Duggar found GUILTY

[MercyA]

1 hour ago, TravelingChris said:

Totally agree that IBLP is crazy theology.

As to the hell part and what is the allure of a religion where you don't know if you end up there, my point is that God said Love trumpets faith and hope.  It isn't that I think people shouldn't think they are saved, rather they shouldn't brag that they are saved.  Mainly  because they are bragging about their actions of chastising ohhers that they did it wrong, aren't saved because they aren't Catholic, Baptist. etc, didn't ask Jesus to come into their heart or didn't get saved agsin when they strayed znd aln thise sorts of statements. And specifically, I don't believe that God only saves Christians.  ( As to the oart about Jesus enters your heart, when dd1 was about 5, she was at a VBS where that term was used.  She came home and said she didn't want Jesus in her heart because if he was there,how would her heart work?   She is also  the one who a few years later was getting 'saved' multiple times until I stopped taking her and her sister yo AWANAS.

Right there with you on the "asking Jesus into your heart" phrasing. It is well meant but not strictly Biblical. The Bible speaks of trusting Christ, putting one's faith in Christ, following Christ, not "asking Jesus to come live in your heart."

I do not, not, not like the evangelism of young children. Tell them about Jesus, yes. Teach them the stories of the Bible, yes. Explain why Jesus died for us. But pushing for a profession of faith from a child? Nope, I don't think that's helpful and can often be harmful in the long run. My two cents.

[MercyA]

4 hours ago, Katy said:

I did read one thing that said JB had property across the street from the compound in Jana’s name, and when the car lot was raided and Josh started selling assets JB demanded Jana sign over that property to Josh.  She apparently refused because she’s planning on getting married and building her own house there someday.  So apparently she still thinks she’ll marry, but she’s so dependent on her family she can’t imagine moving away. 

Good for her! She now says she would consider moving away if she found the right guy:

"I used to be a little more strict," [Jana] said. "I felt like, I just want to find someone that either would move to Arkansas, or is already from here, but I think as time has gone on, I think it's more that I've found I do love to travel more than I thought I did."

"So now, it's more like, OK, if I really love the guy, I'll follow him to the ends of the earth. I'll want to go wherever he is. And so far I just haven't found that one, so when he comes, he doesn't have to stay in Arkansas, it's just I've gotta love you so much that I will go with you."

I hope she finds someone because I think it would make her happy. 

[Murphy101]

Can we talk about how these women and their kids are damned if they do and damned if they don’t? Is there any way that Anna could have left Josh and not very likely lost her kids to either him/his family or the state? I’m not seeing one.  Before this was found - there would have been nothing the courts would have used to decide he should ever see his kids again. (Otherwise he’d have been in jail before now.) And everyone is so quick to blame the wife that likely her kids would have gone to foster care even if the court believed her.  And she would have to prove she didn’t know or couldn’t stop it and no one ever seems inclined to believe that.  If a mother really cares at all about protecting her kids - I can see how a mother might think there’s no where to go and at least if she stays it is the evil she can do her best to mitigate against for her kids. 

[katilac]

10 hours ago, Mrs Tiggywinkle said:

the most ATI family I knew, who’s sons all went through ALERT and the daughters did Journey of the Heart and they were enrolled in the homeschool program the entirety of K-12–their oldest daughter is at Syracuse University doing a PhD in molecular biology.  

Okay, but are you simply saying that this happened, or arguing that ATI encourages or approves of this type of education for women? I have seen and read nothing that would make me think so. 

How many of the prominent ATI families, or board of director families, have kids who have done/are doing the equivalent of a PhD in molecular biology? 

I don't have a problem believing that this particular person has done this, but I don't at all think an ATI education prepares most students for this level of achievement. Wouldn't doing ATI for K-12 mean the crux of their entire education was about 50 short booklets that cover all subjects? The overview for booklets 29-54 list a total of four math topics in all. They don't sell any other math or science texts. 

3 hours ago, Murphy101 said:

Can we talk about how these women and their kids are damned if they do and damned if they don’t? Is there any way that Anna could have left Josh and not very likely lost her kids to either him/his family or the state? I’m not seeing one.  Before this was found - there would have been nothing the courts would have used to decide he should ever see his kids again. (Otherwise he’d have been in jail before now.) And everyone is so quick to blame the wife that likely her kids would have gone to foster care even if the court believed her.  And she would have to prove she didn’t know or couldn’t stop it and no one ever seems inclined to believe that.  If a mother really cares at all about protecting her kids - I can see how a mother might think there’s no where to go and at least if she stays it is the evil she can do her best to mitigate against for her kids. 

I don't see why she would have lost her kids if she left him, as long as she had a roof over her head. If she left him before these latest charges, then yes, Josh would likely have shared custody up to 50/50 if he wanted. After the charges, obviously not, and there's no real precedent or reason for the grandparents to have any legal standing for custody in either case; likewise CPS.

Either would be incredibly unlikely unless it could be shown that she had put the children in danger. Just knowing about him abusing siblings when he was a minor would not be enough.

People convicted of sexual child abuse are most often able to return to the family home after release, even when they have kids in their target age group. CPS is not going to remove your kids because you knew that your spouse abused his siblings when he was a minor. CPS didn't remove their kids when the charges were national news and Josh was living in the home. 

I agree that many parents stay in a marriage to better protect the children, when it's likely that they will have to share custody or have visitation. And I have a level of sympathy for Anna, certainly for young Anna who didn't have many options. Her dad has definite ATI-esque views on forgiveness, and I don't think 20-yr-old Anna carries much blame for being convinced that Josh's teenage wrongdoings should be forgiven and forgotten. 

But I also agree to some extent with the people who point out that she's not a sheltered 20-yr-old anymore, and that she has been out and about in the world to a fair degree. I don't think she needs to leave Josh and the Duggar homestead right away, as the kids are safe and it would be another trauma for them, but I do hope she starts working towards that. 

[Faith-manor]

4 hours ago, Murphy101 said:

Can we talk about how these women and their kids are damned if they do and damned if they don’t? Is there any way that Anna could have left Josh and not very likely lost her kids to either him/his family or the state? I’m not seeing one.  Before this was found - there would have been nothing the courts would have used to decide he should ever see his kids again. (Otherwise he’d have been in jail before now.) And everyone is so quick to blame the wife that likely her kids would have gone to foster care even if the court believed her.  And she would have to prove she didn’t know or couldn’t stop it and no one ever seems inclined to believe that.  If a mother really cares at all about protecting her kids - I can see how a mother might think there’s no where to go and at least if she stays it is the evil she can do her best to mitigate against for her kids. 

