12-15 year olds vaccine experiences

[Not_a_Number]

50 minutes ago, mlktwins said:

So...the title of this thread is 12-15 year olds vaccine experiences!  Can we not just leave it at that?  On any of these types of threads?  They always get derailed and it sucks.  If I wanted to read about whack-a-doodle conspiracy theories, there are plenty of other places (and other threads) to read about them.  I would just like to know how the 12-15 year olds are doing with their shots!  I would like to support other parents making these decisions for their 12-15 year olds.

Good grief!  

Yes. Let’s stick to that. Great idea. I love these threads for data.

[Pen]

3 hours ago, crazyforlatin said:

•  

What's the maximum time between first and second shots that you would feel comfortable?

I personally do not feel “comfortable” with them at all.  So there’s no time which I would feel comfortable with in between since I am not comfortable with them in first place — especially for children. 
 

But CDC  apparently says: 
 

tps://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/covid-19/info-by-product/pfizer/pfizer-bioNTech-faqs.html

You should administer the second dose as close as possible to the recommended interval of 21 days after dose1. However, if it is not possible to follow the recommended interval, you may schedule the second dose of Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 Vaccine for administration up to 6 weeks (42 days) after the first dose. There are currently limited data on efficacy of mRNA COVID-19 vaccines administered ...

 

 

Edited May 25, 2021 by Pen

[mlktwins]

1 hour ago, Pen said:

I personally do not feel “comfortable” with them at all.  So there’s no time which I would feel comfortable with in between since I am not comfortable with them in first place — especially for children. 
 

But CDC  apparently says: 
 

tps://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/covid-19/info-by-product/pfizer/pfizer-bioNTech-faqs.html

You should administer the second dose as close as possible to the recommended interval of 21 days after dose1. However, if it is not possible to follow the recommended interval, you may schedule the second dose of Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 Vaccine for administration up to 6 weeks (42 days) after the first dose. There are currently limited data on efficacy of mRNA COVID-19 vaccines administered ...

 

 

Would you please get off this thread!!!  

[Pen]

38 minutes ago, mlktwins said:

Would you please get off this thread!!!  

 

Why? 

I am the only one here who even tried to answer @crazyforlatin’s question. (With 4 hours for you or others to have done so if you wished)    If someone else had tried to have done so I would not have.  
 

in all good conscience to myself I found I could not just give cdc statement without my own response to “comfort.”  I am sure @crazyforlatinis capable of using what she needs and ignoring the rest.  
 

I strongly suggest you,  @mlktwins, put me on “ignore” so as not to have to see replies that bother you. 
 

 

Edited May 25, 2021 by Pen
Clarification of time that no one else tried to answer

[pinball]

35 minutes ago, mlktwins said:

Would you please get off this thread!!!  

Pen answered crazy for latins question!

 

[KSera]

4 hours ago, crazyforlatin said:

Dd has food allergies, but she didn't react to the first shot, so I know she's not allergic to the vaccine. Is that safe to conclude? I thought I read that the second dose is more potent.

The second dose is exactly the same dosage, but many people have a stronger immune response to it. Since food allergies don’t tend to have much correlation to reactions to the vaccine anyway, and she did fine with the first one, an allergic reaction to the second would be pretty unlikely (obviously not impossible, since anyone can develop an allergy to anything at any time). I would personally feel comfortable, if there was a circumstance that required it, to wait and do the second shot at 12 weeks, since we now have a good deal of data from the UK on that schedule and it’s working well there (in fact, antibody response seems but it may be higher, but cell mediated response perhaps lower), but I know that’s not an approved schedule here, so doing it that way I’m not sure if she would be considered fully vaccinated. That would be a question for the doctor. 

[mlktwins]

19 minutes ago, Pen said:

 

Why? 

I am the only one here who even tried to answer @crazyforlatin’s question. (With 4 hours for you or others to have done so if you wished)    If someone else had tried to have done so I would not have.  
 

in all good conscience to myself I found I could not just give cdc statement without my own response to “comfort.”  I am sure @crazyforlatinis capable of using what she needs and ignoring the rest.  
 

I strongly suggest you,  @mlktwins, put me on “ignore” so as not to have to see replies that bother you. 
 

 

Have you had a child between the ages of 12 to 15 years old and received the vaccine?  Care to share your experience with that?  That is what this thread is about.

[mlktwins]

20 minutes ago, pinball said:

Pen answered crazy for latins question!

 

Yes, for that particular response.  But...I've read a lot of her posts -- not just in this thread.  She isn't what this thread is about.  

