Protests

[rebcoola]

Anyone else having protests?  We had one yesterday to open fishing and another today against all regulations.  Their was also one at the state capital.  Our town is not unaffected actually I believe we are now the worst in Washington per capital.

[Carol in Cal.]

There are several places with protests here in NORCAL.

Mostly they are doing social distancing, from what I have heard.

I have some sympathy for the MI ones, but the local ones don't seem quite right to me.  Rights are to be balanced, and I think that the SIP so far here has been appropriate.

However, I am increasingly disturbed by the folks who favor SIP who actually are proud of hoping that the protesters will get sick and die.  That is so utterly OTT and repugnant to me.  There is an element of class warfare in it for some, clearly, and also an element of left virtue signalling (by hoping their enemies die) vs. right going too far (IMO) in demanding/asserting rights.  People are doubling down on these positions in a way and to an extent that seems like only a Civil War could possibly be the result.  Very concerning.  And so freaking immature.

[rebcoola]

I was ok with the fishing one.  They have a point and they social distanced.    The one to end restrictions people are all grouped up on the sidewalks.

[MercyA]

Yes, 200 people congregated outside our governor's residence in Indianapolis to protest. It makes me angry. I am apolitical, but I think the governor has done a good job actually trying to protect citizen's lives.

I liked the governor's neighbor's response to the protest: ""I'm no [conservative radio host], so I'm absolutely sure I cannot change a single mind over there," he said. "But I just wish we could rise to a world some day where people could think better for themselves and make more educated decisions — maybe based on science or factual information."

[HSMWB]

I am a bit impressed we as a country have gone this long without ‘major’ protests actually.  I really do think we are getting to the end of the ability of most people to continue to SIP without universal income and more support.  I think the fishing protests were a prime example of the gov having gone ‘too far’.  Fishing can be done while social distancing for instance.  I don’t wish anyone ill-will.

[TCB]

1 hour ago, kand said:

We had a big one here, with more than a thousand people all squeezed together in a big crowd. It’s pretty upsetting to me, because we have done really well here with people being good about staying home and taking social distancing seriously. As a result, we have had success flattening the curve, and look well on our way to starting to be able to consider opening some things back up in a few weeks. I’m afraid after these idiots’ actions, we’re going to have a big upward surge in cases again and have to start all over 😥. So selfish , short-sighted and irresponsible. 

It makes me really nervous that a huge outbreak will come out of these. I really hope not!

[rebcoola]

It's frustrating here our state curve is flattening but my county is doing their best to ruin that. Our county is doing the worst at social distancing in the state.   Our restrictions are not that bad although a few seem random. I'm pretty sure my DH and oldest Daughter have covid but can't get testing and my daughter is just doing well enough to stay out of the hospital.  Even people I think should know better are being stupid like not knowing if someone in the family is sick they should order groceries instead of going to the store.

[Carrie12345]

5 hours ago, Fifiruth said:

This week he said that until we can have testing centers in every single one of the 65 counties, we’re not going to open. Yeah, so I’m thinking, even the ones inhabited by 200 people and 5000 heads of cattle?

This veers off the topic, but maybe you can help me understand areas like that.

If a wide open town has, say, 200 people and no cases, where do they want to go that they cannot now? Does a town of 200 have a movie theater? Sports stadium? Olive Garden? Their own school district?

Or do they want to be able to go into *other towns, where *more people congregate, and that 200 number is no longer a valid argument?

Or is it just about visiting Grandma around the corner?  In some places, that wouldn’t bother me very much, but I may be getting desensitized by both my neighbors having people in and out of their houses these past few weeks.

[Guest]

Yes, there was a protest this past weekend in our capital city, by Re-Open Maryland. AFAIK, everyone remained in their cars, blowing the horns, hoisting their flags from the back of pick up trucks. I snoozed a friend on FB because she “admired the patriotism” displayed. It makes me so mad...I just can’t see that kind of sentiment expressed. 

I also know there’s this narrative going on that assumes we “all” have had Coronavirus circulating around here for a long time, maybe years and are therefore immune. The ignorance in that statement makes me furious! By way of “proof,” someone I know posted a picture of a purportedly old Lysol bottle that says it kills “Human Coronavirus” on the label. Which proves nothing whatsoever, even if it does say that, but jut FTR, I looked on my own years-old bottle of Lysol spray and Coronavirus is not one of the listed viruses. 

