Confederate flag again

[Ginevra]

In the Confederate Flag thread, I showed you all about the confederate grave at a church yard on which someone put a CF on Memorial Day. It’s still there. I pass it every day on my walk to work. 
 

I often consider sticking it in my purse and disposing of it. But I don’t know if that’s “Two Wrongs Don’t Make a Right” territory or if it is the right thing to do from a SJ perspective. 
 

I don’t know who is considered the owner of the grave, nor do I know who put the flag there and what their motives are. It is possible the church and graveyard are protected in the historical trust and I might be doing a bad and indefensible thing. Or it could be NBD and not something anyone would ever know about or do anything about. 
 

WWTHD? 

[Katy]

A cemetery is one place that should be left alone. 

[Hyacinth]

Interesting question!

As much as I hate to see the confederate flag, I’d probably leave the flag alone if only because it’s not mine to take.

And freedom of speech/expression includes (in fact, depends on) letting others say/display things I find detestable.

I’m curious to hear other Hive opinions. 

Edited July 9, 2021 by Hyacinth
Clarity

[WildflowerMom]

The only think that would do (taking it) is make someone dig in their heels.   

[ktgrok]

I think I'd be curious to see if the person buried there was actually from the time of the confederacy. Still not okay, we don't put out the flags of other enemies of the USA on combatant graves as far as I know, but would at least be somewhat logical. If they are not from that era, I'd send a note to the church asking if they are aware, and if it can be taken down. That people visiting a graveyard are already hurting and vulnerable, and a symbol like that could really be upsetting to visitors. 

Edited July 9, 2021 by ktgrok

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

I think I'd be curious to see if the person buried there was actually from the time of the confederacy. Still not okay, we don't put out the flags of other enemies of the USA on combatant graves as far as I know, but would at least be somewhat logical. If they are not from that era, I'd send a note to the church asking if they are aware, and if it can be taken down. That people visiting a graveyard are already hurting and vulnerable, and a symbol like that could really be upsetting to visitors. 

Well, it is evidently a genuine confederate soldier’s grave. He literally died in 1863. This city is part of the Civil War Trails historical marker, so it is entirely likely that the church and graveyard is not only aware of it, but protected under it. 
 

There are other gravesites there that I *think* are confederate soldiers as well, but they have only an American flag; only one has a CF. That makes me think whomever put the flag there does have a personal connection to that soldier. 
 

I did consider contacting someone from the church, though. I just don’t know how far I’m willing to go to have it removed “officially”. A case could be made that, if it is in the historical registry, that may actually be an appropriate place for the flag. 

[Junie]

Personally, I think the grave of a Confederate soldier would be the one of the only appropriate locations to put the flag.

[Guest]

Ok, so this is interesting. I looked up historical markers and the cemetery is indeed in it and the soldier in question must have died in Corbit’s Charge, June 29, 1863. I think that does actually explain the confederate flag rather well and it would be wrong to take it. 
 

There are historical tours that include this cemetery and I think I will sign up for one. 

[marbel]

I agree with others; leave it alone; it is not your decision to make.  I wouldn't contact the church either - there are plenty of people actually connected to it that could request it be removed (members of the church, people who visit the graves, caretakers).  

ETA: I see you updated while I was typing this. Glad you looked it up and I think a tour would be interesting. I hope your mind is more at ease now.

 

Edited July 9, 2021 by marbel

[pinball]

1 hour ago, Quill said:

In the Confederate Flag thread, I showed you all about the confederate grave at a church yard on which someone put a CF on Memorial Day. It’s still there. I pass it every day on my walk to work. 
 

I often consider sticking it in my purse and disposing of it. But I don’t know if that’s “Two Wrongs Don’t Make a Right” territory or if it is the right thing to do from a SJ perspective. 
 

I don’t know who is considered the owner of the grave, nor do I know who put the flag there and what their motives are. It is possible the church and graveyard are protected in the historical trust and I might be doing a bad and indefensible thing. Or it could be NBD and not something anyone would ever know about or do anything about. 
 

WWTHD? 

Is the issue the Confederate flag? Or is it the fact that someone is honoring (or calling attention to? Acknowledging?) a Confederate soldier?

[Guest]

1 minute ago, pinball said:

Is the issue the Confederate flag? Or is it the fact that someone is honoring (or calling attention to? Acknowledging?) a Confederate soldier?

*To me personally*, someone putting the flag there *seems* to symbolize a show of support for racist ideology. There is genuinely plenty of sentiment to that effect in this area. Though now that I know that grave is literally historical, it bothers me less and I am more convinced that it is there as a historical marker, not a sinister symbol. 

[lauraw4321]

I’m not offended by confederate flags on the graves of confederate soldiers. 

[pinball]

Just now, Quill said:

*To me personally*, someone putting the flag there *seems* to symbolize a show of support for racist ideology. There is genuinely plenty of sentiment to that effect in this area. Though now that I know that grave is literally historical, it bothers me less and I am more convinced that it is there as a historical marker, not a sinister symbol. 

Do you think someone can be supporting a racist ideology by putting a bouquet on a Confederate soldier’s grave?

[Guest]

14 minutes ago, pinball said:

Do you think someone can be supporting a racist ideology by putting a bouquet on a Confederate soldier’s grave?

