Sad About Chris Chistie

[hippiemamato3]

I'm not really sure what's sad. He has mild symptoms and checked himself into the hospita, something most Americans wouldn't be allowed to do. He chose not to wear a mask...where's the sad part? He's not a victim.

[OH_Homeschooler]

2 minutes ago, fifiruth said:

I know four nurses, most with experience treating both H1N1 patients 10 years ago, and now SARs-CoV-2 patients now, tell me that Covid19 presents as a flu with pneumonia complications. That if there wasn’t a test for this, they would have all considered it a severe strain of flu. 

Sad that health professionals aren't required to keep up on the latest research.

[OH_Homeschooler]

Just now, fifiruth said:

You seriously don’t recognize the vitriol coming from your side and the MSM?  

Not to answer for the other poster, but "our side" is really sick of seeing needless illness and death. If that isn't worth a bit of vitriol, I don't know what is.

[OH_Homeschooler]

Just now, fifiruth said:

They are very up on science! What an insulting thing to say.

They said it presents as a severe flu. How many covid patients have you personally taken care of in a hospital setting?

None, I am not a health professional. I do however recognize the dangers of believing in anecdotal evidence rather than the results of careful, unbiased research protocols.

[SanDiegoMom]

1 minute ago, fifiruth said:

You seriously don’t recognize the vitriol coming from your side and the MSM?  

I don't read a lot of MSM, but I did watch what happened at the debate when the entire set of guests came in and took off their masks, directly flouting the rules of the debate as well as state guidelines for indoor events.  I found that extremely difficult to understand in any non-judgemental way.  Also the direct attacks from the president himself on the other candidate's mask wearing. So I guess the question goes both ways.

 

[OH_Homeschooler]

1 minute ago, fifiruth said:

Are you always this sick of all the deaths from all of the diseases we deal with? The conditions and illnesses that stopped being diagnosed and treated, worldwide, because of the “non-essential” restrictions put in place do to inaccurate covid19 death projections? 

I understand that a lot of illness and death is inevitable. So when someone dies of natural causes for example, it doesn't piss me off, it makes me sad. When someone dies because someone else refuses to wear a mask (which is really the best advice we have AT THIS MOMENT), that does. See the difference?

And I'm sorry if you've been uniformed by Fox News but other diseases continue to be diagnosed and treated. Hence, the continued advice to get a flu shot every year.

[Pen]

1 hour ago, Scarlett said:

My sister who lives in Houston has a similar mindset.  Masks don’t work, we have to live our lives, I won’t live in fear.....all that stuff.  For instance she said, ‘what good does it do to wear a mask at the store when I am touching the same keypad at checkout put that others are touching.’

 

Is keypad touching still happening there? 

In stores in cities I go to the machines were reset to not need to be touched. Customer inserts or swipes card, no button touching or signature required. 

 

[Scarlett]

4 minutes ago, Pen said:

 

Is keypad touching still happening there? 

In stores in cities I go to the machines were reset to not need to be touched. Customer inserts or swipes card, no button touching or signature required. 

 

Yes, still happening at most places I am forced to go into.  For instance I have to go in Wal mart to purchase behind the counter allergy meds...and they make me sign that form about not using it to make meth.  And if I use my debit card I have to put I my pin if it is over a certain amount. When I use my works credit card I do not have to sign.  

Edited October 5, 2020 by Scarlett

[busymama7]

1 hour ago, Scarlett said:

My sister who lives in Houston has a similar mindset.  Masks don’t work, we have to live our lives, I won’t live in fear.....all that stuff.  For instance she said, ‘what good does it do to wear a mask at the store when I am touching the same keypad at checkout put that others are touching.’  I tried to explain to her that masks aren’t the ONLY line of defense.  That you then go to your car and before you even take off your mask or  drive off you slather you’re hands in sanitizer and you keep your hands away from your face.  And you stay out of the stores if possible.  And you avoid indoor events. Especially with a lot of people. 
 

She also compares it to the flu.  At this point anyone who is comparing it to the flu is not keeping up with death counts or science.  Or worse they think the death count is exaggerated. 
 

I do believe there are people who think we should all just not worry about it and let the chips fall where they may.  

Im dealing with this with my close contacts.   They absolutely think the death count is not accurate.  