I believe you are correct. For one thing her parents are rather poor. Her dad has a prison ministry and they live on donations. It isn't great. They would not be able to help her fight for her kids. JB, prior to potentially paying upwards of a half million (the defense's "expert" witness billed out at roughly $70,000 for just her testimony and the claimed 200 hours she put into her independent investigation), would have had a lot of money for a cut throat, s.o.b. of a divorce lawyer, and he and Josh are sociopaths or something. They would not have let those kids go. And also prior to the CSAM allegations, Mike Huckabee was still a big fan so they would have a powerful friend to bring pressure on the system to favor Josh.

Her only chance was at the Ashley Maddison scandal. Her brother is married to someone with a fair amount of assets and cash flow. Josh went to Jesus camp for several months and wasn't working, which is a situation that could have been spun by a good lawyer as abandonment. Her brother and sister in law offered to help her, and she declined. That was her chance. Her brother publicly offered, and she didn't take her up on it. Now there are 7 kids. That is a lot more to handle for any family member to intervene.

The only thing I can think of, if she were inclined to try, is if her brother offered again, she cooperated with CPS for an investigation, got a job - any job - right away and put the older ones in school, and the baby maybe being cared for by Jill if Jill agreed. She would look responsible, and could maybe make a case that because she had Covenant Eyes on his machine and is not tech savvy, she was sure he was innocent until the court testimony and conviction. JB may be running low on cash, possibly not able to pay for a top shelf attorney since he has already allegedly paid out retainers for an appeal which is NOT going to be cheap. But, she is going to have to cooperate with CPS, and do things that will make them feel she is going to get away from Josh and keep them safe, and that means becoming a viable single parent supporting herself with the help of public assistance and family. I don't know that she thinks she can do this.

[katilac]

4 minutes ago, Faith-manor said:

I believe you are correct. For one thing her parents are rather poor. Her dad has a prison ministry and they live on donations. It isn't great. They would not be able to help her fight for her kids. JB, prior to potentially paying upwards of a half million (the defense's "expert" witness billed out at roughly $70,000 for just her testimony and the claimed 200 hours she put into her independent investigation), would have had a lot of money for a cut throat, s.o.b. of a divorce lawyer, and he and Josh are sociopaths or something. They would not have let those kids go. And also prior to the CSAM allegations, Mike Huckabee was still a big fan so they would have a powerful friend to bring pressure on the system to favor Josh.

<snip>

The only thing I can think of, if she were inclined to try, is if her brother offered again, she cooperated with CPS for an investigation, got a job - any job - right away and put the older ones in school, and the baby maybe being cared for by Jill if Jill agreed. She would look responsible, and could maybe make a case that because she had Covenant Eyes on his machine and is not tech savvy, she was sure he was innocent until the court testimony and conviction. JB may be running low on cash, possibly not able to pay for a top shelf attorney since he has already allegedly paid out retainers for an appeal which is NOT going to be cheap. But, she is going to have to cooperate with CPS, and do things that will make them feel she is going to get away from Josh and keep them safe, and that means becoming a viable single parent supporting herself with the help of public assistance and family. I don't know that she thinks she can do this.

I will happily fall over in amazement if Anna's parents offer her the tiniest bit of approval or emotional support for divorcing Josh. 

CPS does not take your kids away because your spouse is convicted of possessing CSAM. CPS does not even take your kids away if your spouse is convicted of sexually abusing children, unless you are shown to have put your kids in danger and/or refuse to abide by CPS restrictions on that person seeing the children - which of course is not applicable in this case, he will be in prison.

[Faith-manor]

As to ATI, yes, math and science is limited. A.C.E. is sometimes used as a supplement. But we are.talking about, at a high school level, 12 consumable workbooks that cover roughly 1-2 chapters that a textbook would cover except not because content had to be limited in order to make room for writing all the answers in the book, a portion of every other page devoted to Bible memory, and quizzes, self-test in the book that must also have room for writing in so it limits what is gone over. Plus there is a lot of time spent on dubious topics like "the Lochness monster proves dinosaurs are still alive and walked with man". I did a review of the stuff.back in 2009, and at that time, the biology paces were missing 22 topics from a standard, non-advanced, non AP biology text, and when it came to comparison to an honors course, 40. 40 missing topics. There was a tremendous emphasis on taxonomy which is normally these days taught in 7th grade life science. If you have any familiarity with Jay Wife's high school.science texts, his biology (again non honors, just basic) is heads and shoulders above A.C.E.

Algebra 1 had so many mistakes it was nerve wrecking. In comparison to Christian Light Algebra 1, it just didn't hold a candle.

Additionally, as a general rule, the strict IBLP families end all math and science for girls at the end of 10th grade figuring she has enough to get a GED. Obviously not all. This is what is recommended by Gothard. Some families may be a bit more pros education than that. Some will follow it to the letter, and some will be worse.

Locally, the two IBLP families at my mom's church openly flaunt that they stop education for their daughters at the end of 8th grade in total violation of Michigan law. However since Michigan homeschool law is NOT enforced, they get away with it. Therefore, these girls have about no chance of passing the GED since it had been updated to include some algebra 1 and geometry, some biology and physical science.

The Wisdom Booklets/Gothard and friends are scared to death of literature so apart from reading Pilgrim's Progress, do not cover much. The reading level is low. So the bottom line is if these kids make it, either their parents supplemented with other, decent curriculum and in several subjects, or they didn't fully swallow the kool aid when it comes to educating girls.

[Faith-manor]

14 minutes ago, katilac said:

I will happily fall over in amazement if Anna's parents offer her the tiniest bit of approval or emotional support for divorcing Josh. 

CPS does not take your kids away because your spouse is convicted of possessing CSAM. CPS does not even take your kids away if your spouse is convicted of sexually abusing children, unless you are shown to have put your kids in danger and/or refuse to abide by CPS restrictions on that person seeing the children - which of course is not applicable in this case, he will be in prison.

Right, I didn't mean that they would automatically be taken away or anything like that. Just that if JB fought for them, and should have said if the court forces a CPS report (which has been done for federal cases because judges can demand that in order to decide things like where the inmate can live when paroled), she would probably need to show she is willing to do the hard, single parent thing independent of JB. Otherwise, it is very conceivable that JB would fight for custody of those kids claiming she can't do it, isn't capable, isn't educated, isn't...whatever lie he makes up. So I think it is more of an uphill battle for her if JB wants to keep the M's in the cult, than it would be for other moms. But, I wasn't clear on what I meant. Sorry about that!

