If you’re in Michigan

[OH_Homeschooler]

34 minutes ago, EmseB said:

Maybe a lot of them do...but again, if we're talking about people being cry babies about staying home I think maybe look Medicmom's current thread about what she's seeing as a first responder. I think being okay with being locked down is some kind of privilege. I enjoy it, frankly, but I have that luxury.

Or we could just write everyone off as dimwitted maga head crybaby morons who are just upset they have to be at home and can't buy a boat in the snow. I doubt that is the wisest approach for elected officials to take but I've never held office, so 🤷. 

 

I specifically saw people from the protest whining because they can't buy paint or go get their hair colored. Those were their stated reasons for protesting. They were surrounded by people wearing MAGA hats. 

Do you really think a woman's desire to get her hair colored is more important than her neighbor's desire to avoid dying from a very contagious virus? That is NOT what Medicmom's thread is about. At all. 

ETA: I'm not saying it's easy to live through a quarantine. I know it's hard, because I'm doing it. I'm a single mom who started a NEW job this week, and I can't even be at work to receive training. This is also the week my kids' schools decided to take a more involved approach to doing school online at home, and that sure makes it hard for me as a mom to concentrate on learning about my new job because my 7 year old isn't proficient in completing complicated online modules on her own. And I don't have another single adult in my home who can assist. I'm also prone to depression and anxiety and one of my big ways of relaxing is to wander around a store like Marshall's and just see what's there. It IS hard. I randomly burst into tears sometimes.

But as I told my youngest, as hard as it is to be stuck at home all the time, I'd much rather do that than for her to be in the hospital for two weeks with no visitors. Even she could understand that argument.

Edited April 16, 2020 by OH_Homeschooler

[mathnerd]

1 hour ago, Arctic Mama said:

And yet somehow this isn’t a massive issue in Ohio.  Honestly she is making problems needlessly with this.  Micromanaging people’s shopping habits even further is just pissing people off and looking like a despot, when somehow Florida and Texas and California and North Carolina and Kentucky can manage it.  What seems to be controlling infections rates are when things closed down, poverty factors, pre existing conditions, etc.  Not the garden center.

As I said earlier on this thread, stricter lockdowns have existed for much longer in other states and we are keeping the emergency rooms from being flooded by staying at home. Not going out saves lives and that is a fact. It is even more important to stay home in MI if that state has more people with preexisting conditions as you seem to suggest. We can all go out and visit garden centers, clothing boutiques, nail salons and boating venues much sooner if we stay home now and bring down the number of deaths.

As for garden centers and buying seeds, my entire county shut down nurseries as non-essential and I am ordering seeds online from wherever they are available - and then found out that my local grocery stores have seed racks that are full and have many organic varieties as well. I actually ordered some seeds from MIGardener who is based in MI and shipped seeds to me in CA! 

[Corraleno]

8 minutes ago, SpecialClassical said:

Perhaps someone has answered you, but I’ll answer anyway.  I am a Michigander. That is right.  However, in her address to Michigan the day she handed down the new restrictions she very clearly said that if you aren’t going to the store for medicine, groceries or other essentials you should stay home. It caused a lot of confusion. Many of her restrictions have been confusing, or arbitrary as in the case of lottery tickets and liquor stores being essential.  I’m speaking objectively as a citizen that knows she has a hard job. 

Every single state allows liquor stores to be open, so that is clearly not an "arbitrary" decision by Whitmer. Don't all the profits from MI's lottery go to schools? Why would people want to cut millions in funding from schools at a time when they're going to need more funding than ever? Are there really thousands of people in MI who are going to leave home for no other reason than driving to a gas station or 7-11 just to buy a lottery ticket? Or do people buy one when they're getting gas or picking up snacks anyway? How many people per day go inside a gas station or 7-11 compared to how many go through the average Walmart?

Every single complaint I have seen about these restrictions is either based on misinformation (you can't buy seeds) or boils down to "Whitmer is letting people do things I don't approve of, like buying alcohol and lottery tickets, but not letting me do what I want, like getting my hair colored or buying clothes at Walmart."

[frogger]

Honestly, these protests are spawning protests up here (Alaska) and we have it EASY, very EASY and are already starting to open up sector by sector and have the tests to do so if we go sector by sector and a group wants to protest and screw everything up. Ignorance is so painful. I wish it would just affect them. Arghhh

[TCB]

4 hours ago, EmseB said:

Snow aside, if I lived in MN I'd be doing all my indoor planting for transplanting right about now.

But more generally, I see various issues with being stricter or more authoritarian based on citizens' behavior.

But also the defense of, "Well, this has to be done; it's a pandemic," used to justify almost anything gets us nowhere good pretty quickly. This is going to *be* a pandemic for a good long while. I have seen people say over and over again we can't sustain this level of lockdown for more than a couple months at most and we certainly aren't going to wait for a vaccine to lift SIP orders or open some things up. But it's also becoming increasingly clear that whenever things open up again the virus is going to spread again. All of the "but it's a pandemic" reasoning is going to apply 6 months from now, pessimistically speaking. I personally am increasingly skeptical that any kind of "dance" mitigation strategy is going to work even with widespread testing. I think this thing is going to be in various stages of surging in various cities and causing system overwhelm until we can vaccinate or get a good prophylactic treatment + good tests. Until then, people need good, clear communication from elected officials and they need to be able to trust them...and treating people like children, deserved or needed or not, does not do that. You end up with less buy-in and compliance, IMO, than you would have had otherwise, or some variation of a strict police enforcement. I don't think there are good answers (because it's a pandemic, lol) but I think you can definitely say some officials are doing better on the leadership and trust front than others.

