Protests

[Melissa in Australia]

Currently in my state you are only allowed to leave your house for 4 reasons, medical, getting food, urgent compassionate care or exercise. Leaving for any other reason results in a fine. And it is being I forced.

Some people tried to protest  something or other about wanting fancier hotels for refugees or something. They were all fined for breaching the stay at home order. We all thought it was completely just that they were fined.

This is a time of public health emergency. It is a pain for everyone but together we can make a huge difference to outcomes and save many lives

[frogger]

Many of these people would be all for locking up migrant children because they are "illegals" which I find ironic.  

You can say it's evil but I'd rather they pay the consequences of their actions rather than someone else. Of course, in reality I'd like no one to get sick but if it has to be someone.

[Melissa in Australia]

Currently media here is using USA as an example of what happens to a country that has responded very poorly. 

The whole world is watching you with interest to see what kind of disaster will happen when you relax your lock down orders

[TCB]

4 minutes ago, Loowit said:

I understand what you are saying and that makes sense.

I guess I was assuming that they were talking about doctors and nurses in hospitals with the proper equipment refusing emergency treatment solely based on them having been at a protest.  I am also not sure how they would know that someone was a protester, unless perhaps they came to the ER with their protest sign.

There is no way that anyone would or could do this but it doesn't make it right that people are deliberately putting other's lives at risk, including those working in the hospital providing the care. I keep thinking about making a decision to do something like one of those protests and then having to live with the consequences of people dying if that were to happen. I just can't imagine not erring on the side of caution. It makes me really sad. I hope it doesn't have the effect we all fear. 

[TCB]

4 minutes ago, Melissa in Australia said:

Currently in my state you are only allowed to leave your house for 4 reasons, medical, getting food, urgent compassionate care or exercise. Leaving for any other reason results in a fine. And it is being I forced.

Some people tried to protest  something or other about wanting fancier hotels for refugees or something. They were all fined for breaching the stay at home order. We all thought it was completely just that they were fined.

This is a time of public health emergency. It is a pain for everyone but together we can make a huge difference to outcomes and save many lives

This , my friend, is the common sense approach. I can't believe how many people I know who are not taking this approach. 

[TCB]

9 minutes ago, Dreamergal said:

Two weeks ago, my opinion was absolute, shut down saves lives. No grey areas. I still believe that people who can should, but I have seen enough to have an opinion not set in stone. 

People in my native country have domestic help. It is a country of a billion people, labor is cheap. These are mostly cash only payments and they do not have bank accounts. One of the essential services open are banks and people are encouraged to do online banking. So how does someone who gets a salary in cash use a bank ? The domestic help is not coming to the house because of social distancing,  but even if the employer is willing to pay a salary how are they supposed to get it to them ? You cannot do an online transfer for a person who does not have a bank account, they do not have phones. So they are supposed to starve ? It will kill them if this goes on. These are all healthy people with no underlying conditions. They will still die because they cannot work even when they have work and they can't get the money people are willing to pay because they cannot go out. They are getting beaten by the police if they do so. No government is giving them money or food. So this medical thing about getting treatment for this, needs to be figured out ASAP, vaccine can wait or people will die of starvation. 

That is a terrible situation and I'm so sorry it is happening! You are right, there are no easy answers. The protests that we have been unhappy with are the ones taking place here and their circumstances are not like that, so it feels like they are endangering people unnecessarily. I have to add though, that I know the whole economic situation is, indeed, terrible for some here also. We all need to work together to find a solution. Infighting isn't going to help anyone.

[Pen]

1 hour ago, Dreamergal said:

Two weeks ago, my opinion was absolute, shut down saves lives. No grey areas. I still believe that people who can should, but I have seen enough to have an opinion not set in stone. 

People in my native country have domestic help. It is a country of a billion people, labor is cheap. These are mostly cash only payments and they do not have bank accounts. One of the essential services open are banks and people are encouraged to do online banking. So how does someone who gets a salary in cash use a bank ? The domestic help is not coming to the house because of social distancing,  but even if the employer is willing to pay a salary how are they supposed to get it to them ? You cannot do an online transfer for a person who does not have a bank account, they do not have phones. So they are supposed to starve ? It will kill them if this goes on. These are all healthy people with no underlying conditions. They will still die because they cannot work even when they have work and they can't get the money people are willing to pay because they cannot go out. They are getting beaten by the police if they do so. No government is giving them money or food. So this medical thing about getting treatment for this, needs to be figured out ASAP, vaccine can wait or people will die of starvation. 

 

It sounds like a bunch of things that need to be figured out.

How to get food to people who need it.

Food more than money seems to be the problem and may as well be dealt with directly rather than many steps.

 I assume India is probably your country of origin .  And I don’t know what should be done. However,  If antimalarials look useful as prophylactic treatment, India might be able to do that—produce quite a lot quite quickly.   And do studies on it too. 

 

[Pen]

4 minutes ago, Seasider too said:

So I heard a bit on the radio today saying that Kentucky, after a non-physically-distanced public protest that took place last Wednesday, today recorded their highest to date number of new cases. 

I am curious where they were on their projected curve; was this to be expected (and the media is sensationalizing it), or can it actually be traced to the protest gathering for causation?

I'm popping in and out and away from the web between other tasks today, maybe one of you here have more info on that to share. 