[Murphy101]

52 minutes ago, Faith-manor said:

I believe you are correct. For one thing her parents are rather poor. Her dad has a prison ministry and they live on donations. It isn't great. They would not be able to help her fight for her kids. JB, prior to potentially paying upwards of a half million (the defense's "expert" witness billed out at roughly $70,000 for just her testimony and the claimed 200 hours she put into her independent investigation), would have had a lot of money for a cut throat, s.o.b. of a divorce lawyer, and he and Josh are sociopaths or something. They would not have let those kids go. And also prior to the CSAM allegations, Mike Huckabee was still a big fan so they would have a powerful friend to bring pressure on the system to favor Josh.

Her only chance was at the Ashley Maddison scandal. Her brother is married to someone with a fair amount of assets and cash flow. Josh went to Jesus camp for several months and wasn't working, which is a situation that could have been spun by a good lawyer as abandonment. Her brother and sister in law offered to help her, and she declined. That was her chance. Her brother publicly offered, and she didn't take her up on it. Now there are 7 kids. That is a lot more to handle for any family member to intervene.

The only thing I can think of, if she were inclined to try, is if her brother offered again, she cooperated with CPS for an investigation, got a job - any job - right away and put the older ones in school, and the baby maybe being cared for by Jill if Jill agreed. She would look responsible, and could maybe make a case that because she had Covenant Eyes on his machine and is not tech savvy, she was sure he was innocent until the court testimony and conviction. JB may be running low on cash, possibly not able to pay for a top shelf attorney since he has already allegedly paid out retainers for an appeal which is NOT going to be cheap. But, she is going to have to cooperate with CPS, and do things that will make them feel she is going to get away from Josh and keep them safe, and that means becoming a viable single parent supporting herself with the help of public assistance and family. I don't know that she thinks she can do this.

And of course we don’t even know the details of what her brother actually offered to do for help.  People say a lot of stuff publicly that doesn’t reflect what they say privately.

I don’t necessarily think this is about being “sheltered” either. Learned helplessness is a very real thing. And it does not get easier to unlearn it as we get older and the pile of evidence for what these men can get away with and the extent of the shadow networks that enable such men seems so far-reaching.  It makes it even harder to believe there’s a genuine way out, I would think. 

41 minutes ago, katilac said:

I will happily fall over in amazement if Anna's parents offer her the tiniest bit of approval or emotional support for divorcing Josh. 

CPS does not take your kids away because your spouse is convicted of possessing CSAM. CPS does not even take your kids away if your spouse is convicted of sexually abusing children, unless you are shown to have put your kids in danger and/or refuse to abide by CPS restrictions on that person seeing the children - which of course is not applicable in this case, he will be in prison.

CPS can be extremely fickle.  One woman may lose her kids bc they were playing in the yard without her. Another woman can have neighbors call reporting on her constantly for beating the crap out of her kids and never lose them.  Lots of women lose their kids just because dad has more money. It happens enough that no one is surprised by any of this.  I do not believe for one second that any of these women can genuinely be free of their abusers  while still living in the same town, maybe even the same state.  That’s just ripe for constant life-long harassment and extended trauma. And let’s not forget - these men have money and connections.

[Catwoman]

@Faith-manor -- I noticed that you mentioned that Mike Huckabee used to be a big fan of Josh prior to the CSAM arrest. I wanted to mention that when I looked at JimBob's campaign website yesterday, I saw that Mike Huckabee is endorsing him. 

Blech. 🤮

[Murphy101]

9 minutes ago, Catwoman said:

@Faith-manor -- I noticed that you mentioned that Mike Huckabee used to be a big fan of Josh prior to the CSAM arrest. I wanted to mention that when I looked at JimBob's campaign website yesterday, I saw that Mike Huckabee is endorsing him. 

Blech. 🤮

Wow. 

[Mrs Tiggywinkle]

When I was a homeschooled teenager, it wasn’t the ATI crowd that was discouraging higher education, but this was mid-90s and they probably just weren’t buying the whole message(also, for whatever reason, our local ATI crowd was made up of very highly educated parents which undoubtably influenced some of it). It was the Independent Fundamental Baptist homeschool crowd and the non-ATI but very fundamentalist, home church/integrated family church types that seemed to greatly discourage college. The moms subscribed to Gentle Spirit and the dads read Quit You Like Men. Sometimes they wore head coverings, which I didn’t see as much in the ATI groups.  Everyone wore those denim jumpers. And Quiverfull, which everyone assumed my parents were since they had a bunch of kids(they weren’t, they had a bunch of birth control failures, but didn’t think it was anyone’s business so they just let people assume they were QF).  I think because of that, all those different groups assumed my large homeschool family was “one of them.” 
However, looking back it’s hard to paint any of them with a wide brush.  Plenty of the ATI homeschooled teenagers I knew did go on to college and have decent careers now.  None of them have stayed in ATI and almost all of their parents have left too.  Many of the IFB kids I knew married at 17 and 18 and are now divorced. Most of them never went to college though one, my cousin, has gone back at age 40 to become an accountant.  With the exception of my lifetime best friend, the conservative Mennonite have all stayed Mennonite and raised their large families in the farming community. My BF left the community to marry outside of it and has only one child.  It’s hard for me to paint a subgroup with such a wide brush because there were a lot of variations. 

My mom was never ATI, but fell into the denim jumper/head covering/Gentle Spirit magazine/QF/familY integrated church/courtship hole for a long time(my dad was much more skeptical but worked long hours and traveled for work, so wasn’t around for all the craziness).  She talks now about seeing all these perfect families  and believing she’d found the formula.  She calls it Prosperity Gospel for Family Life.  The end result 25 years later is that three of her eight children are essentially estranged, two are atheist, and absolutely none of us are homeschooling moms of large, Quiverful families.  The promises of Jonathan Lindvall, Mary Pride, Cheryl Lindsey, Michael Farris, Steve and Teri Maxwell, and Gregg Harris did not hold. Not for my mom and not for many, many of the homeschooling families I knew and grew up with from 1986-2000.  None of them were officially involved with ATI, but all were very influential, and very dangerous.

Edited December 13, 2021 by Mrs Tiggywinkle

[Frances]

41 minutes ago, Catwoman said:

@Faith-manor -- I noticed that you mentioned that Mike Huckabee used to be a big fan of Josh prior to the CSAM arrest. I wanted to mention that when I looked at JimBob's campaign website yesterday, I saw that Mike Huckabee is endorsing him. 