That would be great if some people could be reasoned with. There is a section of the population who seem to refuse to use logic and look at what is happening in real time, and instead, have gone off on a political tangent wherein they appear to under value other people’s lives.

I probably should not reply on this thread, because I really know nothing about Michigan, but I have seen the same mindset where I live. Honestly, the people around here acting like this are the ones I would normally expect to be setting good examples to others, but in this instance it’s like they’ve gone mad, and the political part of their brain seems to be the only part they are now able to employ.

[OH_Homeschooler]

56 minutes ago, TCB said:

That would be great if some people could be reasoned with. There is a section of the population who seem to refuse to use logic and look at what is happening in real time, and instead, have gone off on a political tangent wherein they appear to under value other people’s lives.

I probably should not reply on this thread, because I really know nothing about Michigan, but I have seen the same mindset where I live. Honestly, the people around here acting like this are the ones I would normally expect to be setting good examples to others, but in this instance it’s like they’ve gone mad, and the political part of their brain seems to be the only part they are now able to employ.

 

Same here. A sort of fun weather page for my state on Facebook started doing a daily map of the state showing the spread of the virus. It was easy and uncomplicated at first, of course. But as the cases kept growing and the map became complicated, people (commenters) went nuts. Acting like the page was "hiding something" because they weren't publishing all the information they used to. And don't forget, this was a weather page, not some official health site. When I would suggest that the information people needed was readily available on the state's department of health page (obviously the best source of this information), I would be mocked or ignored. If someone said they were worried about their elderly neighbors, they were mocked. Many people continued to call it a hoax (even after a certain someone claimed he never said that), and kept asking if anyone actually knew anyone with the virus.

Our state has topped 25,000 cases and 1,000 deaths, most of which were in a 20 mile radius of where my elderly parents live. Today had the highest number of Covid-related deaths so far. I just don't find it funny. I tried to block everyone who would infuriate me with their harmful attitudes, but they kept multiplying. I had to leave the page or I'd just keep picking that scab. I have absolutely no patience left. Science deniers have pi**ed me off for a very, very long time. But this is actual life and death. 

It's really sad that some people need to experience the virus first-hand to understand that it is a real threat. Talk about black or white thinking: If I haven't experienced it, it must be fake. 

Edited April 16, 2020 by OH_Homeschooler

[Wheres Toto]

2 hours ago, Dotwithaperiod said:

 We can debate all day about their behaviors and reasons for that. My question is this

Why the heck aren’t these people out protesting the need for MORE. TESTING.

Protest that they need tests to determine who is asymptomatic, or ill, or have immunity. That’s the way, and the only way imo, they’ll be able to SAFELY get back in the stores, in their canoes, whatever they feel like they’re being denied. 

To me, they sound totally ignorant of what they need. Testing.

 They’d  rather wave their confederate flags, wear their maga caps, pass out candy to kids( yep, that’s a brainiac move right there) and bitch about some mean old lady who just wants to be the VP. Yet none of these anti-tyranny peeps thought about the serious lack of TESTING and how that continues to screw everyone. 

But hey, it plays perfectly into the reality sh!t show that we’re having to act in. 

According to Trump, we are doing more testing than any other country, including South Korea (mentioned SK specifically).  

[Corraleno]

10 minutes ago, Where's Toto? said:

According to Trump, we are doing more testing than any other country, including South Korea (mentioned SK specifically).  

That is true in absolute numbers, but per capita (which is what counts) we are way down the list, below most of Europe as well as Canada, Australia, NZ, and even Russia. 

[Wheres Toto]

Just now, Dotwithaperiod said:

 He says that because he knows how many do not understand per capita. My other theory is that his people try to explain per capital to him and he doesn’t listen, but then they say yes, sir, we’ve done more testing than anyone and so he takes that and runs with it. Every day, over and over and over.

I commented to dh that someone gave him a new script today, too bad he doesn't understand what he's saying.

 

[frogger]

Deleted Too political. Trying to control myself so the moderator doesn't have to.

Edited April 17, 2020 by frogger

[TracyP]

The U.S. started way behind on testing, but it looks like we are not so far behind most countries now. We are way behind Germany and Italy, but ahead of France and the UK. We are now testing very close to the same as South Korea, per capita.

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2020/3/13/21178289/confirmed-coronavirus-cases-us-countries-italy-iran-singapore-hong-kong

The testing part is all the way down at the bottom of the article.

[scholarly]

I am appalled at some of the misinformation circulating about Governor Whitmer's actions. You can absolutely get seeds here, even following the restrictions.  Many smaller places have them in store, you can get curb-side pick up, and, in Lansing, there is an organization who will mail you free seeds if you really want them!

The traffic to the hospital was absolutely affected by the rally. Do you know how close Sparrow Hospital is to the Capitol? When you stand in front of the hospital, you see the Capitol down at the end of the same street when you look to the right. In other words, the main road leading to the Capitol from the east also passes Sparrow Hospital. People I know that were in the rally, posting during it, were unconcerned that some of the routes to the hospital were blocked, because "other routes were open."  However, they didn't know which other routes were open and neither did anyone else who might need to get there! The concern isn't just if people were moving over for the ambulance, normal people also drive their cars to the hospital!