 

By tests on people who attended or by people who were showing symptoms?  It seems early for large numbers of significantly symptomatic cases.  Though maybe the incubation time is speeding up. 

[MercyA]

.

Edited April 21, 2020 by MercyA

[Melissa in Australia]

1 minute ago, kdsuomi said:

 

To be crass, are you guys also watching the European countries that are opening before parts of the U.S. and also hoping their citizens get infected? That's exactly how you come across.

Of course we are. I think you will find that the news in other countries like Australia is more world centric

Italy, Spain and USA are the countries used here of an example of a poor response. 

I never said I was hoping that anyone got or gets infected. That is not what I wrote at all. 

 

[Melissa in Australia]

3 minutes ago, StellaM said:

Interest = see how well or how poorly each country's opening 'strategy' works in terms of controlling the virus.

UK and US look like 'what not to do' currently, whereas I'd guess most of us are looking at Germany and similar countries for a possible 'what to do'.

 

 

Thank you. That was exactly what I was meaning. 

Sometimes I am taken aback by the difference in Aus English vers USA English and feel very misunderstood

 I am looking at New Zealand reducing of restrictions with great interest 

Edited April 21, 2020 by Melissa in Australia

[wendyroo]

4 minutes ago, kdsuomi said:

 

To be crass, are you guys also watching the European countries that are opening before parts of the U.S. and also hoping their citizens get infected? That's exactly how you come across.

I am deeply embarrassed by the American handling of the crisis (on so many levels), and take no offense if the rest of the world is watching us and shaking their heads.

I live in Michigan, and while I wish no one any harm, I am watching Lansing and surrounding rural communities with interest to see what kind of disaster will happen due to the irresponsibly-conducted protest.

Actions have consequences, and it is intrinsically human, and actually socially beneficial, to judge people for what we consider irresponsible/immoral/bad choices, and hopefully learn from their example.  I hope that other countries look at our petty divisiveness, our lack of coherent leadership, our poor preparation and cooperation and are frightened enough by the results to unify behind their own governments.  That seems to be all we can offer the global community - a rallying example of what not to do.

[kbutton]

3 hours ago, Melissa in Australia said:

Currently media here is using USA as an example of what happens to a country that has responded very poorly. 

The whole world is watching you with interest to see what kind of disaster will happen when you relax your lock down orders

It's odd for us to think about others looking at the US response as one response (which you might've meant or not meant). 

I agree that it's not been managed well in many ways (even while grateful that I live in a proactive state). 

It's also one of those strange things that travel into and out of the country is a national thing, the CDC is a national thing, but then when it all hits the fan, it's a state thing. That alone can be a disaster depending if it's working well or not (obviously not super smoothly this time). Typing it out, it sounds bizarre. 🙂 

[SKL]

3 hours ago, Melissa in Australia said:

Currently media here is using USA as an example of what happens to a country that has responded very poorly. 

The whole world is watching you with interest to see what kind of disaster will happen when you relax your lock down orders

Yeah unfortunately New York and New Jersey have totally skewed the US numbers.  Most states have decent numbers compared to other countries.

[SKL]

14 minutes ago, kand said:

Yeah, they’re part of the country though. You could say the same about many other hard hit countries. Removing Lombardy from Italy’s numbers and Madrid from Spain’s would make them look a lot more decent as well. 

RIght, but the idea of blaming policy in Podunk Utah for the deaths in NYC makes no sense.

[wathe]

4 hours ago, kbutton said:

It's odd for us to think about others looking at the US response as one response (which you might've meant or not meant). 

I agree that it's not been managed well in many ways (even while grateful that I live in a proactive state). 

It's also one of those strange things that travel into and out of the country is a national thing, the CDC is a national thing, but then when it all hits the fan, it's a state thing. That alone can be a disaster depending if it's working well or not (obviously not super smoothly this time). Typing it out, it sounds bizarre. 🙂 

It's not odd at all from the outside though - USA is a country with a perceived national response, that outsiders are naturally going to compare with the national responses of other countries.   Lots of countries have enormous regional differences and regional/provincial/state government structures.  I don't think USA is as unique in this aspect as many American posters here seem to think.  And from the outside, your states certainly don't seem as different from one another as Americans seem to imagine:  same legal structures, same health care models/systems (health insurance being linked to employer is weird to much of the rest of the world), same political systems,  similar welfare systems/social safety nets.  Protest photos from Texas, Michigan, Colorado and California all look exactly the same to me - American.

The Canadian response has been similarly been regional, in that each province is running it's own show with respect to public health, provincial states of emergency, emergency orders, testing strategies.  Some provinces have been hit much harder than others.  But no-one here in Canada would think it strange that non-Canadians would think of Canada as a country, and judge its response to this pandemic as a nation.

 

Edited to fix apostrophe catastrophe!

 

 

Edited April 21, 2020 by wathe

[Pawz4me]

6 hours ago, kbutton said:

It's odd for us to think about others looking at the US response as one response (which you might've meant or not meant). 

 

??? It doesn't seem odd at all to me, and I'm as American as they come.

I think of the U.S. kind of like a book. There are lots of chapters, and some chapters or parts may be better or worse than others. But still, you judge the entire work.

