How do you define gender?

[Katy]

I just want to throw in that if someone wants to fix certain thought patterns (anxiety, depression, etc), cognitive behavioral therapy is the one you’re looking for.

If someone is in a stressful life circumstance or want to work through past trauma and they want to talk it out privately for months or years to come, that’s what talk therapy is for.  

Both are useful, but the aims are very different. 

Behavioral therapy for very young children tends to be more oriented to teaching different parenting strategies than to correcting the thoughts of the children themselves. 

[KSera]

35 minutes ago, Katy said:

 

I just want to throw in that if someone wants to fix certain thought patterns (anxiety, depression, etc), cognitive behavioral therapy is the one you’re looking for.

I’ve noticed that a lot of therapists advertise themselves as being CBT therapists, but then do very little of that during their sessions. Most seem to at least throw some in here or there, but we’ve spent a lot of time with CBT therapists wondering when they were finally going to get to the CBT. So far, the DBT therapists have been the only ones that have gotten down to business tackling specific thought patterns and behaviors right away. (I know that sounds like a lot of therapists, and it is. My older two have each seen several over the past 5 years.)

 

eta: just realizing that might sound like I’m negative on CBT. I’m not at all, I think the evidence is pretty clear it’s very helpful, which is why we have specifically looked for it when we’ve been looking for a therapist. My beef is with people advertising it but then not actually providing it. 

Edited June 23, 2021 by KSera

[LucyStoner]

On 6/22/2021 at 11:39 AM, Chrysalis Academy said:

I am really appreciating this discussion. I have a question, though. I see a lot of gender critical feminists (which is how I would have classified myself a few years ago, fwiw) express a concern about girls being led/pressured into identifying as nb or trans. I'm wondering if, in anyone's experience, this is really a thing. It's certainly not in ours - I would say that my nb kid led/dragged us into an understanding of their identity, rather than the other way around. The same is true of the 3 other (FTM) trans kids I know well. Their families/doctors are supportive, but certainly no one suggested or led them into "choosing" this identity. It came from inside of them.

I mean, other than a subsection of instagram/tumblr/tiktok, being nb or trans is not actually an easy, trendy, or glamorous thing, IRL, I don't think. From what I've seen it's usually a gut-wrenching, painful, long, involved process, which includes a ton of soul-searching & self-education, long conversations with family/friends/doctors, and a realization that you may face an incredible amount of discrimination and even violence once you are out/presenting in a manner that is comfortable for you. You risk losing friends, extended family members, having difficulty getting jobs, being called names when you're out in public. It's an incredibly difficult process that takes courage and fortitude. Totally worth it for the kids I know, but not something anyone would take on just to follow a trend. 

Thoughts? Different experiences? I have found myself worrying about this in the abstract, too, but IRL it doesn't seem to be a real thing, at least among the families of trans kids that I know personally.

Having seen my brother transition 20 years ago, I assumed that it was always a long process that filtered out for those whose dysphoria was temporary or minor.  I now have three nieces identifying as either FTM or non-binary (1 FTM, 1 non-binary with they/them or he/his pronouns and a third whose identity very much changes based on context).  Of these three, none has medicalized their transition yet but the non-binary one is considering a double mastectomy and a small dose of testosterone.  The youngest of these girls is, I am fairly certain, a very young lesbian.  The other two were and ARE very gender conforming girls. 

Three in one family is eyebrow raising but *perhaps* explained by family socialization or wanting to identify with their trans parent (two of them are my brother’s kids) or maybe heck, even some genetic factor.  What absolutely got me challenging my opinion about this issue though is summarized along these lines:

1. the vast majority of each of their distinct friend groups are also identifying as trans.  These are kids who go to different schools across the county I live in.  

2. the stereotyping and what seems to be sexist thinking I keep hearing from their mouths.  My niece actually told me she knows she was “more than just a girl” because she likes to wear pants.  Say what?!

3. The gender expression of 2 of my 3 nieces tends to be pretty conventionally feminine and none of the three exhibit any signs of gender dysphoria or distress.  My niece wanted me to take her bra shopping after she stopped binding (and she picked out lacy, feminine options) and when we went on vacation she wanted bikinis.  All three of these girls regularly cajole me (their tomboy aunt) to take them to get manicures.  When they have needed clothing for special events, they want me to take them dress shopping.  I don’t associate these choices with any level of gender dysphoria  as I have witnessed it TBH.  Is gender identity really *nothing but a pronoun* and does it supercede sex?  I don’t think so.  

Even the kids in question acknowledge that, yeah, it seems to be inauthentic for at least some of the kids (but they, they themselves are actually trans).  One niece doesn’t give a flying fig about being misgendered…except if the parent she has a high conflict relationship with or her sibling does it. 

I support trans people in real and non-theoretical ways but I feel I would have to abandon all reason to accept that almost all of the kids in this age bracket in my family, as well as most of their friends, are trans.  

I also worry that if trans becomes everything, it becomes nothing and it will be harder on people who actually experience severe dysphoria to get the support and healthcare they need.  

Now, I think kids are gonna be kids and this will eventually fade away for many of the kids I know.  My inclination was to affirm but on deeper exploration, I think that would be premature.  I’m taking a wait and see and let kids be kids approach.   

[SKL]

15 minutes ago, LucyStoner said:

[Editing quote for privacy ....]

[Discussion of various individuals identifying as "trans"]

I support trans people in real and non-theoretical ways but I feel I would have to abandon all reason to accept that [all of these kids], as well as most of their friends, are trans.  

I also worry that if trans becomes everything, it becomes nothing and it will be harder on people who actually experience severe dysphoria to get the support and healthcare they need.  

Now, I think kids are gonna be kids and this will eventually fade away for many of the kids I know.  My inclination was to affirm but on deeper exploration, I think that would be premature.  I’m taking a wait and see and let kids be kids approach.   

When I make brief observations like this to my kids (who have not stated they are trans, but have lots of friends who have), they label me as "transphobic."

So they are learning not to listen to or trust those of us who don't encourage this trend.  Not sure what to say about that.

Edited June 23, 2021 by SKL

[KSera]

On 6/23/2021 at 12:04 PM, LucyStoner said:

Having seen my brother transition 20 years ago, I assumed that it was always a long process that filtered out for those whose dysphoria was temporary or minor.  I now have three nieces identifying as either FTM or non-binary (1 FTM, 1 non-binary with they/them or he/his pronouns and a third whose identity very much changes based on context).  Of these three, none has medicalized their transition yet but the non-binary one is considering a double mastectomy and a small dose of testosterone.  The youngest of these girls is, I am fairly certain, a very young lesbian.  The other two were and ARE very gender conforming girls. 