There are a lot of people in my experience who think the death counts have been messed with. I can't figure out who they think would do that since drs would get into a lot of trouble for lying on vital records. 

I actually called someone on it yesterday when they said the lines about only people with pre existing conditions are at risk. I said "do you not realize that I am one of those? And lots of other people you love?". No good response just some muttering about most people recovering fine. 

One of my very close friends believes it's been way over blown.  I questioned her on the number of deaths in just six months not being even close to a flu season and she said those numbers are lies. No where near that many people have died and lots of deaths that aren't covid are being claimed as such.  I asked her if she understands what the excess deaths look like and why that is an accurate count of the effect of covid and she totally blew me off.  Like no that doesn't work either. This is totally overblown.  I just let it go as I'm not interested in arguing.  It's everywhere.  There are lots of people who just don't think this is serious.  I'm not sure what I would think to be honest if I didn't hang out here. 

 On the other hand, my family is not quarentining anymore.  We have resumed some masked, distanced activities because there just is no way we could handle 2-3 years of hanging out at home.  We all need some social interaction and I do think we will just have to live with this disease. I am hopeful that treatments have improved at least somewhat.   We are careful because we don't want it but we also are taking some risk for our mental health.  

[Scarlett]

2 minutes ago, busymama7 said:

Im dealing with this with my close contacts.   They absolutely think the death count is not accurate.  

There are a lot of people in my experience who think the death counts have been messed with. I can't figure out who they think would do that since drs would get into a lot of trouble for lying on vital records. 

I actually called someone on it yesterday when they said the lines about only people with pre existing conditions are at risk. I said "do you not realize that I am one of those? And lots of other people you love?". No good response just some muttering about most people recovering fine. 

One of my very close friends believes it's been way over blown.  I questioned her on the number of deaths in just six months not being even close to a flu season and she said those numbers are lies. No where near that many people have died and lots of deaths that aren't covid are being claimed as such.  I asked her if she understands what the excess deaths look like and why that is an accurate count of the effect of covid and she totally blew me off.  Like no that doesn't work either. This is totally overblown.  I just let it go as I'm not interested in arguing.  It's everywhere.  There are lots of people who just don't think this is serious.  I'm not sure what I would think to be honest if I didn't hang out here. 

 On the other hand, my family is not quarentining anymore.  We have resumed some masked, distanced activities because there just is no way we could handle 2-3 years of hanging out at home.  We all need some social interaction and I do think we will just have to live with this disease. I am hopeful that treatments have improved at least somewhat.   We are careful because we don't want it but we also are taking some risk for our mental health.  

Us too. Like the camping trip we have planned. 11 of us total spending our time outside. 

[Pen]

48 minutes ago, fifiruth said:

You seriously don’t recognize the vitriol coming from your side and the MSM?  

 

I think your understanding of masks was off base.

But I totally agree with you that there is massive unwarranted vitriol from MSM and tbh living in an area with both conservative and progressive-liberal persons, IME is that it is much more from the latter. As well, there is substantial vitriol and condescension attitude from the urban liberals toward the rural farmers and loggers and resentment back again that it is the rural farmers and fishers and packers and others who help to provide the essential basics and truckers who get the basics upon which life depends to the urban areas, and don’t have the luxury of calling it in via Zoom — and for whom the large numbers of hours needed may render masks largely ineffective and at a flip side of it being extremely hard to work effectively for long hours at physically strenuous jobs while masked. 

Farmers can be very intelligent.  

Even if they are not wearing a mask. And to them a “message” from non masked leadership may be solidarity with their plight. 

There are kids from our local school who were they urbanites would no doubt be heading to college, but instead will be taking over their family small farm or joining the family trade business. 

 

[ETA: Here’s a classical history professor/farmer talking about some of these issues — 

Warning - It is “political” but it also shows some intelligence and nuanced thinking possible which may not tend to be there in MSM soundbites.  If too political I will remove it. ]

 

 

Edited October 5, 2020 by Pen

[Not_a_Number]

41 minutes ago, fifiruth said:

They are very up on science! What an insulting thing to say.

They said it presents as a severe flu. How many covid patients have you personally taken care of in a hospital setting?

None. 

