If you’re in Michigan

[Corraleno]

1 minute ago, Momto6inIN said:

This is a legit question - isn't getting everything you need at 1 store better than multiple stops all over town?

I think the idea is that, when there are limits on how many people can be in a store that many rely on for basic food needs, having a bunch of people wandering around looking at plants or trying on clothes or looking through racks of DVDs or whatever, will make the lines much longer for the people who just need to buy food.

 

[Acorn]

1 minute ago, gardenmom5 said:

Yep - the opponent was crazy for thinking she ONLY wanted a $0.20 gas tax . . . . sheesh.

 

I don't know if there are more vacation type homes in the UP - but I know here small towns have been struggling to prevent people from populated areas running off to their vacation homes on the beach or in the mts - where its rural and they don't have adequate resources.  like groceries (becaue the city folk sure don't bring enough food with them, and rural grocery stores don't get deliveries as often as the city). - let alone medical if someone who fled the city gets sick and needs a hospital.

 

I'm in WA  - generally seriously dislike Inslee, but have generally supported how he's handled the shut down here. Shut down was early and long. (his original order was for six weeks, when every other state was maybe two weeks. - it's been extended.)    the news stations have generally been good about giving balanced information with out sensationalizing things (which they have been known to do too.)

I'm also seeing signs of impatience though. Parking lots in parks are being cordoned off because people aren't distancing the way they should.

how much of your area is agricultural that there would be tractor/agricultural supplies? 

I became aware of the seed thing because a MI person posted to a common friend's FB page about personally not being able to buy any of these supplies (seeds, paint) so they can work in their yard or on the their house.

I can go to a big box store.  there are limits for how many people are allowed inside.  grocery stores have passed out gloves - both wipe down cart handles.  (I have my own mask and gloves - not sure how much good their quick wipe does on the handle.)

Most of Michigan except Detroit will have agricultural stores.

[Momto6inIN]

1 minute ago, Corraleno said:

I think the idea is that, when there are limits on how many people can be in a store that many rely on for basic food needs, having a bunch of people wandering around looking at plants or trying on clothes or looking through racks of DVDs or whatever, will make the lines much longer for the people who just need to buy food.

 

I can see that, I guess. But I'm still not sure it will help contain the spread better than having people only going to 1 place.

[gardenmom5]

4 minutes ago, TABmom said:

I'm in Michigan. It's ridiculous how people seem to be trying to misinterpret the orders. The smaller nurseries, hardware stores, etc are open. You just can't buy everything at a big box store. She's trying to keep the big box stores from being crazy crowded. Maybe she hasn't gone about it in the best way, but she is trying to save people's lives. But people in Facebook are all "I can't have a garden now!" Or " who cares what the order says? She can't tell me what to do! "Honestly, these people sound like toddlers throwing a tantrum about what they can't have. And I'm NOT talking about people needing to get back to work. People here are throwing fits because boat launches are closed and she told people with multiple residences to pick one and stay there. Or that stores with more than 50,000 square feet needed to block off some of the nonessential items. 

I've gone out for groceries and stuff twice and Meijer (a big box store like wal-mart) has been very crowded. There was a line at Home Depot outside for curbside delivery - people are NOT hurting for gardening supplies.

I'm in the first state to be hit - and for the first couple/few weeks - had half of all deaths in the entire country.

big box stores are open - customers are limited, then it's one out one in.  Costco is open, with every other register open/closed so people are farther apart.

while I'd love to do curbside pickup - somethings simply aren't on the websites/available to buy curbside (like garden supplies) and I have actually had to go into a store.  

HD is open here, they have X's every 6' apart, with ropes to keep everyone in a line like at a movie theater.  Both to get in - and to go to a cash register.  Costo is doing something similar

[melmichigan]

5 minutes ago, Momto6inIN said:

This is a legit question - isn't getting everything you need at 1 store better than multiple stops all over town?

They are asking people to only shop for essentials.  It’s to limit the exposure for those that are shopping in these stores for their essentials.  Everyone shopping for gardening, and wandering looking at clothes just puts them at further risk.  Those that are at risk can avoid the hardware or garden stores, but can’t really avoid groceries.  In many parts of the city there aren’t small local grocery stores, just big boxed stores, so there are limited choices when it comes to groceries.

[Corraleno]

4 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

I'm in the first state to be hit - and for the first couple/few weeks - had half of all deaths in the entire country.

big box stores are open - customers are limited, then it's one out one in.  Costco is open, with every other register open/closed so people are farther apart.

while I'd love to do curbside pickup - somethings simply aren't on the websites/available to buy curbside (like garden supplies) and I have actually had to go into a store.  

HD is open here, they have X's every 6' apart, with ropes to keep everyone in a line like at a movie theater.  Both to get in - and to go to a cash register.  Costo is doing something similar

But if WA was experiencing the number of cases and deaths (total and per capita) that MI is, then Inslee might be adding restrictions to the big box stores in WA, too. Michigan has more deaths than CA, WA, and OR combined. 