[TracyP]

1 hour ago, Carrie12345 said:

This veers off the topic, but maybe you can help me understand areas like that.

If a wide open town has, say, 200 people and no cases, where do they want to go that they cannot now? Does a town of 200 have a movie theater? Sports stadium? Olive Garden? Their own school district?

Or do they want to be able to go into *other towns, where *more people congregate, and that 200 number is no longer a valid argument?

Or is it just about visiting Grandma around the corner?  In some places, that wouldn’t bother me very much, but I may be getting desensitized by both my neighbors having people in and out of their houses these past few weeks.

In my area, they want their bar/restaurant/cafe to open. I saw a bar owner shouting at a police officer 3 weeks ago, and I just felt sick. Frustration levels are so high for these small business owners. 

[gingersmom]

They have the right to protest and my daughter who is a nurse (treating covid 19 patients) should have the right to refuse to treat them if they should get sick.

While they are protesting to go to gym/beach/restaurants healthcare workers are self isolating at home or staying at hotels to lessen chance of infecting their families.

I think they should all be forced to spend a day in the hospital and see what it’s like to be asked by patients “am I going to die’”.

Edited April 20, 2020 by gingersmom

[elegantlion]

3 hours ago, TracyP said:

In my area, they want their bar/restaurant/cafe to open. I saw a bar owner shouting at a police officer 3 weeks ago, and I just felt sick. Frustration levels are so high for these small business owners. 

We've been fortunate that small business owners in our town have bandied together to provide alternatives to yelling at the police. Local restaurants are doing curbside or delivery, specialty shops are heavily promoting on facebook and doing personal front door deliveries. Even the bars are selling from their beer stock (no open containers) for curbside pickup. Even the antique stores are offering delivery. Not every business can survive this way, but it is good to see the unique marketing many are embracing. 

[ScoutTN]

There was a protest here yesterday. People lining a downtown street with signs and hollering about freedom. Others driving by and honking.

Not responsible or helpful. No SD and no sense. Not the way to address economic or first Amendment concerns.

Our governor and his team are trying to figure out how to help the economic situation without creating a healthcare disaster. So far heathcare facilities in our state have not been overwhelmed. Some are busy, others are laying people off. 

Edited April 20, 2020 by ScoutTN

[Bootsie]

6 minutes ago, elegantlion said:

We've been fortunate that small business owners in our town have bandied together to provide alternatives to yelling at the police. Local restaurants are doing curbside or delivery, specialty shops are heavily promoting on facebook and doing personal front door deliveries. Even the bars are selling from their beer stock (no open containers) for curbside pickup. Even the antique stores are offering delivery. Not every business can survive this way, but it is good to see the unique marketing many are embracing. 

However, these practices are not always possible, depending upon local laws.  A bar may have a license to sell liquor to be consumed on the premises, but the liquor is not allowed to cross a boundary.  Not everywhere is allowing restaurants to do curbside pick up or delivery.

[Pen]

10 hours ago, kand said:

There were two things here that didn’t sound right, so I looked for some more info, and Colorado’s case numbers are described on their Department of Health website as being a combination of two numbers:

*The number of cases includes people who have had a test that indicated they were positive for COVID-19. The number of cases also includes epidemiologically-linked cases -- or cases where public health epidemiologists have determined that infection is highly likely because a person exhibited symptoms and had close contact with someone who tested positive. The number of epidemiologically-linked cases represents a very small portion of the reported cases.

So, They are not counting people with no test results as being positive cases unless they are clearly linked to a case that tested positive and have symptoms themselves. And they say this accounts for a small portion of the positive cases. It seems like a happy thing that the surge hasn’t been as bad as predicted. I keep hearing people who seem to be upset that the strategies are working, or that there are still empty hospital beds. Of course, this is exactly what we were told ahead of time: that if it works, people will be upset and say they overreacted.