Three in one family is eyebrow raising but *perhaps* explained by family socialization or wanting to identify with their trans parent (two of them are my brother’s kids) or maybe heck, even some genetic factor.  What absolutely got me challenging my opinion about this issue though is summarized along these lines:

1. the vast majority of each of their distinct friend groups are also identifying as trans.  These are kids who go to different schools across the county I live in.  

2. the stereotyping and what seems to be sexist thinking I keep hearing from their mouths.  My niece actually told me she knows she was “more than just a girl” because she likes to wear pants.  Say what?!

3. The gender expression of 2 of my 3 nieces tends to be pretty conventionally feminine and none of the three exhibit any signs of gender dysphoria or distress.  My niece wanted me to take her bra shopping after she stopped binding (and she picked out lacy, feminine options) and when we went on vacation she wanted bikinis.  All three of these girls regularly cajole me (their tomboy aunt) to take them to get manicures.  When they have needed clothing for special events, they want me to take them dress shopping.  I don’t associate these choices with any level of gender dysphoria  as I have witnessed it TBH.  Is gender identity really *nothing but a pronoun* and does it supercede sex?  I don’t think so.  

Even the kids in question acknowledge that, yeah, it seems to be inauthentic for at least some of the kids (but they, they themselves are actually trans).  One niece doesn’t give a flying fig about being misgendered…except if the parent she has a high conflict relationship with or her sibling does it. 

I support trans people in real and non-theoretical ways but I feel I would have to abandon all reason to accept that almost all of the kids in this age bracket in my family, as well as most of their friends, are trans.  

I also worry that if trans becomes everything, it becomes nothing and it will be harder on people who actually experience severe dysphoria to get the support and healthcare they need.  

Now, I think kids are gonna be kids and this will eventually fade away for many of the kids I know.  My inclination was to affirm but on deeper exploration, I think that would be premature.  I’m taking a wait and see and let kids be kids approach.   

It’s is absolutely UNCANNY the degree to which I could have written this entire thing, other than the brother part (I could make some substitutions there involving my own trans kid). But every one of your points matches part of my experience. [deleted personal details] I really think a lot of the girls presenting this way really do just want to opt out of what “woman” has come to mean. Woman has a very negative connotation to my nb kid. They want nothing to do with it. 
 

on the other hand, I do worry that this entire conversation will be misused by the anti-trans folks who have an entirely different agenda. My concerns are focused on the medicalization of the kids caught up in this current big spike.

Edited June 24, 2021 by KSera
removing personal details

[SanDiegoMom]

An important survey that just came out a couple of months ago addressed recent detransitioners.   It was a survey of 237 males and females, around half had started socially transitioning before 18 and 25 percent medically transitioning. The goal was to assess the medical care surrounding their transition and detransition health care.  Important to note was the reasons given for detransitioning -- a big component of activists' platform is that people detransition because of transphobia in those around them. According to the survey 70 percent detransitioned when they realized their dysphoria was related to other issues, 62 percent cited health concerns, and on down until only 13 percent said it was lack of support and 10 percent due to discrimination.  45 percent found alternatives to deal with their dysphoria, 34 percent found that it had resolved over time, 30 percent had their co-morbid health issues resolve. 

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/00918369.2021.1919479

[lewelma]

My son was asked on his housing form 3 years ago what his gender was (with multiple categories) and what his sexual orientation was (with multiple categories). He was then asked if he was willing to room with an LGBT+ student. This was a LOT to take in for a child who had a romantic relationship with anyone and had never been around any trans/NB kids. His focus his whole life was on maths and music, he hadn't been thinking about gender, sex, orientation. He didn't want to be seen as a bigot, but he had no worldly experience to make a decision about rooming with a gay guy or a trans guy. It was like, time to grow up kid. So I told him that he was male and straight, because that was the most likely possibility. I told him that moving to a foreign country, starting at MIT as homeschooler, that he should simplify his rooming situation. I told him to say no to living with LGBT+. No one would see the form, no one would judge him, and he could change his mind sophomore year. But it was quite a day of conversation and angst. I really did struggle to know how to guide him in this new world. 

Edited June 23, 2021 by lewelma

[lewelma]

The summer before he left, he was also required to complete training in Sexual assault -- about 5 hours of it. And he was required to write an argumentative paper as to whether sexual harassment was a form of scientific misconduct.  Once again, time to grow up kid!  In the end, I had to sit with him through the sexual assault videos and readings. I'm sure we spent more time at it than other kids because there was just so much that was new and hard for him that I had to help him process and integrate. And the argumentative paper was actually fascinating to research and opened his eyes to sexual harassment in all its forms. I'm glad he did it, but I was also glad that I was available for many conversations that summer before he left. 

[Melissa Louise]

8 hours ago, Dmmetler said:

How many parents seek out gender clinics vs finding a therapist locally, or, if their child is at the "call me X, my pronouns are Y" stage, but isn't terribly distressed, just living with it? I believe the two nearest here are both 3-4 hours away, and I'm in a pretty big city. And I'm not sure either would be covered under my health plan, since we're pretty tied to one hospital network.  I would think that in many cases, you'd go to the first decent therapist you can find, and someone who focuses on, say, anxiety, or self injurious behavior, or an eating disorder or autism spectrum is likely to look at things a little less through a "if you just use the right pronouns, all problems will be solved" lens. And while I admit to not asking, somehow I can't imagine the pediatric office we see prescribing testosterone, since she tends to follow a "stay in your own Lane" and refer for everything that isn't a normal childhood illness. 

 

I'm actually wondering if that's why the kids in my circle mostly don't seem to be rushing to medicalize things. It seems to be social transitioning only, and treated similarly to coming out as gay/lesbian-ok, here's another piece of information about you. But, again, most of the kids I know are claiming to be NB in some way, which doesn't require anatomy changes. 

Most therapists affirm, whether or not they specialise in anxiety or whatever.

Quite a few refer on because they can't ethically do affirmation only, but can't risk false accusations of conversion therapy. 

 

 

[Melissa Louise]

6 hours ago, Pam in CT said:

re sequencing of therapy v medicalization

 

This Extended Therapy Before Medicalization journey is what all 3 of the FTM kids I know pretty well have experienced as well (all in the greater NYC area, so clinics did *exist* within 1-2 hour range... though insurance coverage certainly is a gating factor).

