Can you tell me everything about 4H?

[mommyoffive]

Can you tell me everything you know about 4H?

We looked at getting into it a few years ago and parents were really negative about it.  Saying it was so hard and overwhelming to do.  Can you tell me everything I would need to know? 

What do you know about showing animals at fair? 

[itsheresomewhere]

It is really dependent on your area.   The one for my county is unorganized, middle school mentality of the people and nasty.  We are part of the next county and it is day and night. My kids love it.  Very organized, the leaders are on top of things and help the kids.  We do animal clubs, anime, photography and whatever else my daughter decides to add this year.  Each club meets either weekly, 2x a month or monthly.  The ones we are in mostly meet monthly.  Our 4H really tries to keep this affordable for all so low cost. One club our dues were 4 for the year. 
 

Fair is awesome.  Our fair is 3 days.  You do show up at early that day of showing for that animal.  We do small animals and reptiles.  I really don’t find it much work or overwhelming nor do my kids.  Now I could say that if I was part of the other one, it would be as there was no direction.

[Amy in NH]

It is different from state to state, county to county, and club to club.  If you don't find what you're looking for in one place, keep looking and you'll find your fit eventually.  There are some great opportunities to learn presentation skills (animal, but also visual and public speaking), and leadership skills (with national awards and scholarships for older kids).  It can be very worthwhile, especially if your kids don't already have a particular passion.

[teachermom2834]

No one can tell you all about 4-H. It is the most confusing thing to be involved with!

That said, my current high schooler has been all in on 4-H since about 7th grade. He are not farm people. He he focused on leadership, citizenship, public speaking, engineering, and other non- farm projects. He is currently wrapping up a term as the state council president. He has traveled the state representing 4-H, addressed our state legislature, served on national committees, and twice traveled to Washington DC (once free on a flight, once for $50 on a bus). I couldn’t even begin to list all the awesome stuff about 4-H for this particular child. So many awesome and affordable opportunities have come his way. He is going to our state flagship in the fall on a full scholarship that he won because of his leadership resume.

My younger dd will probably just attend some camps and conferences and fun field trips without doing a lot of work and without getting into all her brother did. In our county, that is also a valid way of participating.

My oldest was moderately involved in high school (he was a serious athlete so he didn’t have much time). He is graduated from college with a good job and still credits 4-H as one of the most important things he did. For him it was practice networking and being interviewed. 

So 4-H can be all kinds of things and it is different everywhere and that is why it is so confusing I think. My only advice is to jump in and give it a try. The more you get into it the more you will understand it and see what parts you would benefit from. I realize that is an unsatisfactory answer. 4-H is tough to get going in but some states/counties have awesome programs.

[Wheres Toto]

It really is going to have completely different offerings and completely different ways of running things based on where you are located.  Not just state to state but county to county within a state can have a lot of variation.   In general, if you can't find a club that works for you in your county, you are allowed to go out of county.  

I run two STEM/robotics club.  We haven't been able to do in person meetings for the past year but we will be back in September (so far at least).  

[Acadie]

Agreeing that it really varies by club and region, and also by project.

For a few years my dd did a photography project and the Dog Achievement Project, which is much lower key than the other dog projects. She could work at her own pace on topics she was interested in and it did not involve showing our dog, who is a very anxious rescue. She submitted her project binder to the county fair and won best animal project in her age group, which was a huge boost for her.

There was a club a half hour away that was intensely into agility and although that could have been great it was just more than I could swing. I did volunteer as a club leader for a year or two, but when I was asked to coordinate dog agility for the county that was a definite nope, more than I could take on. 

As a 16 yo she still enters photos in the county fair, not through 4-H but open entries. The person who judges photos actually writes a post-it note of feedback for each photo, so that's been great along with validation of winning ribbons in various categories. 

You can visit local clubs to get a sense of how they run things and how intense it is. You could also contact your county extension agent to get more info. Actually going to your county fair this year and chatting with parents or kids who are doing the projects your kids might be interested in would be great too. Tailored to your kids' interests and what your family can manage, 4-H can be a fabulous opportunity.

[Plagefille]

38 minutes ago, teachermom2834 said:

No one can tell you all about 4-H. It is the most confusing thing to be involved with!

This!  We have been doing various 4-H things for 8 years and I still don't get or understand it! In our county they basically let us do whatever we want, and I really need more direction. We really only do it so our kids can put stuff in the fair and earn higher premiums than the regular entries. We have been in clubs organized by friends, the county, and now our neighborhood has a club. But we don't really meet much. We really just do it for the fair and to participate in some of the county activities.

[MercyA]

I live in 4H country and my DD's friends raise animals for 4H. My daughter has helped her friends the week of the fair and we've walked around and seen the exhibits many times.

I have no problem with Lego building, photography, sewing, cake decorating, etc., but it's really not cool to ask children to care for, raise, and bond with an animal and then send their friend to slaughter. 4H asks children to take their natural affection for animals and push it aside and beat it down. 

A picture is worth a thousand words.

I'd look for a Jane Goodall Roots and Shoots program instead.

 

[Photos deleted by moderator because they're not your kids]

 

[Bambam]

It really is dependent upon your area, your agent(s), the other folks involved. 
We tried here and had terrible experiences. Friends in other counties have had wonderful experiences. 

One thing that seems semi-common, at least in our state, is that it's hard to find exact info and direction re projects and how to do things.  Almost like if someone tells you, it gives you an unfair advantage and handicaps their kids. Or maybe you have to bleed green before they will let you in on the secrets? 

Good luck! It seems like is should be a wonderful program when you have good agents and other good volunteers! 

In hind sight, I probably should have raised a ruckus with a truly inappropriate email one agent sent my dd.  The other agents in the office (copied on it) told me that it was fine. After that agent was let go, they told me they were surprised I didn't raise a huge ruckus about that terrible inappropriate email. What??? 180 switch there. That convinced me that they were all not to be trusted at all.  So, I would monitor all my kids communication with any adult in any group.  (This was only one reason we ended up leaving, there were several others) 

[mommyoffive]

1 hour ago, teachermom2834 said:

No one can tell you all about 4-H. It is the most confusing thing to be involved with!

That said, my current high schooler has been all in on 4-H since about 7th grade. He are not farm people. He he focused on leadership, citizenship, public speaking, engineering, and other non- farm projects. He is currently wrapping up a term as the state council president. He has traveled the state representing 4-H, addressed our state legislature, served on national committees, and twice traveled to Washington DC (once free on a flight, once for $50 on a bus). I couldn’t even begin to list all the awesome stuff about 4-H for this particular child. So many awesome and affordable opportunities have come his way. He is going to our state flagship in the fall on a full scholarship that he won because of his leadership resume.