The people I know who were involved were (are) angry that their "freedoms" are being curtailed in any way, to the point that they felt it was appropriate to endanger other people's lives because they want to stay in BOTH their vacation home AND their main home over the course of a few weeks, instead of picking one to live in. One guy doesn't even golf, but went golfing anyway, just because he didn't like his "freedom" to do so being limited! (Also, to reiterate what was said upthread, it is still snowing, cold and windy.)

Also, if anyone wants insight into why people would protest even though the state has so many cases and so many deaths, it is because the vast burden of the numbers is concentrated in the Detroit Metro area. While I believe that Governor Whitmer's actions have helped prevent the virus from being so prevalent everywhere, others find it more easy to dismiss as Detroit's problem.

 

[OH_Homeschooler]

10 hours ago, scholarly said:

I am appalled at some of the misinformation circulating about Governor Whitmer's actions. You can absolutely get seeds here, even following the restrictions.  Many smaller places have them in store, you can get curb-side pick up, and, in Lansing, there is an organization who will mail you free seeds if you really want them!

 

I suspect willful ignorance.

[Dainty]

21 hours ago, EmseB said:

Nope. I am not a Trump supporter myself. Like I said earlier, I disagree politically with just about everything my governor stands for but I think he's done a good job wrt SIP and covid. I don't think Whitmer has and it isn't based on her sex or her political affiliation or her comments to or about the president. Making this a partisan issue or about identity politics is a miscalculation.

ETA: Also, welcome to the forum! Or not? Sorry, your little + thing by your name made me think you were new, but not your actual profile. Don't mind me! 😂

Thank you!  I wish I could change my username.  

[EmseB]

2 hours ago, OH_Homeschooler said:

 

I suspect willful ignorance.

I will let my MI friends know that People on the Internet think they are being dumb on purpose, lol.

13 hours ago, scholarly said:

I am appalled at some of the misinformation circulating about Governor Whitmer's actions. You can absolutely get seeds here, even following the restrictions.  Many smaller places have them in store, you can get curb-side pick up, and, in Lansing, there is an organization who will mail you free seeds if you really want them!

The traffic to the hospital was absolutely affected by the rally. Do you know how close Sparrow Hospital is to the Capitol? When you stand in front of the hospital, you see the Capitol down at the end of the same street when you look to the right. In other words, the main road leading to the Capitol from the east also passes Sparrow Hospital. People I know that were in the rally, posting during it, were unconcerned that some of the routes to the hospital were blocked, because "other routes were open."  However, they didn't know which other routes were open and neither did anyone else who might need to get there! The concern isn't just if people were moving over for the ambulance, normal people also drive their cars to the hospital!

The people I know who were involved were (are) angry that their "freedoms" are being curtailed in any way, to the point that they felt it was appropriate to endanger other people's lives because they want to stay in BOTH their vacation home AND their main home over the course of a few weeks, instead of picking one to live in. One guy doesn't even golf, but went golfing anyway, just because he didn't like his "freedom" to do so being limited! (Also, to reiterate what was said upthread, it is still snowing, cold and windy.)

Also, if anyone wants insight into why people would protest even though the state has so many cases and so many deaths, it is because the vast burden of the numbers is concentrated in the Detroit Metro area. While I believe that Governor Whitmer's actions have helped prevent the virus from being so prevalent everywhere, others find it more easy to dismiss as Detroit's problem.

 

This brings up a good point, though. Shouldn't restrictions and whatnot look different in Detroit than they do in the UP? I mean, there is a difference in epidemiology (probably not the right word, but go with it) for people who have to take public transportation to their apartment building from their job and can walk to the corner store than there is for the person who has to drive 30 minutes to town to get farm supplies and groceries to last them for two weeks because that's how often they go into town anyway in a normal month. You can say that like, oh they just think it's Detroit problem, but the way and rate the virus spreads in those two environments is vastly different.

[OH_Homeschooler]

Just now, EmseB said:

I will let my MI friends know that People on the Internet think they are being dumb on purpose, lol.

 

 

Well, then now I suspect you are displaying willful ignorance.

Are your friends the same ones acting like there's no possible way they can acquire seeds? Because that's specifically what I was addressing. 

[TracyP]

I'm curious. How is Whitmer communicating with the state? Does she hold daily briefings? Is she explaining her executive orders as she is releasing them? Does she seem to anticipate and address concerns that might be related to her orders? 

[Jean in Newcastle]

We praise Silveria Jacobs (PM St.Martin) for her no-nonsense approach to the pandemic ("If you don't have bread, eat crackers") but spoiled Americans can't figure out how to pivot and use the available resources to get supplies which are available even if it is not at their favorite Walmart. 

[Ottakee]

55 minutes ago, TracyP said:

I'm curious. How is Whitmer communicating with the state? Does she hold daily briefings? Is she explaining her executive orders as she is releasing them? Does she seem to anticipate and address concerns that might be related to her orders? 

Daily briefs but confusing and often conflicting orders with no explanation.  I think that well thought out and we'll explained orders (even if they were the same as we have now) would go over much better.

[EmseB]

1 hour ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

We praise Silveria Jacobs (PM St.Martin) for her no-nonsense approach to the pandemic ("If you don't have bread, eat crackers") but spoiled Americans can't figure out how to pivot and use the available resources to get supplies which are available even if it is not at their favorite Walmart. 