[EmseB]

16 minutes ago, melmichigan said:

 

Do you live here?  You are sharing incorrect information. I can go online and order all the garden stuff I want from Lowe’s and do a pickup.  I cannot walk into the store and wander around the garden center and pick out what I want.  I can go to Feed and Seed and get whatever I want provided I follow the customer limitations for the numbers in the store at a given time.  I can buy a canoe at Sam’s Club right now.  One can do all these things, but we’re being asked to stick to essentials.  Hospitals up north don’t have capacity.  If I were to go to Canada Creek, it’s almost two hours to the nearest hospital to treat COVID unless one is airlifted. (I used to work at the regional hospital when I lived up north.)

I have friends who live there and post their experiences on social media. Perhaps things aren't being enforced evenly, I don't know. Or maybe my friends are misinformed. Or maybe I have things backwards. Or maybe smaller feed and seeds in their area are closing for other reasons. Even the info you post above seems rather arbitrary. If big box stores and small stores alike are limiting customers to a certain capacity, why rope off purchases for people already in the store? 

As a practical matter, it makes no sense to have people going one place for groceries, another place for garden supplies, another place for home improvement, etc., when they could get everything in one trip at one store. I, personally, would hate making multiple stops for essential items in a time like this. I am savvy enough to use an app and pick stuff up. My elderly relatives are not. They would be the ones needing a light bulb or some mulch and going to Walmart, getting turned away, going somewhere else, exposing themselves unnecessarily. So, to me, not letting people do all their shopping at once is counter-productive.

In any case, there are a lot of states under SIP orders. I have only heard of one massive protest like this in one state. Either she is really bad at PR and everything she has done is totally reasonable and the people protesting are just misinformed hicks, or maybe she has made some mistakes.

[melmichigan]

41 minutes ago, EmseB said:

I have friends who live there and post their experiences on social media. Perhaps things aren't being enforced evenly, I don't know. Or maybe my friends are misinformed. Or maybe I have things backwards. Or maybe smaller feed and seeds in their area are closing for other reasons. Even the info you post above seems rather arbitrary. If big box stores and small stores alike are limiting customers to a certain capacity, why rope off purchases for people already in the store? 

As a practical matter, it makes no sense to have people going one place for groceries, another place for garden supplies, another place for home improvement, etc., when they could get everything in one trip at one store. I, personally, would hate making multiple stops for essential items in a time like this. I am savvy enough to use an app and pick stuff up. My elderly relatives are not. They would be the ones needing a light bulb or some mulch and going to Walmart, getting turned away, going somewhere else, exposing themselves unnecessarily. So, to me, not letting people do all their shopping at once is counter-productive.

In any case, there are a lot of states under SIP orders. I have only heard of one massive protest like this in one state. Either she is really bad at PR and everything she has done is totally reasonable and the people protesting are just misinformed hicks, or maybe she has made some mistakes.

They are asking people to only go out for essentials, defined as the grocery store, and the pharmacy (unless an essential worker).  It’s to protect the at risk populations whose only choice of grocery store is a big boxed store (poor neighborhoods don’t have small town grocery stores anymore so a Walmart might be their only choice).  If you aren’t at risk you can still choose to go to other stores or get curbside for those things.  

Some small stores are choosing not to take the risk and are closing, so that could be a valid reason.  Some are also having trouble getting stock and opt to close and ride it out.

The protest was promoted And organized by the Michigan Conservative Coalition, which is a political action group, so that’s all I can say on that.

 

 

Edited April 16, 2020 by melmichigan

[frogger]

I'm keep hoping people will cooperate up here because there is a large segment that is whining about everything. Our governor hit it fast and handled it well (so glad it was a Republican to placate a certain group). We have really tried to facilitate an attitude of support local, help people out etc and there is hardship no doubt but the "we're in this together"  attitude helps but there is a grumbly group who thinks it's all overblown.  Even those who cooperated at first are already impatient. That's part of living in a fast food, on demand, have everything easy culture. Ugh

 

I just want to say I'm sorry. I feel for you knowing this probably set you back and many of you have been working hard to do your part and had your own share of difficulties. I'm sure it's probably incredibly frustrating.  

[mathnerd]

12 minutes ago, melmichigan said:

They are asking people to only go out for essentials, defined as the grocery store, and the pharmacy (unless an essential worker).  It’s to protect the at risk populations whose only choice of grocery store is a big boxed store (poor neighborhoods don’t have small town grocery stores anymore so a Walmart might be their only choice).  If you aren’t at risk you can still choose to go to other stores or get curbside for those things.  

Some small stores are choosing not to take the risk and are closing, so that could be a valid reason.  Some are also having trouble getting stock and opt to close and ride it out.

The protest was promoted And organized by the Michigan Conservative Coalition, which is a political action group.