My younger dd will probably just attend some camps and conferences and fun field trips without doing a lot of work and without getting into all her brother did. In our county, that is also a valid way of participating.

My oldest was moderately involved in high school (he was a serious athlete so he didn’t have much time). He is graduated from college with a good job and still credits 4-H as one of the most important things he did. For him it was practice networking and being interviewed. 

So 4-H can be all kinds of things and it is different everywhere and that is why it is so confusing I think. My only advice is to jump in and give it a try. The more you get into it the more you will understand it and see what parts you would benefit from. I realize that is an unsatisfactory answer. 4-H is tough to get going in but some states/counties have awesome programs.

Thanks so much.  We tried a few times to get into it.  The one that was in our town was not well run and every time I would ask the older parents in it they would just respond how horrible it was to do your first year.  So after a few meetings I gave up with it.  

[KSera]

33 minutes ago, MercyA said:

it's really not cool to ask children to care for, raise, and bond with an animal and then send their friend to slaughter. 4H asks children to take their natural affection for animals and push it aside and beat it down. 

A picture is worth a thousand words.

There are a lot of animal projects through 4H that don’t involve raising an animal for slaughter. Seems to me the majority of them, actually. No one is slaughtering their dog, cat, horse, reptile, bunny, guinea pig, etc. Do you know that that was what the tears were about in those pictures you posted? I’ve been to a lot of 4-H fairs, and never saw anything indicating any animals were going right from fair to slaughter. I did see tears on a number of occasions when a kid or their animal didn’t ribbon in their event, though. 
 

I agree 4H can be super confusing and we tried to enter at one point and failed due to that, but later we were successful with a different club. I think it works best if you can find someone running a club for a specific thing, like a cat 4H club, for example. Then you’ve got someone who’s leading the kids through exactly what it is but they are supposed to be doing. I think the open ended ones are a lot more confusing to figure out.

 

eta: I see after looking it up that there is a market day at the end for those whose animals are being sold. Seems like cows and sheep, primarily. I agree that must be super hard for the kids. That was never something I saw at all during the years we were doing it. https://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt/2017/08/30/545603450/for-4-h-kids-saying-goodbye-to-an-animal-can-be-the-hardest-lesson

Edited June 30, 2021 by KSera

[MercyA]

12 minutes ago, KSera said:

There are a lot of animal projects through 4H that don’t involve raising an animal for slaughter. Seems to me the majority of them, actually. No one is slaughtering their dog, cat, horse, reptile, bunny, guinea pig, etc. Do you know that that was what the tears were about in those pictures you posted? I’ve been to a lot of 4-H fairs, and never saw anything indicating any animals were going right from fair to slaughter. I did see tears on a number of occasions when a kid or their animal didn’t ribbon in their event, though. 

My DD's friends sell their rabbits for slaughter, and I don't know where you live, but where I am there are rows upon rows upon rows of cows and pigs and other animals destined to be auctioned off for meat at the end of the fair. That's the last responsibility of the kids here, to show up for auction.

The photo of the boy and the sheep was taken after auction, when the sheep was marked with the number of the truck to which the boy had to lead her. She was going to slaughter. The photo of the teenage girl and the photo of the first boy were both taken at auction as well. 

I believe that it's very much like teaching your children to hunt--it can cause them to eventually lose their natural empathy for other living creatures. It's very natural for children to cry at the thought of their much loved animal not only going away forever, but going away to have their throat slit. They're told that it's just part of life and that they should get used to it. I personally don't think that's a good thing.

[I see you edited your post. Thanks for the addition!]

[Shoeless]

I am relieved to see so many people say that 4-h is confusing; it's not just me! I inquired about 4-h in my community several times and could never figure it out.  I don't know any of the lingo, (what is meant by a "project"? What's a record book and what goes in it?), and I never got a straight answer on what our obligations would be if we joined. It seemed like one of those things that certain families here had been doing for generations, so they all grew up with the lingo, and didn't feel the need to explain to potential newbies/competition. 

Edited July 1, 2021 by MissLemon
tired...

[Pen]

Unless you are already a livestock family I suggest starting with something easier that will give feel for 4H without responsibility for an animal.  Wildlife observation, or gardening, for example. If you do start with animal raising consider something like egg laying hens.    We are in a rural area where lots of kids do 4H. My son chose to raise hens without 4H, but we had 4H manuals gifted to us, and I did some 4H when I was a kid

[itsheresomewhere]

1 hour ago, MercyA said:

My DD's friends sell their rabbits for slaughter, and I don't know where you live, but where I am there are rows upon rows upon rows of cows and pigs and other animals destined to be auctioned off for meat at the end of the fair. That's the last responsibility of the kids here, to show up for auction.

The photo of the boy and the sheep was taken after auction, when the sheep was marked with the number of the truck to which the boy had to lead her. She was going to slaughter. The photo of the teenage girl and the photo of the first boy were both taken at auction as well. 

I believe that it's very much like teaching your children to hunt--it can cause them to eventually lose their natural empathy for other living creatures. It's very natural for children to cry at the thought of their much loved animal not only going away forever, but going away to have their throat slit. They're told that it's just part of life and that they should get used to it. I personally don't think that's a good thing.

[I see you edited your post. Thanks for the addition!]

Just FYI for here- We do not sell our small animals for slaughter. Those animals are very spoiled pets.   And often the large animals are kept for either pets or sold to someone who wants a cow/sheep/goat for their farm.  Some 4H do but a lot don’t  sell for slaughter. 

An example of those who sell-  a kid who wanted to raise a cow who lives in an apartment.  They pay a small portion ( we are talking pennies) of rent to the farm who host the animal.  At the end of the year, some will sell to the farm. 

Edited June 30, 2021 by itsheresomewhere

[mommyoffive]

41 minutes ago, Pen said:

Unless you are already a livestock family I suggest starting with something easier that will give feel for 4H without responsibility for an animal.  Wildlife observation, or gardening, for example. If you do start with animal raising consider something like egg laying hens.    We are in a rural area where lots of kids do 4H. My son chose to raise hens without 4H, but we had 4H manuals gifted to us, and I did some 4H when I was a kid

We already have hens and have for 7 years or so.  