I have to admit that the disdain for fellow Americans and assumptions about their motives being entirely negative, whiny, moronic, etc. is surprising to me. Do any of you have friends who have legit issues with SIP orders or how they are being handled? I mean, I am all holed up and only going to do contact less grocery pickup, but I don't hold people who literally can't do that for whatever reason or who don't have my same standards in such contempt. I mean, maybe it's about more than not being able to go to one's favorite Walmart? Could it be that your perception of people you disagree with or assumptions about them are off? Are they all unreasonable and spoiled? I just ask because the people I know living somewhat rural in the upper Midwest or places like KY are not spoiled per se.

Edited April 17, 2020 by EmseB

[TracyP]

12 minutes ago, Ottakee said:

Daily briefs but confusing and often conflicting orders with no explanation.  I think that well thought out and we'll explained orders (even if they were the same as we have now) would go over much better.

Thanks. That's what it looks like from the outside. Even the posters here are asking each other for links and clarification. It seems hard to claim willful ignorance when there is so much confusion.

[Jean in Newcastle]

44 minutes ago, EmseB said:

I have to admit that the disdain for fellow Americans and assumptions about their motives being entirely negative, whiny, moronic, etc. is surprising to me. Do any of you have friends who have legit issues with SIP orders or how they are being handled? I mean, I am all holed up and only going to do contact less grocery pickup, but I don't hold people who literally can't do that for whatever reason or who don't have my same standards in such contempt. I mean, maybe it's about more than not being able to go to one's favorite Walmart? Could it be that your perception of people you disagree with or assumptions about them are off? Are they all unreasonable and spoiled?

??? Where in the world did you get that I was talking about all Americans. No, most of my friends and family, including in Michigan, are being reasonable. But they aren’t off protesting that they can’t plant seeds in the snow when they have other avenues for getting seeds etc.   And they aren’t bending over backwards trying to minimize things. 

Edited April 17, 2020 by Jean in Newcastle
typo

[GoodGrief]

21 hours ago, frogger said:

Honestly, these protests are spawning protests up here (Alaska) and we have it EASY, very EASY and are already starting to open up sector by sector and have the tests to do so if we go sector by sector and a group wants to protest and screw everything up. Ignorance is so painful. I wish it would just affect them. Arghhh

The only protest I'm aware of here has to do with crime downtown. Is there something else going on?

[Ottakee]

18 minutes ago, TracyP said:

Thanks. That's what it looks like from the outside. Even the posters here are asking each other for links and clarification. It seems hard to claim willful ignorance when there is so much confusion.

And the people I know locally that are frustrated are ones that want to get back to work.  A factory that makes thing a ma gings that are are shipped to Mexico is essential but a 1-2 man construction crew (often family members) are not allowed to work.  A single guy clearing trees and prepping for spring/summer can't work.  The boating thing was first it was Ok, then maybe, then non, then non motorized only, then ???  Many people in our area do fish for eating.  No, they will not starve if they don't fish.  It is just hard to justify telling someone in a county where there are NO cases that they can not go 1 mile down the road to the boat launch to fish but yet the liquor stores can be fully operational.  Almost everyone I know wants to be safe and protective, they just want to question the orders that make no sense.

[livetoread]

Michigan is in line with some other states on some things and stricter than others. They also have one of the worst outbreaks. I don’t think you can explain the protests as either Whitmer being ineffective or the protesters being ignorant hicks as someone suggested earlier. Maybe she could have justified things better, and maybe some things are a bit of an overreach, I don’t know. If so, there are other states that could be applicable to as well. They aren’t golfing in many states, including CA, where the weather actually allows for it. Is there anything she’s restricted that no other state has?
 

I believe the protests are targeted in this state for mostly political reasons, and are being fanned from the highest levels to divide and incite, consequences be d#@&*$. Political power is a higher priority than public safety in this circumstance. Like I said, she might not have done everything perfectly, but what she has done is not that out of line compared to other states. In Ohio, our gov wildly overestimated the number of people with the virus early on. He closed golf courses and then opened them soon after. He left churches open but yelled at them for meeting. Ohio is the 4th worst state in testing per capita. And yet, he has been widely praised (and rightly so I think) for closing things early and taking the risk seriously. Overall, he is being given the benefit of the doubt for his mistakes because his overall goal of keeping Ohioans safe is the highest priority. 
 

I think one can acknowledge that she might have done a better job communicating (maybe, I don’t know), while also acknowledging that there are organized political forces targeting her specifically, and those forces are purposefully sowing disinformation and feeding unrest. One can also acknowledge that women leaders are more easily painted in negative ways - ways their male counterparts can slide on. There are lots of moving parts to the situation, and I guess folks will differ on how big a role they see the parts playing (if they see the part at all.)

Are restrictions really so much worse in MI, and is she doing that much worse of a job communicating that it warrants this pushback apart from political opportunism? I’m not convinced. I do think there is a danger of power overreach in these situations, and it is a concern. But I don’t think MI needs “liberating” whatever that means, anymore than Ohio does.

[frogger]

17 minutes ago, GoodGrief1 said:

The only protest I'm aware of here has to do with crime downtown. Is there something else going on?

 

There is a group trying to get a copycat gridlock thing going on Facebook.  Search for Vehicle Protest in Anchorage on Facebook. 

 

 So far 157 people are interested.  Of course, they are saying stay in your cars etc but I'm not holding my breath.  It's crazy because we are starting to open up already.  They have never strictly enforced anything so it's not exacatly authoritarian. 

Most people I question who plan on going don't even know the plan.