[Carrie12345]

22 hours ago, TracyP said:

In my area, they want their bar/restaurant/cafe to open. I saw a bar owner shouting at a police officer 3 weeks ago, and I just felt sick. Frustration levels are so high for these small business owners. 

Does anyone have an idea of how those bar/restaurant/cafe owners would plan to operate? Would they limit their services to locals? Because that’s the type of plan I might consider edging toward reasonable.

The reason NY, NJ, PA, etc. are trying to work together is because The People Who Want to Go Out will travel to wherever they can get services. If NJ stays “closed” and PA goes “open”, they will come do their thing in PA, with the potential to bring infection here or bring it back home with them. If both PA and NJ stay closed, it’s not an issue.

Cuomo’s story of a couple traveling from downstate to upstate for Thai food isn’t a one-off. They drove 2.5 hours. Unless small towns in the middle of nowhere are willing to shut borders, opening inside will draw people from outside.

I know that doesn’t change the frustration. Many of my friends have small niche businesses that can’t offer take out. It is hard, no question.

[El...]

"Opening back up" may mean very different things from place to place. Sure, Germany is carefully opening some things, but they just canceled Octoberfest, which would have occurred in late September. They're assessing their risks very deliberately.  https://mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKBN2230RY

[TracyP]

57 minutes ago, Carrie12345 said:

Does anyone have an idea of how those bar/restaurant/cafe owners would plan to operate? Would they limit their services to locals? Because that’s the type of plan I might consider edging toward reasonable.

That is at the root of the frustration for some of these places. They are already serving only locals because they are in the middle of BFE. They don't have a ton of customers at any given time, so they could easily pull out half their tables without even impacting business. Some of them just don't get why they need to close down. To be clear, I'm not saying I agree. But I do understand how they could feel that way when the danger seems (to them) so far away.

[Guest]

15 hours ago, Where's Toto? said:

Except many of these protests are not taking reasonable safety precautions at all.

I saw one reference to a protest here in NJ.   I'm really hoping it's just the astro-turfing and nobody else shows up.   EVERYBODY around here knows somebody who has been sick, many know somebody who died or at least has a connection to somebody who had a loved one die, many work in healthcare, many have loved ones in nursing homes having serious problems right now.  It's very very REAL around here.   I don't see how anyone could ignore what's happening enough to show up for a protest.

 

This is one of the things I don’t understand when people are pushing some version of it’s not deadly/it’s a power grab/we all had this last December. Are they totally ignoring what has happened/is happening is NY and NJ? Do they just not believe people are actually dying? 

My dh was reading out a FB post that was “explaining” how we all have herd immunity. My question is, “How can someone believe that when we saw what happened in Italy! And Spain! People dying in the hospital hallways or at home because there’s no help available.” I just do not understand the wishful thinking that motivates a post like that. (And it is only more baffling to me when the poster claims to be “Pro-Life”!) 

[MercyA]

@Quill, people in my area still seem to think it's no worse than influenza. They say the numbers of deaths are inflated. 

Until someone they know dies, nothing is going to change their mind. 

It's baffling and frustrating and sad.

[Scarlett]

21 hours ago, Carrie12345 said:

I was just thinking the other night that I’d love a drive through bar, lol. Some people can’t cook; I can’t mix decent drinks most of the time.

I remember years ago in LA getting a margarita in a drive through.  And there was/is a restaurant in FT Smith AR that brings beer to your car.

[Scarlett]

11 hours ago, kdsuomi said:

 

To be crass, are you guys also watching the European countries that are opening before parts of the U.S. and also hoping their citizens get infected? That's exactly how you come across.

 

11 hours ago, Melissa in Australia said:

Of course we are. I think you will find that the news in other countries like Australia is more world centric

Italy, Spain and USA are the countries used here of an example of a poor response. 

I never said I was hoping that anyone got or gets infected. That is not what I wrote at all. 

 

I did not think you were hoping anyone gets infected.  I did not read it that way at all.  ((Hugs)))

[Wheres Toto]

11 hours ago, Seasider too said:

 

Initially I just heard a very brief radio news clip, but I finally had a moment to sit down and look for an article. Looks like it may have actually been due to testing/retesting. I also wondered if  Wednesday to today were enough time to see an effect of the large gathering. Probably just as I thought it might be, an attempt to sensationalize the matter.

By the weekend, maybe.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.kentucky.com/news/coronavirus/article242124556.html

It may be too soon after the protest to be the result of that, but I do think it's a sign that other states aren't "past the peak", they just haven't gotten there yet.   Probably due to shutting down early.   And if these large gatherings continue, I think they may start getting peaks they can't ignore so easily.

10 hours ago, SKL said:

Yeah unfortunately New York and New Jersey have totally skewed the US numbers.  Most states have decent numbers compared to other countries.

For now.   Most states have decent numbers for now.

Believe me, I'm not wishing for other states to experience what we are here.   But I'm afraid that's exactly where we are heading. 

[MEmama]

12 hours ago, Melissa in Australia said:

Thank you. That was exactly what I was meaning. 

Sometimes I am taken aback by the difference in Aus English vers USA English and feel very misunderstood

 I am looking at New Zealand reducing of restrictions with great interest there is a difference between being misunderstood and being intentionally misunderstood.

😞
There is a difference between being misunderstood and being intentionally misunderstood. 
Your words are always clear to this American. 