The other thing in your post that you should be happy to see is not actually true, is that your governor is not saying that you’re not going to open for years. I’m seeing lots of new stories published in the last day or two saying he will be speaking tomorrow on beginning to make some steps to start opening some things on April 27. 
Eta: I forgot to give a link: https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/polis-hints-colorado-on-track-to-partially-open-economy-this-month/ar-BB12QA8n

It sounds like maybe someone’s been passing along news that’s not accurate to make it sound like Colorado is being mismanaged. Perhaps the same kind of people that are doing these protests? 🤷‍♀️

 

2 hours ago, Fifiruth said:

 

I get my info from listening to him myself each time he has a press conference.

Also, you have to look at the data being released by the hospitals. They were supposed to test each person admitted with flu-like symptoms, but there is a column for “admitted and tested” and another one for “admitted with symptoms but not tested.” The state uses the figure with those two columns added together as their Covid 19 count for hospitalizations. The last time I looked, the non-test-confirmed admissions were nearly 30% of the total count.

 

 

It looks like the correct figure is 3% — not 30%.

As of a few moments ago, 297 cases are being counted as positive without testing out of 9730 total. 

9433 are positive based on a test. 

Glancing down the tables there has never been a time when it looks like it was 30% or even in that order of magnitude 

https://covidtracking.com/data/state/colorado#historical

Edited April 20, 2020 by Pen
Link added

[teachermom2834]

32 minutes ago, elegantlion said:

We've been fortunate that small business owners in our town have bandied together to provide alternatives to yelling at the police. Local restaurants are doing curbside or delivery, specialty shops are heavily promoting on facebook and doing personal front door deliveries. Even the bars are selling from their beer stock (no open containers) for curbside pickup. Even the antique stores are offering delivery. Not every business can survive this way, but it is good to see the unique marketing many are embracing. 

This is what is happening in my area too but I think there are some states or counties that are not allowing even these services. 

We actually just got wine in grocery stores a couple years ago and just recently allowed liquor stores in our town. But given the circumstances, local authorities have put in an executive order allowing alcohol delivery and take out curbside. While nothing is remotely funny about this whole situation, the fact that my little Bible belt town now allows drive thru margaritas is at least a little amusing. 

[Carrie12345]

2 minutes ago, teachermom2834 said:

. While nothing is remotely funny about this whole situation, the fact that my little Bible belt town now allows drive thru margaritas is at least a little amusing. 

I was just thinking the other night that I’d love a drive through bar, lol. Some people can’t cook; I can’t mix decent drinks most of the time.

[regentrude]

nm

Edited April 20, 2020 by regentrude

[TracyP]

42 minutes ago, elegantlion said:

We've been fortunate that small business owners in our town have bandied together to provide alternatives to yelling at the police. Local restaurants are doing curbside or delivery, specialty shops are heavily promoting on facebook and doing personal front door deliveries. Even the bars are selling from their beer stock (no open containers) for curbside pickup. Even the antique stores are offering delivery. Not every business can survive this way, but it is good to see the unique marketing many are embracing. 

Obviously yelling at police is never a good solution. It was tough to see. In a town with a population of 216, the police and business owners know each other fairly well. And I know the police don't enjoy enforcing the shutdown. It's just tough all around... Alcohol has not been allowed as part of curbside pickup at bars/restaurants here. A bill passed on Friday allowing curbside pickup of alcohol so hopefully that will help to ease some of the pain in this particular situation.

[historically accurate]

49 minutes ago, Bootsie said:

However, these practices are not always possible, depending upon local laws.  A bar may have a license to sell liquor to be consumed on the premises, but the liquor is not allowed to cross a boundary.  Not everywhere is allowing restaurants to do curbside pick up or delivery.

What area doesn't allow any curbside pick up or delivery? Just curious, I haven't heard of anywhere completely forbidding it. I've heard of restaurants and small shops allowing customers inside and then getting shut down. 

 

Here in IL, they protested yesterday, not all in cars and blocking a sidewalk and talking back to the police.  https://www.sj-r.com/news/20200419/tensions-run-high-briefly-over-protest-at-capitol  In the article, one person claims they should open counties where everyone is healthy. Here's the map of Illinois' spread of coronavirus. https://coronavirus.illinois.gov/s/ There are 9 counties, 5 of which are islands completely surrounded by counties with cases, so yeah, it's everywhere. 