But I think @TCBhas taken care of more. Maybe @Medicmom2.0 as well. There are some others on here, but I don't remember exactly who. 

There's also a "Personal Covid Experiences" thread, which can tell you how different people experience their symptoms. It has a wide range of experiences listed. You might want to check it out 🙂 . 

[Spy Car]

1 hour ago, fifiruth said:

Get outside of your bubble, folks.

No thanks. I prefer to live.

Bill

[TCB]

1 hour ago, fifiruth said:

I know four nurses, most with experience treating both H1N1 patients 10 years ago, and now SARs-CoV-2 patients now, tell me that Covid19 presents as a flu with pneumonia complications. That if there wasn’t a test for this, they would have all considered it a severe strain of flu. 

Well I too am a nurse and I just spent the weekend looking after Covid patients in an ICU. H1N1 was bad but there was a vaccine available very early on in the season. Based on my experience it sounds as though they are somewhat trying to downplay Covid. Do they work in ICU?

[Guest]

52 minutes ago, Pen said:

 

Is keypad touching still happening there? 

In stores in cities I go to the machines were reset to not need to be touched. Customer inserts or swipes card, no button touching or signature required. 

 

Where I live, it varies. Some stores were ready with Tap-to-pay machines before or at the early part of the pandemic, while other stores have not advanced their machines and you do still have to touch at least briefly. However, I have a sanitizer hangng from my purse and I use it immediately after any machine-touching. 

[Pen]

1 hour ago, fifiruth said:

I know four nurses, most with experience treating both H1N1 patients 10 years ago, and now SARs-CoV-2 patients now, tell me that Covid19 presents as a flu with pneumonia complications. That if there wasn’t a test for this, they would have all considered it a severe strain of flu. 

 

I know quite a few people in medicine and it seems like they differ in how they see the situation. A dermatologist who only has seen weird dermatology manifestations sees it as usually fairly benign, a psychiatrist has been seeing it as a multitude of psychiatric manifestations—including for patients and their families, but also for the population as a whole due to the ripple effects of fear or isolation etc —while a few others see it as the worse contagious disease in their lifetimes, including even if they have worked abroad dealing with tropical diseases outbreaks. 

I do understand that you are in part meaning that it is the ability to isolate a virus and classify it that says it is a Coronavirus not an Influenza virus. And clearly there is truth to that. 

But I think even if we could not do that, it has such variability and protean manifestations that doctors would be saying “this isn’t just a flu” or something along those lines — similar to the NY area ICU doctor who was saying what he was seeing was not regular ARDS such as would follow on with a severe pneumonia, but rather a generalized hypoxia problem (a blood problem not just a lungs problem) several months ago. 

Edited October 5, 2020 by Pen

[Pen]

4 minutes ago, Quill said:

Where I live, it varies. Some stores were ready with Tap-to-pay machines before or at the early part of the pandemic, while other stores have not advanced their machines and you do still have to touch at least briefly. However, I have a sanitizer hangng from my purse and I use it immediately after any machine-touching. 

 

I haven’t had to touch anything but my own card since April-ish.

This is a good reminder of how different things can be in different areas. 

[chiguirre]

1 hour ago, Pen said:

 

Is keypad touching still happening there? 

In stores in cities I go to the machines were reset to not need to be touched. Customer inserts or swipes card, no button touching or signature required. 

 

In my personal experience in the Houston burbs, all our machines have done away with the touching. I haven't personally touched a screen in months except at the gas station. There, I use a glove.

[Spy Car]

Severe forms of the flu kill people.

Our grandparents and great-grandparents knew that. 

 

^^^ Wear your mask, scofflaw!

Bill

 

Edited October 5, 2020 by Spy Car

[Corraleno]

Kayleigh McEnany has now tested positive. 

[Pen]

1 minute ago, Plum said:

 

Do they mean by the time they see them, the patients have severe enough respiratory issues they presented as flu patients with complications from pneumonia? 

 

That was what I understood her to mean — and what some people have speculated may have happened with some early unrecognized cases before China revealed the new Coronavirus existence, that if they got to a hospital they often would have been classified as flu-like illnesses. 

[Not_a_Number]

I mean... one of its manifestations is definitely as a flu-like illness, so that makes sense. 