Edited April 21, 2020 by MEmama

[Jaybee]

1 hour ago, Quill said:

This is one of the things I don’t understand when people are pushing some version of it’s not deadly/it’s a power grab/we all had this last December. Are they totally ignoring what has happened/is happening is NY and NJ? Do they just not believe people are actually dying? 

My dh was reading out a FB post that was “explaining” how we all have herd immunity. My question is, “How can someone believe that when we saw what happened in Italy! And Spain! People dying in the hospital hallways or at home because there’s no help available.” I just do not understand the wishful thinking that motivates a post like that. (And it is only more baffling to me when the poster claims to be “Pro-Life”!) 

A couple of my adult children live in areas much harder hit, and I live in an area much more rural, where the virus is just now beginning to seep in with "somebody knows somebody" type situations. I think it must be like how humans often react to any disaster that doesn't affect them directly--they just isolate it emotionally, think "those poor people way over there," and have trouble making the leap to local/personal realities and possibilities (or probabilities). I have to temper my desire to shout in frustration that "if you saw what my dd is seeing, you'd take this more seriously!" I temper it because there's a point it doesn't make any difference to their behavior and mindset, and they just think I'm nuts. So I quietly do what I can (though it is limited more than I would like due to local circumstances), keep as educated as possible, and hope that, despite my desire to see some arrogant people humbled, things don't get horrible here.

[kbutton]

8 hours ago, wathe said:

It's not odd at all from the outside though - USA is a country with a perceived national response, that outsiders are naturally going to compare with the national responses of other countries.   Lots of countries have enormous regional differences and regional/provincial/state government structures.  I don't think USA is as unique in this aspect as many American posters here seem to think.  And from the outside, your states certainly don't seem as different from one another as Americans seem to imagine:  same legal structures, same health care models/systems (health insurance being linked to employer is weird to much of the rest of the world), same political systems,  similar welfare systems/social safety nets.  Protest photos from Texas, Michigan, Colorado and California all look exactly the same to me - American.

The Canadian response has been similarly been regional, in that each province is running it's own show with respect to public health, provincial states of emergency, emergency orders, testing strategies.  Some provinces have been hit much harder than others.  But no-one here in Canada would think it strange that non-Canadians would think of Canada as a country, and judge its response to this pandemic as a nation.

Edited to fix apostrophe catastrophe!

I didn't say it was odd from the outside, nor was I intentionally critiquing the outside perspective. I copied what I said below, and I am not sure I could've added too many more disclaimers other than that my us might not represent the whole of America. 

Quote

It's odd for us to think about others looking at the US response as one response (which you might've meant or not meant). 

Just offering an opinion as to why SOME Americans might've been taken aback ["to surprise or shock (someone) —usually used as (be) taken aback"]. It's an observation, accompanied by smileys and an observation that even as I was typing it, it seemed odd. Looking at one's country through a different lens can make things seem unusual you typically take for granted. It doesn't mean that I can't make that shift mentally, but it is a shift. I was trying to express that shift in my statement and have a light-hearted look at it. 

I realize other countries have a national/state or province approach to government as well. The person who accused Melissa of being rude (not sure that was the word) mentioned Europe and Italy as examples. I don't know Italy's governmental structure off the top of my head. I don't generally think of Europe as a monolith. 

1 hour ago, Scarlett said:

I did not think you were hoping anyone gets infected.  I did not read it that way at all.  ((Hugs)))

I wasn't thinking that either. 

Edited April 21, 2020 by kbutton
Added a quote from myself and another comment near it.

[Pen]

2 hours ago, Scarlett said:

 

I did not think you were hoping anyone gets infected.  I did not read it that way at all.  ((Hugs)))

 

1 hour ago, MEmama said:

😞
There is a difference between being misunderstood and being intentionally misunderstood. 
Your words are always clear to this American. 

 

Same here.  😊

And as much as you may be watching USA with interest, people where I am will probably be watching the first states of USA to drop relax Stay Home rules with interest.  And are watching Sweden.

Also I have been learning about place differences and culture differences. Sweden, for example, has a high proportion of people living alone compared to many other places — which may be hugely helpful for Distancing for many hours per day. It may decrease viral load from exposures so that many people (not nursing homes etc) may have smaller dosing with infectious material ... and, who knows, perhaps that makes it easier to have more asymptomatic and very very mild infection .  

Edited April 21, 2020 by Pen

[MEmama]

47 minutes ago, Pen said:

 

 

Same here.  😊

And as much as you may be watching USA with interest, people where I am will probably be watching the first states of USA to drop relax Stay Home rules with interest.  And are watching Sweden.

Also I have been learning about place differences and culture differences. Sweden, for example, has a high proportion of people living alone compared to many other places — which may be hugely helpful for Distancing for many hours per day. It may decrease viral load from exposures so that many people (not nursing homes etc) may have smaller dosing with infectious material ... and, who knows, perhaps that makes it easier to have more asymptomatic and very very mild infection .  

I think this is part of the nuanced differences that many people who insist we just “open the country now!” are missing. So they see that Sweden isn’t on “lock down”, that Germany is taking its first tentative steps into relaxing a few rules and all they see is that those countries are “open for business”. Never mind they have vastly different cultures than us, never mind that the relaxed rules might be things that are STILL open here. The comparisons between countries are never apples to apples.
 

