terabith said:

 I really wanted them to discuss this with a therapist and to dig down and see if this is an issue with dysphoria that could be resolved without surgical intervention.  I wanted to make sure there is no trauma impacting this and if so to deal with it, because from my perspective, as an outsider, it seemed like prior to starting public high school, they hadn’t liked having books in the same way that many of us, myself included, don’t, but that they were self confident and comfortable in their body and that the intense dysphoria showed up very suddenly with the sensory overwhelm and massive anxiety that started with the school change.  
 

 

This is the type of therapy we thought our therapist was providing our kid.  We found out that she interprets the affirmation only law as that if she provides any room to question the foundation of his identity as trans, then she would actually be providing conversion therapy and could lose her license.

[BusyMom5]

I recently read The Great Gatsby with my 16 year old.  We were discussing the themes in the book, the excesses of the 1920s, and the morality of the characters' behavior.  She responded that we aren't allowed to judge people's behavior anymore.  I probed a little more, and she feels as if she is being told by media which opinions she is allowed to have.   You cannot voice opposing opinions, especially online.  Even keeping silent isn't allowed!  You are supposed to like and share the proper meme.  That's pretty profound coming from a 16 year old.  

My older one is feeling like her rights are being erased by transrights.  Maybe if you have boys, this isn't feeling like such an encroachment? 

I wonder if young women in colleges are feeling it more than the rest of society bc the schools are also being forced to comply or risk law $uit$.  Its easy to not care if its about the bathroom at Target you rarely use, or a dressing room in a store. Its something else when its your dorm bathroom, your sports teammate or competition, your locker room- and you are told to hold your tongue.  You are told you can't have an opinion other than acceptance.  This generation of young women were not brought up to hold their tongue when men speak.  

I do think this is the most polarizing issue in teen culture right now.