I mean, it'd have been a flu that killed more than 200,000 people this year and continued during the summer, so we'd have probably noticed, test or no test, lol. 

[Catwoman]

3 hours ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

I've noticed that most of the people I know who compare COVID to the flu don't get the flu shot. I find that interesting. 

Did any of you guys see the TikTok from KellyAnn Conway's daughter? Her daughter claims that her mother lied to the family about being COVID positive and then exposed everyone in the family to it. Of course, there are some pretty bad dynamics going on in that family right now. 

 

 

The dd claimed that KellyAnne was coughing all around the house and saying that masks were stupid. The dd also claimed that her mom was going to lie about her diagnosis until the dd ratted her out on social media.

KellyAnne sounds like Mother of the Year, doesn’t she? All politics aside, she knew she was “coughing all over the house,” yet she wouldn’t even self-quarantine or wear a mask at home to protect her own family. 

That is despicable.

 

Edited October 5, 2020 by Catwoman
Italics didn’t work properly!

[Corraleno]

3 minutes ago, Catwoman said:

 

The dd claimed that KellyAnne was coughing all around the house and saying that masks were stupid. The dd also claimed that her mom was going to lie about her diagnosis until the dd ratted her out on social media.

KellyAnne sounds like Mother of the Year, doesn’t she? All politics aside, she knew she was “coughing all over the house,” yet she wouldn’t even self-quarantine or wear a mask at home [i]to protect her own family.[/i] 

That is despicable.

 

Nor sure if it's been posted yet, but Claudia Conway is positive now too, and says she is feeling really sick. 

[math teacher]

We are still having to touch keypads here. Dollar General, Target, gas station, WalMart when I go in, which is rare. I haven't found any difference in keypads since covid began.

[Catwoman]

11 minutes ago, fifiruth said:

I do agree that the pres. should not have made a negative comment about Biden’s mask. I don’t like attacks from either side of the issue. 

But at some point, “attacks” feel necessary to try to snap people’s heads around and make them realize that they need to take proper precautions to help prevent or at least slow the progression of Covid. 

This isn’t about your politics or my politics; it’s about our HEALTH. I don’t want to get Covid from a Democrat and I don’t want to get it from a Republican. I just plain don’t want to get Covid. And I don’t want you to get it, either. 

So do I place the blame at the very top, where our leader and his own family blatantly and consistently disregard all of the public health recommendations from the CDC and from all over the world? Yes. Yes, I do. And I would place that exact same blame on him and his family no matter which party he represented. Because it’s not about party lines. It’s about public health. And it’s about our leadership taking a stand and strongly encouraging the people of our nation to do the right things.

[Catwoman]

2 minutes ago, fifiruth said:

One is in the ICU, one is a home health nurse as well as a VA nursing home nurse, one is a float nurse, and one, I’m not sure.

Their comments came in a couple of different discussions we were having were I was trying to understand what they were seeing first hand, and to get their opinions since it was hard to get good information. I did not sense that they were scared, but nor were they downplaying how fierce it was for some of their patients.  Now, they had enough staffing and PPE, so that may have made it less horrific for them than what other nurses have endured.

 

I’m glad to hear that your friends have the PPE they need to stay as safe as possible. It means so much to keep our health care workers confident that they can do their jobs without risking their health and the health of their own families.

[Catwoman]

7 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

Nor sure if it's been posted yet, but Claudia Conway is positive now too, and says she is feeling really sick. 

I saw that, too. Of course, being a teen with a flair for the dramatic, she said she’s “dying of Covid,” but the poor kid does seem really sick. I feel sorry for her. 😞 I hope someone is taking care of her.

[Not_a_Number]

7 minutes ago, fifiruth said:

I understand your point; however, I really, really do not agree that attacking people is okay. 

Our gov. resisted calls for a mask mandate until nearly the end of July. The vast majority, including me, wore them anyway. The mandate changed the whole feel of what we were trying to accomplish together as a community into a pretty nasty, punitive situation. I’m not happy about that. 

That's interesting, but I wouldn't assume everyone thinks a mandate makes something feel nasty. We've had a mandate since April and I very much approve, and it always does feel like the community pulling together in a nice way, mandate or not. 