Only 1/3 is looking to anatomy intervention at some future point.  2/3 have started hormone therapy (but well after puberty).  The other has sat in the name & pronoun & presentation change lane for going on 8 years now, and after some rocky times seems to have landed there in reasonably stable shape.

 

I would characterize my area as relatively (it's all relative; there are some number of jerks anywhere in the planet) culturally hospitable to the L and G in LGBTQ, measured by early-adoption of state marriage and public accommodation laws, willingness of both public officials and many faith organizations to officiate marriages, rainbow flags and big welcome signs on many churches and etc.

T seems a significantly harder grapple, though, at least for the Boomer generation.

 

[Realizing as I'm mulling over this that I'm sort of conflating the OP question about "gender" with trans... and that is actually not what I believe.

What I actually believe -- this thread has helped me realize -- is, if as a society we somehow did a better job with mitigating the exogenous demands of "gender" expectations, we'd likely have a substantially smaller group of people whose distress led them towards T.  Not a group of 0 -- there clearly are some people who literally physically feel their BODIES don't fit -- but a smaller group of anatomical Ts and another category of folks who dress / affiliate / name & pronoun themselves however they please.

But I dunno how we get from here to there, when the FIRST QUESTION directed at a pregnant belly in the supermarket is "Boy or Girl?", or when male toddlers who wear nail polish to preschool are treated mercilessly by peers and teachers alike, or when any number of faith traditions literally lay down doctrine on what males v females should wear to be aligned with God's will. 

It's really not just about Toilet Policy.  There's something pretty deep and pretty universal that really really WANTS to sort masculine from feminine. As long as that's there -- and I can't see how to make it not-there -- I can't see how to break or expand the "gender" box... however much real distress could be alleviated if we could.

There's nothing deep that wants to sort masculine from feminine. That's just culture, and culture shifts all the time. 

There's something ingrained in us that sorts by male and female. That's evolution and is perhaps less amenable to change. 

Who, seriously, gives a **** about a feminine boy or a masculine girl? ( I mean, clearly, people with very rigid ideas about gender and/or people uncomfortable with 'gayness'. I figure they'll shift over time, but not if we collude in seeing femininity or masculinity as a signifier of sex).

 

 

 

[Melissa Louise]

6 hours ago, SanDiegoMom said:

There is a series of 7 essays by Angus Fox written on Quillete about specifically Rogd boys that is pretty insightful.  A lot of moms he talked to had experiences with rushed affirmation and offers of hormones.  

https://quillette.com/author/angus-fox/

 

Won't get read due to source. 

I agree it was an interesting series. I didn't agree with some of it, but it is good to see representation of their experiences. 

Iirc, most of the mothers interviewed are secular. 

[Melissa Louise]

5 hours ago, Minerva said:

A sincere thank you for this thread @MercyA and all of you brilliant, articulate, generous folks for taking the time to make your posts and share your personal experiences. This thread has been incredibly helpful to me. 

The very sad thing is that this is one of a handful of public places on the internet where an open conversation can take place.

Without hyperbole, it's one of less than five. 

This conversation was not violence. It did not cause harm. And yet, too often, it is shut down, pre-emptively, on the basis of those claims. 

 

 

[Melissa Louise]

3 hours ago, KSera said:

I’ve noticed that a lot of therapists advertise themselves as being CBT therapists, but then do very little of that during their sessions. Most seem to at least throw some in here or there, but we’ve spent a lot of time with CBT therapists wondering when they were finally going to get to the CBT. So far, the DBT therapists have been the only ones that have gotten down to business tackling specific thought patterns and behaviors right away. (I know that sounds like a lot of therapists, and it is. My older two have each seen several over the past 5 years.)

 

eta: just realizing that might sound like I’m negative on CBT. I’m not at all, I think the evidence is pretty clear it’s very helpful, which is why we have specifically looked for it when we’ve been looking for a therapist. My beef is with people advertising it but then not actually providing it. 

My wish is that DBT could be offered as standard therapy to anyone dealing with ongoing distress. CBT is shorter/cheaper, but DBT seems more effective. 

[Dmmetler]

 

30 minutes ago, lewelma said:

The summer before he left, he was also required to complete training in Sexual assault -- about 5 hours of it. And he was required to write an argumentative paper as to whether sexual harassment was a form of scientific misconduct.  Once again, time to grow up kid!  In the end, I had to sit with him through the sexual assault videos and readings. I'm sure we spent more time at it than other kids because there was just so much that was new and hard for him that I had to help him process and integrate. And the argumentative paper was actually fascinating to research and opened his eyes to sexual harassment in all its forms. I'm glad he did it, but I was also glad that I was available for many conversations that summer before he left. 

 

L had to do similar training because of taking college classes DE. The first year they waived the requirement due to age (honestly, I don't think anyone had ever imagined a 12 yr old taking enough credits to trigger the requirement, and it literally was not possible to make an account on the website required with an under 13 age), but the second year It was required. I am definitely glad we hit that at home the first time! (I'm guessing it will be required next fall as well, since it's a requirement for any school getting federal funds, and I doubt it will carry over to a different school in a different state). And it's a part of early college life I hadn't considered and hadn't seen mentioned anywhere. 

[maize]

6 hours ago, KSera said:

 

Thank you for sharing your family's experience.

[LMD]

3 hours ago, KSera said:

 I really think a lot of the girls presenting this way really do just want to opt out of what “woman” has come to mean. Woman has a very negative connotation... They want nothing to do with it. 
 

This is the part of the ftm trans spike that I really want people to not brush over. 

There is something going on here! Why, suddenly, are so many girls willing to consider cutting off breasts and taking drugs just to avoid being labeled woman. 

Do you know, KSera, what those negative connotations of 'woman' are, in their mind? What has woman come to mean to them, and where did this idea come from? 

I have my theories, and no doubt it's complex. 

[lewelma]

1 hour ago, LMD said:

 

Do you know, KSera, what those negative connotations of 'woman' are, in their mind? What has woman come to mean to them, and where did this idea come from? 

For the FtM trans student I tutored for 3 years during transition, as a girl of 15 she had had lesbian relationships and I know one of which resulted in a terrible breakup.  By 16, she hated her breasts and bottom parts. They disgusted her. She would burn them. I know because I treated the burns. Eventually she got hormones for a permanent transition to male. So as a girl, she did not hate the idea of 'woman', rather she hated the physical parts that went with xx. Her disgust at her body did remind me of anorexia, as I had a roommate in college who almost died of it. 

 

[KSera]

3 hours ago, Melissa Louise said:

The very sad thing is that this is one of a handful of public places on the internet where an open conversation can take place.