Blech. 🤮

Birds of a feather flock together.

[Faith-manor]

45 minutes ago, Catwoman said:

@Faith-manor -- I noticed that you mentioned that Mike Huckabee used to be a big fan of Josh prior to the CSAM arrest. I wanted to mention that when I looked at JimBob's campaign website yesterday, I saw that Mike Huckabee is endorsing him. 

Blech. 🤮

I don't have a puke emoji on my kindle. So I will have to go with this one 😱😠👿

[Murphy101]

18 minutes ago, Mrs Tiggywinkle said:

When I was a homeschooled teenager, it wasn’t the ATI crowd that was discouraging higher education, but this was mid-90s and they probably just weren’t buying the whole message(also, for whatever reason, our local ATI crowd was made up of very highly educated parents which undoubtably influenced some of it). It was the Independent Fundamental Baptist homeschool crowd and the non-ATI but very fundamentalist, home church/integrated family church types that seemed to greatly discourage college. The moms subscribed to Gentle Spirit and the dads read Quit You Like Men. Sometimes they wore head coverings, which I didn’t see as much in the ATI groups.  Everyone wore those denim jumpers. And Quiverfull, which everyone assumed my parents were since they had a bunch of kids(they weren’t, they had a bunch of birth control failures, but didn’t think it was anyone’s business so they just let people assume they were QF).  I think because of that, all those different groups assumed my large homeschool family was “one of them.” 
However, looking back it’s hard to paint any of them with a wide brush.  Plenty of the ATI homeschooled teenagers I knew did go on to college and have decent careers now.  None of them have stayed in ATI and almost all of their parents have left too.  Many of the IFB kids I knew married at 17 and 18 and are now divorced. Most of them never went to college though one, my cousin, has gone back at age 40 to become an accountant.  With the exception of my lifetime best friend, the conservative Mennonite have all stayed Mennonite and raised their large families in the farming community. My BF left the community to marry outside of it and has only one child.  It’s hard for me to paint a subgroup with such a wide brush because there were a lot of variations. 

My mom was never ATI, but fell into the denim jumper/head covering/Gentle Spirit magazine/QF/familY integrated church/courtship hole for a long time(my dad was much more skeptical but worked long hours and traveled for work, so wasn’t around for all the craziness).  She talks now about seeing all these perfect families  and believing she’d found the formula.  She calls it Prosperity Gospel for Family Life.  The end result 25 years later is that three of her eight children are essentially estranged, two are atheist, and absolutely none of us are homeschooling moms of large, Quiverful families.  The promises of Jonathan Lindvall, Mary Pride, Cheryl Lindsey, Michael Farris, Steve and Teri Maxwell, and Gregg Harris did not hold. Not for my mom and not for many, many of the homeschooling families I knew and grew up with from 1986-2000.  None of them were officially involved with ATI, but all were very influential, and very dangerous.

Totally true. The RCC calls this kind of thing falling prey to cults of personality.  When a person or a couple are held up as this example to follow to the point that it’s almost like they have their own gospel - which distracts from the reality of Christ’s gospel.  I’ve said for 29 years now. We cannot parent out, educate out, or even beat out that our kids are humans of free will.  It’s extremely prideful parenting to think we can parent better than God Himself.

It’s a major reason I almost never go to home school conferences. No need for the talks by men who aren’t at home doing the schooling and it’s all “heaven not Harvard” bs to make parents feel good about not giving their kids a better education.  No thanks. 
 

Again though. I think we are being distracted by ATI or the denim homeschoolers. This sexual abuse and trafficking is not limited to those. Not at all.  If only it was. It’s easy to think this is a problem of poor and uneducated or bad religion.   But it isn’t at all.  

[Faith-manor]

24 minutes ago, Mrs Tiggywinkle said:

When I was a homeschooled teenager, it wasn’t the ATI crowd that was discouraging higher education, but this was mid-90s and they probably just weren’t buying the whole message(also, for whatever reason, our local ATI crowd was made up of very highly educated parents which undoubtably influenced some of it). It was the Independent Fundamental Baptist homeschool crowd and the non-ATI but very fundamentalist, home church/integrated family church types that seemed to greatly discourage college. The moms subscribed to Gentle Spirit and the dads read Quit You Like Men. Sometimes they wore head coverings, which I didn’t see as much in the ATI groups.  Everyone wore those denim jumpers. And Quiverfull, which everyone assumed my parents were since they had a bunch of kids(they weren’t, they had a bunch of birth control failures, but didn’t think it was anyone’s business so they just let people assume they were QF).  I think because of that, all those different groups assumed my large homeschool family was “one of them.” 
However, looking back it’s hard to paint any of them with a wide brush.  Plenty of the ATI homeschooled teenagers I knew did go on to college and have decent careers now.  None of them have stayed in ATI and almost all of their parents have left too.  Many of the IFB kids I knew married at 17 and 18 and are now divorced. Most of them never went to college though one, my cousin, has gone back at age 40 to become an accountant.  With the exception of my lifetime best friend, the conservative Mennonite have all stayed Mennonite and raised their large families in the farming community. My BF left the community to marry outside of it and has only one child.  It’s hard for me to paint a subgroup with such a wide brush because there were a lot of variations. 

My mom was never ATI, but fell into the denim jumper/head covering/Gentle Spirit magazine/QF/familY integrated church/courtship hole for a long time(my dad was much more skeptical but worked long hours and traveled for work, so wasn’t around for all the craziness).  She talks now about seeing all these perfect families  and believing she’d found the formula.  She calls it Prosperity Gospel for Family Life.  The end result 25 years later is that three of her eight children are essentially estranged, two are atheist, and absolutely none of us are homeschooling moms of large, Quiverful families.  The promises of Jonathan Lindvall, Mary Pride, Cheryl Lindsey, Michael Farris, Steve and Teri Maxwell, and Gregg Harris did not hold. Not for my mom and not for many, many of the homeschooling families I knew and grew up with from 1986-2000.  None of them were officially involved with ATI, but all were very influential, and very dangerous.