[Pen]

29 minutes ago, Dreamergal said:

 India has containment strategy. Due to the dense population, it is practically impossible to socially distance because people walk bumping into each other on good days simply because there is just no place in urban areas. They are in lockdown. So they pick up a person with COVID and cart them to the hospital, no staying at home, no family allowed. Then they cordon the whole street, no one can go in or out as in not even grocery shopping. The government gives basic groceries like rice and vegetables. This is only if there is COVID in the street. Last I checked and it as well may be outdated as I do not often for my mental sanity, 19k cases in total

 

That’s still correct.  As per worldometer

29 minutes ago, Dreamergal said:

The people who do not have COVID however are a fast staggering majority in the millions. Most of the population lives in poverty conditions on a good day and were at risk even before this. These are people that are at risk for starvation because how many can you feed ? 

 

I don’t know how much food India gets from outside of India or imports out. 

To the extent that food production within the country is sufficient for the population, there has not been afaik a major crop failure — afaik that means that as many as could be fed before the pandemic still can be in terms of supply.  Particularly if agriculture work is allowed to continue.  It would seem that distribution is more the problem than actual shortage at a time when crops were not destroyed. 

And in an era not only with vehicles of many sizes and capacities to carry grains, legumes, vegetables, etc, but even an era when drones exist that conceivably could help distribute from a truck to outer doors, or perhaps even parachutes to drop food from planes as is sometimes done for earthquakes and similar disasters — it seems like it must be possible to achieve distribution —if people are very creative and figure it out.  If people put their minds and wills toward doing so.   (Though it may be the case that there isn’t actual interest and will to figure it out.) 

Perhaps food growers, harvesters, distributors could have a premium importance for receiving testing and maybe PPE as needed and useful (might be way too hot)  allowing food production and distribution  to function as much as possible without spreading infection 

 If Europe and North America could get past their own disaster / emergency situations, possibly they could help.

Maybe people stuck at home could invent things to help.   3D printer or old fashioned hand made trebuchets that send food from a truck to doorways with minimum direct human contact... or 3D etc type mask forms that allow the direction of incoming air to change so that it isn’t so much a hot, hard to breath through filter as a way for an outdoor worker to get air into nose from above and behind head while exhaled air from mouth is sent downwards

 

[wathe]

40 minutes ago, kbutton said:

I didn't say it was odd from the outside, nor was I intentionally critiquing the outside perspective. I copied what I said below, and I am not sure I could've added too many more disclaimers other than that my us might not represent the whole of America. 

 

Kbutton, I did not mean for my post to be aggressive, I hope you didn't read it as such.  Your post did prompt me to expand on the opposite point of view - because the idea you referred to seems not just odd, but absolutely absurd from the outside.

Everyone, of course I am aware that all Americans don't see this the same way.  But Kbutton isn't the first poster to post the idea that the world should view the US's response as 50 separate state responses rather than as a national response. (I am not suggesting that Kbutton holds this view herself, for the record)  It's been suggested on this board (in I don't remember which thread) that the US response should really be likened to the response of the whole of Europe - that each US state should be likened to its own little country.  My point is that the rest of the world just doesn't perceive it that way.

If anything, in general (not just for COVID) I think the rest of the world perceives the US to have a stronger national presence/sense of nationhood/national cohesion/national brand (can't quite find the right words) on the world stage than many other countries.  International media presence, dominance at the Olympics, fondness for displaying your flag, president with a flair for media attention, dominance in many world affairs.   Even at the international youth scout camps I've attended, the chant "USA! USA!"  by American groups is ubiquitous (so ubiquitous that our group has a standard response; we, with good humour, chant back "Ketchup Chips! Ketchup Chips!" 🙂 Canadian snack food is funny to youth apparently ).  So I think it follows that of course the world views the USA's COVID response as a national response. 

 

 

 

[Guest]

15 hours ago, Seasider too said:

So I heard a bit on the radio today saying that Kentucky, after a non-physically-distanced public protest that took place last Wednesday, today recorded their highest to date number of new cases. 

I am curious where they were on their projected curve; was this to be expected (and the media is sensationalizing it), or can it actually be traced to the protest gathering for causation?

I'm popping in and out and away from the web between other tasks today, maybe one of you here have more info on that to share. 

Wednesday seems a bit early for the protests to have any effect on numbers whatsoever. I'm inclined to believe, just like here, that the numbers were going up anyway, and any spike from protests would be in another week, which would hit that 10-14 days expected incubation period. Now, if they (as we did here) had churches violating Stay at Home Orders during Holy Week and Easter, I could see that starting to be apparent now. 

Edited April 21, 2020 by dmmetler

[Pen]

 

17 hours ago, Melissa in Australia said:

The whole world is watching you with interest to see what kind of disaster will happen when you relax your lock down orders

 

The official Stay Home, SIP, lock down relaxation plans with stages and ability to tighten back up, such as has been outlined by Deborah Birx and others, in and of themselves seem reasonably rational and likely to go reasonably well.  They seem consistent with the dance part of Hammer and Dance strategy and probably a reasonably good strategy for the circumstances. 