[Joker]

People in Indiana are starting to get stupid too. There is supposed to be a protest at the Governor's mansion tomorrow. Today I saw a gathering of people at a nearby intersection with flags and signs. We had to get out for the first time in a while today to pick up an order and the people we encountered seem to not care at all about the virus.

We passed 500 deaths today and they seriously just don't care. 

1 hour ago, Ottakee said:

Daily briefs but confusing and often conflicting orders with no explanation.  I think that well thought out and we'll explained orders (even if they were the same as we have now) would go over much better.

Also from Michigan, I would say when the police can’t figure out the orders then they weren’t communicated very well.  There have been people getting tickets to have her turn around and say it was allowed.  I am pretty tired of the attitudes here that anyone who stands up for civil liberties and can acknowledge that there is more than one side to the story and might want to participate in discussion is off hand said to have blood on their hands, a moronic protester, or willfully ignorant.  I am fairly new to this forum and find it disgusting how many of you just want to insult those who disagree with your black and white stay in for the duration until there is never any sign of the virus opinion.  I am checking out because I thought this was a discussion board, not an insult others board.  I am surprised that this thread hasn’t been shut down. 

[TracyP]

8 minutes ago, Joker said:

People in Indiana are starting to get stupid too. There is supposed to be a protest at the Governor's mansion tomorrow. Today I saw a gathering of people at a nearby intersection with flags and signs. We had to get out for the first time in a while today to pick up an order and the people we encountered seem to not care at all about the virus.

We passed 500 deaths today and they seriously just don't care. 

Yeah, same in Minnesota. That's why I wonder about Whitmer's role. I don't actually like my current governor very much normally, but I think he's been an absolute rock star with his handling of covid. He has been clear and consistent in his messaging. He is opening nonessential work as long as social distancing can be maintained. He is opening golf courses and allowing fishing. I have no clue what people are protesting; it really looks like some combo of politics and stupidity. I think Michigan citizens have some legit complaints.

[scholarly]

1 hour ago, EmseB said:

I will let my MI friends know that People on the Internet think they are being dumb on purpose, lol.

This brings up a good point, though. Shouldn't restrictions and whatnot look different in Detroit than they do in the UP? I mean, there is a difference in epidemiology (probably not the right word, but go with it) for people who have to take public transportation to their apartment building from their job and can walk to the corner store than there is for the person who has to drive 30 minutes to town to get farm supplies and groceries to last them for two weeks because that's how often they go into town anyway in a normal month. You can say that like, oh they just think it's Detroit problem, but the way and rate the virus spreads in those two environments is vastly different.

Well, it would be nice if differentiating between the areas were possible. I assume that is how we are going to have to deal with the virus when we return to "normal" life. However, that is also why the restrictions regarding traveling back and forth between homes are necessary. To treat the UP separately, you have to restrict travel from the cities to the cottages up north. Right now the people in close contact with each other are on public transportation in Detroit. If you let people go up to the cottages, there will be crowds in little tiny grocery stores in podunk towns with few medical resources.  

I would also like to point out that Michigan has not demonstrated readiness for "opening up" even by the guidelines issued by the White House. Gov. Whitmer is following the recommendations even for phase one by minimizing non-essential travel. Vacation homes, motorboats, golfing trips- all seem to be non-essential travel. She's following the rules!  I suppose that people may think travel only applies to going to other states or something?

 

[Joker]

1 minute ago, TracyP said:

Yeah, same in Minnesota. That's why I wonder about Whitmer's role. I don't actually like my current governor very much normally, but I think he's been an absolute rock star with his handling of covid. He has been clear and consistent in his messaging. He is opening nonessential work as long as social distancing can be maintained. He is opening golf courses and allowing fishing. I have no clue what people are protesting; it really looks like some combo of politics and stupidity. I think Michigan citizens have some legit complaints.

Yeah, I didn't vote for my governor but I think he's been handling this well. I don't understand it at all.

[Valley Girl]

49 minutes ago, Mom2mthj said:

Also from Michigan, I would say when the police can’t figure out the orders then they weren’t communicated very well.  There have been people getting tickets to have her turn around and say it was allowed.  I am pretty tired of the attitudes here that anyone who stands up for civil liberties and can acknowledge that there is more than one side to the story and might want to participate in discussion is off hand said to have blood on their hands, a moronic protester, or willfully ignorant.  I am fairly new to this forum and find it disgusting how many of you just want to insult those who disagree with your black and white stay in for the duration until there is never any sign of the virus opinion.  I am checking out because I thought this was a discussion board, not an insult others board.  I am surprised that this thread hasn’t been shut down. 

A thick skin is pretty much a necessity. Hope you decide to stick around!

[EmseB]

2 hours ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

??? Where in the world did you get that I was talking about all Americans. No, most of my friends and family, including in Michigan, are being reasonable. But they aren’t off protesting that they can’t plant seeds in the snow when they have other avenues for getting seeds etc.   And they aren’t bending over backwards trying to minimize things. 

ETA: By fellow Americans, I meant Americans you disagree with about protesting, not all Americans 

 

Well, this is an example. No one is planting seeds in the snow. Of course they aren't! People do plant indoors this time of year for transplanting. So whether or not they have to go to multiple stores or different than a usual source or whatever, I feel like this is a real example of taking someone's concern, legit or not, and just making it into a nothing burger to make them seem foolish. I am trying not to read too much into your post, but you seem to be saying that a reasonable person would not be protesting. Anyone who is off protesting is unreasonable and minimizing the situation?