Yes, there were a lot of similar groups, and they were all dangerous. I think after the Phyllis Scraply/Falwell mind losing over the equal rights amendment, there was a big move among these misogynist pricks to offer "the perfect life" to christians. I know all about IFB, because fundie Gothard school didn't think it was enough for us to have Bill Gothard to worship, and also took us to Hyles church in Hammond, the prick that had his own version of this and meanwhile was using church money to hide out his mistress in a nice condo across town, and covering up for his deacon raping a disabled girl in Sunday School class. It was a bad, bad time. I mean, I went to one homeschool convention in 2007, just the one GHC thing in Cinncinnati. The highlight was meeting SWB and having my book autographed. But all the rest of it still felt like crazy, right wing, fundie, misogynistic garbage looking around the exhibit it it's hall. Vision Forum, The Botkin crap, Essential Oils and Bee pollen cures everything, etc. SWB, Miller Pad and Paper, and Rainbow Resource were the only stop worth makinfg, and I wasn't even deconverted at that point and still a conservative to moderately conservative Christian. I saw a LOT of stuff that just made me feel like I needed to be bleached because it reminded me so much for ATI/IBLP. So much crossover.

[gardenmom5]

17 hours ago, Laura Corin said:

Yes. It can happen in secular families too. I know someone who only this year escaped from the daughter-at-home role, on her mother's death. The daughter is 59.

I think the spiritual side adds another layer though. My acquaintance's mother could guilt her with threats that the mother would self-harm if the daughter left. But at least disobeying wasn't a road to hell.

The guilt trips that sent postcards . . . I hope the daughter is emotionally breaking free.

13 hours ago, Katy said:

 

The rumors are that Jana had more spirit when she was young.  She fell for someone her dad didn’t approve of, and when she sulked and grieved when he broke them up she was sent to Journey of the Heart IBLP programming camp not once, but twice. Since then she’s totally drank the koolaid and is for the most part super compliant.  

 

It sounds like they broke her. I believe there's a special place in h3ll for parents who do that to their children.  I hope Josh's trial and conviction renews her spirit.

13 hours ago, Mrs Tiggywinkle said:

I’ve known a lot of ATI families and never seen this.  the most ATI family I knew, who’s sons all went through ALERT and the daughters did Journey of the Heart and they were enrolled in the homeschool program the entirety of K-12–their oldest daughter is at Syracuse University doing a PhD in molecular biology.  It’s their youngest daughter who seems to be home indefinitely.  But she’s only 25 still so it remains to be seen.  

Considering, from what I've read, most of what passes for an acceptable education wouldn't even meet basic lab science requirements for college admission.  Doing a PhD in a lab science - they're not following the ATI education plan.

2 hours ago, katilac said:

I will happily fall over in amazement if Anna's parents offer her the tiniest bit of approval or emotional support for divorcing Josh. 

CPS does not take your kids away because your spouse is convicted of possessing CSAM. CPS does not even take your kids away if your spouse is convicted of sexually abusing children, unless you are shown to have put your kids in danger and/or refuse to abide by CPS restrictions on that person seeing the children - which of course is not applicable in this case, he will be in prison.

But JB is enough of a SOB to try to take her kids away if she doesn't toe the line. "in the interest of protecting them/providing them a stable home."   He has no problem lying to get what he wants.  

[Guest]

@Mrs Tiggywinkle thank you for sharing that. It jibes with my experiences. 
 

What you said about “Prosperity gospel for family life”- that nails it right on the head. *That* was definitely what my mom believed. My dad, I’m not sure; I think he was always more skeptical of certain things. But I saw a lot of bad outcomes in kids who were raised with these beliefs. I remember a couple of the older girls in one huge homeschooling family; they were the most dejected young women I think I ever met. They were “substitute mothers” of several little siblings and they seemed profoundly unhappy and with no personality of their own. They barely spoke, except to tell the Littles things. It was super sad. 

[Faith-manor]

5 minutes ago, Murphy101 said:

 

 

Again though. I think we are being distracted by ATI or the denim homeschoolers. This sexual abuse and trafficking is not limited to those. Not at all.  If only it was. It’s easy to think this is a problem of poor and uneducated or bad religion.   But it isn’t at all.  

Well, I think that the thing with ATI is that it is so far out in crazy land that it is very, very obvious where the problems are. When Gothard says things in his health newsletters like, "Cabbage Patch dolls and Troll Dolls bring demons into the house so a woman can't birth naturally, but getting rid of them allows a woman to birth easily and without complications", and that this is special revelation from god just to him, the target is clear. That's the thing about ATI/Stay at Home Daughters, IFB, and the crossovers between them, the problems are not subtle, and not particularly nuanced.

But take for instance the sex abuse scandals of say the SBC, things can be much more multi-faceted, and the discussions have to be more nuanced. And I don't think most folks on this board are up for a hard, hard look at how a variety of religious faiths as well as nonreligious belief has shaped and informed what has been bred into the fabric of our society and culture, even at the legal level. It is difficult to hold these discussions in an online forum like this where tone can't be read. Usually it ends with people feeling attacked. And as someone who was once very much a devout Christian but who is no longer, I know exactly how attacked I would be. So I stick to the likes of the easy targets. Gothard and his followers, Doug Phillips, Doug Wilson, Jeffrey Botkin, RC Sprout Jr., etc.

[gardenmom5]

1 hour ago, Catwoman said:

@Faith-manor -- I noticed that you mentioned that Mike Huckabee used to be a big fan of Josh prior to the CSAM arrest. I wanted to mention that when I looked at JimBob's campaign website yesterday, I saw that Mike Huckabee is endorsing him. 

Blech. 🤮

As much as JB is so smarmy he makes me feel covered with refuse - I want to punch Huckabee in the face. 
Washingtonians hate him - especially those in the Puget Sound area who know his connection to us.  He was so full of "compassion' he commuted Maurice Clemmons life sentence . . . . because of Huckabee's "compassion" - four police officers were gunned down in cold blood.  (the fifth police officer, managed to kill him first.) He doesn't know what compassion is.

24 minutes ago, Faith-manor said:

I don't have a puke emoji on my kindle. So I will have to go with this one 😱😠👿

here

[katilac]

2 hours ago, Faith-manor said:

 Otherwise, it is very conceivable that JB would fight for custody of those kids claiming she can't do it, isn't capable, isn't educated, isn't...whatever lie he makes up. So I think it is more of an uphill battle for her if JB wants to keep the M's in the cult, than it would be for other moms. But, I wasn't clear on what I meant. Sorry about that!

He is possibly stupid enough to try that, even though the majority of his own kids are no more educated, but I don't think he would have a chance at succeeding. You don't need to be educated to parent, you just need to keep a roof over their heads. A wealthier, more educated parent would have a strong physical custody advantage, but not so much the grandparents. 