Without hyperbole, it's one of less than five. 

This conversation was not violence. It did not cause harm. And yet, too often, it is shut down, pre-emptively, on the basis of those claims. 

 

 

I’ve been amazed that we’ve been able to have this discussion so we’ll, actually. I wouldn’t have felt able to share my conflicted feelings about this honestly anywhere else. It’s not an acceptable conversation most places. 

1 hour ago, LMD said:

This is the part of the ftm trans spike that I really want people to not brush over. 

There is something going on here! Why, suddenly, are so many girls willing to consider cutting off breasts and taking drugs just to avoid being labeled woman. 

Do you know, KSera, what those negative connotations of 'woman' are, in their mind? What has woman come to mean to them, and where did this idea come from? 

I have my theories, and no doubt it's complex. 

There is definitely something going on, and I agree it’s an important question. I’d be interested to have the conversation with them sometime. I think they’d be open to discussing. I don’t know whether they will be able to put words to it or not. I can say from other discussions that a lot about looks comes into it. They have a lot of insecurities about their looks, and feel that those things only matter if they are being read as female, and otherwise, it doesn’t matter and they can feel fine about themself because their looks only matter if they are female. They think they would have to be pretty if female. There are also fears about dangers of being a woman that don’t exist (in their mind) if they don’t look female. 

[LMD]

Thank you for your thoughts KSera. I don't have time to fully reply right now but I'll be back.

I note that we are back to language and vocabulary difficulties, and I'm reminded of something SWB says in her writing talks - writing problems are almost always thought problems. I'm interested in the thoughts, the reasoning, behind the emotions.

[KSera]

47 minutes ago, LMD said:

I'm reminded of something SWB says in her writing talks - writing problems are almost always thought problems.

This is so true. I’ve started many a post in response to this thread or one of a couple other more involved threads here lately, and found myself getting tied up somewhere between my thoughts and my words, and when that happens, my thoughts become less cogent and I have to can the post and go back to the drawing board and check my thinking through from the beginning. Sometimes, doing so results in some kind of new insight. I had one earlier today involving CRT versus gender theory, but it needs a lot more time in my brain before I can put it into words.

[LucyStoner]

6 hours ago, SKL said:

When I make brief observations like this to my kids (who have not stated they are trans, but have lots of friends who have), they label me as "transphobic."

So they are learning not to listen to or trust those of us who don't encourage this trend.  Not sure what to say about that.

My kids and nieces and nephew don’t go as far as labeling me transphobic but that is largely because they know that argument is borderline ridiculous when applied to me.  So they have to sit with knowing that several things can be true at once, which I think is good for them-  I love them to pieces and support them in practical ways month in and month out; I am neither “uneducated” or “transphobic”; I am nonetheless gender critical/skeptical; we all have the right to have our own opinions on this or any other topic.  

One thing that does bother me is seeing the degree to which kids are encouraged to think their parents are hateful bigots.  My niece even tried to use that one on my brother (who is cautious but affirming), which we just found amusing.  

[KSera]

3 minutes ago, LucyStoner said:

One thing that does bother me is seeing the degree to which kids are encouraged to think their parents are hateful bigots.  My niece even tried to use that one on my brother (who is cautious but affirming), which we just found amusing.  

Yeah, I don’t know how/why people think that is helpful. My dc was in tears last week over the fact that no matter how many times dc tells their friends that their parents are not the problem and they want them to stop talking bad about us and it makes them feel terrible, the “friends” refuse to honor that request and continue, making dc feel like they have few friends they can hang out with who don’t make them feel miserable 😢. 

[LucyStoner]

3 hours ago, LMD said:

This is the part of the ftm trans spike that I really want people to not brush over. 

There is something going on here! Why, suddenly, are so many girls willing to consider cutting off breasts and taking drugs just to avoid being labeled woman. 

Do you know, KSera, what those negative connotations of 'woman' are, in their mind? What has woman come to mean to them, and where did this idea come from? 

I have my theories, and no doubt it's complex. 

I don’t grill the kids in my family but besides the “more than just a girl” comment, some things have tumbled out.  The niece who said more than just a girl also thought that wearing glasses (like me, she can’t wear contacts) and having pimples made her ugly and it’s not ok to be an ugly girl.  She is neither ugly or fat but is convinced she is both.  She seems to be coming into a greater degree of acceptance- buying swimsuits again and she stopped binding after I took her bra shopping at her request.  She’s the kid who uses different pronouns in different settings and the one who talks the most about her feelings.

With my niece and nephew whose dad isn’t trans, I swear it’s at least partially  about pissing off/distancing from their dad.   My older brother is an alcoholic who battered their mom.  That niece has a history of self harm.  I helped her find counseling for that.  

[Pam in CT]

re distinction between "sorting" male v female, and "sorting" masculine v feminine

22 hours ago, Murphy101 said:

Gender and sex are the same thing.  I do not think there’s any logical reason to claim there’s any difference.

Do you see a logical reason that (in our culture) neckties are for men, and high heels are for women?

(I can come up with reasons. But I'd need to do some pretty acrobatic leaps of apologetics to label those reasons logical.)

 

re role of culture in shaping those kinds of sorting expectations

15 hours ago, Melissa Louise said:

There's nothing deep that wants to sort masculine from feminine. That's just culture, and culture shifts all the time. 

There's something ingrained in us that sorts by male and female. That's evolution and is perhaps less amenable to change. ...

I think I concur with all of this.

Where I get hung up is: even though cultures across space and time and (religious traditions / climate / ethnic differences / etc) have come up with *different* cultural markers to differentiate ~what I'm calling gender~ -- different hairstyles or head coverings for men v women, or hard lines around pants v dresses, or bound feet or tattoos or whatever; where **right now in our own culture** we happen to do neckties and suits, high heels and makeup...

... has there ever been, anywhere, a culture that HASN'T sorted ~what I'm calling gender~ by visible outward markers, or pretty hard role expectations even for individuals who are (forex) infertile; or better/more interested in the expected work/roles of the "other" than those assigned to their own?  Where folks really-truly could choose to wear/act/present/work however they --as an individual -- wanted, across expectations for sex, without all kinds of explicit and implicit social sanctions*?
 

 

15 hours ago, Melissa Louise said:

...Who, seriously, gives a **** about a feminine boy or a masculine girl? ( I mean, clearly, people with very rigid ideas about gender and/or people uncomfortable with 'gayness'. I figure they'll shift over time, but not if we collude in seeing femininity or masculinity as a signifier of sex).