I say this because the one person I can think of off the top of my head who would go to Walmart for seeds to start is my elderly grandpa. He would then travel around to find whatever he needed at whatever store and put himself more at risk. He is not spoiled or ignorant or whiny. He is not going to use an app or call for curbside pickup. He is 86 years old. He starts a garden to eat the food it produces and save money, not for a fun hobby. The people I know who object to some of the aspects of different SIP orders have concerns like this. They aren't minimizing anything and are concerned for the high risk in their life who don't have the option of sourcing stuff creatively. Maybe they are misinformed about the true nature of the orders and what can or can't be done. I guess I don't know.

But I guess it depends on where you get your news or who is represented in what you read about protestors. I know one person who protested in Lansing. The rest of the handful of people in know in MI are quietly phoning or writing their reps and are being lumped in as people who want to plant seeds in the snow and go boating on ice. That is the point...there is no possibility given that I am seeing in people's posts here that anyone who is protesting could possibly have a legitimate case.

Edited April 17, 2020 by EmseB

[skimomma]

I live in MI and have avoided contributing to this thread because I am furious at the protestors.  I will refrain from sharing my opinions about who is behind these protests and the politics involved.  But being one of the rare souls that actually lives in the UP, I would like to address the comments about why having different policies by area does NOT make sense.  

First we DO have it up here.  The numbers are very low but we also have almost NO access to testing so there really is no telling how wide-spread it is.

Our hospitals cannot handle this.  I promise.  The few cases we have had have been transported out of our area for this reason.  As bad as things might be downstate, I would much rather be there if I need medical attention than here....even in the best of times.

With great dismay, we are seeing lots of people traveling here to get out of hot spots or to simply enjoy their "time off."  People are moving into their summer homes and cabins despite the requests to not do so.  They simply do not care and the locals are noticing.  I would not be surprised if hostility breaks out against these people.  

Literally no one I know IRL up here has a problem with the restrictions despite the fact that golfing or fishing or boating would be very low risk in our area.  Our governor is doing her best even if I do not agree with her politically.  I am quite sure there are many people up here who do have a problem with it all....I just do not know them.  But despite this, they are not running around with guns and protest signs in front of a HOSPITAL because frankly, this is not the time.  Write your reps, do online petitions/demos, whatever, but don't do things that spread the disease or put others at risk.

Yes, the restrictions are confusing but not nearly as confusing as people are making them out to be.  The whole "can't buy seeds" crap is seriously dumb.  A trip to any hardware store, feed store, or even most grocery stores will disprove that complaint.  I have witnessed first hand the behavior that the tighter rules are meant to curb....unnecessary shopping, browsing, etc.....  Perhaps we would still have the garden and paint sections open if people could have been a bit more responsible.  But they weren't and we have a sizable number of people running around claiming this is all a hoax (thanks, POTUS) so now we can't have nice things.

None of this is fun for our governor.....or any governor.  I cannot imagine even what people think she gets out of having to slap restrictions on everyone.  Does anyone really think it is her goal to take away your freedoms?  That does not even make sense.

 

 

[Jean in Newcastle]

16 minutes ago, EmseB said:

ETA: By fellow Americans, I meant Americans you disagree with about protesting, not all Americans 

 

Well, this is an example. No one is planting seeds in the snow. Of course they aren't! People do plant indoors this time of year for transplanting. So whether or not they have to go to multiple stores or different than a usual source or whatever, I feel like this is a real example of taking someone's concern, legit or not, and just making it into a nothing burger to make them seem foolish. I am trying not to read too much into your post, but you seem to be saying that a reasonable person would not be protesting. Anyone who is off protesting is unreasonable and minimizing the situation?

I say this because the one person I can think of off the top of my head who would go to Walmart for seeds to start is my elderly grandpa. He would then travel around to find whatever he needed at whatever store and put himself more at risk. He is not spoiled or ignorant or whiny. He is not going to use an app or call for curbside pickup. He is 86 years old. He starts a garden to eat the food it produces and save money, not for a fun hobby. The people I know who object to some of the aspects of different SIP orders have concerns like this. They aren't minimizing anything and are concerned for the high risk in their life who don't have the option of sourcing stuff creatively. Maybe they are misinformed about the true nature of the orders and what can or can't be done. I guess I don't know.

But I guess it depends on where you get your news or who is represented in what you read about protestors. I know one person who protested in Lansing. The rest of the handful of people in know in MI are quietly phoning or writing their reps and are being lumped in as people who want to plant seeds in the snow and go boating on ice. That is the point...there is no possibility given that I am seeing in people's posts here that anyone who is protesting could possibly have a legitimate case.

This thread was started about a specific protest so it seems like a no brainer that I was referring to that specific protest. 
 

Families can come to the aid of elderly members who have a harder time pivoting during the time of a pandemic. I know that we have for my 95 year old mom. If your grandpa needs seeds then send him some or order some with his address as the delivery address. You have that freedom. 

[EmseB]

33 minutes ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

This thread was started about a specific protest so it seems like a no brainer that I was referring to that specific protest. 
 

Families can come to the aid of elderly members who have a harder time pivoting during the time of a pandemic. I know that we have for my 95 year old mom. If your grandpa needs seeds then send him some or order some with his address as the delivery address. You have that freedom. 

I was also referring to that specific protest. I apologize for being unclear. That was my point... your posts seem to indicate you thought all of the protestors were unreasonable.