Grandparents would have a better chance if they could show the parent has put the children in danger, but there's no way for Jim Bob to do this without admitting that Josh was the source of danger. 

Now, would he possibly scare her with the possibility? I can certainly believe that. She does talk to a wide enough range of people that she shouldn't believe it (if she will actually share this type of thing and be willing to listen and talk to a lawyer). 

1 hour ago, Murphy101 said:

And of course we don’t even know the details of what her brother actually offered to do for help.  People say a lot of stuff publicly that doesn’t reflect what they say privately.

I don’t necessarily think this is about being “sheltered” either. Learned helplessness is a very real thing. And it does not get easier to unlearn it as we get older and the pile of evidence for what these men can get away with and the extent of the shadow networks that enable such men seems so far-reaching.  It makes it even harder to believe there’s a genuine way out, I would think. 

CPS can be extremely fickle.  One woman may lose her kids bc they were playing in the yard without her. Another woman can have neighbors call reporting on her constantly for beating the crap out of her kids and never lose them.  Lots of women lose their kids just because dad has more money. It happens enough that no one is surprised by any of this. 

I agree that CPS can be extremely fickle and can make some bizarre decisions. They react far too strongly to some things and yet leave kids in obvious danger all the time. I am rarely surprised when when the parent with more money wins custody, but I am surprised when the other parent doesn't have typical visitation, and I would be surprised if a parent lost custody bc her kids were once spotted playing alone in their own yard. I've heard of investigations where the kid was down the street, and the stupid, outrageous case where they actually arrested the mom and took the 9-yr-old bc she let her play at a well-populated park while she worked nearby at McDonald's, but I'm hoping like heck there's no actual case of school-aged kid in own yard equals losing custody. 

More pertinently, JB is not a parent in this scenario and has far fewer rights. If Anna would lose custody to CPS for whatever reason, the Duggars are the most likely placement, but that is very different from fighting mom for custody. 

Plus, he might use it as a threat, but in no way do I think the Duggars actually want full custody of the M kids. 

53 minutes ago, Mrs Tiggywinkle said:

When I was a homeschooled teenager, it wasn’t the ATI crowd that was discouraging higher education, but this was mid-90s and they probably just weren’t buying the whole message 

Right, I'm sure plenty of people didn't buy the whole message, but it was definitely the message ATI was sending. Like I can see the family you reference buying in enough to purchase and even use the booklets, while also buying actual curriculum. I'm not patient enough to peruse 50+ booklets, but the ones I've seen all had about half a dozen math problems. Simple math problems. Nobody's mastering high school math with that. 

[MooCow]

1 hour ago, Catwoman said:

@Faith-manor -- I noticed that you mentioned that Mike Huckabee used to be a big fan of Josh prior to the CSAM arrest. I wanted to mention that when I looked at JimBob's campaign website yesterday, I saw that Mike Huckabee is endorsing him. 

Blech. 🤮

Gross

[TravelingChris]

On 12/10/2021 at 7:44 PM, Faith-manor said:

And actually, several animal and wildlife specialists have spoken out about exactly how false the information is with "traits" or "instincts" ascribed to many animals that they do not actually have.

I have long insisted that the entire idea that animals don't think must have been done by someone who didn't have pets, never lived on a farm and never carefully observed animals.

[katilac]

On 12/10/2021 at 6:04 PM, Slache said:

Are the animal books good? I've always wanted them, but I feel like they're tied to yuckiness.

You can see a sample of the book at the link below, and learn how the beaver represents orderliness (really? not diligence?): 

Look Inside Character Sketches

And they had badges that children could earn! I'm lol'ing at the thought of random people noticing them. "What cool badges! I love the whale. What does it say? *squints* Sexual . . . purity?" 

ATI Swag - Badges - Reddit

[Faith-manor]

1 minute ago, katilac said:

You can see a sample of the book at the link below, and learn how the beaver represents orderliness (really? not diligence?): 

Look Inside Character Sketches

And they had badges that children could earn! I'm lol'ing at the thought of random people noticing them. "What cool badges! I love the whale. What does it say? *squints* Sexual . . . purity?" 

ATI Swag - Badges - Reddit

LOal! I don't think we want children emulating beavers. They are fun, but not the smartest animals in the zoo! Naturalists at Dow Nature Center proved that they don't build dams in response to actual water, just the sound. They stranded a few headers on a dry hillside for a few hours and piped in the sound of running water. The little buggers built a damn right there in the grass. Adorable, but, I mean I would hope we would want children to exhibit a little better awareness of their surroundings and critical thinking skills. I was subbing in 2nd grade the day one of the naturalists came to speak, and even my eight year olds were saying things like, "Beavers are kind of dumb. They aren't blind, couldn't they SEE there wasn't any water?" So diligence but nor necessarily to any good end! 😂😂😂

[gardenmom5]

5 minutes ago, Faith-manor said:

LOal! I don't think we want children emulating beavers. They are fun, but not the smartest animals in the zoo! Naturalists at Dow Nature Center proved that they don't build dams in response to actual water, just the sound. They stranded a few headers on a dry hillside for a few hours and piped in the sound of running water. The little buggers built a damn right there in the grass. Adorable, but, I mean I would hope we would want children to exhibit a little better awareness of their surroundings and critical thinking skills. I was subbing in 2nd grade the day one of the naturalists came to speak, and even my eight year olds were saying things like, "Beavers are kind of dumb. They aren't blind, couldn't they SEE there wasn't any water?" So diligence but nor necessarily to any good end! 😂😂😂

if you build it - they will come. . . . . . .;p

[katilac]

9 minutes ago, Faith-manor said:

 Adorable, but, I mean I would hope we would want children to exhibit a little better awareness of their surroundings and critical thinking skills. 

We are meant to look to the bobcat for discernment, ma'am. 

[Faith-manor]

16 minutes ago, katilac said:

We are meant to look to the bobcat for discernment, ma'am. 

Can anybody remind me what the raccoon was? Because unless it was, "kids don't be like coons because the evil little trash panda punks", then proof positive that the book is just utterly so far off the mark as to be beyond the outer limits of ridiculous! 😁

Edited December 13, 2021 by Faith-manor

[katilac]

11 minutes ago, Faith-manor said:

Can anybody remind me what the raccoon was? Because unless it was, "kids don't be like coons because the evil little trash panda punks", then proof positive that the book is just utterly so far off the mark as to be beyond the outer limits of ridiculous! 😁

Creativity! 😂

[Faith-manor]

Just now, katilac said:

Creativity! 😂

Falling over!!! 🏆

[TravelingChris]

9 hours ago, katilac said:

You can see a sample of the book at the link below, and learn how the beaver represents orderliness (really? not diligence?): 

Look Inside Character Sketches

And they had badges that children could earn! I'm lol'ing at the thought of random people noticing them. "What cool badges! I love the whale. What does it say? *squints* Sexual . . . purity?" 