I think that other states have had longer shelter in place orders and more strict restrictions on "essential services" (those who want to see Ghost Towns, closed nurseries and open marijuana stores, please visit Santa Clara county!). Michigan is not the only state that is "suffering" by not being allowed to buy certain things. I think that this particular governor has been the subject of many a politician's jabs recently, to the extent that a week ago, I went online and looked up who the Gretchen Whitmer popping up in political cross talk was! I am not surprised that the protest was a politically promoted move.

2 hours ago, Corraleno said:

I thought the prohibition on plant sales was only for big box stores (>50,000 sq'), to try to limit the numbers of people shopping there, and regular plant nurseries and garden centers were allowed to be open. Is that not true? 

Garden centers are not open in Michigan.  Maybe tractor supply falls into Some other category or possibly they are slightly smaller than 50000 sq ft.  That is a huge part of the problem.  The rules are *so*arbitrary.  My understanding from reading some farm websites and from owners are big box have to tape off sections but may be able to curbside, smaller hardware can sell because they are essential, and garden centers/farms are closed completely from selling anything even if curbside or delivery.  So no delivery of mulch from a landscape or garden center.  

8 hours ago, Terabith said:

I don’t see anything wrong with protesting, but blocking roads to ambulances is pretty unconscionable.  

My understanding is they were not blocking entire roads.  Everyone was going one way and there was the means for emergency access and plenty of open side streets on top of that.  The state police were there supervising everything.

[Pen]

8 minutes ago, Mom2mthj said:

Garden centers are not open in Michigan.  Maybe tractor supply falls into Some other category or possibly they are slightly smaller than 50000 sq ft.  That is a huge part of the problem.  The rules are *so*arbitrary.  My understanding from reading some farm websites and from owners are big box have to tape off sections but may be able to curbside, smaller hardware can sell because they are essential, and garden centers/farms are closed completely from selling anything even if curbside or delivery.  So no delivery of mulch from a landscape or garden center.  

 

I looked on a number of garden company sites during business hours earlier today and found them open. 

I have taken screen shots of an explanation on one such site —unfortunately they seem to have posted in reverse order.  (I will need to delete sometime soon due to low wtm photo space. 

[Pen]

Governor Whitmer’s order in part as referred to in the notice in screenshots in my prior post (bold added) : 

8. For purposes of this order, critical infrastructure workers are those workers described by the Director of the U.S. Cybersecurity and Infrastructure Security Agency in his guidance of March 19, 2020 on the COVID-19 response (available here). Such workers include some workers in each of the following sectors:

 

1. Health care and public health.

 

2. Law enforcement, public safety, and first responders.

 

3. Food and agriculture.

 

4. Energy.

 

5. Water and wastewater.

 

6. Transportation and logistics.

 

7. Public works.

 

8. Communications and information technology, including news media.

 

1. Other community-based government operations and essential functions.

 

10. Critical manufacturing.

 

11. Hazardous materials.

 

12. Financial services.

 

13. Chemical supply chains and safety.

 

14. Defense industrial base.

11 minutes ago, Pen said:

 

I looked on a number of garden company sites during business hours earlier today and found them open. 

I have taken screen shots of an explanation on one such site —unfortunately they seem to have posted in reverse order.  (I will need to delete sometime soon due to low wtm photo space. 

The part that you have a right they are considered food...I really think you are looking at part of the protest.  The order line 8 said you can work in food and agriculture but it doesn’t clearly give them the right to sell it directly to the customer.

eta: you posted as I was typing.  That section says you can go to work or make your employees go to work if you are in food or agriculture.  It doesn’t speak to sale of the products raised.  The company is making their own conclusion that at the time they open in May that they can sell plants.

Edited April 16, 2020 by Mom2mthj

[melmichigan]

Exactly, these places open in May (as they traditionally are).  So people are protesting about something that hasn’t even happened yet.  These stores aren’t open, and the order hasn’t been extended to May. 

Edited April 16, 2020 by melmichigan

[Farrar]

If you look at some of the places closed all over the country then it often does seem random. I'm not in MI, but around here specific outdoor venues and so forth have been closed when they were abused. I don't think that's usually a good way to make rules, but it's a pandemic. Here, they asked the stores to limit and show caution. When they were really mixed in doing that, the mayor ordered specific limits and that they turn away customers without masks and then she sent the police to random stores to help enforce it gently.

I think it's hard to be treated like children. The government is, indeed, treating us like children. It's like when you tell your kids to respect basic boundaries and they don't and suddenly you've got an elaborate system for who gets to use the Wii for 22 minutes on a Tuesday. It's horrible. But it's also a pandemic. And it's temporary. And it's better than dying or spreading death.

I'm fine with protests in general so I respect that they have that right. From what I can tell, to be as fair as possible, the hospital itself said that while traffic was a problem a few times, they were not blocking the entrance to the hospital. I saw a video that supposedly confirmed that they were and all I could see was a few people near the entrance to the hospital. So until I see clearer news verified reports on that, I'm not sure it wasn't just that they snarled traffic. But a large portion of the protesters and the organizers absolutely were groups like the Proud Boys. So that's just true. These weren't "bad apples" at a good protest. They were the protest but managed to attract some more moderates, especially more moderate supporters.