 

 

[TracyP]

3 minutes ago, beckyjo said:

What area doesn't allow any curbside pick up or delivery? Just curious, I haven't heard of anywhere completely forbidding it. I've heard of restaurants and small shops allowing customers inside and then getting shut down. 

 

Here in IL, they protested yesterday, not all in cars and blocking a sidewalk and talking back to the police.  https://www.sj-r.com/news/20200419/tensions-run-high-briefly-over-protest-at-capitol  In the article, one person claims they should open counties where everyone is healthy. Here's the map of Illinois' spread of coronavirus. https://coronavirus.illinois.gov/s/ There are 9 counties, 5 of which are islands completely surrounded by counties with cases, so yeah, it's everywhere. 

 

 

MN has not been allowing curbside alcohol sales by bars and restaurants. They are trying to change that although mixed drinks are still not going to be an option for us.

[TracyP]

6 minutes ago, Danae said:

It’s already changed. The law was signed last Friday.

I didn't hear it was signed yet. Thank you!!

[J-rap]

37 minutes ago, TracyP said:

MN has not been allowing curbside alcohol sales by bars and restaurants. They are trying to change that although mixed drinks are still not going to be an option for us.

Although liquor stores in MN have remained open throughout, and many have offered delivery options.  

[SKL]

I'm not the least bit surprised, and I agree with protesting some of the dumb rules they are making.  FTR I was not a participant nor was anyone I know, but this is still the USA.  I am positive on nonviolent protests where they took reasonable safety precautions and had an actual point.

It will be interesting to see what happens in Michigan, which has been hard hit by the virus.  Like NYC, they will probably be early on the herd immunity curve.  Will that balance things out?  Time will tell.

[PeterPan]

2 hours ago, gingersmom said:

They have the right to protest and my daughter who is a nurse (treating covid 19 patients) should have the right to refuse to treat them if they should get sick.

Hogwash. Doctors and medical personnel treat people all the time they disagree with.

[Farrar]

I don't appreciate all the slightly joking, but really not joking memes and things saying that medical folks shouldn't treat them if/when the protesters get sick or that they should sign away their ability to get treatment. That's not how medical ethics work.

It infuriates me that at some of these protests, there were large gatherings and they likely increased the spread of the virus in those cities. We have been inside for well over a month, following the rules, trying our hardest... and these folks are out there prolonging everyone's misery in the name of "freedom." Freedom to die.

The healthcare workers who blocked them in Colorado are my heroes today.

 

[TracyP]

31 minutes ago, J-rap said:

Although liquor stores in MN have remained open throughout, and many have offered delivery options.  

Yup. 

A poster responded that bars could sell beer for curbside pickup. Someone else said that wasn't allowed everywhere. Someone else asked where. I was saying that MN was one of those places.

Sorry for the explanation if you had followed all that... but yes liquor stores have remained open.

[Pen]

9 minutes ago, Fifiruth said:

 You’re still not looking at the right info.

My point was NOT about the total cases but, rather, the hospital admissions. They are saying that all admitted Covid patients are tested, but the hospital info posted last week clearly showed that HOSPITAL ADMISSIONS counted as CONFIRMED Covid 19 are NOT all being tested to a large degree.

If I run across the info again, I’ll post it on the forum. I’m getting this info, FYI, from the official state health website, which I check everyday when it posts the new figures at 4:00 pm. 

Please stop trying to “educate” and correct me. Regarding Colorado, you just don’t know what you’re talking about. Try finding videos of all of the governor’s past press conferences since early March and watch every one like I have, and then try to still tell me that he hasn’t said what I posted.

If what I posted looks “wrong”, that was kind of the point. I supported the governor for the first month, but he has lost my support over the last two weeks. 

It will be interesting to watch his next press conference, that’s for sure. 

 

 

 

Link please.  

Or screenshot with spot you want to focus on circled. 

[Bootsie]

1 hour ago, beckyjo said:

What area doesn't allow any curbside pick up or delivery? Just curious, I haven't heard of anywhere completely forbidding it. I've heard of restaurants and small shops allowing customers inside and then getting shut down. 