Edited October 5, 2020 by Not_a_Number

[catz]

3 minutes ago, fifiruth said:

I understand your point; however, I really, really do not agree that attacking people is okay. 

Our gov. resisted calls for a mask mandate until nearly the end of July. The vast majority, including me, wore them anyway. The mandate changed the whole feel of what we were trying to accomplish together as a community into a pretty nasty, punitive situation. I’m not happy about that. 

Do you have sources showing that the general public are regularly being arrested/fined for straight up not masking? 

Because I'm in a state with a mask mandate and I'm not seeing that at all.  Businesses have to break mandates several times before they MAY be fined (which would be the result of many complaints, it's not like authorities are driving around looking for offenses) and the only people who have been arrested that I've seen are people who threaten violence after being asked to mask.   Poorly paid retail employees rarely to never enforce because they are afraid, but luckily we have decent compliance in our urban area. 

[Jean in Newcastle]

25 minutes ago, fifiruth said:

One is in the ICU, one is a home health nurse as well as a VA nursing home nurse, one is a float nurse, and one, I’m not sure.

Their comments came in a couple of different discussions we were having were I was trying to understand what they were seeing first hand, and to get their opinions since it was hard to get good information. I did not sense that they were scared, but nor were they downplaying how fierce it was for some of their patients.  Now, they had enough staffing and PPE, so that may have made it less horrific for them than what other nurses have endured.

 

The only nurse in that list who has the experience and education to really offer an opinion on COVID19 is the one in the ICU. 

[Catwoman]

16 minutes ago, fifiruth said:

I understand your point; however, I really, really do not agree that attacking people is okay. 

Our gov. resisted calls for a mask mandate until nearly the end of July. The vast majority, including me, wore them anyway. The mandate changed the whole feel of what we were trying to accomplish together as a community into a pretty nasty, punitive situation. I’m not happy about that. 

Personally, I think if the mask mandates had happened very early on in the pandemic, people would have reacted differently. If the president had gone on TV and social media and emphasized things like social distancing and face covering, I don’t think this would have turned so vicious and political. I truly believe that if he had taken the stance that this virus was serious, but that all Americans needed to work together to fight it, people would have done just that. I think he really dropped the ball on that, and his choice to turn the entire situation into a Republican vs. Democrat battle was a huge disservice to the American people.

I also think all of the initial mixed messaging was a complete disaster, and I was so annoyed right from the start when they originally said masks weren’t necessary. I know they walked it back and said the N95s were needed for health care workers, but they could have very easily suggested the kinds of face coverings people are wearing now, and it would have helped slow the spread of the virus. Would those face coverings have been perfect? No, of course not, but they would have helped, and at least that would have been something. 

But I do believe that most of the vitriol against mask wearing is coming straight from the top, and people are just parroting the attitude of the president. And I think that is so sad. We should all be working together, not against each other. Covid doesn’t discriminate between political parties.

Personally, I like the mask mandates because it makes me feel like we are all in this together, and it makes me happy to see people doing the right thing to protect each other. It makes me feel less alone in all of this.

Edited October 5, 2020 by Catwoman
Added something!

[Catwoman]

10 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

That's interesting, but I wouldn't assume everyone thinks a mandate makes something feel nasty. We've had a mandate since April and I very much approve, and it always does feel like the community pulling together in a nice way, mandate or not. 

I feel the same way! I suppose it feels different, though, for people with friends and family who are very resentful of the mask requirement. 

[Not_a_Number]

4 minutes ago, Catwoman said:

Personally, I think if the mask mandates had happened very early on in the pandemic, people would have reacted differently. If the president had gone on TV and social media and emphasized things like social distancing and face covering, I don’t think this would have turned so vicious and political. I truly believe that if he had taken the stance that this virus was serious, but that all Americans needed to work together to fight it, people would have done just that. I think he really dropped the ball on that, and his choice to turn the entire situation into a Republican vs. Democrat battle was a huge disservice to the American people.

I also think all of the initial mixed messaging was a complete disaster, and I was so annoyed right from the start when they originally said masks weren’t necessary. I know they walked it back and said the N95s were needed for health care workers, but they could have very easily suggested the kinds of face coverings people are wearing now, and it would have helped slow the spread of the virus. Would those face coverings have been perfect? No, of course not, but they would have helped, and at least that would have been something. 