What is not going at all well is people not abiding by lockdown and physical distance orders and advice that exists, and people not doing what they can to Physically Distance as a matter of responsibility — waiting instead for orders to force it upon them and then often fighting / disobeying or following the advice in stupid ways (like crocheted masks with gaping holes, congregating in home improvement stores...) ... 

I am concerned that people in places like where I live will look at some state allowed to go early, see it go well,  and decide that the restrictions must be stupid and unnecessary because _____ State is off Stay Home and doing fine so they can go do whatever they want too .   And irl what I see and hear, it isn’t about getting back to work, it’s about playing, basically. 

 Like summer festivals being open or closed are being petitioned and argued about right now.   There are a few big ones in my area that were not canceled last I am aware.  I can’t imagine that it would be a good thing to have 100,000 people arriving from many places to spend a few days in tight quarters and then go back whence they came. 

In Nevada, the wish for Casinos to be open, seems similar.  

And I don’t think either place can handle this sort of thing even if perhaps Wyoming and North Dakota are doing quite well. 

[MercyA]

4 hours ago, MercyA said:

@Quill, people in my area still seem to think it's no worse than influenza. They say the numbers of deaths are inflated. 

Until someone they know dies, nothing is going to change their mind. 

It's baffling and frustrating and sad.

Also, it's all a communist plot. They really believe this. 

[Pen]

13 minutes ago, dmmetler said:

Wednesday seems a bit early for the protests to have any effect on numbers whatsoever. I'm inclined to believe, just like here, that the numbers were going up anyway, and any spike from protests would be in another week, which would hit that 10-14 days expected incubation period. Now, if they (as we did here) had churches violating Stay at Home Orders during Holy Week and Easter, I could see that starting to be apparent now. 

 

I agree that current spikes are more likely to reflect Easter.

Not only is there an incubation time, but after incubation most people don’t seem to feel really sick till around 10-14 days after first symptoms

[Pen]

1 minute ago, MercyA said:

Also, it's all a communist plot. They really believe this. 

 

Wouldn’t that make them want to take it especially seriously if they really believe it is on purpose to undermine non-communist world? 

 

[MercyA]

3 minutes ago, Pen said:

Wouldn’t that make them want to take it especially seriously if they really believe it is on purpose to undermine non-communist world? 

Apparently not. There is no logic. 

[wendyroo]

4 minutes ago, Pen said:

And irl what I see and hear, it isn’t about getting back to work, it’s about playing, basically. 

This is what I am seeing and hearing as well.

The protesters want their God given freedom...to boat, golf, get their hair cut, fish, go out to eat, buy craft supplies at Walmart, etc.

It is a shame because I know a lot of people are in dire straits right now and that the government support they are receiving is too little, too late.  I would be much more understanding and empathetic if they were out there protesting for strong, faster unemployment support or more equitable small business loans or ramped up testing and PPE to get everyone safely back to work more quickly.

But golf and hair cuts?

[Pen]

 

1 hour ago, wathe said:

Everyone, of course I am aware that all Americans don't see this the same way.  But Kbutton isn't the first poster to post the idea that the world should view the US's response as 50 separate state responses rather than as a national response. (I am not suggesting that Kbutton holds this view herself, for the record)  It's been suggested on this board (in I don't remember which thread) that the US response should really be likened to the response of the whole of Europe - that each US state should be likened to its own little country.  My point is that the rest of the world just doesn't perceive it that way.

 

I otoh tend to see places like Canada and Australia as having a great deal of state / provincial autonomy.  Maybe wrongly seeing them as I view USA.

 

 I have wondered if BC and Washington State  (or Ontario and New York/ Massachusetts) might not have more in common when a virus is involved than some of the inner continent provinces and states have in common with these maritime areas. .

In terms of the virus’s  ability to travel and infect people.  Obviously not in terms of health care systems. 

 

[MEmama]

1 hour ago, wathe said:

Kbutton, I did not mean for my post to be aggressive, I hope you didn't read it as such.  Your post did prompt me to expand on the opposite point of view - because the idea you referred to seems not just odd, but absolutely absurd from the outside.

Everyone, of course I am aware that all Americans don't see this the same way.  But Kbutton isn't the first poster to post the idea that the world should view the US's response as 50 separate state responses rather than as a national response. (I am not suggesting that Kbutton holds this view herself, for the record)  It's been suggested on this board (in I don't remember which thread) that the US response should really be likened to the response of the whole of Europe - that each US state should be likened to its own little country.  My point is that the rest of the world just doesn't perceive it that way.

If anything, in general (not just for COVID) I think the rest of the world perceives the US to have a stronger national presence/sense of nationhood/national cohesion/national brand (can't quite find the right words) on the world stage than many other countries.  International media presence, dominance at the Olympics, fondness for displaying your flag, president with a flair for media attention, dominance in many world affairs.   Even at the international youth scout camps I've attended, the chant "USA! USA!"  by American groups is ubiquitous (so ubiquitous that our group has a standard response; we, with good humour, chant back "Ketchup Chips! Ketchup Chips!" 🙂 Canadian snack food is funny to youth apparently ).  So I think it follows that of course the world views the USA's COVID response as a national response. 