[SKL]

I think this thread is about giving information to inform parents of kids 12-15 (give or take) so they can make the best decisions for their kids.  As the parent of two 14yos, I'm interested not just in how Hive kids have reacted to Pfizer Dose 1 (so far), but also other info about pros and cons, risks, questions, things to watch out for, ongoing research, relevant to this approximate age group.

[Syllieann]

This thread title was changed once cdc granted approval.  Maybe we should have started a new thread for experiences and left this one to discuss other aspects of considering the vaccine for 12-15 or younger kids.  It seems both topics are still needed.

[Pen]

1 hour ago, mlktwins said:

Have you had a child between the ages of 12 to 15 years old and received the vaccine?  Care to share your experience with that?  That is what this thread is about.

I think if someone asks a question that giving an answer or reply is legitimate, even if it is not the one you want to hear.  That includes the question quoted above.  So perhaps blame yourself for asking it if you did not actually want a reply. 

I would have thought given my often expressed feelings that it would be quite clear that I would not be getting a 12-15 yo vaccinated.

 

I do think it was a correct decision for my father to make to get himself vaccinated in his circumstances and with short expected life span for other reasons. For him a sense of having even 3 to 6 months of “quality time” is huge.  

And then I would think there are people where taking an experimental vaccine makes even more sense than for my father. But for myself at least, a typical healthy 12-15 yo would not be.   The risks for children from Covid itself seem so extremely low that any potential short or long term adverse reaction seems magnified in comparison to the much less than 1% death/severe outcome risk for children that existed from the wild virus. 
 

 And I do realize that some children do get mis-c and some in the 12-15 age range have been very very sick and that some have died. And I also realize it can be hugely inconvenient to have the outbreaks and lockdowns and quarantines as are happening now for many especially unvaccinated children.  Nonetheless, to reiterate, no, I would not myself get ivaccine for a normal healthy child.  

 

The thread does interest me very much as it is age range of some of my younger relatives.  

 

 In my extended family the decisions will probably be made case by case.  My nephew who had Covid is potentially in a different category than nephews/cousins who did not, for example. Otoh, siblings and cousins who had equivalent exposures and did not get it may have already been immune due to innate immunity or acquired immunity from past seasonal illness

 

 

There was concern when we did not know what physicians, especially parents of minors in my family,   might be risking especially at work from the wild virus. Would they live or die? Might they have a terrible clots and limb amputations problem?  As names and photos of dead doctors in China were released it seemed like it could be them soon just as easily. Especially for my sister who like Dr Li is an ophthalmologist and tends to be up close to patients face to face, her breathing near to patient’s breathing, with many patients in a day, it seemed very scary. 

 

Now, although the parameters have significantly changed, there remain many unknowns. And unknown unknowns. And the situation has become very concerning in new ways.

 

Thank you for asking, even if you are unhappy with this reply,  so  I could clarify my current feelings on this matter.  

Pperhaps it will interest someone,  though probably not you
 

As always, I reserve the right to change my opinion  in future.  

 

[Corraleno]

6 hours ago, crazyforlatin said:

What's the maximum time between first and second shots that you would feel comfortable? 

My DS's 2nd shot was originally scheduled for finals week, and he rescheduled it for the following week, but I would have been comfortable with postponing it another 2-3 weeks if necessary. Based on data from the UK, the maximum gap I would be comfortable with would be 12 weeks, but I'd rather do it ASAP after finals were over.

[mommyoffive]

Did they already figure this out??

Covid-19 vaccine isn't linked to heart problems in young people -- but doctors still worry parents will be scared to vaccinate their children - CNN

[Corraleno]

30 minutes ago, mommyoffive said:

Did they already figure this out??

Covid-19 vaccine isn't linked to heart problems in young people -- but doctors still worry parents will be scared to vaccinate their children - CNN

The fact that the rate in vaxxed kids was no higher than the background rate in unvaxxed kids was part of the announcement from the very beginning, but of course antivaxxers and a large swath of the media left out that part. 

[Roadrunner]

16 hours ago, crazyforlatin said:

What's the maximum time between first and second shots that you would feel comfortable? 

I need to wait until the AP exam and other events are over. All of Dd's friends have had barely a reaction from the second shot, but I still prefer to wait. 

Dd has food allergies, but she didn't react to the first shot, so I know she's not allergic to the vaccine. Is that safe to conclude? I thought I read that the second dose is more potent.

I would schedule it after the exams. Or at least 4-5 days before. 
My DS had no reaction to a second shot either, other than he got home from a clinic and slept the rest of the day. He was back to normal the next day. 

[whitestavern]

9 hours ago, mommyoffive said:

Did they already figure this out??