I see a LOT of people who respond quite differently to a cute 3 year old wearing sparkly nail polish... depending on whether the toddler is "male" or "female."  From peers to teachers to parents torn between "protecting the (male) kid from how we know others out in the world will respond" to wanting to support the kid wearing whatever felt lovely.

 

If we actually lived in a society where no one gave a ***** about a feminine boy or a masculine girl, I think a whole lot of real anguish would be alleviated; and I *suspect* a good number of kids who currently are attributing their identification as trans would simply dress / identify / affiliate in a big bucket of androgynous / ambiguous / not-easily-identifiable-from-the-outside.

I don't live in such a society. 

 

 

 

 

* from witch burning to religiously-based dress & conduct codes to civil law to social shunning...

 

 

[Hyacinth]

This may be way off base, but I wonder if at least some of the "I'd rather not be a woman" thinking is related to the pervasive, derogatory, and just downright evil nature of porn that young people are exposed to.

(I'm about to get graphic here so scroll on by if you don't want the mental images.)

[Deleted by moderator because this forum doesn't really need this level of detail spelt out.]

If I came of age with THAT as a formative part of how I understood femaleness, I'd want out too.

Edited June 25, 2021 by Rosie_0801

[maize]

1 hour ago, Pam in CT said:

re distinction between "sorting" male v female, and "sorting" masculine v feminine

Do you see a logical reason that (in our culture) neckties are for men, and high heels are for women?

(I can come up with reasons. But I'd need to do some pretty acrobatic leaps of apologetics to label those reasons logical.)

 

re role of culture in shaping those kinds of sorting expectations

I think I concur with all of this.

Where I get hung up is: even though cultures across space and time and (religious traditions / climate / ethnic differences / etc) have come up with *different* cultural markers to differentiate ~what I'm calling gender~ -- different hairstyles or head coverings for men v women, or hard lines around pants v dresses, or bound feet or tattoos or whatever; where **right now in our own culture** we happen to do neckties and suits, high heels and makeup...

... has there ever been, anywhere, a culture that HASN'T sorted ~what I'm calling gender~ by visible outward markers, or pretty hard role expectations even for individuals who are (forex) infertile; or better/more interested in the expected work/roles of the "other" than those assigned to their own?  Where folks really-truly could choose to wear/act/present/work however they --as an individual -- wanted, across expectations for sex, without all kinds of explicit and implicit social sanctions*?
 

 

I see a LOT of people who respond quite differently to a cute 3 year old wearing sparkly nail polish... depending on whether the toddler is "male" or "female."  From peers to teachers to parents torn between "protecting the (male) kid from how we know others out in the world will respond" to wanting to support the kid wearing whatever felt lovely.

 

If we actually lived in a society where no one gave a ***** about a feminine boy or a masculine girl, I think a whole lot of real anguish would be alleviated; and I *suspect* a good number of kids who currently are attributing their identification as trans would simply dress / identify / affiliate in a big bucket of androgynous / ambiguous / not-easily-identifiable-from-the-outside.

I don't live in such a society. 

 

 

 

 

* from witch burning to religiously-based dress & conduct codes to civil law to social shunning...

 

 

 

I don't think there has ever been such a society.

I think there is a strong evolutionary drive to differentiate male from female, and that gets spun into culture and gender presentations and expectations.

I think it is possible to intentionally push back against this human inclination to box people in according to gender, just as I think it is possible to push back against the equally natural human inclination towards in-group/out-group bias and general tribalism that contributes to racial, ethnic, religious, etc. friction and conflict. We are influenced by instinct, but not limited by it--the ability to override instinct is the advantage of our highly developed prefrontal cortex.

 

[SKL]

Yeah, why are girls so horrified by the thought of becoming women?  Really a good question.  Maybe I'll ask my kids if that is going on at school and what they think about it.

I do recall my kid saying she thinks God is sexist because he put all the natural burdens on women.  I disagreed.  I think there are lots of benefits to being a woman.  Though, to be fair, I didn't have that wisdom when I was my kids' age.

There was and is a lot of rhetoric that amounts to victim mentality.  I mean yes, obviously discrimination is a thing and stereotypes are bad etc., but none of that stops women from having happy, productive lives in general today.

And it's not like being trans would make a person less likely to face discrimination, wrong stereotypes, etc.  Do kids not realize that?  If not, why not?  I would have understood that at their age, even though we didn't have internet etc.

Edited June 28, 2021 by SKL

[Faith-manor]

On 6/21/2021 at 4:44 PM, regentrude said:

Interesting, thanks for sharing. My experience is exactly the opposite. Even in middle school, I prefered playing soccer and wrestlig with the guys to the gossippy way the girls' cliques operated. When I started rock climbing, I was the only girl in our group. I majored in a male dominated field in college. My young adult years were spent almost exclusively in male company and I loved it. I just could be myself. No drama. Maybe I was just lucky with the guys in my circle. Nobody ever hit on me or expected me to be "girlish". No drama, no walking on eggshells. With the guys, I could just be  person and they were cool with it. (I did get catapulted into women dominated circles through motherhood and homeschooling)
I have found the men in my acquaintance - whether I met them through physics, rock climbing, poetry, or music  - interesting conversationalists. I don't think men or women are intrinsically better or worse at talking; you just have to have things in common.

ETA: Upon rereading, I realize that I wrote "no drama" twice. I am not going back to edit that out, because I think this is an important message from my subconscious: it was, for my personal experience, the most defining difference between female and male groups.
Please note that I am writing about MY personal experience here and am not claiming men never have drama; that would, of course, be absurd. But I found women to have a much higher level of it.

This is very similar to my experience. Though I feel somewhat "feminine", I am solidly in the men's camp socially most of the time. It began as a child because though not a prodigy, I was extremely, musically gifted, in that upper echelon kind of way, and discovered early on that when it came to piano, the performance world was dominated by males, and females were treated very, very differently. In our conservative area, the social narrative was that it was okay for me to be good enough to play for church, or for the school musical, to someday give some piano lessons, maybe just maybe major in music ed. But what I was not supposed to do was give a boy a run for his money at a scholarship competition, a concerto competition, consider a piano performance career. The assumption always was that women needed to have babies, and refrain from the demands of a performance career. Sure gifted female vocalists were revered, in a very weird way, admired and yet a bit reviled also for choosing such a career. But in the 1970's, exactly how many female, concert pianists were there? Right. My side passions were science and mathematics, the very subjects that the teachers at my school said "girls aren't good at".