Thanks for the condescension re how to help my own grandpa, but not all eldery have people in their lives to care for them. That is the larger point. Those who are older or at risk always fall through the cracks and even more so in a crisis when any concern about them is hand-waved away as, well, just take care of them.

On a larger level I truly do not understand the animosity and rancor around this. It seems, generally, that one can't be in disagreement with any way that any governor is handling these SIP orders without being accused of being ignorant at best or wanting people to die at worst, or maybe politically motivated for evil, or a misogyinst. The virus doesn't care about people's civil liberties, but as thinking, reasoning human beings I think it should be able to be at least discussed without accusation.

[frogger]

3 hours ago, GoodGrief1 said:

The only protest I'm aware of here has to do with crime downtown. Is there something else going on?

 

 

Nevermind, the other one is small. Open Alaska is a much bigger group. 

 

[Corraleno]

4 minutes ago, EmseB said:

I was also referring to that specific protest. I apologize for being unclear. That was my point... your posts seem to indicate you thought all of the protestors were unreasonable.

Thanks for the condescension re how to help my own grandpa, but not all eldery have people in their lives to care for them. That is the larger point. Those who are older or at risk always fall through the cracks and even more so in a crisis when any concern about them is hand-waved away as, well, just take care of them.

So Walmarts and all other big box stores should be totally open, allowing whole families to browse all the departments as a way to get out of the house (because that was happening, which is the reason for the restrictions), just in case there are a handful of elderly people who want to plant a garden but have no internet, don't get seed catalogs in the mail, and don't know a single person anywhere in the country who can order seeds for them? That makes far less sense than trying to reduce the number of people in Walmart, and the amount of time they spend there, in order to avoid spreading a potentially fatal disease to people exactly like your grandpa. The number of people in MI who are at high risk but need food is orders of magnitude larger than the number who need seeds and literally have no other way to get them besides driving to a crowded Walmart.

[wendyroo]

4 minutes ago, EmseB said:

That is the point...there is no possibility given that I am seeing in people's posts here that anyone who is protesting could possibly have a legitimate case.

Of course they have legitimate gripes, but it is a pandemic for goodness sake and we all have to flex and cooperate a bit.

What bothers me is that when people are protesting to get their rights back, they seem to be ignoring that opening up those restrictions would infringe on a lot of other people's rights to health and safety.

Take boating for example.  I think we all agree that gas stations have to stay open so that essential works can drive to work.  But is it fair to expose gas station workers to additional customers so that people can buy gas for their boats?  Boats are gas hogs; the more people boating, the more gas is used in the state which means more gas needs to be trucked.  Do you want to be the truck driver driving that extra gas into Michigan and then returning to your family all so that Michiganders can boat?

What about the Coast Guard?  Since we can't even keep doctors and nurses in PPE, I'm doubting the Coast Guard has adequate supplies to keep themselves safe.  And we know that people boating means there will be boat accidents that require Coast Guard intervention and rescue.  And some of those boat accidents will require hospitalization and will further risk and strain the medical workers.

None of this is simple, and I do not for one second think that Gov. Whitmer arbitrarily shut down boating just to piss people off.  What does that gain her?  If she was aiming to make a power grab, do we really think outlawing motor boats in a state with 11,000 inland lakes and several Great ones would realistically be high on her list.

Yes, I am sure not being able to boat is very annoying and detrimental to some residents.  Suck it up.  I am bleeding heavily because my mentally ill son stabbed me with a shard of plastic.  Being stuck in the house with no mental health care is no picnic for us either, but we all need to make sacrifices during this global crisis.

[EmseB]

1 hour ago, Corraleno said:

So Walmarts and all other big box stores should be totally open, allowing whole families to browse all the departments as a way to get out of the house (because that was happening, which is the reason for the restrictions), just in case there are a handful of elderly people who want to plant a garden but have no internet, don't get seed catalogs in the mail, and don't know a single person anywhere in the country who can order seeds for them? That makes far less sense than trying to reduce the number of people in Walmart, and the amount of time they spend there, in order to avoid spreading a potentially fatal disease to people exactly like your grandpa. The number of people in MI who are at high risk but need food is orders of magnitude larger than the number who need seeds and literally have no other way to get them besides driving to a crowded Walmart.

Why is it all or nothing? Why does having beef with one aspect of this mean going to another extreme of unfettered crowds in the store? The Wal-Marts here have all departments open. There are no restrictions on what people can buy. They are not crowded because Wal-Mart has limited how many people can be in the store at one time. When this first went into effect there were long lines of people waiting to get in. Now that has settled down because, I think, people have spaced out their visits and don't hang out in there like they normally would. Human behavior is a funny thing that way, in that a lot of us will avoid risk and inconvenience voluntarily if we can. I know plenty of people who normally browse Target like it's their job who don't do it now and it's not because the governor is telling them they can't be in the clothing section. Conversely, I don't think closing the garden section is keeping people from going to the store just to get out of the house. If someone really wants to wander the Walmarts during a pandemic, they just do it in the open areas. 

There has been a successful reduction of people in our stores here without telling people what they can and cannot buy once they are already in the store. And it's been clearly communicated how and why this is being done and elderly are given special hours to shop when the store is first opened and at its cleanest.

Is there any room to talk about how perhaps the MI governor could handle things differently or communicate better without saying "Oh, so you want everyone crowded into the store with no restrictions?" 

