How do you define gender?

[Dmmetler]

4 hours ago, Melissa Louise said:

Your kids school is behind the times. Gay is very much out, here in the whirlwind, as out as straight. Pan is the 'best' orientation because it's inclusive. Gay bigots with their genital preferences are barely better than straight bigots with theirs. In fact, weirdly, sometimes worse? 

 

 

I've noticed this, too. It definitely seems that Gay kids can't win for losing. In some areas, they're still at risk for being beaten up or at least yelled at for daring to hold hands and other very mild PDA that would be completely acceptable for straight kids, but apparently having a preference is considered bad now. So much for "you don't choose your orientation"! 

 

 

 

 

[KSera]

2 hours ago, SlowRiver said:

They seem to have no concept of a private self.

I think that’s largely a side effect of social media. 

[Melissa Louise]

https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/bjpsych-bulletin/article/sex-gender-and-gender-identity-a-reevaluation-of-the-evidence/76A3DC54F3BD91E8D631B93397698B1A#

 

Nice paper summarising some issues. From Cambridge University Press. 

[Chrysalis Academy]

Thanks for sharing, Melissa. I was particularly struck by this paragraph from the conclusion, which packs a lot of what we've been discussing into a couple of sentences:

"Being gender non-conforming, or wishing to opt out of gender altogether, is not only not indicative of mental disorder – it is, in many ways, an entirely rational response to present capitalist reliance on rigid gender norms and roles. However, when multiple medical interventions are required on an otherwise healthy body or doctors are expected to deny the concept of sex or the sexed body, the situation becomes less coherent. The notion of conversion therapy for those seeing themselves as transgender relies on another binary – that of ‘cisgender’ and ‘transgender’ – being set, closed, biologically anchored categories without overlap, rather than a more plausible hypothesis that one's gender identity is flexible, informed by one's culture, personality, personal preferences and social milieu."

Edited June 29, 2021 by Chrysalis Academy

[KSera]

12 hours ago, Melissa Louise said:

https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/bjpsych-bulletin/article/sex-gender-and-gender-identity-a-reevaluation-of-the-evidence/76A3DC54F3BD91E8D631B93397698B1A#

 

Nice paper summarising some issues. From Cambridge University Press. 

Thanks for sharing this. I was struck by many things, but especially this from right after the part Chrysalis quoted:

“In the rapidly moving and politicised debate, psychiatrists look to the RCPsych for guidance. Those providing and interpreting the scanty evidence from published research need to be independent and impartial, using best-quality measures rather than ideology. It is confusing to liken open-minded working with young patients as they figure out who they are to conversion therapy. Holding an empathic neutral middle ground, which might or might not include medical transition, should not be equated with this. Psychiatrists need to feel empowered to explore the meaning of identity with their patients, treat coexisting mental illness and employ a trauma-informed model of care when appropriate.”

My dc (when upset) sometimes says they want to find someone who would do “conversion therapy” and I try to explain that exploring more deeply what is going on and addressing pre-existing issues isn’t conversion therapy, but that is the clear message they have gotten from everything they read. 
 

I also noted the graph of Tavistock referrals and the way it looked like it had leveled off, and I wondered if that had continued to hold, and I also wondered what the same graph would look like in the US. I know it’s not unusual for us to be a little behind trends that begin in the UK, so I’m wondering if the UK saw the leveling off earlier than we did here. I don’t get the sense that it’s leveling off here yet, but I have no numbers to base that on, only personal experiences.

 

[Pam in CT]

1 hour ago, KSera said:

Thanks for sharing this. I was struck by many things, but especially this from right after the part Chrysalis quoted:

“In the rapidly moving and politicised debate, psychiatrists look to the RCPsych for guidance. Those providing and interpreting the scanty evidence from published research need to be independent and impartial, using best-quality measures rather than ideology. It is confusing to liken open-minded working with young patients as they figure out who they are to conversion therapy. Holding an empathic neutral middle ground, which might or might not include medical transition, should not be equated with this. Psychiatrists need to feel empowered to explore the meaning of identity with their patients, treat coexisting mental illness and employ a trauma-informed model of care when appropriate.”

My dc (when upset) sometimes says they want to find someone who would do “conversion therapy” and I try to explain that exploring more deeply what is going on and addressing pre-existing issues isn’t conversion therapy, but that is the clear message they have gotten from everything they read. 
 

I also noted the graph of Tavistock referrals and the way it looked like it had leveled off, and I wondered if that had continued to hold, and I also wondered what the same graph would look like in the US. I know it’s not unusual for us to be a little behind trends that begin in the UK, so I’m wondering if the UK saw the leveling off earlier than we did here. I don’t get the sense that it’s leveling off here yet, but I have no numbers to base that on, only personal experiences.

 

Wow, that (quite recent) discrepancy between the born-female vs the born-male rate is STRIKING.  3 to one and it looks from the graph (?) like the gap continues to widen even as the absolute numbers (particularly for the born-males) may be leveling off.

[KSera]

3 hours ago, Pam in CT said:

Wow, that (quite recent) discrepancy between the born-female vs the born-male rate is STRIKING.  3 to one and it looks from the graph (?) like the gap continues to widen even as the absolute numbers (particularly for the born-males) may be leveling off.

Yes, and it is so, so recent that this has happened. It means that none of the pre-existing research from 2010 and earlier can really be applied to this current population. And it means we have no long-term information on this group at all.

[Melissa Louise]

4 hours ago, Pam in CT said:

Wow, that (quite recent) discrepancy between the born-female vs the born-male rate is STRIKING.  3 to one and it looks from the graph (?) like the gap continues to widen even as the absolute numbers (particularly for the born-males) may be leveling off.