ATI Swag - Badges - Reddit

These traits make zero sense- why are Mallard ducks obefient.  While they are generally monogamous for a season, they are not lifelong like Canadian Geese. Plus the males are known to stray and attack single females 

[Faith-manor]

38 minutes ago, TravelingChris said:

These traits make zero sense- why are Mallard ducks obefient.  While they are generally monogamous for a season, they are not lifelong like Canadian Geese. Plus the males are known to stray and attack single females 

Having kept show ducks (Calls and Australian Spotteds) and taking care of a friend's livestock which included Magpies, Muscovies, and Pekins, I can say without hesitation that drakes are some of the most prolific rapists in the world, and the males will kill each other in the absence of enough females to rape. The cries of the ducks, just like those of hens, attempting to escape the drakes is gut wrenching and makes you want to find a lead pipe and bash the males.

So ya. The whole idea of this book is stunningly awful and ascribes traits to these animals that they don't possess. Just more blatant lying in order to further a devious agenda. And it does beg the question, if the worst violent, rapist animals represent obedience is this just one more subtle brainwashing to get children to accept abuse? Some of the kids read this tripe while also living on farms and having witnessed the behavior of some of these animals or had read other books with actual true information about them, but they are being told god wants them to emulate these animal "traits". Therefore, potentially the subtle message "obey your abuser" comes through, at least for some children, and especially in light of what we know about Bill Gothard himself. 

[vonfirmath]

On 12/11/2021 at 7:45 PM, MercyA said:

Jana has also had to publicly squelch rumors that she's dating her best girlfriend:

“No. I would like to stop that rumor. I have no interest in girls that way whatsoever. I have ‘courted’ or ‘dated’ a few guys, but so far nothing has gone into a serious relationship. Just continuing to wait and pray for the right guy to come along.”

Yep. Even without the famous family around me, I ended up marrying fairly "late" -- and wasn't doing a lot of obvious dating while living with a female roommate so ended up with rumors about if my roommate was my girlfriend.  I don't remember if I squelched it or decided it didn't matter what near-strangers thought though. It was co-workers on a company board that didn't really know me in person.  It's like people don't understand being happy not being in a relationship and have to put you in one one way or another.

 

I was very thankful my parents were not hassling me about it.

Edited December 13, 2021 by vonfirmath

[1234]

22 hours ago, MercyA said:

Right there with you on the "asking Jesus into your heart" phrasing. It is well meant but not strictly Biblical. The Bible speaks of trusting Christ, putting one's faith in Christ, following Christ, not "asking Jesus to come live in your heart."

I do not, not, not like the evangelism of young children. Tell them about Jesus, yes. Teach them the stories of the Bible, yes. Explain why Jesus died for us. But pushing for a profession of faith from a child? Nope, I don't think that's helpful and can often be harmful in the long run. My two cents.

Yes! I was baptized three times before I was 18 because I basically was made to feel like I was a very bad girl and was then always told to ‘ask Jesus into my heart’ again. It took me a long while to shake off what church did to me growing up. My own dc were only baptized once and they were older teens who completely made that decision themselves and I never put them in a church like mine growing up.

[Scarlett]

I don't understand the whole 'animal traits' idea and that we should imitate the animals.  The Bible is clear that HUMANS are suppose to dominate the animals.  No where does it say we are to imitate them.  Rather we are suppose to imitate Godly qualities.  

Now as part of the wonder of creation?  Sure, that makes sense....but even then we are living in an imperfect fallen world and that includes the animals.  

 

[maize]

Re: ATI homeschooling--did many people use ONLY their booklets? Even the Duggars claimed to use Switched-on Schoolhouse in addition to the ATI materials.

[Lawyer&Mom]

4 hours ago, Faith-manor said:

Having kept show ducks (Calls and Australian Spotteds) and taking care of a friend's livestock which included Magpies, Muscovies, and Pekins, I can say without hesitation that drakes are some of the most prolific rapists in the world, and the males will kill each other in the absence of enough females to rape. The cries of the ducks, just like those of hens, attempting to escape the drakes is gut wrenching and makes you want to find a lead pipe and bash the males.

So ya. The whole idea of this book is stunningly awful and ascribes traits to these animals that they don't possess. Just more blatant lying in order to further a devious agenda. And it does beg the question, if the worst violent, rapist animals represent obedience is this just one more subtle brainwashing to get children to accept abuse? Some of the kids read this tripe while also living on farms and having witnessed the behavior of some of these animals or had read other books with actual true information about them, but they are being told god wants them to emulate these animal "traits". Therefore, potentially the subtle message "obey your abuser" comes through, at least for some children, and especially in light of what we know about Bill Gothard himself. 

Still slightly traumatized by a childhood camping trip that coincided with duck mating season.  A solid week of watching multiple drakes harass and attack females all around the campground.  Horrifying.   

[Faith-manor]

2 hours ago, Scarlett said:

I don't understand the whole 'animal traits' idea and that we should imitate the animals.  The Bible is clear that HUMANS are suppose to dominate the animals.  No where does it say we are to imitate them.  Rather we are suppose to imitate Godly qualities.  

Now as part of the wonder of creation?  Sure, that makes sense....but even then we are living in an imperfect fallen world and that includes the animals.  

 

Oh, just more horse crap, mumbo jumbo from Bill Gothard for indoctrinating children, that's all. He has/had a lot of absolutely whackadoodle "wisdom" to share. But he also held himself up as having special revelation from god, and as a prophet. So when people follow him, I don't think they realize that they handed Jesus to the coat check lady, and said "Hold this until I want to claim it later", and then promptly put mainstream theology and whatnot in the trash bin.

[Faith-manor]

26 minutes ago, Lawyer&amp;Mom said:

Still slightly traumatized by a childhood camping trip that coincided with duck mating season.  A solid week of watching multiple drakes harass and attack females all around the campground.  Horrifying.   

I know, right???? It is horrible!!!

[Faith-manor]

1 hour ago, maize said:

Re: ATI homeschooling--did many people use ONLY their booklets? Even the Duggars claimed to use Switched-on Schoolhouse in addition to the ATI materials.