They could be, but I would not think that if it were a bouquet of flowers. People don’t use bouquets of flowers to support an ideology. They do use flags for that. 

[Pam in CT]

re real history in its real place

24 minutes ago, Quill said:

Ok, so this is interesting. I looked up historical markers and the cemetery is indeed in it and the soldier in question must have died in Corbit’s Charge, June 29, 1863. I think that does actually explain the confederate flag rather well and it would be wrong to take it. 
 

There are historical tours that include this cemetery and I think I will sign up for one. 

Danielle I am so glad your conscience was pricked, you held off on your initial impulse, you did the work, you unearthed the context, you uncovered this morsel of your area's actual history and it's inspired you to go even a little bit further and learn a little bit more.  May we all be so temperate about acting on our initial responses, methodical in our working them through, and open to learning more.

You are a role model.

 

 

re neutral vs laden markers

11 minutes ago, pinball said:

Do you think someone can be supporting a racist ideology by putting a bouquet on a Confederate soldier’s grave?

No. Flowers are neutral. Flowers have no history or association with violence in the name of enforced white supremacy.

[pinball]

Just now, Quill said:

They could be, but I would not think that if it were a bouquet of flowers. People don’t use bouquets of flowers to support an ideology. They do use flags for that. 

But aren’t they (the person placing the flowers) using the flowers to support someone who presumedly was willing to kill to support what is considered a racist ideology?

The last flag thread used words like traitor, etc to describe Confederates

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, pinball said:

But aren’t they (the person placing the flowers) using the flowers to support someone who presumedly was willing to kill to support what is considered a racist ideology?

The last flag thread used words like traitor, etc to describe Confederates

It is different for the reason Pam just outlined. Flowers are neutral. They don’t symbolize support for the confederate cause. Even if a person put flowers there and *internally means* support for a soldier who fought against Union ideals, onlookers would not know that from flowers. 
 

People use flags to symbolize sympathy with a particular agenda. So that is why it’s different. 

[mommyoffive]

44 minutes ago, Quill said:

Ok, so this is interesting. I looked up historical markers and the cemetery is indeed in it and the soldier in question must have died in Corbit’s Charge, June 29, 1863. I think that does actually explain the confederate flag rather well and it would be wrong to take it. 
 

There are historical tours that include this cemetery and I think I will sign up for one. 

Glad you looked into and that it made you feel a little better about it? 

I think it is so easy to judge things without knowing the full story.  My neighbor collects things inside their garage and out in their yard.  In their yard it is a huge stack of bikes.  I am not talking about 4 bikes, but hundreds.  The stack is almost as high as their house and wide.  A delivery driver asked me what the deal was.  She was judging them to be some horrible hoarder situation and negative to live by and have in the neighborhood.  What really is going on is my neighbors moved here a few years ago from Africa.  They have a ministry there.  Once or twice a year they get a huge semi truck park it in front of their house and load up all the things they have collected to send back to Africa.  They fill up the whole thing with cars, bikes, food, and on and on.

[Goldcrest]

53 minutes ago, Pam in CT said:

re real history in its real place

Danielle I am so glad your conscience was pricked, you held off on your initial impulse, you did the work, you unearthed the context, you uncovered this morsel of your area's actual history and it's inspired you to go even a little bit further and learn a little bit more.  May we all be so temperate about acting on our initial responses, methodical in our working them through, and open to learning more.

You are a role model.

 

 

re neutral vs laden markers

No. Flowers are neutral. Flowers have no history or association with violence in the name of enforced white supremacy.

This seems largely beyond, to praise someone for simply holding herself back from what would be simple theft. 

It didn't need context. It's not role modeling either. This is silly.

Removing something you do not own, placing it in your purse, and disposing of it is stealing, whether you agree with the context of the item or not. Unless her family owns the burial plot, Quill has no rights to dispose of the things on it.  I would hope the laws where she lives would have standards against such behaviour. 

The same way it is stealing when people take political signs from one another's homes, or flags from their porches, it is all theft. Quill considered theft. Quill decided to not participate in theft. This is hardly worthy of lauds and commendation. Respect of personal property should be a given and not a point of consideration that only when one deems said personal property to be "non-laden" is it worthy of protection. 

Edited July 9, 2021 by Holmesschooler

[marbel]

2 hours ago, Quill said:

it is the right thing to do from a SJ perspective. 

So now that it's all settled, I'm still thinking about this. What positive SJ outcome would taking the flag (from a private place) have? Just wondering about the thought process there. 

[Guest]

24 minutes ago, marbel said:

So now that it's all settled, I'm still thinking about this. What positive SJ outcome would taking the flag (from a private place) have? Just wondering about the thought process there. 

Thought process for ME: I think think the CF is a hurtful symbol to those whose ancestors were enslaved. If I were an African American of enslaved ancestry, I think that symbol would feel like a “message” - like saying, there are still sympathizers here and we support that ideology. 
 

I would be happy to see that flag spurned from usage pretty much everywhere. I do see some *logic* in it existing there, now that I know the historical significance, but I think the world would be a better place without it. Other confederate symbols were not questioned until pretty recently; only by questioning it does society change. 

[Ditto]

3 hours ago, WildflowerMom said:

The only think that would do (taking it) is make someone dig in their heels.   