I think Whitmer's measures are all completely called for given the numbers. And possibly then some. I don't know if she has always handled it very well. I like her but it seems like she's struggled at points to implement a more cohesive plan with good leadership.

Edited April 16, 2020 by Farrar

[Jean in Newcastle]

5 hours ago, Where's Toto? said:

Looks like it's not just people peacefully protesting.

New: The Michigan Proud Boys, a local Neo Nazi group of Trump supporters, organized a blockade of the intersection at a green light outside Sparrow Hospital in Lansing.
A doctor rushed out of the hospital to plead with them to let the ambulances through, but the Trumpsters just waved their Confederate flags and laughed. This is how America dies

https://www.whmi.com/news/article/protestors-crowd-capitol-stay-at-home-order

ETA:  I'm in NJ.  You definitely don't want a repeat of what we have going on here.

If anyone dies from their actions then they should be charged with murder. 

[Momto6inIN]

11 hours ago, melmichigan said:

They are asking people to only shop for essentials.  It’s to limit the exposure for those that are shopping in these stores for their essentials.  Everyone shopping for gardening, and wandering looking at clothes just puts them at further risk.  Those that are at risk can avoid the hardware or garden stores, but can’t really avoid groceries.  In many parts of the city there aren’t small local grocery stores, just big boxed stores, so there are limited choices when it comes to groceries.

But not at risk people in those same areas need groceries too. So they will go to the garden and the hardware stores, touch all the things and breathe all the air, and then hit the grocery store on their way home where all the at risk people are shopping too. It just doesn't make sense to me from a "keep our circles from overlapping as much as possible" perspective.

[Farrar]

25 minutes ago, Momto6inIN said:

But not at risk people in those same areas need groceries too. So they will go to the garden and the hardware stores, touch all the things and breathe all the air, and then hit the grocery store on their way home where all the at risk people are shopping too. It just doesn't make sense to me from a "keep our circles from overlapping as much as possible" perspective.

I understand what you’re saying. But it doesn’t matter if you’re at risk or not - no one should be browsing the clothes right now. The more people who go to these stores and shop together- especially slowly- then the worse it is. It’s as bad as going to multiple stores because you’ve got more exposures in the store. Worse. Think of it like this - you go to one Wal-Mart with 100 people inside or 1 grocery with 25, plus one garden center with pickup, plus have something delivered from online.

When people abused the “sort of” needs, they cracked down. You can still get those needs met, but not at the stores with a ton of people (aka potential exposures) in them. And more of them are pick up places to make it 1 potential exposure - the person who brings it to you.

[EmseB]

10 hours ago, melmichigan said:

They are asking people to only go out for essentials, defined as the grocery store, and the pharmacy (unless an essential worker).  It’s to protect the at risk populations whose only choice of grocery store is a big boxed store (poor neighborhoods don’t have small town grocery stores anymore so a Walmart might be their only choice).  If you aren’t at risk you can still choose to go to other stores or get curbside for those things.  

Some small stores are choosing not to take the risk and are closing, so that could be a valid reason.  Some are also having trouble getting stock and opt to close and ride it out.

The protest was promoted And organized by the Michigan Conservative Coalition, which is a political action group, so that’s all I can say on that.

 

 

 

Okay, but they aren't the only ones who showed up. I think making this out to be a partisan issue is a mistake. There are other governors with the same goals. There are a lot of people on the edge right now with worry about sickness, money, food, whatever, and I think it's extremely tricky to get everyone on board with being at home, etc. It is easy for me to look at how people in my state are reacting and how people in Michigan are reacting to SIP orders (and not *just* there, I think KY is being oddly punitive in some areas too) and say that she needs to be less heavy handed, or communicate better or something to bring people along. She can't continue to go on TV and basically act like "it's snowing, you don't need this stuff anyway."

[Scarlett]

Isn't the MI governor the one Trump referred to as 'that woman from MI.'  

[Pawz4me]

8 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

Isn't the MI governor the one Trump referred to as 'that woman from MI.'  

Yes. He also referred to her as "Half Wit-mer."

Very mature and classy is our POTUS (not).

[Scarlett]

8 minutes ago, Pawz4me said:

Yes. He also referred to her as "Half Wit-mer."

Very mature and classy is our POTUS (not).

I would imagine there is a segment of society who would be influenced by that kind of talk.  

At any rate, I saw a clip of a protester complaining because she can't get her hair done.  And just reading through this thread I can see that the restrictions might possibly be a little all over the map....but I guess I am basically thinking 'so what?'  Everyone just hunker down for a few more weeks at least even if it is unfair to you personally in some way.  People aren't really that good at taking one for the team though.  

[Pen]

 

Quote

ETAA: I'm in CA and disagree with Gavin Newsom on almost everything but I think he has handled our stay at home orders really well. Gov. Whitmer has not. It's possible to be for hunkering down and SIP and be against what certain govs are doing. 