But I do believe that most of the vitriol against mask wearing is coming straight from the top, and people are just parroting the attitude of the president. And I think that is so sad. We should all be working together, not against each other. Covid doesn’t discriminate between political parties.

Personally, I like the mask mandates because it makes me feel like we are all in this together, and it makes me happy to see people doing the right thing to protect each other. It makes me feel less alone in all of this.

I actually think that if this was what had been done, he would have had far higher approval ratings than now. Cuomo's ratings absolutely soared during the pandemic -- he was actually rather unpopular beforehand. 

Just from a strategic point of view, that would have been the right attitude to get reelected. 

[Frances]

14 minutes ago, fifiruth said:

I understand your point; however, I really, really do not agree that attacking people is okay. 

Our gov. resisted calls for a mask mandate until nearly the end of July. The vast majority, including me, wore them anyway. The mandate changed the whole feel of what we were trying to accomplish together as a community into a pretty nasty, punitive situation. I’m not happy about that. 

But some people likely weren’t masking when appropriate before the mandate, correct? Hence the need for a mandate. Certainly at least some were following the example and words of the president and other leaders and resisting masking? Maybe even mocking others for masking? I definitely saw a change in behavior here after our relatively late mask mandate. There was lots more compliance. 

[Not_a_Number]

1 minute ago, Catwoman said:

I feel the same way! I suppose it feels different, though, for people with friends and family who are very resentful of the mask requirement. 

Yeah, exactly. And then that comes back to the fact that masks are currently a political statement. I don't think one can undo that, frankly. 

[Catwoman]

2 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

I actually think that if this was what had been done, he would have had far higher approval ratings than now. Cuomo's ratings absolutely soared during the pandemic -- he was actually rather unpopular beforehand. 

Just from a strategic point of view, that would have been the right attitude to get reelected. 

I agree completely! 

I think it was a serious strategic error to decide to lie about the virus and continue to downplay it, even as the situation got worse and worse. 

Had the president made this into a national effort to battle the virus, I think people would have been united, rather than divided, and I also truly believe that many, many lives would have been spared. 

[Guest]

3 hours ago, Pen said:

IE

Is keypad touching still happening there? 

In stores in cities I go to the machines were reset to not need to be touched. Customer inserts or swipes card, no button touching or signature required. 

 

I can tell you that this is something DH spent a lot of time on this Spring. All the software now out from his company allows touchless, no signature, etc. California (and maybe some other states) required it, so it is extremely likely that this is the case across the industry, where the system can do it, but it may or may not be enabled. The complete touchless requires both fairly new hardware and a credit card that supports it, so not everyone will have access to that-in the US. It’s required in the EU. 

[Terabith]

55 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

Nor sure if it's been posted yet, but Claudia Conway is positive now too, and says she is feeling really sick. 

Claudia says she has it, but George says he and Claudia were just tested an hour ago and don't have the results back. 

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, Terabith said:

Claudia says she has it, but George says he and Claudia were just tested an hour ago and don't have the results back. 

Oy. I have to say, I don't know that I trust that kid. I'm sorry for her, but she seems to be dramatizing herself. 

[mathnerd]

2 hours ago, Corraleno said:

Kayleigh McEnany has now tested positive. 

Guiliani, who was in the debate prep meeting says that he has tested negative.

[Catwoman]

10 minutes ago, Terabith said:

Claudia says she has it, but George says he and Claudia were just tested an hour ago and don't have the results back. 

Well, I can understand why she assumes she has it, if she is having symptoms and her mother has already tested positive.

[maize]

27 minutes ago, Frances said:

But some people likely weren’t masking when appropriate before the mandate, correct? Hence the need for a mandate. Certainly at least some were following the example and words of the president and other leaders and resisting masking? Maybe even mocking others for masking? I definitely saw a change in behavior here after our relatively late mask mandate. There was lots more compliance. 

This is definitely what we have seen in my state where we still do not have a statewide mask mandate--in spite of a massive spike in cases driven at least in part by large unmasked gatherings.

I am NOT impressed with the lack of leadership coming from our governor, who repeatedly insists that mask mandates should be a local decision. The governor begs and pleads for people to wear masks, it isn't like he doesn't believe the science, but for political reasons he won't mandate them and so puts lives unnecessarily at risk.