Covid-19 vaccine isn't linked to heart problems in young people -- but doctors still worry parents will be scared to vaccinate their children - CNN

Idk, CT has had at least 18 cases recently. As of yesterday, they had not ruled out if it is vaccine related.

https://www.nbcconnecticut.com/news/coronavirus/covid-vaccine/mom-of-conn-teen-speaks-after-son-suffers-heart-condition-days-after-covid-19-vaccine/2495057/

[Katy]

4 minutes ago, whitestavern said:

Idk, CT has had at least 18 cases recently. As of yesterday, they had not ruled out if it is vaccine related.

https://www.nbcconnecticut.com/news/coronavirus/covid-vaccine/mom-of-conn-teen-speaks-after-son-suffers-heart-condition-days-after-covid-19-vaccine/2495057/

Almost anything can cause myocarditis.  A virus, a vaccine, any kind of immune reaction. What we know so far from younger adults in the military is the vaccine related myocarditis resolves itself in less than a month.  People are much more likely to get myocarditis from Covid, and it is much more likely to cause damage that lasts longer than a month.  My kid with cardiac issues will be much less likely to have additional problems with the vaccine than with catching the virus. 

[Not_a_Number]

9 hours ago, mommyoffive said:

Did they already figure this out??

Covid-19 vaccine isn't linked to heart problems in young people -- but doctors still worry parents will be scared to vaccinate their children - CNN

I'd guess they are being soothing at the moment. I hope they are still looking into behind the scenes. 

[stripe]

My younger teen has had a stronger reaction to the first shot than my older teen, whose experience was like mine: a sore arm after the first shot, positively exhausted for one day after the second. My younger teen was tired and had nausea for several days. However, I am happy that we were able to find an alternative to the harried pharmacies I had to resort to for mine and the older teen.

[Penelope]

2 hours ago, Katy said:

Almost anything can cause myocarditis.  A virus, a vaccine, any kind of immune reaction. What we know so far from younger adults in the military is the vaccine related myocarditis resolves itself in less than a month.  People are much more likely to get myocarditis from Covid, and it is much more likely to cause damage that lasts longer than a month.  My kid with cardiac issues will be much less likely to have additional problems with the vaccine than with catching the virus. 

The Covid myocarditis thing is a myth that grew out of some shoddy science and bad reporting. https://www.statnews.com/2021/05/14/setting-the-record-straight-there-is-no-covid-heart/
 

While it still occurs rarely, we don’t know yet whether Covid or the vaccine will be most associated with myocarditis in this age group. It is still being investigated. 
 

No reason to freak out, but also no reason to blow it off. Saying it resolves, okay, but the possibility of heart muscle damage that gives you some time in the ICU and limits your exercise for months is not something to downplay in a young person. There were two deaths in Israel.

There was a report on Israeli news that their ministry of health is estimating the rate is at 1 in 3,000-6,000.

They are considering advising only one dose for age 12-15.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/to-beat-side-effects-israel-considers-giving-teens-just-1-covid-vaccine-dose/

Quote

But sources familiar with vaccination policymaking told The Times of Israel that a switch to a one-shot protocol is likely, as the cases of myocarditis are believed to have occurred almost exclusively after young people received their second vaccine dose.

The idea was under discussion at a forum of senior health officials and doctors, chaired by the Health Ministry, which took place on Monday evening. Other possibilities raised at the meeting were delaying teen vaccination until more data on myocarditis is received, and continuing with a two-shot protocol as planned.
 

 

Quote

Hebrew University epidemiologist Prof. Hagai Levine told The Times of Israel he thinks the one-dose regimen is worth “serious discussion.”

He supports vaccine rollout for teenagers, but stressed that the details of how it should be dosed should be decided carefully. In view of Israel’s very low coronavirus rates, with just 22 new cases diagnosed on Tuesday, he believes that inoculating teenagers is not “urgent” and there is no need for the government to rush to a decision.

“There is currently no urgency in vaccinating young people in Israel against coronavirus, due to fact that risk [from the virus] is currently relatively low and also due to the fact that the vaccinating the young, though it can contribute to the general population’s immunity level, isn’t expected to change it significantly,” said Levine.

Immunologist Prof. Cyrille Cohen, a member of the Health Ministry Advisory Committee on Vaccines, told The Times of Israel that a one-dose approach may have advantages, but could also have downsides.

“The immunity of young people is normally stronger than others, and a one-dose policy provides us with a reasonable therapeutic window,” he said. “So in a situation in which the cases are low in Israel, the level of protection with one dose is desirable, and we limit the possibility of side effects, at least, until we know more about these pathologies.”

 

Edited May 26, 2021 by Penelope

[Penelope]

I note again, as with JNJ, that the US seems to be the last to acknowledge these things, only after several other countries are announcing they are looking into an issue. I find this concerning, and don’t know whether it is problems with our reporting system (such as delays), or the people responsible for monitoring being limited and overstretched, or what. 
 