 

I absolutely agree.

However, I think that there are other ways to protest (letters, calls, petitions, letters to editor, court appeals...) and that those should have been used and exhausted before in person demonstrations during a pandemic. 

I don’t think the time lapse between restrictions and demonstrations was sufficient to have allowed other methods of voicing objections to have been substantially utilized.  

It gave the feeling of a lot of well meaning people (and some maybe not so well meaning) advancing on Lansing deliberately with the aim of causing Grid Lock (Operation Grid Lock was name of the operation afaik, it was not just an accident that a few people accidentally caused some gridlock or a few bad actors did so) often not even being clear on what they were protesting, or protesting untrue things, like “we aren’t allowed to have a garden” that had been proclaimed by “news” or social media, but had not been examined for accuracy. 

 

The right Peaceably to Assemble and to petition government for the redress of grievances is clearly a constitutional matter.

Though rights have limits. Rights have responsibilities. 

Blocking roads is getting into an area that reaches limits on Assembly rights. 

As is anything that poses a risk to public health and welfare.   And a major pandemic is a situation where public health and safety are at risk to start with. 

For me, seeing the people, especially the ones who were not in vehicles and who were up close to one another without masks and possibly spewing out quite a lot of droplets as they talked (or shouted?), along with pictures I have seen of crowds at big box stores did not make it look like restrictions on big box stores was a wrong thing.  A few people acting in box stores the way a few people were acting at the Operation Gridlock makes it look like vulnerable people who do need groceries Would be endangered.  

That said, there may still be better compromises like curbside pick up. 

Edited April 16, 2020 by Pen

[wendyroo]

I live in Michigan, in a suburb just south of Grand Rapids.

It snowed all day yesterday and there is currently an inch on the ground.  There is a fair likelihood it will snow more tomorrow.

Most greenhouses around here are closed until May 1st...but that is their typical seasonal opening day, it has nothing to do with any coronavirus restrictions.  I did find two local greenhouses that are open; one is allowing a minimal number of customers in at a given time, the other is only doing curbside pick up. 

There is also one landscape supply company nearby offering pick up or delivery (though no bulk mulch/rocks/etc).  On their Facebook page they are complaining about not being allowed to mow customer's yards...with an inch of snow in my yard, and more in the forecast, I am having a hard time seeing how this could be considered essential, and I think it would be very hard to enforce social distancing since I often see 3 man mowing crews all traveling in one pick-up truck cab.

Google currently shows that our two local Walmarts are as busy or busier than "normal".  Same is true for Home Depot, Lowes and Target.  Menards, a home improvement store that does carry a small selection of food and clothes, is showing that it is currently ~30% busier than normal.

I think Whitmer was pushed to the new restrictions by a lot of people's irresponsible behavior.  Many people were (and still are ☹️) flocking to browse and stroll and congregate at places like Walmart and Menards. They were not quickly grabbing a piece of essential clothing, but rather shopping in groups, flipping through racks, and loitering in the stores.  And I truly do understand the appeal; I love going to the thrift store for a pair of jeans and coming home two hours later with books and baskets and boots.  Realistically, though, that type of shopping, be it for clothes or books or flowers, is recreational and must be avoided now.

When Whitmer first issued the Stay at Home order (on March 24th) the restrictions were not as strict.  She gave people three weeks to make good shopping choices on their own...to only make essential clothing and gardening purchases, to shop alone and get in and out quickly, to use pick and delivery whenever possible to limit foot traffic in the stores, etc.  Many people continued to shop recreationally and irresponsibly.  The state death toll climbed.  When it was time to extend the stay at home order, I understand why Whitmer tightened the restrictions.  No, I don't think it was executed perfectly or uniformly or in an exactly logical way, but I think people squawking about "they can buy chips, why can't I buy a puzzle" are being petty and missing the big picture...and in most cases are just plain wrong because both of our local board game stores are open for business.

[BlsdMama]

21 hours ago, Spy Car said:

Political protests are examples of neither work nor part of supplying people food. Sorry.

Bill

WTH, Bill?

 

Surely you recognize the need for the people to stand against tyranny regardless whether you consider this event that scenario.

[Spy Car]

7 minutes ago, BlsdMama said:

WTH, Bill?

 

Surely you recognize the need for the people to stand against tyranny regardless whether you consider this event that scenario.

Tyranny? By having neo-Nazis on parade blocking access to hospitals? 

No man. These people are endangering lives. Pure and simple. They are grossly irresponsible and deserve to be condemned for their actions (and fined and given jail sentences to be served post-crisis).

Their actions are indefensible and a threat to people's lives and a drain on police personale.

Absolutely shameful behavior.

The internet offers plenty of space for "protest" without endangering lives.

Bill

 

 

 

 

 

[EmseB]

Snow aside, if I lived in MN I'd be doing all my indoor planting for transplanting right about now.

But more generally, I see various issues with being stricter or more authoritarian based on citizens' behavior.