[mommyoffive]

32 minutes ago, itsheresomewhere said:

Just FYI for here- We do not sell our small animals for slaughter. Those animals are very spoiled pets.   And often the large animals are kept for either pets or sold to someone who wants a cow/sheep/goat for their farm.  Some 4H do but a lot don’t  sell for slaughter. 

An example of those who sell-  a kid who wanted to raise a cow who lives in an apartment.  They pay a small portion ( we are talking pennies) of rent to the farm who host the animal.  At the end of the year, some will sell to the farm. 

This is exactly what came up today.  My kids would like to try the bigger animals.  We already have chickens and dogs.  But I found someone who has a farm that lets 4h kids keep their animals there.  

[sweet2ndchance]

We have been trying to get into 4H for a year and a half here. There seems to be a revolving door of leaders here and no one can give me a straight answer about what the clubs here even do other than the obvious equestrian club and the competition shooting club. We tried to get ds into the archery portion of the shooting club but they apparently don't have a teacher for that part right now so they are not currently meeting. We tried to get into one of the general clubs but they have cancelled their meetings the last two months in a row. So now we are trying a different general club in a different part of the county.

All that to say, good luck OP. I hope you have an easier time getting in to 4H than we have so far.

[Pen]

42 minutes ago, mommyoffive said:

We already have hens and have for 7 years or so.  

that could make an easy transition into 4H to start then — kids would add keeping records, going to meetings, and maybe showing the chickens at fair, but the basics of chickens themselves would be familiar. Then maybe next year when 4H participation is familiar add a different animal or activity

[J-rap]

I agree it's super confusing!   Nevertheless, our kids were in it for about 5 years and really enjoyed it.  We lived in a rural area, lots of farms, and 4H was big there.  Generations of farm families have been involved in it there and they already knew how it all went... but for some reason, they couldn't really figure out how to clearly explain it to us newcomers!   We just had jump in and figure it out as things came up.  Our state university extension office managed it in our town, so we could just pop in anytime with our various questions and usually they could give us a little guidance.

I'm sure if you raised animals it would be more time consuming.  My kids entered art projects, photography, sewing projects, recipes, etc.  It was mostly a late spring/summer deal for us.  We went to once/month meetings (parents are encouraged to come as well), a once/year spring talent show between all the clubs in the areas, and maybe one or two community volunteer projects.  In our town, the kids ran the concession food booth at the county fair.  That's also where they got to exhibit their projects (at the county fair), and where they were judged.  Our county fair was quite small and probably half of it had to do with 4H.

The really exciting part was if you placed high enough to enter a project (or animal) at our state fair -- a HUGE, HUGE deal here.  You get to stay overnight in the 100+ year old 4H dormitory right in the fairgrounds in bunks 3 beds high with giant fans (that look 100 years old) blowing (no AC) -- it's a real experience.  

With the projects -- if it's not an animal, you can choose to put in a little or a lot of work.  You can choose to write lengthy reports explaining it, or not.  Sometimes, classes are offered in categories like sewing, mechanics, dog training, etc, but otherwise, you're really on your own (generally with the parent's help) to figure out what you're doing.  There are some guidelines in the manual.  

I will say that it leans heavily on parents helping out with everything.  We didn't know this ahead of time, but that was okay with us.  I also liked that the whole family would usually go together to the monthly meetings.  It was nice -- with several kids -- to have something where the schedule was the same for everyone!

Edited June 30, 2021 by J-rap

[Pen]

1 hour ago, mommyoffive said:

This is exactly what came up today.  My kids would like to try the bigger animals.  We already have chickens and dogs.  But I found someone who has a farm that lets 4h kids keep their animals there.  

How easy to get there to do animal care as needed? Or are they wanting animals that will mainly just graze on their own most of the time?  Who takes care of fencing and fencing repairs? 

[heartlikealion]

In our area, which is where 4-H originates, it's also disorganized Lol. 

We tried Cloverbuds which is for the little kids. After one meeting I threw in the towel. They wanted ds, who was about 5 years old at the time, to build a doll out of corn husks. He lost interested immediately and ran around with another child. Then they offered him a jar to decorate and he did that instead. I ended up sitting there making the dang doll myself among the other ladies. I just felt obligated haha. 

Fast forward. We reached out to 4-H for archery when ds was 11? They were supposed to meet in our county, but then the only certified archery instructor left and so we had to meet in another county. It was a further drive and very inconvenient. I told ds to practice at home in the yard, but he wasn't disciplined enough and I'd catch him holding the bow upside down and have to correct him. The practice was too infrequent and his heart wasn't in it. I was just glad 4-H didn't require a Genesis bow like all the other archery groups here! Those things are $$$. 

I don't know anything about the farm stuff, but see pictures all the time on their facebook page. We never got into that.

[katilac]

3 hours ago, MercyA said:

My DD's friends sell their rabbits for slaughter, and I don't know where you live, but where I am there are rows upon rows upon rows of cows and pigs and other animals destined to be auctioned off for meat at the end of the fair. That's the last responsibility of the kids here, to show up for auction.

The photo of the boy and the sheep was taken after auction, when the sheep was marked with the number of the truck to which the boy had to lead her. She was going to slaughter. The photo of the teenage girl and the photo of the first boy were both taken at auction as well. 

I believe that it's very much like teaching your children to hunt--it can cause them to eventually lose their natural empathy for other living creatures. It's very natural for children to cry at the thought of their much loved animal not only going away forever, but going away to have their throat slit. They're told that it's just part of life and that they should get used to it. I personally don't think that's a good thing.

[I see you edited your post. Thanks for the addition!]

I'm sure it's very hard on some of the kids, but certainly they don't have to choose that project. 

And you are not a vegetarian, correct? Or at least not always, just sometimes, off and on? Animals get slaughtered for you to eat, period. People kill those animals, just as hunters kill animals.  Eating an animal that was slaughtered at a farm is not morally superior to eating an animal that was shot in the woods. Killing an animal at a farm is not morally superior to killing an animal in the woods. I do think it's arguably morally superior to eat animals that were killed by hunters versus eating factory-farmed animals that were killed by workers. 

Do you think that you lack empathy for animals because you eat them? Why do you think hunters automatically lose empathy? If anything, I think eating an animal you hunted or killed yourself is a more honorable choice.  

1 hour ago, sweet2ndchance said:

We have been trying to get into 4H for a year and a half here. There seems to be a revolving door of leaders here 

Heh, you can always fix that! 

[heartlikealion]

9 minutes ago, katilac said:

I'm sure it's very hard on some of the kids, but certainly they don't have to choose that project. 