But I am taking that into consideration when I hear reporting about what our officials say about events like these, and how long we might need to wait to make sure a problem is noticed. 
 

Some of it here might be though, that as of a few weeks ago, most of the teens vaccinated in the US had not even had their second dose yet. And then there is a delay for symptoms and reporting. It sounds like Israel was ahead of us in vaccinating young people.

[KSera]

1 hour ago, Penelope said:

the US seems to be the last to acknowledge these things, only after several other countries are announcing they are looking into an issue. I find this concerning, and don’t know whether it is problems with our reporting system (such as delays), or the people responsible for monitoring being limited and overstretched, or what. 

It seems to me in this case, the US was really quick to acknowledge this, even despite the fact that at this point they are not seeing the rate being greater than background rate. Now that it’s on the radar, it will be getting even greater scrutiny, and if there turns out to be any connection, I expect it will be seen.

[Penelope]

17 minutes ago, KSera said:

It seems to me in this case, the US was really quick to acknowledge this, even despite the fact that at this point they are not seeing the rate being greater than background rate. Now that it’s on the radar, it will be getting even greater scrutiny, and if there turns out to be any connection, I expect it will be seen.

 
yes, but is that only because there was so much press about it from elsewhere first? As with the clotting issue, where the EU, that was not even giving the JNJ vaccine yet, noticed the issue and reported on it first. Not saying US officials would never have done anything, but just that it seems slow. Or maybe it’s just a slight difference in philosophy, where US is more cautious about saying something that might affect vaccination rates. 
 

People in the US military noticed it last month. What I saw from Israel said that in their country, they think so far it looks higher than background rate.
 

But I do note that we haven’t had as many second doses here. 

Edited May 26, 2021 by Penelope

[kokotg]

12 minutes ago, Penelope said:

 

 

People in the US military noticed it last month. What I saw from Israel said that in their country, they think so far it looks higher than background rate.
 

But I do note that we haven’t had as many second doses here. 

If 1 in 3000-6000 is higher than the background rate, then wouldn't the 1ish% post covid that the studies cited in the myocarditis myth link you posted be WAY higher than the background rate? 

[Penelope]

17 minutes ago, kokotg said:

If 1 in 3000-6000 is higher than the background rate, then wouldn't the 1ish% post covid that the studies cited in the myocarditis myth link you posted be WAY higher than the background rate? 

So you’re picking out mention of one study that cited 1%, which is based only on MRI of student athletes who had mild or asymptomatic infection. And cardiologists who have been speaking about this note we don’t know the significance of something that only shows up because you did a test, with no symptoms. If you read the whole article, many other, larger, studies showed rates much lower than that.

The vaccine cases are young men who had symptoms and signs of myocarditis within a few days after the second dose. They were only evaluated because they were ill.

Now if you want to do a study where you do MRIs of a bunch of teens and twenties, after the second dose of vaccine and see what shows up, who knows, maybe you would find more “myocarditis,”, or maybe not, but that is what you would have to do to compare rates of that particular 1% result.

Edited May 26, 2021 by Penelope

[Not_a_Number]

7 minutes ago, Penelope said:

Now if you want to do a study where you do MRIs of a bunch of teens and twenties, after the second dose of vaccine and see what shows up, who knows, maybe you would find more “myocarditis,”, or maybe not, but that is what you would have to do to compare rates of that particular 1% result.

I agree with you there. 

 

2 hours ago, Penelope said:

The Covid myocarditis thing is a myth that grew out of some shoddy science and bad reporting. https://www.statnews.com/2021/05/14/setting-the-record-straight-there-is-no-covid-heart/

Oh, thanks for linking that. I've been wondering what happened to the heart stuff. The German study did look overblown, but I thought there was at least SOME signal there... apparently not. Interesting. 

[kokotg]

14 minutes ago, Penelope said:

So you’re picking out mention of one study that cited 1% is based only on MRI of student athletes who had mild or asymptomatic infection. And cardiologists who have been speaking about this note we don’t know the significance of something that only shows up because you did a test, with no symptoms. If you read the whole article, many other studies showed rates much lower than that.

The vaccine cases are young men who had symptoms and signs of myocarditis within a few days after the second dose. They were only evaluated because they were ill.

Now if you want to do a study where you do MRIs of a bunch of teens and twenties, after the second dose of vaccine and see what shows up, who knows, maybe you would find more “myocarditis,”, or maybe not, but that is what you would have to do to compare rates of that particular 1% result.