But also the defense of, "Well, this has to be done; it's a pandemic," used to justify almost anything gets us nowhere good pretty quickly. This is going to *be* a pandemic for a good long while. I have seen people say over and over again we can't sustain this level of lockdown for more than a couple months at most and we certainly aren't going to wait for a vaccine to lift SIP orders or open some things up. But it's also becoming increasingly clear that whenever things open up again the virus is going to spread again. All of the "but it's a pandemic" reasoning is going to apply 6 months from now, pessimistically speaking. I personally am increasingly skeptical that any kind of "dance" mitigation strategy is going to work even with widespread testing. I think this thing is going to be in various stages of surging in various cities and causing system overwhelm until we can vaccinate or get a good prophylactic treatment + good tests. Until then, people need good, clear communication from elected officials and they need to be able to trust them...and treating people like children, deserved or needed or not, does not do that. You end up with less buy-in and compliance, IMO, than you would have had otherwise, or some variation of a strict police enforcement. I don't think there are good answers (because it's a pandemic, lol) but I think you can definitely say some officials are doing better on the leadership and trust front than others.

[EmseB]

And there is an inherent catch 22 in the idea that the government can tell you when it is safe enough to protest the government again. They will let you know when it's okay to protest their policies about protesting.

[Spy Car]

1 minute ago, EmseB said:

And there is an inherent catch 22 in the idea that the government can tell you when it is safe enough to protest the government again. They will let you know when it's okay to protest their policies about protesting.

 

Except that's not what's happened.

Bill

[frogger]

The Democrat governor actually said she supported their free speech in a press conference but to please try not to endanger people anymore. I think this was mainly targeting those who left their vehicles and were just being stupid. Many were staying in their cars, etc. 

 

 

[Farrar]

I've been in arrest-risking purposeful road snarling protests before, so I won't be a hypocrite and say they should have done that. In ones I've been a part of, you break the lines to actively let all emergency vehicles through. Since they used cars, I don't know if they even considered this or what. And also, if you get arrested, you know that's only fair.

I think they were dumb and risked lives. All gatherings risk lives. I can't tell if they actually meant to block the hospital and the news coverage has been very unclear. The hospital itself said they were not blocked. A few videos of hospital workers complained they had trouble arriving at work. It doesn't feel damning to me honestly.

[OH_Homeschooler]

I guess I'm failing to see how Whitmer's orders are any different from most other states? Even in some states where they are refusing to call it what it is (shelter in place), the orders are essentially the same. And Michigan has been hit hard by the virus. It's a matter of public health and safety. Everyone in the nation is being asked to cooperate right now. 

I've seen clips of people from the protest complaining about how they just want to be able to get their hair colored, or to buy paint. I fail to see how people like that are simply trying to get things open again so they can work/eat/live. (And as pointed out here, no one is stopping them from getting hair dye or paint). Seems more like the protesters are getting riled up by a particular network with a particular worldview and are confusing "inconvenience" with "rights being trampled on."

[Dainty]

22 minutes ago, OH_Homeschooler said:

I guess I'm failing to see how Whitmer's orders are any different from most other states? Even in some states where they are refusing to call it what it is (shelter in place), the orders are essentially the same. And Michigan has been hit hard by the virus. It's a matter of public health and safety. Everyone in the nation is being asked to cooperate right now. 

I've seen clips of people from the protest complaining about how they just want to be able to get their hair colored, or to buy paint. I fail to see how people like that are simply trying to get things open again so they can work/eat/live. (And as pointed out here, no one is stopping them from getting hair dye or paint). Seems more like the protesters are getting riled up by a particular network with a particular worldview and are confusing "inconvenience" with "rights being trampled on."

 

The difference is she is a female Democrat governor who has criticized President Trump and is on his endless hit list for speaking against him.   She's now a target and most be devoured and destroyed.

Edited April 16, 2020 by Truth

[Scarlett]

1 hour ago, EmseB said:

Snow aside, if I lived in MN I'd be doing all my indoor planting for transplanting right about now.

But more generally, I see various issues with being stricter or more authoritarian based on citizens' behavior.

But also the defense of, "Well, this has to be done; it's a pandemic," used to justify almost anything gets us nowhere good pretty quickly. This is going to *be* a pandemic for a good long while. I have seen people say over and over again we can't sustain this level of lockdown for more than a couple months at most and we certainly aren't going to wait for a vaccine to lift SIP orders or open some things up. But it's also becoming increasingly clear that whenever things open up again the virus is going to spread again. All of the "but it's a pandemic" reasoning is going to apply 6 months from now, pessimistically speaking. I personally am increasingly skeptical that any kind of "dance" mitigation strategy is going to work even with widespread testing. I think this thing is going to be in various stages of surging in various cities and causing system overwhelm until we can vaccinate or get a good prophylactic treatment + good tests. Until then, people need good, clear communication from elected officials and they need to be able to trust them...and treating people like children, deserved or needed or not, does not do that. You end up with less buy-in and compliance, IMO, than you would have had otherwise, or some variation of a strict police enforcement. I don't think there are good answers (because it's a pandemic, lol) but I think you can definitely say some officials are doing better on the leadership and trust front than others.