This is my feeling as well.  I would leave it alone.

[marbel]

30 minutes ago, Quill said:

Thought process for ME: I think think the CF is a hurtful symbol to those whose ancestors were enslaved. If I were an African American of enslaved ancestry, I think that symbol would feel like a “message” - like saying, there are still sympathizers here and we support that ideology. 
 

I would be happy to see that flag spurned from usage pretty much everywhere. I do see some *logic* in it existing there, now that I know the historical significance, but I think the world would be a better place without it. Other confederate symbols were not questioned until pretty recently; only by questioning it does society change. 

Well, right, I was thinking your thought process, LOL! Of course it's good for people to question, etc., because, sure, that's how things change in any aspect of life. ("Why do we do this this way?" "I dunno, that's how we've always done it.") I was just wondering how you came to consider taking it upon yourself to remove the flag. Thanks for responding!  

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, marbel said:

Well, right, I was thinking your thought process, LOL! Of course it's good for people to question, etc., because, sure, that's how things change in any aspect of life. ("Why do we do this this way?" "I dunno, that's how we've always done it.") I was just wondering how you came to consider taking it upon yourself to remove the flag. Thanks for responding!  

Well, basically that: am I being part of the problem or part of the solution. That was my thinking. 

[pinball]

2 hours ago, Quill said:

It is different for the reason Pam just outlined. Flowers are neutral. They don’t symbolize support for the confederate cause. Even if a person put flowers there and *internally means* support for a soldier who fought against Union ideals, onlookers would not know that from flowers. 
 

People use flags to symbolize sympathy with a particular agenda. So that is why it’s different. 

 

Is it possible to mind read what someone means by putting THIS object vs THAT object on a grave? 

And it is what the onlookers FEEL and  KNOW based on what object they see?

Hmmm...

what if onlookers decide it is offensive just to SEE  a confederate grave or graveyard? Sans both flags and flowers

[Katy]

1 hour ago, Quill said:

Thought process for ME: I think think the CF is a hurtful symbol to those whose ancestors were enslaved. If I were an African American of enslaved ancestry, I think that symbol would feel like a “message” - like saying, there are still sympathizers here and we support that ideology. 
 

I would be happy to see that flag spurned from usage pretty much everywhere. I do see some *logic* in it existing there, now that I know the historical significance, but I think the world would be a better place without it. Other confederate symbols were not questioned until pretty recently; only by questioning it does society change. 

 

37 minutes ago, Quill said:

Well, basically that: am I being part of the problem or part of the solution. That was my thinking. 

I’ve never cared enough to visit my confederate ancestors graves.  Or Revolutionary war ancestors graves, for that matter.  I haven’t joined the DAR or the daughters of the confederacy. But I have relatives that have, and deeply care about history, and still believe the propaganda about that flag, and haven’t read the founding documents about the confederacy. They don’t know it was about slavery.  

They are good but uninformed people.  In their minds, in their childhoods in the 1990’s the rules changed.  The flag became a private thing, and you didn’t put it on your truck or wear one at school anymore because it was hurtful.  But it’s also a symbol of not letting people starve your family and your region to death. 

All they know is family stories about how their family’s house was burned and their food was stolen so they would starve.  And they still share recipes made with corn meal and collard greens on social media with stories that these foods became so popular in the South because the yankees stole or destroyed everything else, and thought those foods that kept the whole South from starvation was only good enough for livestock.  And it isn’t only about the confederacy.  They also share stories about how red lipstick and red nail polish were important in WWII because Hitler hated them.

A confederate grave is the appropriate place to grieve an ancestor you may have never met, but have certainly heard stories about.  Thinking you have the right to remove a symbol that is meaningful to many people from a private grave because 150 years later it’s become important to remove those symbols from public property is problematic. 

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, pinball said:

 

Is it possible to mind read what someone means by putting THIS object vs THAT object on a grave? 

And it is what the onlookers FEEL and  KNOW based on what object they see?

Hmmm...

what if onlookers decide it is offensive just to SEE  a confederate grave or graveyard? Sans both flags and flowers

I don’t accept your “Slippery Slope” argument. Confederate soldiers died and were buried in graves with grave markers denoting their military status. That is a fact that few, if any, people would want obliterated. Dead bodies gotta go somewhere. Even criminals and many kinds of unsavory people have a burial plot with a grave marker. 
 

In society, we attach meaning to many objects: what does it mean when someone wears a cross pendant? What does it mean if they wear the hijab? What does it mean if they fly a gay pride flag in their front yard? What does it mean if they have a white hood and cloak hanging on the wall in their living room? It’s silly to pretend there’s no meaning attached to these symbols. 

[Pam in CT]

re mindreading One, vs listening to MANY

8 minutes ago, pinball said:

Is it possible to mind read what someone means by putting THIS object vs THAT object on a grave? 

And it is what the onlookers FEEL and  KNOW based on what object they see?

Hmmm...

what if onlookers decide it is offensive just to SEE  a confederate grave or graveyard? Sans both flags and flowers

I agree: it is not possible to mind-read the individual who places an object on a grave.  That is why I seriously commend Danielle for doing the work she did to understand the context of that particular grave. (She still, of course, doesn't know the identity of individual who left the flag, or that individual's motives.  For all she or your or I know, that person could be a diehard white supremacist whose hobby is to affirmatively look up Confederate soldiers in little towns across antebellum America, and tromp out to their graves to put out Confederate flags in the express and explicit hopes of arousing the passions of recruits to the white supremacist cause. Unlikely: but possible.  If she goes on the tour, OTOH, she may well learn that the tour organizers put out the flags so as to quickly ID where the tour is headed: that would be additional context.)