And you are not a vegetarian, correct? Or at least not always, just sometimes, off and on? Animals get slaughtered for you to eat, period. People kill those animals, just as hunters kill animals.  Eating an animal that was slaughtered at a farm is not morally superior to eating an animal that was shot in the woods. Killing an animal at a farm is not morally superior to killing an animal in the woods. I do think it's arguably morally superior to eat animals that were killed by hunters versus eating factory-farmed animals that were killed by workers. 

Do you think that you lack empathy for animals because you eat them? Why do you think hunters automatically lose empathy? If anything, I think eating an animal you hunted or killed yourself is a more honorable choice.  

Just my impression, I could be off base: I think the personal connection to the animal is what is more disturbing to the child. They may have even named it. It is much harder to see "Wilber" go to slaughter than knowing that pigs die for humans to eat. 

[katilac]

1 minute ago, heartlikealion said:

Just my impression, I could be off base: I think the personal connection to the animal is what is more disturbing to the child. They may have even named it. It is much harder to see "Wilber" go to slaughter than knowing that pigs die for humans to eat. 

Absolutely I can see that, and I 100% think it's legit for a parent to say no, we're not going to go there, pick another project. 

But Mercy said the same thing about hunting, where you do not at all have a personal connection to the animal, so I don't think that was her (entire) point). 

[Shoeless]

5 minutes ago, heartlikealion said:

Just my impression, I could be off base: I think the personal connection to the animal is what is more disturbing to the child. They may have even named it. It is much harder to see "Wilber" go to slaughter than knowing that pigs die for humans to eat. 

This is why I could never, ever slaughter my hens once they get past laying age, even though I eat chicken all the time. 

[Ottakee]

Fair was a ton of fun....camping at the fair for a week with your animal and friends and fun.    My daughter showed her horses.

Selling an animal is hard, harder for some kids than others, but you don't have to do that.  Many farm kids though do 4h and raise their animals for the auction and use the money to fund college, down payment on a house, etc.   Kids can make a significant amount of money through livestock.

[Shoeless]

So is a "project" just something you want to study/get better at? And a project "club" is all the kids that want to also learn about that topic? 

Do the leaders for each "club" teach on the topic area at all? 

[heartlikealion]

9 minutes ago, katilac said:

Absolutely I can see that, and I 100% think it's legit for a parent to say no, we're not going to go there, pick another project. 

But Mercy said the same thing about hunting, where you do not at all have a personal connection to the animal, so I don't think that was her (entire) point). 

I think it's a different type of personal connection. That connection being, "I killed the animal." Now you have the guilt and the (potentially literal) "blood on your hands." THAT is too much for some people. That would be too much for me. If I was stranded yes I might fish or something. But if someone said, "hey you wanna go hunting" I just couldn't do it. I feel AWFUL I hit a bird with my car the other day. It just flew right into the lane and that's not the first time. I accidentally ran over a cat before, too. I didn't know its name and it died in the road. I got out to check. People are all wired and raised differently. Also, some people are empaths or HSP (highly sensitive people). I'm an HSP. I don't like watching certain violence on TV and I know it's fake. 

ETA: I do not have a problem with hunters that eat what they kill. I just couldn't pull the trigger myself. I used to watch Duck Dynasty all the time. I had no problem with their lifestyle but couldn't see myself skinning the animals, etc. 

Edited June 30, 2021 by heartlikealion

[teachermom2834]

The kids we know who do animal projects are already farm kids and the realities of that are part of their lives before 4-H. In our area the kids that do livestock make huge amounts of money. I’m out of my depth discussing these details but my understanding is that locally people with hearts for 4-H pay way over market value for these animals. That and cash prizes for winners are pretty substantial. 
 

For the chick project the kids pay for something like $36 for 12 chicks. At the end of the project they bring their three best chicks to the chick show/auction. 4-H guarantees them at least $12 per chicken but then they are auctioned off and people pay a lot for them just to support the kids. So the kid pays $36, makes all their money back probably plus some, and can keep the other 9 chicks. That is pretty much the way things seem to roll in 4-H here. There is big support from the community. There are scholarships available for almost any activity. My Ds went to a 4-H electrical engineering camp and the local power company paid for it. My niece won $1000 in a 4-H talent show. If you are in an area that is well supported and have agents and volunteer leaders that know what they are doing there is a lot of opportunity without a big financial investment. 

I love 4-H and it has been life altering for my ds. But I still can’t explain it to you. 

[MercyA]

3 hours ago, itsheresomewhere said:

Just FYI for here- We do not sell our small animals for slaughter. Those animals are very spoiled pets.   And often the large animals are kept for either pets or sold to someone who wants a cow/sheep/goat for their farm.  Some 4H do but a lot don’t  sell for slaughter. 

That's great, but doesn't seem to be the norm for our area. There aren't a lot of hobby farms or sanctuaries, and many people are low-income. They want to "get back" what they "put into" the animal. 😞 

[Lecka]

Where my cousins live, if you take animals to show at a regional meet they have to be sold so they don’t spread disease.  
 

One cousin quit eating pork for a while so she would know she wasn’t eating her pig.  
 

I have definitely heard this as a potential drawback, and I was going to mention it if nobody else did.

My understanding is that they did choose, knowing, if they were going to go to that regional meet (or show, I guess), and had the option to go locally only.

But they did want to compete after they had worked so hard.

I have heard very good, positive things.  

I do think it is also sad this way.

I don’t think that cancels out all the positives, but it is a mark on the “con” side, for sure, for a lot of people.  

I have not heard another negative thing about it.

Edit:  My one cousin did not show another animal regionally.  But I have no idea, if you asked her, would she say she wished she had never done it?  Or would she say she is still glad she did it?

For other cousins, they absolutely could be sad and cry, but overall have a positive feeling and not have that be the one thing they swelled on.  It was just one part of it, and then they moved on, and were happy to move on the next year with a new animal.  

Edited June 30, 2021 by Lecka

[sweet2ndchance]

53 minutes ago, katilac said:

 

Heh, you can always fix that! 

And I wouldn't be necessarily opposed to it if we could either attend a general meeting or have someone tell me what is suppose to go on at a general meeting. The only answer I seem to get out of anyone is oh it depends on the leader or oh it depends on the group... It's kinda hard to be a leader of something when you have no idea what it is you are leading. I was never involved in 4h as a kid so I don't have anything to go off of.