Are we talking about MI or MN?

[MEmama]

4 hours ago, Scarlett said:

Isn't the MI governor the one Trump referred to as 'that woman from MI.'  

Yes. And the phrase has been repeated on this board. (No, I don’t remember what thread and there’s no way I can find it, but I was seriously dismayed, if sadly not shocked).

Words matter. 

[EmseB]

13 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

Are we talking about MI or MN?

Sorry, MI...although I was thinking of my MN friend who just posted pics of her seed starts this morning. But I imagine MI is the same gardening zone.

[EmseB]

25 minutes ago, Truth said:

The difference is she is a female Democrat governor who has criticized President Trump and is on his endless hit list for speaking against him.   She's now a target and most be devoured and destroyed.

Nope. I am not a Trump supporter myself. Like I said earlier, I disagree politically with just about everything my governor stands for but I think he's done a good job wrt SIP and covid. I don't think Whitmer has and it isn't based on her sex or her political affiliation or her comments to or about the president. Making this a partisan issue or about identity politics is a miscalculation.

ETA: Also, welcome to the forum! Or not? Sorry, your little + thing by your name made me think you were new, but not your actual profile. Don't mind me! 😂

Edited April 16, 2020 by EmseB

[wendyroo]

17 minutes ago, OH_Homeschooler said:

(And as pointed out here, no one is stopping them from getting hair dye or paint). 

Yep, drug stores are open, albeit with reduced hours.  Local paint stores are open, albeit often only offering call-in orders and curbside pick-up.

In general, the bigger the stores, the more restrictions.  And I see sense in that - bigger stores mean bigger crowds and more possibility of a super-spreader infecting hundreds or thousands of people over the course of a day of shopping.

Is it better to have an infected person spend two hours at Walmart traveling through every department, or to spend 45 minutes at Walmart just buying groceries and then also go to a paint store, a garden store, and a board game store?  Even with the space/customer restrictions, an average Walmart could still have 700+ customers at a time (average Walmart square footage per Google is 180,000; restriction is 4 customers per 1000 sq. ft.) plus all the staff.  OTOH, I would consider our local Sherwin-Williams bustling is I saw more than 2 customers at a given time.

I live in a location that gives me options, so I can avoid Walmart, and all other big box stores, at all costs because I do not want to be in a space with that many people.  But in some areas, Walmart is the only "grocery" store available, and I think it is very reasonable to, as much as possible, protect the people who must shop for food there.  The best way to do that is to limit how many people are in the store, limit how long they stay, limit how many items they touch, etc.  By closing large sections of the big box stores, they also limit how many workers need to be there and can prioritize the workers (more and more of whom are out sick) cleaning and restocking the food and medical supplies.

If you need tomato plants, go to a garden store.  They need the sale more than Walmart right now anyway.  And most of them are offering no-contact pick up...which, I guess under normal circumstances Walmart would offer for plants as well, but right now even if their garden center was open, I think it would be highly unethical to use one of their limited pick up slots for plants when people are waiting desperately to pick up food.

[OH_Homeschooler]

1 minute ago, wendyroo said:

I live in a location that gives me options, so I can avoid Walmart, and all other big box stores, at all costs because I do not want to be in a space with that many people.  But in some areas, Walmart is the only "grocery" store available, and I think it is very reasonable to, as much as possible, protect the people who must shop for food there.  The best way to do that is to limit how many people are in the store, limit how long they stay, limit how many items they touch, etc.  By closing large sections of the big box stores, they also limit how many workers need to be there and can prioritize the workers (more and more of whom are out sick) cleaning and restocking the food and medical supplies.

 

I went to Target a few weeks ago because I had a mix of things to get...food, OTC meds, soap. I thought in this case it was better to go to one store than several. I did, however, wander into the women's clothing section to look at scarves. This was after the CDC finally said we should be wearing masks, and when I looked on Amazon none would be available until May, so I was looking for an alternative. So anyway, there were signs up all over the clothing section asking people to avoid touching things. I got the sense that the employees wished they COULD shut down the non-essential departments. I felt pretty guilty being in that section, TBH. I got out as fast as I could. 

There will come a day when this is all okay again. That day will come sooner if people just stay home as much as possible. And not act like whiny little babies about it. 

 

23 minutes ago, Arctic Mama said:

Yeah, no.  That’s not really it.  There are plenty of Democrat governors who are managing this better without drama and excess fighting.  Whitmer is... a piece of work.  It’s not because she is a woman, or a Democrat.  That’s just playing needless identity politics when he has managed to work fine with plenty of women AND Democrats on this.

 

But...how do you know that gender isn't some part of it? How do you know that she doesn't have to be more vocal about disagreements than a man, because she is discounted as a woman? I just don't think you can say it's not gender when that's such a salient factor in our perception of leaders' responses.