There were a couple of others that cited rates "under 1%" too....it would have to be an awful lot under 1% to be as low as 1 out of 3000. You said they're estimating a rate of 1 in 3000 to 6000 in Israel--not that that's the rate they're finding based on testing people with symptoms (I don't know how they're estimating it--I didn't see anything about the 1 in 3000 to 6000 in the link you posted, but I might have missed it). I'm all for investigating all possible side effects of the vaccine; I'm just saying that it sounds like it's likely quite a bit lower as a side effect of the vaccine than as a side effect of covid, and I'm noting that if 1 in 3000 to 6000 is indeed higher than the background rate and cause for concern, then it would seem to be overstating things to say that the cases we're seeing after covid AREN'T a cause for concern, even if they were overstated at first. One of the other studies said 21 out of 3000, which would be 10 to 20 times higher than the what you say they're estimating in Israel. ETA: if the 1 in 3000 is, in fact, what they're finding by testing people who present with symptoms, then, yes, that would be very different from a study where they test a large group of people who had had covid.

Edited May 26, 2021 by kokotg

[JennyD]

49 minutes ago, Penelope said:

What I saw from Israel said that in their country, they think so far it looks higher than background rate.

Israel is considering delaying second doses for 12-15yos until they can study this issue a bit more, BUT against a backdrop of an extremely low infection rate.

FWIW, the country has dropped pretty much all corona restrictions, although I believe they're not yet letting in many -- any? -- international visitors.  

Edited May 26, 2021 by JennyD

[Not_a_Number]

2 minutes ago, kokotg said:

There were a couple of others that cited rates "under 1%" too....it would have to be an awful lot under 1% to be as low as 1 out of 3000. You said they're estimating a rate of 1 in 3000 to 6000 in Israel--not that that's the rate they're finding based on testing people with symptoms (I don't know how they're estimating it--I didn't see anything about the 1 in 3000 to 6000 in the link you posted, but I might have missed it). I'm all for investigating all possible side effects of the vaccine; I'm just saying that it sounds like it's likely quite a bit lower as a side effect of the vaccine than as a side effect of covid, and I'm noting that if 1 in 3000 to 6000 is indeed higher than the background rate and cause for concern, then it would seem to be overstating things to say that the cases we're seeing after covid AREN'T a cause for concern, even if they were overstated at first. One of the other studies said 21 out of 3000, which would be 10 to 20 times higher than the what you say they're estimating in Israel.

A lot of the "under 1%" studies had no controls, though. So it's not clear they are worth much. 

[kokotg]

5 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

A lot of the "under 1%" studies had no controls, though. So it's not clear they are worth much. 

yeah, I would need to know more about the 1 in 3000 to 1 in 6000 estimate and where that comes from. In the Times of Israel article linked to, I'm seeing 60 cases...and that's out of over 5 million fully vaccinated. 

[Penelope]

1 minute ago, kokotg said:

There were a couple of others that cited rates "under 1%" too....it would have to be an awful lot under 1% to be as low as 1 out of 3000. You said they're estimating a rate of 1 in 3000 to 6000 in Israel--not that that's the rate they're finding based on testing people with symptoms (I don't know how they're estimating it--I didn't see anything about the 1 in 3000 to 6000 in the link you posted, but I might have missed it). I'm all for investigating all possible side effects of the vaccine; I'm just saying that it sounds like it's likely quite a bit lower as a side effect of the vaccine than as a side effect of covid, and I'm noting that if 1 in 3000 to 6000 is indeed higher than the background rate and cause for concern, then it would seem to be overstating things to say that the cases we're seeing after covid AREN'T a cause for concern, even if they were overstated at first. One of the other studies said 21 out of 3000, which would be 10 to 20 times higher than the what you say they're estimating in Israel.

I’m not married to the idea that the vaccine is for sure doing something bad, or that if it is, it is higher than what happens with Covid. Maybe it isn’t. Maybe it turns out to be a wash, but we still vaccinate for lots of other reasons. 

All I think about it is that I don’t know, and I am glad they are taking all of it seriously and in balance so that we can all have information to make decisions. The chance of contracting Covid is also lower all the time, so I don’t think there is as much of a rush to finish two doses while they are still figuring it out. Others will see it differently, have children at higher risk, or are planning lots of travel, and might think it’s imprudent to think about some potential, still unclear side effect for even a second. 

The rate that I saw for Israel was reported as the rate of hospitalized for myocarditis after vaccines. (But waiting to see what numbers come out in writing). They have symptoms and signs and go to the doctor or hospital. 

[Amy Gen]

Apologies in advance if this is not the appropriate place to ask this. 
 

My 14 year old is the last of her friend group to get vaccinated. Yesterday, I read that Moderna might be available to over 12 year olds soon. I asked my pharmacist if I should just wait until next month and see if I can get her a Moderna shot instead of Pfizer. 
 