I didn't come by my concerns dishonestly...

 

[Pam in CT]

re discrepancy between born-male v born-female rates

56 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

I didn't come by my concerns dishonestly...

 

Of course not. How do you understand/attribute/hypothesize the discrepancy between born-males and born-females?

[Melissa Louise]

8 minutes ago, Pam in CT said:

re discrepancy between born-male v born-female rates

Of course not. How do you understand/attribute/hypothesize the discrepancy between born-males and born-females?

I hypothesize there is a strong element of social contagion where real psychological distress takes the form of the socially salient identity. 

 

 

 

 

 

[pinball]

28 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

I hypothesize there is a strong element of social contagion where real psychological distress takes the form of the socially salient identity. 

 

 

 

 

 

I’m not sure if you heard about it in Australia but several years ago about a dozen girls in some small little town here in the US were all diagnosed with conversion disorder. I think most of them were fainting or having seizures. 

It was this whole thing for weeks and weeks on the national news.

IIRC, most of the girls denied any life stressors but then some newspaper did a story that showed significant life stressors for a lot of them (a parent who died, an unplanned pregnancy, getting dumped by boyfriend).

the last followup I heard, most recovered with therapy

[Melissa Louise]

1 minute ago, pinball said:

I’m not sure if you heard about it in Australia but several years ago about a dozen girls in some small little town here in the US were all diagnosed with conversion disorder. I think most of them were fainting or having seizures. 

It was this whole thing for weeks and weeks on the national news.

IIRC, most of the girls denied any life stressors but then some newspaper did a story that showed significant life stressors for a lot of them (a parent who died, an unplanned pregnancy, getting dumped by boyfriend).

the last followup I heard, most recovered with therapy

Yes, social contagion is an accepted psychological concept. It doesn't mean what people might assume, that using the term means the girls are faking their symptoms - they aren't.

As a concept, it really speaks more to where the cause is located; in a complex interaction between the girl and her social environment.

Not, say, in her neurobiological structures.

[pinball]

6 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

Yes, social contagion is an accepted psychological concept. It doesn't mean what people might assume, that using the term means the girls are faking their symptoms - they aren't.

As a concept, it really speaks more to where the cause is located; in a complex interaction between the girl and her social environment.

Not, say, in her neurobiological structures.

I understand that their symptoms were real. They were not faking. 

It’s the social contagion part that struck me. I think (?) psychiatrists and doctors asked local TV stations and newspapers to stop doing stories about it. There were ongoing tallies daily about how many “victims” there were. 

[Melissa Louise]

12 minutes ago, pinball said:

I understand that their symptoms were real. They were not faking. 

It’s the social contagion part that struck me. I think (?) psychiatrists and doctors asked local TV stations and newspapers to stop doing stories about it. There were ongoing tallies daily about how many “victims” there were. 

Yep, interrupt the chain of contagion. 

Pretty much accepted re suicide as well. It's a contagious concept, so you report on it within very strict parameters. 

[Melissa Louise]

Speaking of media, and their role:

https://spectatorworld.com/topic/media-wrong-gender-reassignment-transgender/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

[KSera]

2 hours ago, Melissa Louise said:

Speaking of media, and their role:

https://spectatorworld.com/topic/media-wrong-gender-reassignment-transgender/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

That was very fair and well balanced, clearly not coming from a transphobe. It’s unfortunately it’s unlikely to be published in more main stream media, for the reasons he says. Frankly, it’s equally unfortunate if it’s picked up by right wing media and used for their purposes, as I think that would set back the goal of actually figuring out what’s going on with these kids and how to do right by them by continuing to make any concerns about this look like religious bigotry. 

[Melissa Louise]

58 minutes ago, KSera said:

That was very fair and well balanced, clearly not coming from a transphobe. It’s unfortunately it’s unlikely to be published in more main stream media, for the reasons he says. Frankly, it’s equally unfortunate if it’s picked up by right wing media and used for their purposes, as I think that would set back the goal of actually figuring out what’s going on with these kids and how to do right by them by continuing to make any concerns about this look like religious bigotry. 

Its really crappy, though, that people on the 'right side' remain wilfully uninformed. 

[SlowRiver]

Anorexia and eating disorders, cutting, etc, also all seem to be subject to social contagion among girls.

It's been a phenomena in middle schools forever that girls want to change their names, or take on a new style, in order to create some sort of group belonging. Much more so than boys. Teen girls also are usually the first group to pick up on language trends.

I'm not sure though that the assumption that the right-wing media have some sort of deep nefarious agenda with this is any more realistic than the idea that the left wing media do. In fact I think if anything, on this issue, the latter is more often the case.

[KSera]

8 hours ago, SlowRiver said:

'm not sure though that the assumption that the right-wing media have some sort of deep nefarious agenda with this is any more realistic than the idea that the left wing media do.

I think they come from different places. I think on the right, it comes from the same moralistic place that not wanting gay people to be able to marry comes from. I think they would have the same view on trans people even if we didn't have the current huge spike particularly among young people and all the attendant issues with body modification, etc. On the left, I think people *think* the correct, most progressive view is to go with the popular view that you immediately affirm and that they think they are supporting kids and preventing bad outcomes for them by doing that. Unfortunately, they are ignoring that doing so is causing harm as well, and I am extremely frustrated by the shouting down and attacking of very legitimate concerns from professionals and parents alike. People have doubled down so hard on this that it's going to be hard for them to mea culpa even if/when it becomes increasingly obvious that it's time to do so.