Everyone who is going to mask out of a sense of social responsibility has been doing so for months; a mandate would help a lot with getting at least some of the mask refusers to start wearing them.

[Catwoman]

3 minutes ago, mathnerd said:

Guiliani, who was in the debate prep meeting says that he has tested negative.

I’m not entirely sure I would trust him to admit he tested positive until he reached a point where he needed to be hospitalized. But I’m getting pretty cynical about these things.

If he does eventually test positive, he is certainly at high risk for serious complications, so I’m sure he is worried.

 

[Pen]

57 minutes ago, Catwoman said:

Personally, I think if the mask mandates had happened very early on in the pandemic, people would have reacted differently. If the president had gone on TV and social media and emphasized things like social distancing and face covering, I don’t think this would have turned so vicious and political. I truly believe that if he had taken the stance that this virus was serious, but that all Americans needed to work together to fight it, people would have done just that. I think he really dropped the ball on that, and his choice to turn the entire situation into a Republican vs. Democrat battle was a huge disservice to the American people.

I also think all of the initial mixed messaging was a complete disaster, and I was so annoyed right from the start when they originally said masks weren’t necessary. I know they walked it back and said the N95s were needed for health care workers, but they could have very easily suggested the kinds of face coverings people are wearing now, and it would have helped slow the spread of the virus. Would those face coverings have been perfect? No, of course not, but they would have helped, and at least that would have been something. 

But I do believe that most of the vitriol against mask wearing is coming straight from the top, and people are just parroting the attitude of the president. And I think that is so sad. We should all be working together, not against each other. Covid doesn’t discriminate between political parties.

Personally, I like the mask mandates because it makes me feel like we are all in this together, and it makes me happy to see people doing the right thing to protect each other. It makes me feel less alone in all of this.

 

I have overlapping thoughts on this - and tend toward the side that thinks not masking does put other people at risk in general.  

 

but also I strongly think WHO, CDC, Fauci, and CIDRAP should be included in early negatives pronouncements on masks. 

And I do not know what would have happened if __________. (If Anything else happened in past other than what did happen.) 

Possibly there would have been even worse PPE shortages than there were if nearly everyone was immediately grabbing every bit like toilet paper. 

 

Possibly there would have been a flip flop in which demographics tended to embrace mask use.

Possibly we really do not know the future and possibly in the long run a non masking approach like in Sweden will actually turn out to be better. 

 

Possibly any number of threads of history would have followed up upon a different chain of events, a chain that we can no more know than we would have been likely to guess about 2020 events if asked in 2018. 

 

We cannot go back. And we do not even know for sure that our ideas of what would have happed “if only” are correct.  

 

I think a better question would be about now and future.  

 

For example, would this be a time for people, perhaps especially conservatives who support masks to write to elected representatives?  (  Like Dear Chris Christie I am praying for your speedy recovery and please would you rethink your stance on masks ... — ETA though ideally better done than that  )

 

Especially where it involves a  Senator or Congressperson  there may be some openness to constituent opinions.  They may even be somewhat open to out of state opinions. 

 

I have had a remarkably positive feeling during this pandemic about my ability to write or call my representatives (“on both sides of the aisle”) and to be heard even if “my position” has not been the winning one.

For all that’s imperfect, for me it has been a feeling of an opportunity to participate as a citizen in a small d democratic and small r republican society, which is not merely about voting once every couple of years, but can be more of a dialogue with elected and appointed officials’ staff as well — and I have spent time in some other countries in my life where that is very much not true. 

 

Edited October 5, 2020 by Pen

[Little Green Leaves]

4 hours ago, Pen said:

 

I think your understanding of masks was off base.

But I totally agree with you that there is massive unwarranted vitriol from MSM and tbh living in an area with both conservative and progressive-liberal persons, IME is that it is much more from the latter. As well, there is substantial vitriol and condescension attitude from the urban liberals toward the rural farmers and loggers and resentment back again that it is the rural farmers and fishers and packers and others who help to provide the essential basics and truckers who get the basics upon which life depends to the urban areas, and don’t have the luxury of calling it in via Zoom — and for whom the large numbers of hours needed may render masks largely ineffective and at a flip side of it being extremely hard to work effectively for long hours at physically strenuous jobs while masked. 