He told me that they are so similar, and side effects are so individual that the best vaccine is the first one you can get. So I got her an appointment to get her first shot at noon on Saturday. As soon as I got home, I realized she will be gone all day Saturday and I had to call and cancel. 
 

Dd said she is fine getting it whenever. I showed her how to sign up online. Does anyone think there is enough of a difference between the vaccines to choose one over the other? 

[Penelope]

4 minutes ago, kokotg said:

yeah, I would need to know more about the 1 in 3000 to 1 in 6000 estimate and where that comes from. In the Times of Israel article linked to, I'm seeing 60 cases...and that's out of over 5 million fully vaccinated. 

It was reported by Israeli public broadcasting and retweeted a bunch. 
I don’t know the details so we’ll see.

Whatever the number, the denominator used for the rate wouldn’t be five million, it is whatever number of people in the relevant age group are a week or more past the second dose, with cases probably separated further by gender. 

[HeartString]

1 minute ago, Amy Gen said:

Apologies in advance if this is not the appropriate place to ask this. 
 

My 14 year old is the last of her friend group to get vaccinated. Yesterday, I read that Moderna might be available to over 12 year olds soon. I asked my pharmacist if I should just wait until next month and see if I can get her a Moderna shot instead of Pfizer. 
 

He told me that they are so similar, and side effects are so individual that the best vaccine is the first one you can get. So I got her an appointment to get her first shot at noon on Saturday. As soon as I got home, I realized she will be gone all day Saturday and I had to call and cancel. 
 

Dd said she is fine getting it whenever. I showed her how to sign up online. Does anyone think there is enough of a difference between the vaccines to choose one over the other? 

I would prefer for my kids to get the Pfizer, its been shown to have less incidents of  side effects like feeling cruddy for a day or so.  My husband and I got the Moderna and felt cruddy for about a day, my oldest got the Pfizer and was fine.  His only only effect was irritation at me for asking him how he felt.  
Why are you preferring the Moderna? 

[Syllieann]

If the myocarditis is just background noise, it doesn't make sense for them to be clustered around the second doses.  If not caused by the vaccine one would expect them to be more or less evenly distributed after first and second dose.  

 

@Amy Gen I would try for Pfizer because my anecdata heavily supports the idea that Pfizer comes with fewer side effects than Moderna.  In addition, and perhaps more importantly, moderna only has the sample size of the trial for that age group when they release.  Pfizer has probably gone into more than a million 12-15 year old arms at this point.

[kokotg]

16 minutes ago, Penelope said:

It was reported by Israeli public broadcasting and retweeted a bunch. 
I don’t know the details so we’ll see.

Whatever the number, the denominator used for the rate wouldn’t be five million, it is whatever number of people in the relevant age group are a week or more past the second dose, with cases probably separated further by gender. 

I think the Times of Israel article was saying 60 for all age groups--actually, looking at it again, it's 60 who were treated and released and then 2 who died: a 22 yo and a 35 yo. so while it mentions teens at the beginning, it seems to be giving the total number of people reporting myocarditis. 

Quote

In Israel, an April Health Ministry report into the side effects of the Pfizer-BioNtech vaccine raised concerns of a possible link between the second shot and several dozen cases of myocarditis.

The report said that 60 myocarditis patients were treated and released from the hospital in good condition. Two of the patients, who were reportedly healthy until receiving the vaccination, including a 22-year-old woman and a 35-year-old man, died.

 

Edited May 26, 2021 by kokotg

[Not_a_Number]

22 minutes ago, Amy Gen said:

Apologies in advance if this is not the appropriate place to ask this. 
 

My 14 year old is the last of her friend group to get vaccinated. Yesterday, I read that Moderna might be available to over 12 year olds soon. I asked my pharmacist if I should just wait until next month and see if I can get her a Moderna shot instead of Pfizer. 
 

He told me that they are so similar, and side effects are so individual that the best vaccine is the first one you can get. So I got her an appointment to get her first shot at noon on Saturday. As soon as I got home, I realized she will be gone all day Saturday and I had to call and cancel. 
 

Dd said she is fine getting it whenever. I showed her how to sign up online. Does anyone think there is enough of a difference between the vaccines to choose one over the other? 

I had the impression Moderna has more side effects due to the larger dose.

[SoCal_Bear]

26 minutes ago, Amy Gen said:

Apologies in advance if this is not the appropriate place to ask this. 
 

My 14 year old is the last of her friend group to get vaccinated. Yesterday, I read that Moderna might be available to over 12 year olds soon. I asked my pharmacist if I should just wait until next month and see if I can get her a Moderna shot instead of Pfizer. 
 