 

Here in IL, they protested yesterday, not all in cars and blocking a sidewalk and talking back to the police.  https://www.sj-r.com/news/20200419/tensions-run-high-briefly-over-protest-at-capitol  In the article, one person claims they should open counties where everyone is healthy. Here's the map of Illinois' spread of coronavirus. https://coronavirus.illinois.gov/s/ There are 9 counties, 5 of which are islands completely surrounded by counties with cases, so yeah, it's everywhere. 

 

 

In Texas restaurants and bars that serve food may temporarily sell alcohol to go with a food purchase.  I am not sure exactly how that is being interpreted, but I think it means that bars that are not licensed as food establishments are not able to sell alcohol to go. 

[TCB]

49 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

Hogwash. Doctors and medical personnel treat people all the time they disagree with.

That is true, but I can tell you that in my 34 years as an RN I have never been asked to look after people with a disease that is killing medical personnel in multiple countries like this. I'm super glad I didn't have to look after someone with Ebola, but that was an extremely limited exposure here thankfully. Are you putting your life on the line? Maybe less of the hogwash is called for if you aren't. Can you at least imagine the worry a mother must feel about their daughter? My parents are nervous for me and I hate for them to be so! They tell me to be very careful each time they know I am going in to work, and they pray for me throughout my shift. Fortunately I am somewhere with a manageable caseload and pretty good PPE. 

[Guest]

There was one here yesterday. Based on reports, it was a whole 6 people. We're a big medical center (medical school and multiple hospitals) and have been hit hard. Everyone knows someone on the front lines, if they are not there themselves, and most people know someone who has been seriously ill, even if not badly enough to be hospitalized. Of course, we also had shutdowns locally before the governor acted, and even if the state reopens, I suspect that the local mayor will keep the state of emergency in effect. 

[Joker]

I've seen pictures of the one here Saturday and it ticks me off. They were out in the street and definitely not distancing themselves from one another. Absolute idiots! No one can convince me what they were doing was in any way smart. I'm glad none of the governors seem that bothered by the protests (in terms of giving them what they want).

[Sneezyone]

1 hour ago, PeterPan said:

Hogwash. Doctors and medical personnel treat people all the time they disagree with.

Aaand there are some notable religious exemptions. Methinks folks wouldn’t like it if medical personnel started willy-nilly enforcing ‘an eye for an eye’ in accordance with state ‘conscience’ laws.

1 hour ago, PeterPan said:

Hogwash. Doctors and medical personnel treat people all the time they disagree with.

 

Doctors also "fire" patients from their practices all the time, too.

[Loowit]

4 minutes ago, GGardner said:

 

Doctors also "fire" patients from their practices all the time, too.

If I recall correctly, doctors cannot refuse emergency treatment.  Not wanting them as a patient is one thing, not giving them lifesaving treatment is another.

[Sneezyone]

8 minutes ago, Loowit said:

If I recall correctly, doctors cannot refuse emergency treatment.

Mmm...not so sure. PharmDs can refuse emergency treatment. So can Catholic hospitals.

[Pen]

1 hour ago, Fifiruth said:

 You’re still not looking at the right info.

My point was NOT about the total cases but, rather, the hospital admissions. They are saying that all admitted Covid patients are tested, but the hospital info posted last week clearly showed that HOSPITAL ADMISSIONS counted as CONFIRMED Covid 19 are NOT all being tested to a large degree.

If I run across the info again, I’ll post it on the forum. I’m getting this info, FYI, from the official state health website, which I check everyday when it posts the new figures at 4:00 pm. 

Please stop trying to “educate” and correct me. Regarding Colorado, you just don’t know what you’re talking about. Try finding videos of all of the governor’s past press conferences since early March and watch every one like I have, and then try to still tell me that he hasn’t said what I posted.

If what I posted looks “wrong”, that was kind of the point. I supported the governor for the first month, but he has lost my support over the last two weeks. 

It will be interesting to watch his next press conference, that’s for sure. 

 

 

 

You don’t want to be educated.  Ok 

help educate me.