[MercyA]

2 hours ago, katilac said:

And you are not a vegetarian, correct? Or at least not always, just sometimes, off and on? Animals get slaughtered for you to eat, period. People kill those animals, just as hunters kill animals.  Eating an animal that was slaughtered at a farm is not morally superior to eating an animal that was shot in the woods. Killing an animal at a farm is not morally superior to killing an animal in the woods. I do think it's arguably morally superior to eat animals that were killed by hunters versus eating factory-farmed animals that were killed by workers. 

Do you think that you lack empathy for animals because you eat them? Why do you think hunters automatically lose empathy? If anything, I think eating an animal you hunted or killed yourself is a more honorable choice.  

I eat largely but not entirely a vegetarian diet. No excuses, I can do better, but I am trying. Of course I know that if I choose to eat animal flesh, that animal was slaughtered for me to eat. And similarly, when I eat eggs, male chicks were sent into the grinder, and when I eat dairy, baby cows were separated from their momma. That is why I am trying and why my refrigerator is full of things like almond milk creamer and coconut milk ice cream and vegan burritos and veggie burgers and why most of the time when my family gets drive-through meals, I abstain because there is nothing vegan to be had.

I don't think I lose my right to express concern about the suffering of other beings because I eat chicken at my elderly mother-in-law's house so I don't hurt her feelings or eat beef once in a month because I'm anemic. I don't like it, I feel badly about it. Maybe that makes me a hypocrite and I am sorry for that. Regardless, I don't think asking children to raise living beings and then sell them to be killed is wise or kind. 

Of course eating a slaughtered factory farm raised animal isn't superior to eating a hunted animal. Never said it was. You can make a very good argument that animals who live in the wild have a much better life than those who are raised on farms. But I have very close friends who hunt and they do it because they enjoy the kill, period. It's disgusting to shoot an animal with an arrow and track it through the woods while it bleeds to death and runs and stumbles in fear for an hour or two. That shows an extreme lack of empathy, IMO. 

And I have absolutely seen the lack of empathy that results when children are raised to see animals merely as things to eat or things to entertain them. The natural revulsion they have to killing has to be trained out of them. They have to "toughen up." I don't think it's a good thing.

ETA: You know what, katilac, if not eating a consistently vegetarian diet makes people not take my concerns seriously, then I need to change. Yesterday I prayed that God would give me the strength to be vegetarian without exception. I'm willing to be transparent and accountable here. I'll put vegetarian in my siggie and remove it if I don't stick to it. 

Edited July 1, 2021 by MercyA

[Shoeless]

@MercyA Is it possible for you to get eggs from small, local farms?  The entire reason why I got chickens is because I couldn't deal with how hens are treated in large, commercial farms.  I know that my girls are treated well, with lots of fresh air and sunshine.  And snacks. They love snacks! 😄 🐔

[MercyA]

52 minutes ago, MissLemon said:

@MercyA Is it possible for you to get eggs from small, local farms?  The entire reason why I got chickens is because I couldn't deal with how hens are treated in large, commercial farms.  I know that my girls are treated well, with lots of fresh air and sunshine.  And snacks. They love snacks! 😄 🐔

I love it!!! I wish I could have chickens. 🙂 

I know of at least one local farm which has a sign out for fresh eggs. I'll have to look into it. Unfortunately my family will only eat eggs from the store.

[Selkie]

7 hours ago, MercyA said:

I live in 4H country and my DD's friends raise animals for 4H. My daughter has helped her friends the week of the fair and we've walked around and seen the exhibits many times.

I have no problem with Lego building, photography, sewing, cake decorating, etc., but it's really not cool to ask children to care for, raise, and bond with an animal and then send their friend to slaughter. 4H asks children to take their natural affection for animals and push it aside and beat it down. 

A picture is worth a thousand words.

I'd look for a Jane Goodall Roots and Shoots program instead.

 

Mercy, these photos are heartbreaking. I grew up on a farm and went through this pain regularly when my parents would butcher our animals or sell them for slaughter. This is one of the reasons I am a vegan.

I follow and support several farm sanctuaries and they say they are often contacted by distraught 4-H kids who can't bear to let their animals be butchered. Those are the kids who are brave enough and strong enough to go against the tide. 

[mommyoffive]

I am sad to hear other people have had confusing and frustrating experiences trying to join 4H, although it makes me feel better that it wasn't just me.

[katilac]

40 minutes ago, MissLemon said:

So is a "project" just something you want to study/get better at? And a project "club" is all the kids that want to also learn about that topic? 

Do the leaders for each "club" teach on the topic area at all? 

"something you want to study/get better at" >>>> this would be the program area

"project" >>>> an actual specific project 

I'm sure it's possible for leaders to teach or bring in a teacher, but every kid gets to choose their program area and project - so there's often a ton of different program areas being studied, especially in non-rural 4-H. When the kid picks a program area, there are workbooks they use to learn and complete projects. A lot of the learning is independent ime but of course every club can vary, 

40 minutes ago, heartlikealion said:

 ETA: I do not have a problem with hunters that eat what they kill. I just couldn't pull the trigger myself. 

I am not a hunter myself, I just think it's way harsh to judge the people who provide the meat you are willing to eat (general you).

1 minute ago, sweet2ndchance said:

And I wouldn't be necessarily opposed to it if we could either attend a general meeting or have someone tell me what is suppose to go on at a general meeting. The only answer I seem to get out of anyone is oh it depends on the leader or oh it depends on the group... It's kinda hard to be a leader of something when you have no idea what it is you are leading. I was never involved in 4h as a kid so I don't have anything to go off of.

On the plus side, that really does mean you can structure it the way you prefer. Look up some examples, look at other groups, and do it the way that suits you best. I like doing things my own way, so that appeals, lol. A couple of examples: 

https://catalog.extension.oregonstate.edu/sites/catalog/files/project/pdf/4-h600-02.pdf#:~:text=A typical 4-H meeting,meeting agenda on page 5.

https://s3.wp.wsu.edu/uploads/sites/2053/2012/11/5-Parts-of-a-4-H-Club-Meeting.pdf 

4 hours ago, MercyA said:

I eat largely but not entirely a vegetarian diet. No excuses, I can do better, but I am trying. Of course I know that if I choose to eat animal flesh, that animal was slaughtered for me to eat. And similarly, when I eat eggs, male chicks were sent into the grinder, and when I eat dairy, baby cows were separated from their momma. That is why I am trying and why my refrigerator is full of things like almond milk creamer and coconut milk ice cream and vegan burritos and veggie burgers and why most of the time when my family gets drive-through meals, I abstain because there is nothing vegan to be had.