He told me that they are so similar, and side effects are so individual that the best vaccine is the first one you can get. So I got her an appointment to get her first shot at noon on Saturday. As soon as I got home, I realized she will be gone all day Saturday and I had to call and cancel. 
 

Dd said she is fine getting it whenever. I showed her how to sign up online. Does anyone think there is enough of a difference between the vaccines to choose one over the other? 

I chose Pfizer for my family including my 12yo because the reported side effects are less severe.

[Amy Gen]

4 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

I had the impression Moderna has more side effects due to the larger dose.

Ok. Good to know. The adults in my family all had Moderna and since none of us had side effects, I’m probably just biased with no cause. 

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, Amy Gen said:

Ok. Good to know. The adults in my family all had Moderna and since none of us had side effects, I’m probably just biased with no cause. 

I can link you the poll on here 🙂. The trial data showed it, too.

[mommyoffive]

29 minutes ago, Amy Gen said:

Apologies in advance if this is not the appropriate place to ask this. 
 

My 14 year old is the last of her friend group to get vaccinated. Yesterday, I read that Moderna might be available to over 12 year olds soon. I asked my pharmacist if I should just wait until next month and see if I can get her a Moderna shot instead of Pfizer. 
 

He told me that they are so similar, and side effects are so individual that the best vaccine is the first one you can get. So I got her an appointment to get her first shot at noon on Saturday. As soon as I got home, I realized she will be gone all day Saturday and I had to call and cancel. 
 

Dd said she is fine getting it whenever. I showed her how to sign up online. Does anyone think there is enough of a difference between the vaccines to choose one over the other? 

When dh and I got our shot it was get the first that you can get.  The appointments were hard to get at that point.  A month later you could have your pick.  I did prefer Pfizer at the time because there seemed to be less side effects and a lot of positive news about it with the variants and everything. 

We had no side effects other than sore arm with Moderna.  I would pick Pfizer for them based on it is something you can get now.  I don't know when Moderna is going be available for kids.  Could be soon and could be a month or more.  Also a lot more kids have gotten it at this point.

[SKL]

Agreeing that Pfizer was my first choice because I have heard there are fewer / milder known side effects.  Also, Pfizer had already been in use among people as young as 16, which is more relevant to my kids' risks than age 18.  If Moderna had become available to my kids first, I would have had a harder time deciding.

 

[kokotg]

My thinking is that the main advantage of pfizer is fewer side effects (though none of us in my family had significant side effects from either); the main advantage of moderna is that it's the Dolly Parton shot. 

[SKL]

Re potential vax problems still under investigation - I am not super comforted by the reports that the incidence is the same as that in the general population.  Here's why:

• Incidence in the general population of children reflects cases that have arisen over 18 years.  But what we have from vaxed kids is cases arising within a very short time period after the vax.  For example, let's say 8% of US children have been diagnosed with migraines over their lifetimes.  Then let's say 8% of vaxed US children have reported migraines as an after-effect of the vax.  I don't see them as the same.
• If they are asking people about "new" symptoms (and shouldn't they be?), then are these 8% additive (in full or in part) to the 8% already experiencing migraines?  If so, then over time, won't the % of kids having migraines be the original 8% plus those for whom it is a "new" aftereffect of the vax?
• Even if these are kids who have had this condition and just didn't know it until the vax triggered symptoms, I would still consider that a risk factor.

I'm not saying this is or isn't a real problem, but I hope the researchers aren't blowing it off in an effort to speed up vaccinations.  That's how trust has been and will be lost.

[SeaConquest]

On 5/23/2021 at 12:36 PM, calbear said:

This is a general statement non-specific to Covid. I never would have thought I would ever have thought that about the homeschooling world in all my years homeschooling until this year. It's disconcerting and sad. It's coupled with realizing that there are things I can't unsee after this year which has impacted and changed relationships and community. I'm not the only one in this boat. 

The homeschooling community here is absorbing a lot more anti-vaxxers because this year, a lot of MEs (medical exemptions) have been revoked...we are getting a flood of newbies who don't necessarily want to be homeschooling. That actually changes the dynamics of the homeschooling community as well. People aren't necessarily vested in creating communities or a vision for homeschooling.

 

 

This has been going on for years in the charter homeschooling world, which is why I have been so outspoken about it. These charter homeschoolers don't give a hoot about charters or homeschooling, they are only running to charter schools because of the vax mandates and gravy train. As soon as either the gravy train dries up or the vax mandates tighten up for charter homeschoolers, they will bail, as we are now starting to see.  As they flee the charters, the PSA homeschoolers are going to have to own the crazy. Frankly, IMO, the whole anti-science lot of them makes us all look like Q-nuts.  