What is possible, is to listen to the many, many, many voices of people on the receiving end of white supremacist violence, about what the Confederate flag means and feels to them.  (#NotAllPOC, sure, but, enough that basic decency and basic manners means, pick another symbol.

 

re "simple theft"

2 hours ago, Holmesschooler said:

This seems largely beyond, to praise someone for simply holding herself back from what would be simple theft. 

It didn't need context. It's not role modeling either. This is silly.

Removing something you do not own, placing it in your purse, and disposing of it is stealing, whether you agree with the context of the item or not. Unless her family owns the burial plot, Quill has no rights to dispose of the things on it.  I would hope the laws where she lives would have standards against such behaviour. 

The same way it is stealing when people take political signs from one another's homes, or flags from their porches, it is all theft. Quill considered theft. Quill decided to not participate in theft. This is hardly worthy of lauds and commendation. Respect of personal property should be a given and not a point of consideration that only when one deems said personal property to be "non-laden" is it worthy of protection. 

Quill considered a range of options as she processed the dueling values (including compassion pulling for removal vs honesty dictating against) that she brought to this issue, including contacting the burial site officials.  W,ho necessarily clean up all sorts of dead flowers, weather-beaten teddy bears, paper and plastic remnants, and, to this point, time- and weather-beaten flags left on graves.  (An aside, but as a former Girl Scout: there is a reasonable argument that leaving an American flag on a gravesite until it disintegrates is disrespectful to the flag.) 

Is it "theft" when they do it after a good rain?  Is it "theft" if they have a Terms of Service code that dictates against, for example, profane messages?  Is it "theft" if they don't have an express and posted Terms of Service code, but occasionally remove items they deem as inappropriate for what is meant to be sanctified space for *all* families?

 

[I would not, myself, pluck up and remove anything from a grave. But I would not, myself, consider requesting the site authorities to remove a swastika, or a sign saying F@CK (Name of Deceased, even if the deceased were not my own loved one), or a Confederate Flag, to be -- in ANY way -- "theft."]

[pinball]

25 minutes ago, Quill said:

I don’t accept your “Slippery Slope” argument. Confederate soldiers died and were buried in graves with grave markers denoting their military status. That is a fact that few, if any, people would want obliterated. Dead bodies gotta go somewhere. Even criminals and many kinds of unsavory people have a burial plot with a grave marker. 
 

In society, we attach meaning to many objects: what does it mean when someone wears a cross pendant? What does it mean if they wear the hijab? What does it mean if they fly a gay pride flag in their front yard? What does it mean if they have a white hood and cloak hanging on the wall in their living room? It’s silly to pretend there’s no meaning attached to these symbols. 

What was a Confederate soldier’s military status, according to you?

Bc some WTM people consider them traitors

im not going to presume to know what anyone knows about Confederate soldiers, citizenship, veteran status, pensions, care of graves and cemeteries, etc...but it is fascinating.

lots to ponder 

[Goldcrest]

42 minutes ago, Pam in CT said:

re mindreading One, vs listening to MANY

I agree: it is not possible to mind-read the individual who places an object on a grave.  That is why I seriously commend Danielle for doing the work she did to understand the context of that particular grave. (She still, of course, doesn't know the identity of individual who left the flag, or that individual's motives.  For all she or your or I know, that person could be a diehard white supremacist whose hobby is to affirmatively look up Confederate soldiers in little towns across antebellum America, and tromp out to their graves to put out Confederate flags in the express and explicit hopes of arousing the passions of recruits to the white supremacist cause. Unlikely: but possible.  If she goes on the tour, OTOH, she may well learn that the tour organizers put out the flags so as to quickly ID where the tour is headed: that would be additional context.)

What is possible, is to listen to the many, many, many voices of people on the receiving end of white supremacist violence, about what the Confederate flag means and feels to them.  (#NotAllPOC, sure, but, enough that basic decency and basic manners means, pick another symbol.

 

re "simple theft"

Quill considered a range of options as she processed the dueling values (including compassion pulling for removal vs honesty dictating against) that she brought to this issue, including contacting the burial site officials.  W,ho necessarily clean up all sorts of dead flowers, weather-beaten teddy bears, paper and plastic remnants, and, to this point, time- and weather-beaten flags left on graves.  (An aside, but as a former Girl Scout: there is a reasonable argument that leaving an American flag on a gravesite until it disintegrates is disrespectful to the flag.) 

Is it "theft" when they do it after a good rain?  Is it "theft" if they have a Terms of Service code that dictates against, for example, profane messages?  Is it "theft" if they don't have an express and posted Terms of Service code, but occasionally remove items they deem as inappropriate for what is meant to be sanctified space for *all* families?

 

[I would not, myself, pluck up and remove anything from a grave. But I would not, myself, consider requesting the site authorities to remove a swastika, or a sign saying F@CK (Name of Deceased, even if the deceased were not my own loved one), or a Confederate Flag, to be -- in ANY way -- "theft."]