Let us assume that all 297 cases that were considered positive without testing are people sick enough to be hospitalized—have ground glass opacities in lungs plus known CV19 contact or whatever that makes doctors pretty certain it is CV19 without a test. 

There apparently have been 1813 cumulative hospitalizations in Colorado.

297/1813 =  ~ 16%    Much higher than 3%, but much lower than  30%

 

Now, correct that if it is wrong.

And, what is the point you are trying to make whether it is 30% or 16%?

[J-rap]

1 hour ago, TracyP said:

Yup. 

A poster responded that bars could sell beer for curbside pickup. Someone else said that wasn't allowed everywhere. Someone else asked where. I was saying that MN was one of those places.

Sorry for the explanation if you had followed all that... but yes liquor stores have remained open.

Ah, I see.  Thanks for explaining!  (I think Minnesota is probably one of the few states where liquor isn't sold in grocery stores -- unless it's in its own store within a store, which is another thing somewhat unusual!)

[kbutton]

3 hours ago, Pen said:

It looks like the correct figure is 3% — not 30%.

As of a few moments ago, 297 cases are being counted as positive without testing out of 9730 total. 

9433 are positive based on a test. 

Glancing down the tables there has never been a time when it looks like it was 30% or even in that order of magnitude 

https://covidtracking.com/data/state/colorado#historical

There is an expanded diagnosis with guidance from the CDC. Ohio is using it--they refer to it as being from the CDC. I cannot find the information easily on the CDC site, but this article lists what is required (https://www.wtol.com/article/news/health/coronavirus/ohio-coronavirus-cases-latest/512-24d7fafa-acbd-4223-8e39-62c61af69487 ) : 

Quote

A person also will be counted in the "probable" category if the following conditions apply: 

Clinical and epidemiological evidence of COVID-19
When there is no other likely diagnosis, even if there is no lab test [This generally means negative testing for flu]
This means a doctor may determine if someone has COVID 19 based on his or her symptoms and a history of exposure to a positive case.

 

[sheryl]

This topic irks me that this is even a reality.  I spoke with a friend in Atlanta.   They are opposite of us politically; we respect each other's position and focus on what we do have in common.  We brought up protests.  I told her I saw a newsstory the other day that showed a group of people ticked off because they could not celebrate a baby's birthday!  She agreed when I said I don't care what party you support or color of your skin; this goes beyond constitutional right and there should be the attitude of someone "wanting" to help a fellow human being out here.  Protests are crazy and will not get  the job done.  Genuine dialog leading to resolution is what's needed.

[Valley Girl]

42 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

Mmm...not so sure. PharmDs can refuse emergency treatment. So can Catholic hospitals.

That usually comes up on the always-contentious abortion threads. In them, a significant number of posters usually make the argument that if you aren't willing to do everything for everybody regardless of your own belief/opinion/standards/whatever, you have no business being in medicine. So there's that, too.

[Sneezyone]

1 minute ago, Valley Girl said:

That usually comes up on the always-contentious abortion threads. In them, a significant number of posters usually make the argument that if you aren't willing to do everything for everybody regardless of your own belief/opinion/standards/whatever, you have no business being in medicine. So there's that, too.

Yep. I’m one of those people and still hold that view. I’m just surprised at seeing the fear/horror at the possibility treatment could be withheld to accommodate other deeply held beliefs.

[Valley Girl]

6 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

Yep. I’m one of those people and still hold that view. I’m just surprised at seeing the fear/horror at the possibility treatment could be withheld to accommodate other deeply held beliefs.

I'm one who tends to support a conscience clause on that issue (and maybe others such as euthenasia). However, I can certainly see where the waters can become very muddy very quickly when you bring in other examples. Anyway, I don't want to derail the thread because those are different topics.

[mathnerd]

3 hours ago, kand said:

I totally agree, but it goes so much farther than just the risk to themselves, as they are all going to be out in the grocery stores and other places, spreading around what they picked up while congregating in large groups. I wish all those that gathered in these large groups would now be required to quarantine for 14 days so they don’t make the cases in their counties spike back up. It’s so stupid of them, because they’ve just made it more likely that it will take longer to get case counts down where things can open up. So many places were headed that direction and these ding dongs may have messed it up for everyone. It makes me so mad. 