So I learned early on to hate being female, and to gravitate toward boys and later men in groups because that was the place it was okay to be super talented at " boy things". While these boxes have definitely expanded, the reality is I never referred back to any sense of comfort with feminine dominated groups. I don't get it. The feminine part got kind of beat out of me after years of fighting an uphill battle in a male dominated world. And so now I get it. I would love to see gender as a classification of people go the way of the dodo.

Aerospace engineering and rocketry are the lights in my life currently, and again dominated by men. When I go to the launch field, I am one of only two women among a 100 men engaging in high powered rocketry pursuits. I am happy to say that I have ushered three young women through their first levels of HPR certification. The box expanded, and yet has some terrible, sterotypical , unhealthy undercurrents that need to just die already, and I don't think that is going to happen until a more radical approach is taken.

It isn't enough for the boxes to just expand because the boxes hurt people. The boxes need to go away, and the language that keeps reinforcing the boxes needs to change in order for the boxes to be flattened and people just get to be people.

[KSera]

1 hour ago, Faith-manor said:

The boxes need to go away, and the language that keeps reinforcing the boxes needs to change in order for the boxes to be flattened and people just get to be people.

One of my thoughts has been that we may just be in a particularly painful period in the journey to that goal. Perhaps this current phase of more rigid boxes than it seems we have had in sometime is a steppingstone to eliminating those boxes. That would be a good end result, but doesn’t make me feel good about the young people whose bodies may be casualties of this part of the progress.

[regentrude]

4 hours ago, SKL said:

I do recall my kid saying she thinks God is sexist because he put all the natural burdens on women.  I disagreed.    

If they're referring to the God of Christianity,  I completely agree with them. Doesn't he say explicitly that women shall suffer in childbirth because of Eve's sin? That's pretty misogynist. 

( Not to mention that more intelligent design could have spared us periods, as is the case with most other mammals). And the whole submission to husband stuff? 

[Melissa Louise]

33 minutes ago, KSera said:

One of my thoughts has been that we may just be in a particularly painful period in the journey to that goal. Perhaps this current phase of more rigid boxes than it seems we have had in sometime is a steppingstone to eliminating those boxes. That would be a good end result, but doesn’t make me feel good about the young people whose bodies may be casualties of this part of the progress.

I think it's backlash against a loosening of gender norms. I honestly don't know how else to explain my kids - grew up in an explicitly don't give a **** about gender way - and still, post 2016, developed a belief that gender is a Good and Noble thing. 

All that explicit feminism clearly just primed them to embrace a complete rejection of it. 

The focus on gender makes me sad, and so tired. My dearest wish is that I never had to hear about, consider or think about gender ever again. I don't know why people consider it so liberatory.

[Melissa Louise]

7 hours ago, Pam in CT said:

re distinction between "sorting" male v female, and "sorting" masculine v feminine

Do you see a logical reason that (in our culture) neckties are for men, and high heels are for women?

(I can come up with reasons. But I'd need to do some pretty acrobatic leaps of apologetics to label those reasons logical.)

 

re role of culture in shaping those kinds of sorting expectations

I think I concur with all of this.

Where I get hung up is: even though cultures across space and time and (religious traditions / climate / ethnic differences / etc) have come up with *different* cultural markers to differentiate ~what I'm calling gender~ -- different hairstyles or head coverings for men v women, or hard lines around pants v dresses, or bound feet or tattoos or whatever; where **right now in our own culture** we happen to do neckties and suits, high heels and makeup...

... has there ever been, anywhere, a culture that HASN'T sorted ~what I'm calling gender~ by visible outward markers, or pretty hard role expectations even for individuals who are (forex) infertile; or better/more interested in the expected work/roles of the "other" than those assigned to their own?  Where folks really-truly could choose to wear/act/present/work however they --as an individual -- wanted, across expectations for sex, without all kinds of explicit and implicit social sanctions*?
 

 

I see a LOT of people who respond quite differently to a cute 3 year old wearing sparkly nail polish... depending on whether the toddler is "male" or "female."  From peers to teachers to parents torn between "protecting the (male) kid from how we know others out in the world will respond" to wanting to support the kid wearing whatever felt lovely.

 

If we actually lived in a society where no one gave a ***** about a feminine boy or a masculine girl, I think a whole lot of real anguish would be alleviated; and I *suspect* a good number of kids who currently are attributing their identification as trans would simply dress / identify / affiliate in a big bucket of androgynous / ambiguous / not-easily-identifiable-from-the-outside.

I don't live in such a society. 

 

 

 

 

* from witch burning to religiously-based dress & conduct codes to civil law to social shunning...

 

 

 

I find it incredibly depressing that we just give up. And then embrace a form of progress that sees life-long medication and complex, serious surgeries as a path to liberation. 

That's just madness to me. Social insanity. 

 

 

[lewelma]

On 6/23/2021 at 9:48 PM, SKL said:

While some may think the current version of "openness / supportiveness" is helpful to those with actual gender dysphoria, I don't think so.  I think it trivializes the distress that some parents are talking about above.  In a way it's a little like white kids wearing blackface to a costume party.

This is a really interesting comment. 

[Murphy101]

9 hours ago, Pam in CT said:

re distinction between "sorting" male v female, and "sorting" masculine v feminine

Do you see a logical reason that (in our culture) neckties are for men, and high heels are for women?

(I can come up with reasons. But I'd need to do some pretty acrobatic leaps of apologetics to label those reasons logical.)

I think “neckties are for men” is rather silly bc a tie just a tiny scarf.  And women can totally pull off a neck tie and look very feminine still.  I think heels are impractical and damaging to feet and backs for all sexes.

None of which changes anything about gender and sex being the same, bc they have nothing to do with clothing.  Fashion is a rather whimsical and arbitrary thing to base sex on. 

[lewelma]

9 hours ago, maize said:

I don't think there has ever been such a society.

 

Agreed.

On 6/24/2021 at 7:04 AM, LucyStoner said:

1. the vast majority of each of their distinct friend groups are also identifying as trans.  These are kids who go to different schools across the county I live in.  ...

Even the kids in question acknowledge that, yeah, it seems to be inauthentic for at least some of the kids (but they, they themselves are actually trans).  

My son has come to this conclusion. He has been in a drama group of 6 kids for about 5 years (he is the only homeschooler), and at this point he is the only straight cis male. To him, his friends all seem to try to outdo each other with their labels, which seem to change year to year. He has been profoundly influenced by these interactions and his best friend's experience of medical transitioning that he has done a LOT of thinking on the issue. He chose last year to do an entire half credit course on conformity. We read textbooks, learned about norms, how they are enforced both internally and externally, watched movies, read novels, did lots of discussion about the causes and consequences of conformity. And this class culminated with a comparison of the different types of conformity found in three of Jane Austen's novels and how they were enforced through internal and external means. But then he concluded with conformity we see today. He feels like conformity today is about being different. That to be cool and popular in his group, you must not be the same as the others, rather you have to be as different as possible, which is totally opposite to the conformity of the Austen era. Today, being different is how you conform to his generation's social norms. 