She discussed pulling it out, putting it in her purse, and throwing it in a bin. That is theft. She isn't employed by the cemetery. She is not volunteering at the cemetery. She has no affiliation with the cemetery or the family, so it's not as if she are part and parcel of cemetery maintenance. She considered stealing something that was not hers and throwing it in a bin. 

As mentioned above, people assign meanings to all types of things. That doesn't give anyone a right to take and dispose of things on private property.  If the flag in question were that flown by many other causes, people in these threads would be outraged and lambasting the behaviour of the thieves. 

Even if her removing the flag was not something citation worthy due to its low value, it would seem there is a lot of hyper-justification here to try and give her a pass at stealing something. Your feelings around this do not justify the fact that Quill was looking to remove something that was not hers, simply on the fact that she personally found it reprehensible. Remove "confederate flag" from that situation, and substitute something else  and that digs a very deep pit quite quickly as far as behaviour standards go, if persons get a pass at taking or defacing things they find upsetting and are justified in that behavior by those who share similar views. 

The American Way seems to be largely complaining and being outraged over things, so in this case, that would be the way to go. Approach the cemetery. Approach the city. Voice your outrage. Complain away. But do not steal things. And do not applaud or head pat a 50-something year old adult women employed by a law firm for restraining herself from nicking something she has no ownership or business in. It's just embarrassing to even be here at this point that grown post middle aged women are engaging in this sort of theatric. 

Edited July 9, 2021 by Holmesschooler

[Ellie]

5 hours ago, Quill said:

In the Confederate Flag thread, I showed you all about the confederate grave at a church yard on which someone put a CF on Memorial Day. It’s still there. I pass it every day on my walk to work.

I often consider sticking it in my purse and disposing of it. But I don’t know if that’s “Two Wrongs Don’t Make a Right” territory or if it is the right thing to do from a SJ perspective.

I don’t know who is considered the owner of the grave, nor do I know who put the flag there and what their motives are. It is possible the church and graveyard are protected in the historical trust and I might be doing a bad and indefensible thing. Or it could be NBD and not something anyone would ever know about or do anything about.

WWTHD? 

MYOB. Who am I--or you--to decide what is appropriate for someone to put on a grave?

[Guest]

31 minutes ago, pinball said:

What was a Confederate soldier’s military status, according to you?

Bc some WTM people consider them traitors

im not going to presume to know what anyone knows about Confederate soldiers, citizenship, veteran status, pensions, care of graves and cemeteries, etc...but it is fascinating.

lots to ponder 

I don’t think they are worthy of any honor beyond the ordinary respect afforded to any person’s grave. I do view confederate soldiers as enemies to the United States - because they were - but I can understand a person believing they must fight for their way of life. I can (philosophically) understand someone from the south believing they must take up arms against the Union. 

[Guest]

That doesn't give anyone a right to take and dispose of things on private property.  
 

Not to split hairs, but it may not be designated as “private” property since it is in the historic trust. I am not 100% sure it is, but if it is maintained by the city’s historic trust, it may be “public”. 🤷🏻‍♀️
 

[Katy]

Just now, Quill said:

That doesn't give anyone a right to take and dispose of things on private property.  
 

Not to split hairs, but it may not be designated as “private” property since it is in the historic trust. I am not 100% sure it is, but if it is maintained by the city’s historic trust, it may be “public”. 🤷🏻‍♀️
 

It's someone's ancestor.  GGG Uncle or GGG grandfather. The flag may have been placed there by a historical society, but it doesn't matter. It isn't flying in the capital, and the argument was to take the flag that is deeply meaningful to some people and keep it private, like in cemeteries and historical sites and museums.  So you find one at a historical cemetery and you're angry it exists it's hypothetically offensive, not to you but to others?  Free speech means people have a right to be offensive, especially in places like that where someone died for the cause.  All of these "traitors," many of whom had no choice but to fight initially, and then were fighting for their homes and families and neighbors because of horror stories, every single one of them, was pardoned.  I don't see what committing a crime will solve. The flag will be replaced immediately anyway, and if anything it will be a rallying cry for fundraising to place the flags on every confederate grave.

[Katy]

Most historic trusts are private.

[SKL]

I'm kind of shocked that someone asked this question.

Freedom of speech among other things.

[Pam in CT]

re considering an option.... and then putting it aside

51 minutes ago, Holmesschooler said:

She discussed pulling it out, putting it in her purse, and throwing it in a bin. That is theft. She isn't employed by the cemetery. She is not volunteering at the cemetery. She has no affiliation with the cemetery or the family, so it's not as if she are part and parcel of cemetery maintenance. She considered stealing something that was not hers and throwing it in a bin.

...As mentioned above, people assign meanings to all types of things. That doesn't give anyone a right to take and dispose of things on private property.  

Indeed: she did consider that option.  And then: she put that option aside.

She exercised precisely the judgment and self-restraint that you advocate as appropriate for 50-something grown @ss women, and discarded that option for roughly the reasons you outline  (FWIW: I am a big proponent of judgment and self-restraint, though not always able to meet the mark in practice).

And THEN -- this is the part that I admire: she went further. She cast about for options beyond Do Nothing At All vs Simple Theft.  She didn't just sigh with resignation, or fester with frustration, or vent on SM. 