Some absolutely do. But some parents supplement, however, even with supplementing they are warned by ATI to be careful because other Christian homeschool curriculums are liberal. There is seriously something demented about an ATI rep calling "Christian Light", " Bob Jones", and "A.C.E." liberal. That is some next level delusion right there!

[ktgrok]

Joy has released a statement - she was the youngest to be molested - she was I think 4 yrs old, and it was the most invasive. Her statement reveals that they attended the trial to find out the facts, says they agree with the verdict, and then says they pray for Anna and the children. To some, that may not sound super forceful, but by NOT saying they pray for Josh they are basically SCREAMING their anger something she was NOT allowed to do before. No more keeping sweet, thank Jesus himself. 

And they didn't say they support the judicial system, they said the verdict was correct. 

Pretty strong wording, and my heart aches for Joy. To learn the details of your own molestation for the first time in a courtroom is beyond awful. 

[Corraleno]

22 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

Pretty strong wording, and my heart aches for Joy. To learn the details of your own molestation for the first time in a courtroom is beyond awful. 

Hearing the graphic details of her own molestation, plus graphic details of the kind of material that Josh was downloading, is horrific enough, but to realize at the same time that her own parents blatantly lied to her and her sisters, in order to protect the person who sexually assaulted them, adds a whole extra level of betrayal. Those girls must be feeling like they woke up in an alternate universe where everything they believed has been turned upside down.

Edited December 13, 2021 by Corraleno

[Faith-manor]

Jill/Derrick, Jinger/Jeremy, and Joy/Austin have all made statements, and they were powerful. But of those three, I think just speaks volumes. And it and to hurt so much to realize that as a little girl, when confronted by people who cared - the Holts - her parents said they didn't want to hear it, didn't care. Talk about just throwing her right under the bus! 😠 Evil. It is evil. JB and Chelle really deserve some prison time of their own!

[Faith-manor]

5 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

Hearing the graphic details of her own molestation, plus graphic details of the kind of material that Josh was downloading, is horrific enough, but to realize at the same time that her own parents blatantly lied to her and her sisters, in order to protect the person who sexually assaulted them, adds a whole extra level of betrayal. Those girls must be feeling like they woke up in an alternate universe where everything they believed has been turned upside down.

I do think Jill suspected. At one point on the show when it was discussed and her parents were downplaying it, she said audibly, "But we were the victims." No response from her parents. I think it took marrying Derrick and telling him everything to find out this is not normal or regular, it is a crime, she was treated abominably, nothing was done that should have been done, and that her feelings and trauma are NOT sin. It took an outside source who loved and cared for her saying, "That is a truck load of horse hockey" for her to begin really looking at it, and seeing it for what it was. She and Jinger are out of the cult. Jessa seems to be very much still in. My hope for Joy is that Austin will help her break free. If faces and clearly choked up eyes are any indication of his feelings, he was one angry, hurt young husband at court.

I think the pukiest moment for Jill and Joy was that absolute waste of skin criminal grabbing them and forcing a hug on them during the break! Can you imagine!? 😠 With all those law enforcement officials and journalists around, they couldn't make a scene but I can only muse just how much Derrick and Austin wanted to pummel him on the spot! 

 

[freesia]

While sad they had to do it to find the truth, I am actually really impressed with the Forsyths and Dillards for going each day in order to learn the truth.  It cannot have been easy at all.  I think Jill couldn't go in case she was called as a witness, but Derek took notes. I don't blame those who didn't go at all(and certainly Jinger does not live close at all), but it took real guts to do it. I hope that it helps them to heal.

[freesia]

1 hour ago, Corraleno said:

Hearing the graphic details of her own molestation, plus graphic details of the kind of material that Josh was downloading, is horrific enough, but to realize at the same time that her own parents blatantly lied to her and her sisters, in order to protect the person who sexually assaulted them, adds a whole extra level of betrayal. Those girls must be feeling like they woke up in an alternate universe where everything they believed has been turned upside down.

I'm so glad they aren't alone or at their parent's houses.  It seems they have supportive husbands who are standing by them.  I also hope that those who aren't getting therapy will be able to access therapy.  Hopefully Jill's example will provide a way.

[Guest]

4 hours ago, Lawyer&amp;Mom said:

Still slightly traumatized by a childhood camping trip that coincided with duck mating season.  A solid week of watching multiple drakes harass and attack females all around the campground.  Horrifying.   

Sidebar, but I have wondered before if kids who grow i seeing a lot of animal mating (like on farms) could get warped or pervy proclivities that way. 🤷🏻‍♀️

[Faith-manor]

1 hour ago, Quill said:

Sidebar, but I have wondered before if kids who grow i seeing a lot of animal mating (like on farms) could get warped or pervy proclivities that way. 🤷🏻‍♀️

I don't know. But I did have a friends who grew up on a pig farm and when she was eleven she asked her mom, "How do people make babies?" Her mom replied, "Pretty much the same way our pigs do." She said she wasn't the remotest bit interested in sex until she was in her mid to late twenties. So it had an effect alright!

Edited December 13, 2021 by Faith-manor

[Catwoman]

3 hours ago, ktgrok said:

Joy has released a statement - she was the youngest to be molested - she was I think 4 yrs old, and it was the most invasive. Her statement reveals that they attended the trial to find out the facts, says they agree with the verdict, and then says they pray for Anna and the children. To some, that may not sound super forceful, but by NOT saying they pray for Josh they are basically SCREAMING their anger something she was NOT allowed to do before. No more keeping sweet, thank Jesus himself. 

And they didn't say they support the judicial system, they said the verdict was correct. 

Pretty strong wording, and my heart aches for Joy. To learn the details of your own molestation for the first time in a courtroom is beyond awful. 

I also noticed that they are “praying for Anna and HER children.”

That says a lot, too. 

[fairfarmhand]

1 hour ago, Quill said:

Sidebar, but I have wondered before if kids who grow i seeing a lot of animal mating (like on farms) could get warped or pervy proclivities that way. 🤷🏻‍♀️

So, for my kids it’s just hammered home the idea that we are above the animals. One of my girls, speaking of our rams, said they were: “all balls and no brain.” And she was right.

the other day we were moving the herd and one cow was in heat. The bull was being so annoying and we struggled to get that cow and him moving. (That Can be pretty dangerous. I don’t recommend it.) the kids were all “cut it out dummy” and “put that thing away!” And “can you just wait 2 minutes, dude?” My girls are always like “I am so glad I am not a cow. Bulls are so gross.”