I don't think I lose my right to express concern about the suffering of other beings because I eat chicken at my elderly mother-in-law's house so I don't hurt her feelings or eat beef once in a month because I'm anemic. I don't like it, I feel badly about it. Maybe that makes me a hypocrite and I am sorry for that. Regardless, I don't think asking children to raise living beings and then sell them to be killed is wise or kind. 

Of course eating a slaughtered factory farm raised animal isn't superior to eating a hunted animal. Never said it was. You can make a very good argument that animals who live in the wild have a much better life than those who are raised on farms. But I have very close friends who hunt and they do it because they enjoy the kill, period. It's disgusting to shoot an animal with an arrow and track it through the woods while it bleeds to death and runs and stumbles in fear for an hour or two. That shows an extreme lack of empathy, IMO. 

And I have absolutely seen the lack of empathy that results when children are raised to see animals merely as things to eat or things to entertain them. The natural revulsion they have to killing has to be trained out of them. They have to "toughen up." I don't think it's a good thing.

ETA: You know what, katilac, if not eating a consistently vegetarian diet makes people not take my concerns seriously, then I need to change. Yesterday I prayed that God would give me the strength to be vegetarian without exception. I'm willing to be transparent and accountable here. I'll put vegetarian in my siggie and remove it if I don't stick to it. 

And almond milk requires ridiculous amounts of water so it's bad for animals and the environment, and coconuts are often harvested by enslaved monkeys who are chained and treated cruelly, and cashew milk is better for the environment but the human workers are treated harshly and often confined to labor camps, and clearing the land for the house you live in killed thousands of animals. 

My point is that you want it to be simple, and it's not. You want to feel okay about eating 'just some' meat, and you want to feel good about not killing it yourself, but all eating it without killing it does is distance you from the reality. A natural revulsion to personally killing animals means nothing to the animal; if it's dead and being consumed by you, it cares not who killed it. Believe me, I also like to be distanced from the reality, I'm not out there skinning rabbits, but that doesn't make me any better than the person who skinned the rabbit or shot the deer or strangled the chicken. 

To be clear, the fact that you eat meat does not mean I don't take your animal welfare concerns seriously. The conditions of farmed animals will only improve significantly when people who eat meat do their best to vote with their dollars and make as best choices as they can. If someone buys meat only from non-factory farms (acceptable amounts of space and freedom, humane kill methods), that means as much to me personally as being vegetarian. Vegetarians often don't like to face the fact that agriculture kills many, many animals by definition, but not thinking about it doesn't change the fact. Why is it horrible to shoot a rodent (say a squirrel) and eat it, but A-OK to kill numerous rodents to plow a field? Which also reduces habitats for various other animals. 

What I do not take seriously is someone chomping and slurping their way through a hamburger or chicken quesadilla, while talking about how ranchers and hunters lack empathy for animals. What I do not take seriously is someone feeling good about themselves because they fill their grocery cart with almond milk, cashew milk, coconut ice cream, and all kinds of vegan products made with palm oil. 

It's not simple. I don't expect anyone to have all the answers or do all the right things, basically bc it's impossible, but I do expect people to assume that most others have good intentions also, and are doing the best they can with the knowledge they have. So, to me, no, simply being vegetarian does not allow one to claim they have empathy while ranchers/hunters do not. 

[katilac]

For those who do want some vegetarian and vegan choices at fast food places, this is a surprisingly long list to check out: 

https://www.buzzfeed.com/whitneyjefferson/a-guide-to-vegan-options-at-fast-food-chains

[MercyA]

On 7/1/2021 at 12:28 AM, katilac said:

And almond milk requires ridiculous amounts of water so it's bad for animals and the environment, and coconuts are often harvested by enslaved monkeys who are chained and treated cruelly, and cashew milk is better for the environment but the human workers are treated harshly and often confined to labor camps, and clearing the land for the house you live in killed thousands of animals. 

My point is that you want it to be simple, and it's not. You want to feel okay about eating 'just some' meat, and you want to feel good about not killing it yourself, but all eating it without killing it does is distance you from the reality. A natural revulsion to personally killing animals means nothing to the animal; if it's dead and being consumed by you, it cares not who killed it. Believe me, I also like to be distanced from the reality, I'm not out there skinning rabbits, but that doesn't make me any better than the person who skinned the rabbit or shot the deer or strangled the chicken. 

To be clear, the fact that you eat meat does not mean I don't take your animal welfare concerns seriously. The conditions of farmed animals will only improve significantly when people who eat meat do their best to vote with their dollars and make as best choices as they can. If someone buys meat only from non-factory farms (acceptable amounts of space and freedom, humane kill methods), that means as much to me personally as being vegetarian. Vegetarians often don't like to face the fact that agriculture kills many, many animals by definition, but not thinking about it doesn't change the fact. Why is it horrible to shoot a rodent (say a squirrel) and eat it, but A-OK to kill numerous rodents to plow a field? Which also reduces habitats for various other animals. 

What I do not take seriously is someone chomping and slurping their way through a hamburger or chicken quesadilla, while talking about how ranchers and hunters lack empathy for animals. What I do not take seriously is someone feeling good about themselves because they fill their grocery cart with almond milk, cashew milk, coconut ice cream, and all kinds of vegan products made with palm oil. 

It's not simple. I don't expect anyone to have all the answers or do all the right things, basically bc it's impossible, but I do expect people to assume that most others have good intentions also, and are doing the best they can with the knowledge they have. So, to me, no, simply being vegetarian does not allow one to claim they have empathy while ranchers/hunters do not. 

Lots of assumptions and judgment here. 🙂 

First, you seem to assume that I haven't looked into and considered the impact of agriculture on animals and on the environment. I have, and vegetarianism and veganism win every time in terms of lives spared. You're right that no diet is perfect. Yes, some rodents are killed when fields are harvested. We're not "afraid to face that fact." A vegetarian still kills fewer animals than a meat eater. Beef farming in particular is far more harmful to the environment than agriculture. (And BTW, monkeys are not "often" used to harvest coconuts. They are only used in a small and specific geographical region. And due to the outcry, the number is decreasing, thankfully.)

Another judgment from you: "[You] want things simple." You don't know me or my motivations. What I want is to not cause active, certain harm to other living creatures. Every time I eat an animal, I cause active, certain harm. 100% of the time. Eating a vegetarian diet doesn't cause zero harm, but it causes less, and that's important to me.