Edited June 25, 2021 by lewelma

[lewelma]

7 minutes ago, Murphy101 said:

 gender and sex being the same,

I think I missed the definition you are referring to. Gender has so many meanings today, the basic/original being gender is behaviours and sex is xx/xy. But then this whole thread we have been discussing how these meanings are changing. What is it that you are saying is the same? Honest question, not being snarky.

[saraha]

3 hours ago, Melissa Louise said:

he focus on gender makes me sad, and so tired. My dearest wish is that I never had to hear about, consider or think about gender ever again. I don't know why people consider it so liberatory.

I feel this so deeply, right now at least once a day the discussion of someone’s partner preferences, someone’s gender nonconformity and someone’s socially different  behaviors are brought up by someone here every day. I have talked til I was blue in the face about how these lgbtq+ labels are just another way to separate and divide people, but my kids just think I don’t know what I am talking about and that I want to shove things in the closet when in reality, I would not like people discussing my choice of partners, the way I express myself through dress, or dissect my interests to see what label I am, and I don’t want that for others, be they celebrities or our neighbors.

I don’t understand why when we talk about a movie or actor one of my dc will trot out, did you know so and so is (fill in label here)? When it really has nothing to do with anything. I would not want whether I was gay or straight or dressing like the opposite gender to be one of the first things said about me, I would like to think I am more complex than that.

I also can’t understand why they can’t see how backwards all the labeling is. My dh and my daughter who really has struggled with figuring herself out both keep trying to tell me it’s a phase. I hope that maturity will bring wisdom in this area because the kids around me just make me roll my eyes because they are so much more supportive and inclusive than I am while insisting they all label each other.

Sorry, vent over

[lewelma]

4 minutes ago, saraha said:

 I would like to think I am more complex than that.

 

5 minutes ago, saraha said:

I feel this so deeply, right now at least once a day the discussion of someone’s partner preferences, someone’s gender nonconformity and someone’s socially different  behaviors are brought up by someone here every day. I have talked til I was blue in the face about how these lgbtq+ labels are just another way to separate and divide people, but my kids just think I don’t know what I am talking about and that I want to shove things in the closet when in reality, I would not like people discussing my choice of partners, the way I express myself through dress, or dissect my interests to see what label I am, and I don’t want that for others, be they celebrities or our neighbors.

I don’t understand why when we talk about a movie or actor one of my dc will trot out, did you know so and so is (fill in label here)? When it really has nothing to do with anything. I would not want whether I was gay or straight or dressing like the opposite gender to be one of the first things said about me, I would like to think I am more complex than that.

I also can’t understand why they can’t see how backwards all the labeling is. My dh and my daughter who really has struggled with figuring herself out both keep trying to tell me it’s a phase. I hope that maturity will bring wisdom in this area because the kids around me just make me roll my eyes because they are so much more supportive and inclusive than I am while insisting they all label each other.

Sorry, vent over

Not a vent, IMHO. More a heartfelt description. Thanks for sharing. As for all the labelling, why do we need to put each other or ourselves in boxes.  Seriously, what is the purpose? Is it to find your own tribe? To show solidarity? To prove you embrace the modern worldview? To find solace in shared experience?  What?  

[LMD]

4 hours ago, Melissa Louise said:

I think it's backlash against a loosening of gender norms. I honestly don't know how else to explain my kids - grew up in an explicitly don't give a **** about gender way - and still, post 2016, developed a belief that gender is a Good and Noble thing. 

All that explicit feminism clearly just primed them to embrace a complete rejection of it. 

The focus on gender makes me sad, and so tired. My dearest wish is that I never had to hear about, consider or think about gender ever again. I don't know why people consider it so liberatory.

Okay, these are some of my unformed thoughts jumping off of this:

We as humans seem to feel safer with order and stability. We like categories, because it helps us filter and feel like we can understand something of this vast and complex world.

One way we create this order is social norms. Sexual reproduction is an obvious touch point, because it effects how a person will move through the world - especially historically, pre effective birth control. Some of those norms were good/neutral/bad/we don't really know. 

Modern life has become increasingly unmoored. Kind of a baby/bathwater situation. We tried to get rid of the harmful norms, we created a vacuum. Kids are more anxious and have more confused senses of self. Kind of like decision fatigue, before they've even started the day.

The vacuum will be filled. What is the modern teen's world norms? Online, avatars, filters, likes, p0rn, youth, and labels for everything. You're not a person who's interested in x, y, z, you're an x, y, z-er! The categories haven't gone away, they've multiplied, and why would you choose the boring box that your mum is in when you could be interesting! 

I'm not at all saying we should go back to harmful trad norms. I quite prefer living as a modern woman! But what some of us are trying to point out is that the new labels are just as restrictive as the old ones, just as ferociously fought over (have you seen a bisexual vs pansexual fight?!). Except now they're based almost entirely on the feelings of teenagers, and to try to claw them back to the material world is 'unkind.'

None of this would necessarily be a problem if the grown ups in the room kept their heads. Define your terms before writing them into law, mammalian sexual dimorphic reproduction exists and matters, medical transition is not neutral and should have a level of gatekeeping...

 

Eta - ksera's post below reminded me where I was going with this...

Identity. Building an identity from scratch, with no input from social nor biological parameters, is frightening! Where on earth would you start?

Edited June 25, 2021 by LMD

[lewelma]

I've been reading some of the posts from this thread to my ds, and he has been astounded that we can have this conversation. He said that he simply can NOT discuss any nuance about this complex topic with his peer group. He must show support. Period. 

Based on his Austen paper, he stays silent (conforms to the norms) through his own internal enforcement of his behaviour which is enforced through implied threat of ostracism. 

Edited June 25, 2021 by lewelma

[KSera]

13 minutes ago, saraha said:

I would not want whether I was gay or straight or dressing like the opposite gender to be one of the first things said about me, I would like to think I am more complex than that.