Edited May 26, 2021 by SeaConquest

[Katy]

4 hours ago, Penelope said:

The Covid myocarditis thing is a myth that grew out of some shoddy science and bad reporting. https://www.statnews.com/2021/05/14/setting-the-record-straight-there-is-no-covid-heart/
 

While it still occurs rarely, we don’t know yet whether Covid or the vaccine will be most associated with myocarditis in this age group. It is still being investigated. 
 

No reason to freak out, but also no reason to blow it off. Saying it resolves, okay, but the possibility of heart muscle damage that gives you some time in the ICU and limits your exercise for months is not something to downplay in a young person. There were two deaths in Israel.

There was a report on Israeli news that their ministry of health is estimating the rate is at 1 in 3,000-6,000.

They are considering advising only one dose for age 12-15.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/to-beat-side-effects-israel-considers-giving-teens-just-1-covid-vaccine-dose/

 

I don't know where you got the idea that covid doesn't cause myocarditis in some people.  It does.  I trust my child's cardiologist and pediatrician.

[Not_a_Number]

5 minutes ago, Katy said:

I don't know where you got the idea that covid doesn't cause myocarditis in some people.  It does.  I trust my child's cardiologist and pediatrician.

I think she got the idea from the linked articles. It sounds like they aren’t finding that in the latest data... or at least they aren’t finding much reason for alarm above other viruses.

[Katy]

Just now, Not_a_Number said:

I think she got the idea from the linked articles. It sounds like they aren’t finding that in the latest data... or at least they aren’t finding much reason for alarm above other viruses.

The military released supporting information last week.

[kokotg]

This states the numbers in Israel a little more clearly than the other article, I think. It is 62 identified cases out of more than 5 million vaccinated--not just teens: https://www.health.com/condition/infectious-diseases/coronavirus/pfizer-vaccine-heart-inflammation-myocarditis

Quote

Israel's pandemic response coordinator, Nachman Ash, told Reuters on April 25 that a preliminary study found "tens of incidents" of myocarditis, a type of inflammation of the heart. Myocarditis was identified in 62 of the more than 5 million people in Israel who had received the Pfizer vaccine, usually after their second dose. The majority of patients are mostly men.

 

 

[Penelope]

56 minutes ago, SKL said:

Re potential vax problems still under investigation - I am not super comforted by the reports that the incidence is the same as that in the general population.  Here's why:

• Incidence in the general population of children reflects cases that have arisen over 18 years.  But what we have from vaxed kids is cases arising within a very short time period after the vax.  For example, let's say 8% of US children have been diagnosed with migraines over their lifetimes.  Then let's say 8% of vaxed US children have reported migraines as an after-effect of the vax.  I don't see them as the same.
• If they are asking people about "new" symptoms (and shouldn't they be?), then are these 8% additive (in full or in part) to the 8% already experiencing migraines?  If so, then over time, won't the % of kids having migraines be the original 8% plus those for whom it is a "new" aftereffect of the vax?
• Even if these are kids who have had this condition and just didn't know it until the vax triggered symptoms, I would still consider that a risk factor.

I'm not saying this is or isn't a real problem, but I hope the researchers aren't blowing it off in an effort to speed up vaccinations.  That's how trust has been and will be lost.

Well, the people that analyze these things do, I trust, consider these things when crunching the numbers. One would hope. Maybe that is one of the reasons these things take time. They may not have perfect numbers for normal rates of things in every age group and for a certain time period. 
 

And it has been pointed out that there could be some other virus involved, something seasonal. You could also wonder whether the problem is more likely to occur if you get a vaccine at the time of a recent Covid infection. Maybe normal immune response + both doses is too much stimulation for a young person. 

36 minutes ago, Katy said:

I don't know where you got the idea that covid doesn't cause myocarditis in some people.  It does.  I trust my child's cardiologist and pediatrician.

I didn’t say it doesn’t occur in some people. I said it does occur, rarely. 

Maybe you meant that it seems to occur at about the same rate as it does after other viruses, but I thought you meant something more than that. 

The article is a response to the idea that started early on, I think based on early MRI data of sicker patients, that it happened in a large percentage of people with Covid, and that it could be a problem even for young athletes with mild or asymptomatic infection. This was part of the reason for caution and delays restarting certain sports, and for those pediatric guidelines that said every child should be screened for problems after Covid; initially there were some that suggested EKG’s for children with very mild cases of Covid. Even though the idea was counterbalanced with other studies, the idea that it was a fairly common problem persisted somewhat in the public space. 

If a child already has a cardiologist, that is a different level of consideration. I, too, would have a higher level of concern for a child with a pre-existing cardiac issue.
 

 

Edited May 26, 2021 by Penelope