She considered contacting the cemetery, as you suggest below might be a reasonable step.  But before she did so she did some homework, and actually found real information that provided real context.  That context changed how she approached the issue.  Specifically, what the new information she uncovered did was, mitigate her initial response.  Indeed: she was sufficiently open to what she learned, that she may now go on a tour and learn more.

That is the *opposite* of outrage, or cancel culture, or kneejerk stoopid.

 

Would that her response really was The American Way.

51 minutes ago, Holmesschooler said:

...The American Way seems to be largely complaining and being outraged over things, so in this case, that would be the way to go. Approach the cemetery. Approach the city. Voice your outrage. Complain away. But do not steal things. And do not applaud or head pat a 50-something year old adult women employed by a law firm for restraining herself from nicking something she has no ownership or business in. It's just embarrassing to even be here at this point that grown post middle aged women are engaging in this sort of theatric. 

😕

1. Perhaps she wasn't clear: she didn't nick anything.

2. Perhaps I wasn't clear: I applaud the grappling & research work she did AFTER deciding to not-nick, not the not-nicking.

3. She wasn't "outraged"; she was looking to make a small difference towards a slightly kinder world.  I am not "outraged"; I admire her efforts toward that end.  How are you feeling?  Because if you're feeling "embarrassed" by what you are labeling "theatrics" ..... it is an option, to simply leave a thread that isn't doing it for you.

 

[Idalou]

https://www.everycrsreport.com/reports/IN10313.html

This is interesting, it explains how national cemeteries deal with the topic.  I have seen circle shaped, metal grave markers denoting Civil War veterans. I would never, ever remove a flag from a grave, even though I find this particular flag to be so much more than offensive. I think that Congress has declared them to be American veterans, even if they were traitors to the USA  who committed treason. I would guess many who were killed had been duped into their lost cause, similar to the rah rah patriotic propoganda we are experiencing today.

 

[pinball]

2 hours ago, Pam in CT said:

re mindreading One, vs listening to MANY

I agree: it is not possible to mind-read the individual who places an object on a grave.  That is why I seriously commend Danielle for doing the work she did to understand the context of that particular grave. (She still, of course, doesn't know the identity of individual who left the flag, or that individual's motives.  For all she or your or I know, that person could be a diehard white supremacist whose hobby is to affirmatively look up Confederate soldiers in little towns across antebellum America, and tromp out to their graves to put out Confederate flags in the express and explicit hopes of arousing the passions of recruits to the white supremacist cause. Unlikely: but possible.  If she goes on the tour, OTOH, she may well learn that the tour organizers put out the flags so as to quickly ID where the tour is headed: that would be additional context.)

What is possible, is to listen to the many, many, many voices of people on the receiving end of white supremacist violence, about what the Confederate flag means and feels to them.  (#NotAllPOC, sure, but, enough that basic decency and basic manners means, pick another symbol.

 

re "simple theft"

Quill considered a range of options as she processed the dueling values (including compassion pulling for removal vs honesty dictating against) that she brought to this issue, including contacting the burial site officials.  W,ho necessarily clean up all sorts of dead flowers, weather-beaten teddy bears, paper and plastic remnants, and, to this point, time- and weather-beaten flags left on graves.  (An aside, but as a former Girl Scout: there is a reasonable argument that leaving an American flag on a gravesite until it disintegrates is disrespectful to the flag.) 

Is it "theft" when they do it after a good rain?  Is it "theft" if they have a Terms of Service code that dictates against, for example, profane messages?  Is it "theft" if they don't have an express and posted Terms of Service code, but occasionally remove items they deem as inappropriate for what is meant to be sanctified space for *all* families?

 

[I would not, myself, pluck up and remove anything from a grave. But I would not, myself, consider requesting the site authorities to remove a swastika, or a sign saying F@CK (Name of Deceased, even if the deceased were not my own loved one), or a Confederate Flag, to be -- in ANY way -- "theft."]

So as to your bolded...

it is possible that people on the “receiving end of white supremacist violence” will call on allies to support them in...

not allowing confederate flags as grave decorations bc the dead fought for the cause of slavery

OR 

not allowing any form of any grave decorations for confederate soldiers bc the dead fought for the cause of slavery

OR

shuttering confederate cemeteries bc the dead fought for the cause of slavery

 

[Danae]

15 minutes ago, pinball said:

So as to your bolded...

it is possible that people on the “receiving end of white supremacist violence” will call on allies to support them in...

not allowing confederate flags as grave decorations bc the dead fought for the cause of slavery

OR 

not allowing any form of any grave decorations for confederate soldiers bc the dead fought for the cause of slavery

OR

shuttering confederate cemeteries bc the dead fought for the cause of slavery

 

Or we could dig up all the bodies, try them for treason, and hang them. If we’re going to slippery-slope this let’s lean-in.  

[Goldcrest]

52 minutes ago, Pam in CT said:

re considering an option.... and then putting it aside

Indeed: she did consider that option.  And then: she put that option aside.

She exercised precisely the judgment and self-restraint that you advocate as appropriate for 50-something grown @ss women, and discarded that option for roughly the reasons you outline  (FWIW: I am a big proponent of judgment and self-restraint, though not always able to meet the mark in practice).