You keep talking about me eating meat. I told you, I'm not doing that now. The day meat crosses my mouth again I'll remove the veg label from my signature. [ETA: Unless it is meat that my family won't eat for whatever reason and it would literally go in the trash otherwise.] You won't have to wonder. I have been vulnerable on this forum about my difficulty with this issue--about my inconsistency and my desire to do better. Obviously it's leading to judgment, so I'm fixing it. I don't want to be a hypocrite.

The point is *not* me feeling good about myself. The point is animals not dying so that I can enjoy their taste in my mouth or not offend others or whatever.

I do heartily agree with you on this: "All eating it without killing it does is distance you from the reality. A natural revulsion to personally killing animals means nothing to the animal; if it's dead and being consumed by you, it cares not who killed it." I have never claimed or thought otherwise.

I personally know many livestock farmers and hunters. They are in my church and my co-op and my circle of friends. Every single one lacks empathy for animals and has shown that plainly with comments and actions. Are there ethical hunter and farmers out there? Sure, but in my experience, they are a minuscule percentage of the whole. 

I have no doubt that many people here on this forum have thought through these issues and are doing the best they can. That is not true of most people, at least not where I live.

I appreciate your comments.

Edited September 20, 2021 by MercyA

[Rosie_0801]

3 minutes ago, MercyA said:

Beef farming in particular is far more harmful to the environment than agriculture. 

And yet it is impossible to practice regenerative agriculture without animals.

 

Won't someone think of the soil's microbiome? !!

[heartlikealion]

I remember a comedian commenting on vegetarian diets saying what about all the poor people working in the fields to get the veggies, fruit? 

Seems there is no winning. Unless you grow all your own food. 

I do eat fruit & veggies and I do pause when I reach for them (heard to boycott this one brand because of unfair wages) but I’m not sure the other brands are better for workers. 

[sweet2ndchance]

8 hours ago, katilac said:

On the plus side, that really does mean you can structure it the way you prefer. Look up some examples, look at other groups, and do it the way that suits you best. I like doing things my own way, so that appeals, lol. A couple of examples: 

https://catalog.extension.oregonstate.edu/sites/catalog/files/project/pdf/4-h600-02.pdf#:~:text=A typical 4-H meeting,meeting agenda on page 5.

https://s3.wp.wsu.edu/uploads/sites/2053/2012/11/5-Parts-of-a-4-H-Club-Meeting.pdf 

I have tried to look up some examples. I really couldn't find anything that gave a clear idea of what happens at a meeting and what those meetings are suppose to culminate into. Those are the most detailed information packets I've seen for 4h. Thank you.

[Amy in NH]

20 hours ago, KSera said:

There are a lot of animal projects through 4H that don’t involve raising an animal for slaughter. Seems to me the majority of them, actually. No one is slaughtering their dog, cat, horse, reptile, bunny, guinea pig, etc. Do you know that that was what the tears were about in those pictures you posted? I’ve been to a lot of 4-H fairs, and never saw anything indicating any animals were going right from fair to slaughter. I did see tears on a number of occasions when a kid or their animal didn’t ribbon in their event, though.

We raised fiber sheep and egg laying hens.  We still sent ram lambs off to the processor, but the kids didn't raise & bond with them.  As a meat-eating family, I felt like it was important for the kids to understand where meat comes from, and I also felt like we knew our animals were treated well before they went into the freezer - whereas we don't know how the animals we eat from the grocery store were treated on factory farms.

Edited July 1, 2021 by Amy in NH

[Selkie]

20 hours ago, KSera said:

There are a lot of animal projects through 4H that don’t involve raising an animal for slaughter. Seems to me the majority of them, actually. No one is slaughtering their dog, cat, horse, reptile, bunny, guinea pig, etc. Do you know that that was what the tears were about in those pictures you posted? I’ve been to a lot of 4-H fairs, and never saw anything indicating any animals were going right from fair to slaughter. I did see tears on a number of occasions when a kid or their animal didn’t ribbon in their event, though. 
 

I agree 4H can be super confusing and we tried to enter at one point and failed due to that, but later we were successful with a different club. I think it works best if you can find someone running a club for a specific thing, like a cat 4H club, for example. Then you’ve got someone who’s leading the kids through exactly what it is but they are supposed to be doing. I think the open ended ones are a lot more confusing to figure out.

 

eta: I see after looking it up that there is a market day at the end for those whose animals are being sold. Seems like cows and sheep, primarily. I agree that must be super hard for the kids. That was never something I saw at all during the years we were doing it. https://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt/2017/08/30/545603450/for-4-h-kids-saying-goodbye-to-an-animal-can-be-the-hardest-lesson

That’s how it works here - the animals are auctioned off for slaughter at the fair. Beforehand, the kids are encouraged to send letters to people and businesses and ask them to bid on their animal. Quite disturbing, imo.

[katilac]

2 hours ago, MercyA said:

Lots of assumptions and judgment here.    

Funny, that was my exact thought in response to your initial post as well. 

I pulled quotes below to make it easier to respond. 

First, you seem to assume that I haven't looked into and considered the impact of agriculture on animals and on the environment. I have, and vegetarianism and veganism win every time in terms of lives spared. You're right that no diet is perfect. Yes, some rodents are killed when fields are harvested. We're not "afraid to face that fact." A vegetarian still kills fewer animals than a meat eater. Beef farming in particular is far more harmful to the environment than agriculture. (And BTW, monkeys are not "often" used to harvest coconuts. They are only used in a small and specific geographical region. And due to the outcry, the number is decreasing, thankfully.)

It is your considered opinion that not eating meat wins every time in terms of lives spared. Other people also have carefully considered opinions that lead to a different conclusion. Reasonable people can disagree. It is impossible to separate ongoing environmental destruction from the equations of "lives spared". Significant reduction of the rain forest has incredible implications for animals on the species, as well as individual, level, and agriculture is the #1 reason for total clearance. I do think you have considered the impact of agriculture, I just don't agree with every conclusion you reach based on your consideration. Using monkeys to harvest coconuts is indeed common and goes back hundreds of years, but usually in a much less negative way (I don't have an issue with working animals). The outcry against the abusive owners is gaining attention and hopefully reducing that, but I haven't seen any super solid facts. 

What I want is to not cause active, certain harm to other living creatures. Every time I eat an animal, I cause active, certain harm. 100% of the time. Eating a vegetarian diet doesn't cause zero harm, but it causes less, and that's important to me.

You keep talking about me eating meat. I told you, I'm not doing that now. The day meat crosses my mouth again I'll remove the veg label from my signature. You won't have to wonder. I have been vulnerable on this forum about my difficulty with this issue--about my inconsistency and my desire to do better. Obviously it's leading to judgment, so I'm fixing it. I don't want to be a hypocrite.