Farmers can be very intelligent.  

Even if they are not wearing a mask. And to them a “message” from non masked leadership may be solidarity with their plight. 

There are kids from our local school who were they urbanites would no doubt be heading to college, but instead will be taking over their family small farm or joining the family trade business. 

 

[ETA: Here’s a classical history professor/farmer talking about some of these issues — 

Warning - It is “political” but it also shows some intelligence and nuanced thinking possible which may not tend to be there in MSM soundbites.  If too political I will remove it. ]

 

 

This is interesting and I'm looking forward to watching this video.

There is a similar split even within urban areas, of course. Some of us have jobs that can be done remotely; many others work in retail, or in services, and obviously can't telecommute. So you have half the population staying home, ordering in their groceries and supplies, etc etc, and meanwhile everyone else still has to ride the subways and buses, send their kids to daycare, etc. 

I'm very much in favor of masking and precautions. But I do sometimes notice a slight hectoring tone in the media (where the journalists are reporting from their home studios) and  almost no mention of people in different circumstances. 

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Catwoman said:

 

The dd claimed that KellyAnne was coughing all around the house and saying that masks were stupid. The dd also claimed that her mom was going to lie about her diagnosis until the dd ratted her out on social media.

KellyAnne sounds like Mother of the Year, doesn’t she? All politics aside, she knew she was “coughing all over the house,” yet she wouldn’t even self-quarantine or wear a mask at home to protect her own family. 

That is despicable.

 

That daughter though...

I don't know the dd and don't follow SM or her Tweets, but she is certainly very destructive to her parents, regardless of what sort of asshats they may be. As a mom who is married to someone across the political aisle from me, much like Kellyanne and George, I can't imagine how much pain it would add if my teenager was also constantly spouting such hatred and divisiveness. 

 

[Catwoman]

3 minutes ago, Quill said:

That daughter though...

I don't know the dd and don't follow SM or her Tweets, but she is certainly very destructive to her parents, regardless of what sort of asshats they may be. As a mom who is married to someone across the political aisle from me, much like Kellyanne and George, I can't imagine how much pain it would add if my teenager was also constantly spouting such hatred and divisiveness. 

 

While that may be true, if KellyAnne truly was “coughing all over the house” with no regard for her family’s health, I find it difficult to muster up any sympathy for her.

Also, she risked her family’s health simply by attending the Supreme Court event and neither wearing a mask nor social distancing. So again, I’m not feeling any respect toward her right now. 

[catz]

5 minutes ago, Quill said:

That daughter though...

I don't know the dd and don't follow SM or her Tweets, but she is certainly very destructive to her parents, regardless of what sort of asshats they may be. As a mom who is married to someone across the political aisle from me, much like Kellyanne and George, I can't imagine how much pain it would add if my teenager was also constantly spouting such hatred and divisiveness. 

 

To be fair, I suspect she isn't living in an  emotionally healthy home with attentive and loving parents.  And it likely has nothing to do with their political leanings.     

[OH_Homeschooler]

1 hour ago, Pen said:

 

I have overlapping thoughts on this - and tend toward the side that thinks not masking does put other people at risk in general.  

 

but also I strongly think WHO, CDC, Fauci, and CIDRAP should be included in early negatives pronouncements on masks. 

And I do not know what would have happened if __________. (If Anything else happened in past other than what did happen.) 

Possibly there would have been even worse PPE shortages than there were if nearly everyone was immediately grabbing every bit like toilet paper. 

 

 

 

 

This is not directed at you but at the countless times I've seen people post on FB and other forums that "Even Fauci said not to wear masks."

He said that at the beginning of the epidemic, in an effort to prevent hoarding of medical supplies that were needed by medical professionals. 

He has since repeatedly stated that masks save lives. Once he stated to wear them, he never backtracked. 

That's how science works. You start with a hypothesis. You test it. Tentative conclusions are made. Those are tested. They are altered. New hypotheses are generated. Science can admit its limitations and is always seeking better information. 

It is not about stubbornly believing one thing for all of eternity and continually faulting someone for saying something one time before they legitimately knew better.

Now we know better (and admittedly have a lot more to learn) but people are still pretending like we don't.