 

 

 

I have never once heard any American say or insinuate that the states are like countries within Europe until this thread. This idea is 100% baffling to me. I honestly don’t think most Americans see it that way, either, unless maybe it serves their purpose in the moment? Frankly I find the idea completely absurd. 🤷‍♀️
 

[wathe]

4 minutes ago, MEmama said:

I have never once heard any American say or insinuate that the states are like countries within Europe until this thread. This idea is 100% baffling to me. I honestly don’t think most Americans see it that way, either, unless maybe it serves their purpose in the moment? Frankly I find the idea completely absurd. 🤷‍♀️
 

I wish I could remember which thread it was. 

[MEmama]

5 minutes ago, wathe said:

I wish I could remember which thread it was. 

They all run together now, don’t they? At least they do for me. 
Probably I should just look away more frequently. Lol

[frogger]

59 minutes ago, Pen said:

 

 

 

In Nevada, the wish for Casinos to be open, seems similar.  

 

 

 

I agree with a lot of what you said and there is certainly a group locally that the ideology is what is getting them. Sometimes you have to think in more nuanced terms regarding your ideology. Certainly there is more to it then "the government can't tell me what to do." Rights come with responsibilities and a duty to your fellow man. 

 

I just quoted this to say a lot of people work in casinos and it is their livelihood.  Among rural folk, sometimes they actually do supplement their food with fishing and hunting.  That doesn't mean they are the ones complaining.

 

 

 

 

[SKL]

13 minutes ago, MEmama said:

I have never once heard any American say or insinuate that the states are like countries within Europe until this thread. This idea is 100% baffling to me. I honestly don’t think most Americans see it that way, either, unless maybe it serves their purpose in the moment? Frankly I find the idea completely absurd. 🤷‍♀️
 

I did mention that in terms of one specific issue, expecting the US to all do the same thing would be like expecting all countries in the European Union to do the same thing.

The US constitution explicitly reserves most governance to the states or individuals.  The Commerce Clause has been used to water that down a lot, but not completely.  Equally important, the situation in the different states or even counties is extremely different as far as this current crisis is concerned.  I assume that is also true in other countries, but perhaps more so here given its geographical size.  That combined with the constitutional structure might be somewhat unique, though I don't pretend to know every other country's constitution.

I guess I picture folks overseas seeing "US is lifting restrictions" and thinking that's happening in NYC / NJ, a geographically tiny area where over half of our cases are concentrated.  The comment that sparked this discussion did sound that way.

I do understand that the world will be watching to see what the results of our policies are, but I hope the policymakers at least understand what to watch - i.e. if they lift restrictions in Podunk Utah, then watch what happens in Podunk Utah, not NYC or Detroit.

[Pen]

 

2 minutes ago, frogger said:

I just quoted this to say a lot of people work in casinos and it is their livelihood.  Among rural folk, sometimes they actually do supplement their food with fishing and hunting.  That doesn't mean they are the ones complaining.

 

 

 

I don’t think I understand what you are getting at.

Lots of people work on cruise ships, for airlines, at amusement parks, in theaters, in professional sports industry... many situations  that tend to enable rapid viral spread have many employees as well as many customers.  

[Pen]

56 minutes ago, Dreamergal said:

The numbers being per Worldmeter, I am highly cynical about it.Not about world meter, but unless they counted themselves, they got the number from a government source and historically given the precedence to always lessen the numbers not give actual numbers even during the tsunami, I cannot trust them. This is not my cynicism against the current Indian government, but a precedent I am used to.

 

The official numbers are low everywhere, we know that.  Some places (possibly South Korea and Singapore, for example) have it somewhat more accurate than others. 

Quote

The country has inherent social systems like caste that basically decide your life for you be it education to the life you live. It may seem an absolute far fetched statement of exaggeration unless you have lived that reality. Everyone's life is affected by it. Only extreme wealth cushions you somewhat. It is most in rural areas where even now "untouchables" live outside a village and the "higher caste" dictates where you go. So even if the government sends relief or airdrops, they will be the last to get it if at all. This will explain it better more than I can. 

https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/15/asia/india-coronavirus-lower-castes-hnk-intl/index.html

There are systems there government, public and individual that help the poor. But most rely on the person actually being there. Like the beggar population. They number in the millions. They get their food by going door to door or places that mass feed very basic, not very nutritious food. There is something called mid-day meal scheme where the government provides rice, vegetables and an occasional egg and a bunch of people on staff exclusively to cook, clean and serve 5 days a week  for that in each government school. This is basically a carrot to bring poor kids to school. This is not like the school lunch system here and not in every school. Most people who can afford go to private school and they buy lunch at the cafeteria or they carry lunch.

Last year in June this was happening in a Southern Indian city

https://www.cnn.com/2019/06/20/india/chennai-water-crisis-intl-hnk/index.html

So how do you social distance then when you have to come to street for water whoever you are unless you are very rich ? 

I can go on and on about what is there. Basically it is practically impossible for the lockdown to continue. At some point if people erupt and they will, it will be the most desperate because they have no choice, government will basically do what they did in Kashmir recently. They will try to keep law and order and that may include turning off the internet. Like this

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/14/technology/india-kashmir-internet.html

So that is my fear. Violence. Cutting off access to information. Things that are inherent based on a social system that is setup to survive and most basically do. For them it requires an open society. If you ask me why two weeks ago, I was all shut down, shut down, shut down only with no thought about something like this, it is because I only thought about my family all over the world. We are better placed wherever we are. The truth and if you say that is a very selfish attitude, that is also true. 