Eating meat was only one of the things I talked about, and it was in the context of it not being cool to eat meat on one side of your mouth while the other side of your mouth is stating that hunters, farmers, and ranchers lack empathy. My judgement is more about the fact of thinking I am doing it the right way, and people who do it another way are wrong and lack empathy. Far from being overly-focused on eating meat or not, I clearly stated that I absolutely respect the decision of people who eat meat while trying to obtain it in sustainable and cruelty-free ways. Again, I eat meat, lol, I have no issue with it. 

I do heartily agree with you on this: "All eating it without killing it does is distance you from the reality. A natural revulsion to personally killing animals means nothing to the animal; if it's dead and being consumed by you, it cares not who killed it." I have never claimed or thought otherwise.

To me, claiming that you have empathy for animals while hunters and farmers do not is indeed claiming otherwise. 

I personally know many livestock farmers and hunters. They are in my church and my co-op and my circle of friends. Every single one lacks empathy for animals and has shown that plainly with comments and actions. Are there ethical hunter and farmers out there? Sure, but in my experience, they are a minuscule percentage of the whole. 

Wow, that's a sad group of friends! What's in the water up there?? I too personally know many farmers and hunters, particularly hunters, and they absolutely do not lack empathy for animals as a group. They lack squeamishness (they can kill and dress an animal while I and many others can not), but I find they have the same varying levels of empathy for animals as people who do not hunt or farm. And, of course, if I were lost in the wild, I'd lose that squeamishness right fast, lol. It is a luxury.  

I have no doubt that many people here on this forum have thought through these issues and are doing the best they can. That is not true of most people, at least not where I live.

Again, I find that really sad, and I mean that sincerely. I don't think I could be true friends with someone if I felt they utterly lacked empathy for animals. 

I appreciate your comments.

Likewise. We often disagree hard but usually manage to keep talking. 

 

 

Edited July 1, 2021 by katilac

[Random]

16 hours ago, teachermom2834 said:

The kids we know who do animal projects are already farm kids and the realities of that are part of their lives before 4-H. In our area the kids that do livestock make huge amounts of money. I’m out of my depth discussing these details but my understanding is that locally people with hearts for 4-H pay way over market value for these animals. That and cash prizes for winners are pretty substantial. 
....

I love 4-H and it has been life altering for my ds. But I still can’t explain it to you. 

These two things are the norm in my area.  The 'winner' for steer at the county fair in 2019 sold their steer for $25000.  I put winner in quotes because I have no idea how the rankings/awards work.  There are a zillion levels to win, and none of them make sense to me.  They are all a 'champion' of some sort.

We tried 4H for a few years and had a bad experience.  We were the only new family our first year and were consistently left off email lists and were never explained anything.  We didn't know when meetings were or what was expected of us.  We were also the only nonagriculture/nonlivestock family and were sincerely seen as 'less than' in the group.  We were unable to fulfill requirements because we didn't even know about them and then chastised for not doing so.  It was very frustrating for me.

None of the vocabulary for 4H is intuitive, IMO.  Group members were telling us how Demo Day was the best thing ever and we should participate, especially the grab bag category.  I tried so hard to understand what Demo Day even was!  FINALLY, after asking a ton of questions, I found out it is public speaking.  The grab bag category is impromptu speaking.  Why not just call it that?  Sheesh!

Since so many people have apparently had the same experience, why isn't it improving?  I had the idea of running a newcomer's class in our local 4H group.  People were like, Nah, we're good.

[itsheresomewhere]

3 minutes ago, Random said:

These two things are the norm in my area.  The 'winner' for steer at the county fair in 2019 sold their steer for $25000.  I put winner in quotes because I have no idea how the rankings/awards work.  There are a zillion levels to win, and none of them make sense to me.  They are all a 'champion' of some sort.

We tried 4H for a few years and had a bad experience.  We were the only new family our first year and were consistently left off email lists and were never explained anything.  We didn't know when meetings were or what was expected of us.  We were also the only nonagriculture/nonlivestock family and were sincerely seen as 'less than' in the group.  We were unable to fulfill requirements because we didn't even know about them and then chastised for not doing so.  It was very frustrating for me.

None of the vocabulary for 4H is intuitive, IMO.  Group members were telling us how Demo Day was the best thing ever and we should participate, especially the grab bag category.  I tried so hard to understand what Demo Day even was!  FINALLY, after asking a ton of questions, I found out it is public speaking.  The grab bag category is impromptu speaking.  Why not just call it that?  Sheesh!

Since so many people have apparently had the same experience, why isn't it improving?  I had the idea of running a newcomer's class in our local 4H group.  People were like, Nah, we're good.

I know with our county, most of these issues could be fixed if the ones who have been in charge of 4H for years( think over 20 years) were gone.  All suggestions are shrugged off.  
The county we participate in is night and day compared to them.  Hilariously, I found out most of those in charge in this one got fed up in dealing with the other county.   That is probably why it is run so well. 

[teachermom2834]

1 minute ago, Random said:

 

None of the vocabulary for 4H is intuitive, IMO.  Group members were telling us how Demo Day was the best thing ever and we should participate, especially the grab bag category.  I tried so hard to understand what Demo Day even was!  FINALLY, after asking a ton of questions, I found out it is public speaking.  The grab bag category is impromptu speaking.  Why not just call it that?  Sheesh!

 

This. A million times this. It isn't intuitive at all. Most of the people involved in 4-H have been for generations in their families so the language and culture has been orally passed down. It is hard to find things in writing and when you do, they don't make sense. It is a testament to my ds that he was able to excel and work his way up to state president without having a 4-H family background. Most of the state officers come from generations of state officers. It is the only way (obviously not because my ds infiltrated it) to know what you need to do to get there. Most of the agents we have met were in 4-H as children, went to college with the express goal of becoming a 4-H agent, and have made their life long career in 4-H. So asking them to explain it to a newcomer is rough. 

Programs and camps and conferences are advertised with very little explanation as to what they are. You have to have a friend or contact in it that you can ask "what is this and is it appropriate for my kid?" without them getting annoyed. 

My kids have been involved in all kinds of kid activities (sports, dance, academic competitions, etc). 4-H is like all the rest in that you will meet some ultra competitive parents. These parents don't want to share info because they want their kid to win stuff/get elected, etc. So the potential to have drama in 4-H is there just like all the other kid activities. 

It's been fantastic for our family. So I know the potential is there. I guess you really need to fall in a group with the right leaders and parents.