I feel this as well. I was pondering the other day how we might find a middle ground with pronouns, so they don’t seem like the most important thing besides our name. I understand giving your pronouns with your name helps those whose pronouns might not be clear, but I’m finding it’s often feeling performative to me in practice. I have a group meeting weekly that has about 12-15 people each week on average, usually all the same, but once a month or so, someone new might join (and someone else leaves). Every week, before we speak we are supposed to give our name and our pronouns. Now, I do sometimes appreciate name reminders, especially with new people, and I can theoretically understand giving pronouns when their is someone new, for the above reason. But honestly, we all KNOW everyone’s pronouns. There literally has never been a surprise, and I don’t know why we have to restate them every single time when it’s all people who know each other. It feels, like I said, performative.  On the other hand, I do see why they do that in my teen and young adult kids’ classes, because there are a significant number of students with pronouns that might not be obvious. I’d really like another way that didn’t make that seem like the most important thing about all of us, though. Because for a lot of kids, that seems to be part of a self fulfilling prophecy that it really is the primary thing that identifies them. 
 

 

[LMD]

Just now, lewelma said:

I've been reading some of the posts from this thread to my ds, and he has been astounded that we can have this conversation. He said that he simply can NOT discuss any nuance about this complex topic with his peer group. He must show support. Period. 

Based on his Austen paper, he stays silent through his own internal enforcement of his behaviour which is enforced through implied threat of ostracism. 

Your unit on conformity sounds fascinating, lewelma! I'd love to know some of the sources you used.

Yes, the complete no debate is frankly scary. We couldn't always have this discussion here, the conversation has shifted from 5 years ago. No one has called me a bigot yet! #winning 

That is part of what caught my attention at first, how quickly this topic became unspeakable. I have never seen anything so censored. The internet, when it first started ~back in my day *chews on straw in my rocking chair*~ was all about free speech, power to the people etc. Now it's all banning, cancelling, even fricking 4chan banned aspects of this conversation. 

[lewelma]

1 hour ago, LMD said:

Your unit on conformity sounds fascinating, lewelma! I'd love to know some of the sources you used.

It was fascinating. We did about 10 hours per week for 15 weeks so about 150 hours -- so we covered a lot of content. We started with Jane Austen movies, and we talked and talked and talked. Then, we started researching both discussions of conformity in published article about Austen's novels, and then psychological textbooks and articles on the internet about conformity in general. Our readings simply developed out of our questions, so I have no idea what sources we used. Then, we picked movies like The Wave and novels like Lord of the Flies, and discussed them and wrote about them, honing our ability to analyze conformity. We ended with the comparison of what drove the conformity of the protagonists of Pride and Prejudice, Sense and Sensibility, Persuasion, and Jane Eyre.  We started the project during our 7 week intense lockdown, so the whole family was involved as my older had returned from Boston.  It was a wonderful effort, and powerfully useful for navigating life in today's teen world. 

Edited June 25, 2021 by lewelma

[SKL]

6 hours ago, regentrude said:

If they're referring to the God of Christianity,  I completely agree with them. Doesn't he say explicitly that women shall suffer in childbirth because of Eve's sin? That's pretty misogynist. 

( Not to mention that more intelligent design could have spared us periods, as is the case with most other mammals). And the whole submission to husband stuff? 

That's a one-sided view though.  Per the Bible (and per life experience), God also put burdens on males.

The men who wrote and translated the Bible did downplay the importance of women and their blessings and superpowers.  But we don't have to be limited by that.

[Melissa Louise]

19 hours ago, Hyacinth said:

This may be way off base, but I wonder if at least some of the "I'd rather not be a woman" thinking is related to the pervasive, derogatory, and just downright evil nature of porn that young people are exposed to.

(I'm about to get graphic here so scroll on by if you don't want the mental images.)

[Deleted by moderator because this forum doesn't really need this level of detail spelt out.]

If I came of age with THAT as a formative part of how I understood femaleness, I'd want out too.

This article (lesbian detransitioner) talks about the nexus of dysphoria and porn, among other things.

https://lesbianandgaynews.com/2021/06/lauren-black-gloves-off-im-going-to-talk-about-how-dysphoria-plus-the-gingerbread-model-plus-pornography-leads-to-the-creation-of-who-i-call-porn-addled-robot-people/

[Faith-manor]

11 hours ago, lewelma said:

 

Not a vent, IMHO. More a heartfelt description. Thanks for sharing. As for all the labelling, why do we need to put each other or ourselves in boxes.  Seriously, what is the purpose? Is it to find your own tribe? To show solidarity? To prove you embrace the modern worldview? To find solace in shared experience?  What?  

I believe humans function a lot like a hen house. They have to figure out who is on the bottom so they can peck them to death which makes them feel better about their life in the coop apparently. We seem to have an internal need to have people who serve as kicking posts.

Sadly, I have seen enough in this past year to convince me I am a better person if I just embrace being a feral chicken.

[marbel]

9 hours ago, SKL said:

That's a one-sided view though.  Per the Bible (and per life experience), God also put burdens on males.

The men who wrote and translated the Bible did downplay the importance of women and their blessings and superpowers.  But we don't have to be limited by that.

Yep.

Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her... (Ephesians 5 ESV). 

 

 

Edited June 25, 2021 by marbel

[Faith-manor]

27 minutes ago, marbel said:

Yep.

Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her... (Ephesians 5 ESV). 

 

 

That really does not negate the near constant berating and degradation of women in this book. Not much actually makes up for god telling the Israelites to go genocide some folks, but preserve some young virgins for raping. The bible in its treatment of women and children is indefensible. I am sorry that such a huge number of persons still feel the need to twist themselves into knots trying to make it sound palatable and "loving".

Edited June 25, 2021 by Faith-manor

[marbel]

OK, I was just responding to the comment about misogyny and I probably shouldn't have posted, since this thread is not about that and it's too easy to derail into a good God/bad God tangent.   

I'm sorry to @MercyA for continuing the derail. 

[SKL]

14 minutes ago, Faith-manor said:

That really does not negate the near constant berating and degradation of women in this book. Not much actually makes up for god telling the Israelites to go genocide some folks, but preserve some young virgins for raping. The bible in its treatment of women and children is indefensible. I am sorry that such a huge number of persons still feel the need to twist themselves into knots trying to make it sound palatable and "loving".

FTR my kid was talking about God our creator, not the writers of the Bible.  I don't hold or teach the position that every word of the Bible (as translated into English) is exactly what God intended as a timeless message.

That said, the vast majority of writings throughout history have either ignored women or cast them in a lesser role.  I don't believe in canceling the vast majority of world literature because of how times were in the past.  Humans are complex enough to read these things through a rational filter.  And trying to cancel actual history seems like a really bad idea.

Edited June 25, 2021 by SKL