 

Edited April 17, 2020 by EmseB

[scholarly]

If anyone is interested in Lansing's update to the gridlock protest:

Lansing Mayor Andy Schor has issued a statement regarding this week's gridlock protest and includes guidelines for future gridlock protests. You can google Statement from Mayor Andy Schor Regarding “Gridlock” Protests. He addresses the fact that "While many people stayed in their cars to protest at the Capitol, some “gridlock protesters” went further and took their frustrations out on the entire City of Lansing by including our downtown, neighborhoods and corridors." He says that "Demonstrators not practicing social distancing put the safety of Lansing residents, first responders and their respective communities at risk."  After listing what the city and MSU police will do to mitigate the future harm to the city due to protests, he also says "Lansing is proud to be the Capital City and I strongly believe in the right for people to protest their government. However, the right to protest does not include violating the rights of others or breaking local laws. Nor does it include preventing public safety from getting to emergencies."

This was a protest that caused harm to a city of people trying to cope with the stress of job loss, school closures, loss of community, and a pandemic.  It wasn't a peaceful protest of people making their voices heard.

[EmseB]

Am I disagreeing that sacrifices need to be made? No.

How are other states handling fishing, boating, gas, big box stores, etc.?

Getting 325 million people to make sacrifices of this magnitude requires buy in. The effort should be, I think, to make things as least restrictive as possible while keeping people as safe as possible. That is a super fine line and also, whether we like it or not, requires excellent communication and openness. Telling people to suck it up because the government says so only goes so far, and if they see that in other states things are going better with less restrictions or handling restrictions differently, there might be less buy in. Writing them off as people unwilling to sacrifice or suck it up might make the situation worse rather than better. 

I am in a military family. I signed up to be bossed around by the government.  Most people did not. If you do not chafe under that kind of authority, or question any of the wisdom of specific things the government is doing, I think that is a blessing right now. If you're able to take every executive order from a Governor as just something we have to do right now because it's a pandemic, that probably makes this somewhat easier to deal with. I don't fault those who have questions, or even want to protest, as people who do not care or who only have their self interest in mind. Nor do I think they are ridiculous for being skeptical of certain government actions.

[TCB]

It’s good to read all these responses and think about the different sides to the argument. All the responses are making me think.

For me personally, the people around me who are protesting about their loss of liberty are the same ones who have been saying things like “it’s a media hoax” and “do you know anyone who actually has the virus”, and “it’s no different than the flu” so they really annoy and freak me out, because I feel like they are putting others at risk, and maybe are persuading others to take risks that could lead to their deaths. This situation is unlike anything most of us have ever experienced before, but there are people who seem unable to think outside their own experiences and therefore are unable to accept that we might need restrictions that we would never have imagined were necessary. The people around me were the ones who did not voluntarily take precautions and it’s those who have made it necessary for more formal rules to be laid out. Some of my Christian friends are saying and doing these things and it feels like their political beliefs are stronger and more important than their Christian beliefs of loving their neighbors.

[Ausmumof3]

trump tweets

LIBERATE VIRGINIA, and save your great 2nd Amendment. It is under siege!

39.2K

38.1K

149.1K

Donald J. Trump

@realDonaldTrump

·

8h

LIBERATE MICHIGAN!

32.8K

34.8K

154.3K

Donald J. Trump

@realDonaldTrump

·

8h

LIBERATE MINNESOTA!

[Ottakee]

27 minutes ago, EmseB said:

Am I disagreeing that sacrifices need to be made? No.

How are other states handling fishing, boating, gas, big box stores, etc.?

Getting 325 million people to make sacrifices of this magnitude requires buy in. The effort should be, I think, to make things as least restrictive as possible while keeping people as safe as possible. That is a super fine line and also, whether we like it or not, requires excellent communication and openness. Telling people to suck it up because the government says so only goes so far, and if they see that in other states things are going better with less restrictions or handling restrictions differently, there might be less buy in. Writing them off as people unwilling to sacrifice or suck it up might make the situation worse rather than better. 

I am in a military family. I signed up to be bossed around by the government.  Most people did not. If you do not chafe under that kind of authority, or question any of the wisdom of specific things the government is doing, I think that is a blessing right now. If you're able to take every executive order from a Governor as just something we have to do right now because it's a pandemic, that probably makes this somewhat easier to deal with. I don't fault those who have questions, or even want to protest, as people who do not care or who only have their self interest in mind. Nor do I think they are ridiculous for being skeptical of certain government actions.

I love this.  Very reasonable.  Trump calling our governor names and then our governor basically saying suck it up and blaming Betsy DeVos for being behing/funding the gridlock is not helpful for either side.   Our governor needs respect, even if you disagree with her....and she needs to respect the people of Michigan.  Name calling and blaming others is not what we need from our leaders right now....on either side of the red/blue line.

What needs to be done?  What is the best way to do that?  How can we all work together to get that done?....that should be our focus.

[Ausmumof3]

24 minutes ago, kand said:

He’s just trying to play people. He hopes  if he throws out something about saving the 2nd amendment, no matter how irrelevant, he’s going to assure himself of more votes in November. He thinks people are dumb enough not to see through that. Now he can play both sides: it’s all up to the governors, but also, isn’t it awful what they are doing to you all? I think this works much better for his personal goals than saying that he has total authority over the states. 

Interestingly this almost mirrors the explanation ive seen of how Xi handled the crisis.  (And similar).  He leaves it to the local communist party leaders to handle then cuts them off if they mess it up while staying uninvolved.  When the crisis is successfully resolved he appears more publicly and takes credit. Kind of like an octopus.  The arms do their thing but in danger they get sacrificed to save the head.