The reality that forced me to change my opinion was these. I cannot hide my head under the sand and pretend protesting people are selfish partiers even in America. People are doing so because they are desperate which will only grow. We need to find a way to cure this disease fast, not live in shutdown for the foreseeable future with government doling out money. In most societies, it cannot be done and starvation, riots are a real possibility. 

 

Would ending the shut down in India help the people in the lower castes?

What would that look like? 

People would employ the untouchables more now than usual?  Would it improve their situation to be untouchable by caste and perhaps also feared as virus carriers? 

 

The article you linked indicates that they are already largely in work categories deemed essential—but stopped from going to grocery store.  By other people it seems.  Does that magically end with an open up rule?  Does an official end to lockdown mean people say to Palomma now you are welcome to come down hill to grocery store? Or here is milk for your family? 

 

(ETA: if there were actually food drops into Palomma’s Untouchable slum community, would higher caste people actually rush in there to take it?  And, again, even if so, this seems to be a problem that isn’t going to be helped by “opening up” the lock down.) 

I have never been to India, but based on your post itself, including the cnn link, it Seems to me that with Opening Up starvation and riots would still be likely —along with higher rate of infection spread. 

Not that long ago I read that Indian doctors were being put out on the streets because landlords feared infection.   

Could you explain how an Open Up policy would help now? 

Obviously at some point everywhere will need to implement very careful approaches to opening.

Or perhaps if they have no functional medical and other such systems in first place like I have heard about Malawi for example, they never shut down and just let people get sick without intervention. 

Edited April 21, 2020 by Pen

[Jean in Newcastle]

17 minutes ago, Danae said:

The sense in which I think the individual US states should be treated more like separate countries is in comparing curves and figuring out where we are on the curve. New York’s numbers are going to drive US reporting, and it looks like they may have peaked. But the Dakotas are just starting to see the results of widespread community transmission. They’re about a month behind, so even if overall US numbers are going down soon they should expect their statewide numbers to continue to rise. Which probably won’t make much difference to an international observer, but is pretty important internally.

Piggybacking off of what you said:  I agree that different states (and even counties within a state) are going to have different curves. But while interstate travel is down, its not nonexistent. And as things open up, travel is going to resume even more. I actually wish that the states were more like countries in that borders could actually be closed tighter. 

[frogger]

1 hour ago, Pen said:

 

 

 

I don’t think I understand what you are getting at.

Lots of people work on cruise ships, for airlines, at amusement parks, in theaters, in professional sports industry... many situations  that tend to enable rapid viral spread have many employees as well as many customers.  

 

 

Sorry, I thought you were saying it was because people wanted "fun" stuff because this came before it.

2 hours ago, Pen said:

And irl what I see and hear, it isn’t about getting back to work, it’s about playing, basically. 

 

A lot of this is fun stuff but if it was your paycheck it would hurt more.  That's all. 

[SKL]

14 minutes ago, Dreamergal said:

 

My strength has always been prepare and I guess survive as an individual and a family. I've been brought up like that. If you ask me how to protect my family now, I will tell you exactly what we do. It works like clockwork constantly changing as needed. Extreme even. I've cooked, stocked and even prepared my 13 year old oldest to take over if my husband and I are hospitalized as much as I can. My husband and my goal in all this is if I don't survive I will do my best to see if my kid does.  It's the only way I have known because my parents are that way. It's like a banana tree, it spawns it's young and then dies. It sounds extreme, but that is how I have always operated, prepare a lot and pray. The reason for all this rambling is I am giving a clue towards my mindset. In all probability we will survive. It is inherent because I am privileged in anywhere I live. Now nobody handed anything to me, my parents sacrificed extremely to get me here, I studied hard. But still it is a life of privilege and choices and we are middle class, not rich. I was never desperate though I may think I was. 

Now let me give a glimpse into the mindset of someone who is desperate.

 

What I found extraordinary was seeing this on CNN from Nigeria.

https://www.cnn.com/videos/world/2020/04/21/nigeria-africa-coronavirus-covid-19-lockdown-restrictions-livelihood-busari-lkl-intl-ldn-vpx.cnn/video/playlists/coronavirus-intl/

These men have never met. But in their lives, the choices are already prone to disease, starvation or COVID. How do you ask these people to social distance ? You cannot. The only solution I can offer is figuring out how to cure this disease, something with a possibility. That is the path I see. Certain prevention will come with a vaccine, that can wait and all those countries will force their population to have one like they already do. No choice like in America. I never even knew people had a choice in a vaccine till I came here.

I have never been grateful much, but this has forced me to see my privilege The things that have always dazzled me in America are the wide roads, the clean streets, the way information flows, trees, how much is done for disabled people, the education system, air quality, water. Even quarantine is better in America. So yeah, my solution will always be a cure. Find a cure fast, even imperfect so people can go on living their lives, even miserable because a shutdown is certain death for a vast number of people in the world.

Thanks for this.  My best friend has a similar background and reports many sad things - not yet from the illness itself but from the crackdown at this point.  It is practically impossible for us in the USA to comprehend.  I've been to India a few times so I can picture it up to a point.  I just pray that the people there have some immunity or something so that it spares most and ends soon.