This is where the exponential growth in infections come from: people congregating because of reasons that are political, religious and recreational are going to carry coronavirus to their family, their neighborhood walmart, their fellow beach goers, their church members, their political affiliates. And from there, the virus is on its way to a few million people. Many people still claim that this is a "cold" virus: I have a few of them in my life, one of them actively persuading people to break SIP orders to take private lessons with her because "if you wash hands, it will be fine!".

Health care workers silently took a stand against protesters. Was this posted before?

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/health-care-workers-took-stand-against-protestors-opposing-coronavirus-lockdown-n1187711

 

[ScoutTN]

21 hours ago, Bootsie said:

However, these practices are not always possible, depending upon local laws.  A bar may have a license to sell liquor to be consumed on the premises, but the liquor is not allowed to cross a boundary.  Not everywhere is allowing restaurants to do curbside pick up or delivery.

Those laws are easily waived by a governor with powers that come with declaration of an emergency. Take out cocktails are popular with some of my neighbors! 

Edited April 21, 2020 by ScoutTN

[Pen]

53 minutes ago, kbutton said:

There is an expanded diagnosis with guidance from the CDC. Ohio is using it--they refer to it as being from the CDC. I cannot find the information easily on the CDC site, but this article lists what is required (https://www.wtol.com/article/news/health/coronavirus/ohio-coronavirus-cases-latest/512-24d7fafa-acbd-4223-8e39-62c61af69487 ) : 

 

 

And, of course, the emphasis on tests over clinical findings is historically fairly new in any case.  If people are going to say no case without a laboratory test is a case, we might conclude that there were zero or close to zero cases of small pox or polio etc, since most predated the ability to do a confirmation lab test . 

[Wheres Toto]

3 hours ago, SKL said:

I'm not the least bit surprised, and I agree with protesting some of the dumb rules they are making.  FTR I was not a participant nor was anyone I know, but this is still the USA.  I am positive on nonviolent protests where they took reasonable safety precautions and had an actual point.

It will be interesting to see what happens in Michigan, which has been hard hit by the virus.  Like NYC, they will probably be early on the herd immunity curve.  Will that balance things out?  Time will tell.

Except many of these protests are not taking reasonable safety precautions at all.

I saw one reference to a protest here in NJ.   I'm really hoping it's just the astro-turfing and nobody else shows up.   EVERYBODY around here knows somebody who has been sick, many know somebody who died or at least has a connection to somebody who had a loved one die, many work in healthcare, many have loved ones in nursing homes having serious problems right now.  It's very very REAL around here.   I don't see how anyone could ignore what's happening enough to show up for a protest.

 

[Sneezyone]

I could almost get on board with someone single and living alone wearing a signboard saying “I am trying to get COVID. I have no idea if I have it.” At least the people around him/her would have fair warning, of course that should also be hashtagged DNR for the safety of medical professionals. It’s just another possible form of suicide.

Edited April 20, 2020 by Sneezyone

[regentrude]

People certainly have the right to protest, but while they are doing so, they do not have the right to ignore the social distancing orders that are in place. People congregating in violation of the order are putting not just themselves, but the entire community  at risk, and are potentially causing a strain on already strained healthcare resources. Their constitutional right to assemble and have free speech does not supersede other people's right not to be infected. 
IMO, they should be fined if they violate the existing orders.

You can protest and make your opinion heard without being an idiot. You might be taken more seriously if you demonstrate concern for others.

Edited April 20, 2020 by regentrude

[Loowit]

2 minutes ago, StellaM said:

 

Medical staff actually have a duty of care to themselves, as well as to their patients. (I don't know about the US, but it's an actual legal thing here).

There are circumstances (not 'you got the virus willfully ignoring social distancing measures') where treatment can be refused on those grounds. 

For example, if there is no PPE, or the PPE is inadequate. 

 

 

I understand what you are saying and that makes sense.

I guess I was assuming that they were talking about doctors and nurses in hospitals with the proper equipment refusing emergency treatment solely based on them having been at a protest.  I am also not sure how they would know that someone was a protester, unless perhaps they came to the ER with their protest sign.