And THEN -- this is the part that I admire: she went further. She cast about for options beyond Do Nothing At All vs Simple Theft.  She didn't just sigh with resignation, or fester with frustration, or vent on SM. 

She considered contacting the cemetery, as you suggest below might be a reasonable step.  But before she did so she did some homework, and actually found real information that provided real context.  That context changed how she approached the issue.  Specifically, what the new information she uncovered did was, mitigate her initial response.  Indeed: she was sufficiently open to what she learned, that she may now go on a tour and learn more.

That is the *opposite* of outrage, or cancel culture, or kneejerk stoopid.

 

Would that her response really was The American Way.

😕

1. Perhaps she wasn't clear: she didn't nick anything.

2. Perhaps I wasn't clear: I applaud the grappling & research work she did AFTER deciding to not-nick, not the not-nicking.

3. She wasn't "outraged"; she was looking to make a small difference towards a slightly kinder world.  I am not "outraged"; I admire her efforts toward that end.  How are you feeling?  Because if you're feeling "embarrassed" by what you are labeling "theatrics" ..... it is an option, to simply leave a thread that isn't doing it for you.

 

I feel as if you are talking down to small children in your phrasing, and missing what was actually said. She stopped herself from nicking a flag on impulse. What deep thought and restraint indeed. Clearly a celebratory accomplishment. You are of course free to laud her in a performative manner. Others are free to make comments as they will additionally.  

As to how I am feeling, since you asked, I am embarrassed honestly by what this group of women has turned into, and frankly ashamed I ever spent so much time here in past years. White women applauding each other over restraint from taking something from a cemetery however, is perhaps a new low. And yes, I will leave the thread and the group to its celebrations at this point. Good day. 

[Pam in CT]

re "not allowing" / "shuttering" by collective public policy, vs "manners" by individuals

12 minutes ago, pinball said:

So as to your bolded...

it is possible that people on the “receiving end of white supremacist violence” will call on allies to support them in...

not allowing confederate flags as grave decorations bc the dead fought for the cause of slavery

OR 

not allowing any form of any grave decorations for confederate soldiers bc the dead fought for the cause of slavery

OR

shuttering confederate cemeteries bc the dead fought for the cause of slavery

 

Sure. It is possible that as a collective, "allies" against white supremacist violence could call for prohibitions on particular grave decorations or for "shuttering" confederate cemeteries.

[No one on this thread has called for anything anywhere in the neighborhood of such public policies.   I am not aware of anybody anywhere who has called for mandated prohibitions on graves, and I don't know what "shuttering" an existing cemetery would even mean.  But sure, as a hypothetical matter, people could call for any number of things, including these things.]

Such calls, if made, would not be successful. 

Beyond the crystal clear 1A protections that would dismantle any such efforts if they somehow made it to actual public policy... political sentiment would not permit them to be enacted in the first place. See: the "CRT" bans sweeping the nation.  THAT is the "expression" that political sentiment is determined to restrict. The argument, there, is to protect kids from content that could conceivably "cause distress" by suggesting "the superiority of one race over others."

Of course, such racial superiority is precisely what the Confederate flag suggests. It is, literally, the flag of a secession based on the superiority of one race over another. A war to sustain that superiority. A symbol that subsequently waved over public lynchings of blacks to which whites brought Sunday picnic lunches, a symbol that waved alongside crosses burned by whites on black families' yards, a symbol whose popularity surged in the wake of Brown v Ed and the Voting Rights Act, a symbol recently carried into the nation's Capitol by insurgents seeking to overturn an election  whose results they didn't like.  That is (a smattering sample of) why the Confederate Flag "causes distress." Because the historical facts of when it has been used, by whom, on whom, have ... suggested... the superiority of one race over others.

But the "CRT" brouhaha makes pretty clear Whose Distress Matters.

 

I strongly support the First Amendment, and FTR neither "call for" nor quietly long for collective, mandated legislative prohibitions of what folks leave on gravesites.  For fairly analogous reasons I also am opposed to the sweeping content bans sweeping state legislatures in the wake of the (to my mind, very clearly top-down astroturfed) in the name of "CRT."

What I long for is individual manners.  If a person genuinely wishes to honor ancestors going back multiple generations... there is a range of good choices of what to leave. It's a *choice,* to leave a Confederate flag rather than flowers or a poem or letter. It's a choice that any even vaguely aware person today knows has an effect on others.  Is that effect kind, compassionate, leading us to better relations across our hurt and divide?  Is the effect you know the Confederate flag will have on some, the effect that you're aiming for? 

That's all.  Not public policy, not bans, not shuttering -- just manners.

But that is a very great deal.

[pinball]

6 minutes ago, Pam in CT said:

re "not allowing" / "shuttering" by collective public policy, vs "manners" by individuals

Sure. It is possible that as a collective, "allies" against white supremacist violence could call for prohibitions on particular grave decorations or for "shuttering" confederate cemeteries.

[No one on this thread has called for anything anywhere in the neighborhood of such public policies.   I am not aware of anybody anywhere who has called for mandated prohibitions on graves, and I don't know what "shuttering" an existing cemetery would even mean.  But sure, as a hypothetical matter, people could call for any number of things, including these things.]

Such calls, if made, would not be successful. 

Beyond the crystal clear 1A protections that would dismantle any such efforts if they somehow made it to actual public policy... political sentiment would not permit them to be enacted in the first place. See: the "CRT" bans sweeping the nation.  THAT is the "expression" that political sentiment is determined to restrict. The argument, there, is to protect kids from content that could conceivably "cause distress" by suggesting "the superiority of one race over others."

Of course, such racial superiority is precisely what the Confederate flag suggests. It is, literally, the flag of a secession based on the superiority of one race over another. A war to sustain that superiority. A symbol that subsequently waved over public lynchings of blacks to which whites brought Sunday picnic lunches, a symbol that waved alongside crosses burned by whites on black families' yards, a symbol whose popularity surged in the wake of Brown v Ed and the Voting Rights Act, a symbol recently carried into the nation's Capitol by insurgents seeking to overturn an election  whose results they didn't like.  That is (a smattering sample of) why the Confederate Flag "causes distress." Because the historical facts of when it has been used, by whom, on whom, have ... suggested... the superiority of one race over others.

But the "CRT" brouhaha makes pretty clear Whose Distress Matters.

 

I strongly support the First Amendment, and FTR neither "call for" nor quietly long for collective, mandated legislative prohibitions of what folks leave on gravesites.  For fairly analogous reasons I also am opposed to the sweeping content bans sweeping state legislatures in the wake of the (to my mind, very clearly top-down astroturfed) in the name of "CRT."

What I long for is individual manners.  If a person genuinely wishes to honor ancestors going back multiple generations... there is a range of good choices of what to leave. It's a *choice,* to leave a Confederate flag rather than flowers or a poem or letter. It's a choice that any even vaguely aware person today knows has an effect on others.  Is that effect kind, compassionate, leading us to better relations across our hurt and divide?  Is the effect you know the Confederate flag will have on some, the effect that you're aiming for? 

That's all.  Not public policy, not bans, not shuttering -- just manners.

But that is a very great deal.

It seems kind of shallow to ask for people to use manners when the topic is slavery.

Edited July 9, 2021 by pinball
Typo...changed like to kind

[Pam in CT]

6 minutes ago, pinball said:

It seems kind of shallow to ask for people to use manners when the topic is slavery.

Same with swastikas.  I fully agree that a gentle plea for "manners" pales in comparison to the pain of the topics at hand.

And yet, it is clearly too much to ask.

[KSera]

1 hour ago, Holmesschooler said:

I feel as if you are talking down to small children in your phrasing, and missing what was actually said. She stopped herself from nicking a flag on impulse. What deep thought and restraint indeed. Clearly a celebratory accomplishment. You are of course free to laud her in a performative manner. Others are free to make comments as they will additionally.  

As to how I am feeling, since you asked, I am embarrassed honestly by what this group of women has turned into, and frankly ashamed I ever spent so much time here in past years. White women applauding each other over restraint from taking something from a cemetery however, is perhaps a new low. And yes, I will leave the thread and the group to its celebrations at this point. Good day. 

Did you read the whole post you’re responding to? Pam said very clearly that what she was admiring was that Quill took the time to go further than her brief thoughts about the flag and actually did the research and learned something. She was very clear it wasn’t the lack of flag nicking she was applauding. In light of that, your doubled-down response makes no sense. 
 

I’m dismayed at the recent pattern of some long time posters who were long in the majority view position on this forum deciding that no longer being clearly so means the problem is everyone else. I think discussions used to get a lot more heated here than they do now, yet still, people didn’t pack up their blocks and go home. 

[pinball]

5 minutes ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

I have plenty of Confederate ancestors and I think they were traitors. What's the big deal in saying this? My mother was looking at something recently about her great great something something grandfather who fought for the Confederacy. He was pardoned after spending time in a prisoner of war camp. 

Have Nazi symbols been removed from German WWII cemeteries? I remember back in the 1980s how Reagan spoke at a cemetery that had SS soldiers buried there. 

 

 

The US removed Nazi symbols graves of German POWs buried in the US

[pinball]

2 minutes ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

Thanks. What about the cemeteries in Germany? 

Respectfully. Do your own research.

 

[Melissa Louise]

It's worth thinking about how much of our activism (or allyship) is conducted at the symbolic level, and how much is at the material level.

Giving our time and money is generally a stronger expression of solidarity than remaining at the level of the symbol.

If I was worried about a part of my community, I think I'd err on the side of volunteering and donating, and leave graves alone. 

 

[pinball]

7 minutes ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

I'm reminded of the question I asked you a few weeks ago about why you are so rude to people on this forum. Really? I asked because I thought that maybe you knew. 

Sir, do you know how to get to ...? 

Do your own research. Respectfully. (because that makes it all right) 

 

I answered what I knew off the top of my head about Germans, nazi symbols, and graves.

im am so very very sorry that wasn’t good enough for you and that I don’t have the time or the research parameters to find what exactly you want.

 

[KSera]

5 minutes ago, pinball said:

I answered what I knew off the top of my head about Germans, nazi symbols, and graves.

im am so very very sorry that wasn’t good enough for you and that I don’t have the time or the research parameters to find what exactly you want.

 

I don’t think anyone expected that of you. It seemed like you knew about this, so she asked you a follow up question. If you didn’t know, all you had to do was say you didn’t know.