20 minutes ago, EmseB said:

Nope. I am not a Trump supporter myself. Like I said earlier, I disagree politically with just about everything my governor stands for but I think he's done a good job wrt SIP and covid. I don't think Whitmer has and it isn't based on her sex or her political affiliation or her comments to or about the president. Making this a partisan issue or about identity politics is a miscalculation.

 

Perhaps you don't like Trump, but these people protesting sure seemed to be fans of him (MAGA hats and all). Over time, dealing with that kind of moronic protester...that would lead to a stronger response. Which, as I said, I don't ultimately think was more dramatic than any other governor's whose state is facing a lot of sickness and death.

 

[Farrar]

1 hour ago, Thatboyofmine said:

“Purposeful” & “road snarling” don’t belong in the same sentence.  What about people who are in an emergency situation and driven to the hospital in a non-emergency vehicle?  I have zero patience for road blocking.  Zero.  

I mean, that's why it's arrest risking. Civil disobedience is a thing. Sometimes you believe a cause is worth it. It's why I do protests where we risk arrest sometimes. I think this particular cause is rather disgusting, but I've done this on foot for climate action before. Organizers specifically plan not to block hospitals and do things to make way for emergency vehicles.

[EmseB]

33 minutes ago, OH_Homeschooler said:

 

I went to Target a few weeks ago because I had a mix of things to get...food, OTC meds, soap. I thought in this case it was better to go to one store than several. I did, however, wander into the women's clothing section to look at scarves. This was after the CDC finally said we should be wearing masks, and when I looked on Amazon none would be available until May, so I was looking for an alternative. So anyway, there were signs up all over the clothing section asking people to avoid touching things. I got the sense that the employees wished they COULD shut down the non-essential departments. I felt pretty guilty being in that section, TBH. I got out as fast as I could. 

There will come a day when this is all okay again. That day will come sooner if people just stay home as much as possible. And not act like whiny little babies about it. 

 

 

But...how do you know that gender isn't some part of it? How do you know that she doesn't have to be more vocal about disagreements than a man, because she is discounted as a woman? I just don't think you can say it's not gender when that's such a salient factor in our perception of leaders' responses.

 

Perhaps you don't like Trump, but these people protesting sure seemed to be fans of him (MAGA hats and all). Over time, dealing with that kind of moronic protester...that would lead to a stronger response. Which, as I said, I don't ultimately think was more dramatic than any other governor's whose state is facing a lot of sickness and death.

 

Maybe a lot of them do...but again, if we're talking about people being cry babies about staying home I think maybe look Medicmom's current thread about what she's seeing as a first responder. I think being okay with being locked down is some kind of privilege. I enjoy it, frankly, but I have that luxury.

Or we could just write everyone off as dimwitted maga head crybaby morons who are just upset they have to be at home and can't buy a boat in the snow. I doubt that is the wisest approach for elected officials to take but I've never held office, so 🤷. 

Edited April 16, 2020 by EmseB

[Ottakee]

It was stated by the hospital as well as local police that emergency traffic was NOT affected by this.   The clip shown of the ambulance in traffic was NOT dispatched to an emergency and was delayed just a very short time.  They did not have lights or sirens on.

I do not agree with those that congregated outside of their vehicles, etc but some sources are claiming things that did not occur.

I see this on both sides..... deliberately posting half truths.   That makes it hard for people to trust either side.

We need a unified plan to look at what is needed and WHY and have a plan.  A plan that supports marajuana and lottery ticket sales but not garden centers or postpones most surgeries in areas with very few cases is not reasonable.  Neither is a plan that just opens everything up overnight.  There needs to be a balance.

[Corraleno]

1 hour ago, Arctic Mama said:

And yet somehow this isn’t a massive issue in Ohio.  Honestly she is making problems needlessly with this.  Micromanaging people’s shopping habits even further is just pissing people off and looking like a despot, when somehow Florida and Texas and California and North Carolina and Kentucky can manage it.  What seems to be controlling infections rates are when things closed down, poverty factors, pre existing conditions, etc.  Not the garden center.

None of those states have anything like the number of deaths that Michigan is dealing with, in either total numbers or deaths per million:

CA: 889 deaths, 23 p/m
FL: 633 deaths, 31 p/m
TX: 393 deaths, 14 p/m
NC: 139 deaths, 14 p/m
OH: 389 deaths, 33 p/m
KY 122 deaths,  27 p/m

MI: 1,921 deaths, 193 p/m

Do you see a difference there??? Why would anyone think that the same rules should apply in a state where the number of deaths is vastly higher, where there are bodies piling up in hospital storage rooms and in parking lots full of refrigerated trucks?

Edited April 16, 2020 by Corraleno

[Hadley]

This thread makes me so sad.  I have a different political affiliation than many on this board, I am quite certain.  However, I don’t think that makes me stupid, misogynistic, or evil.  I assure you.  Our party didn’t send out chips for everyone’s brain so that we would think in lockstep about every issue.  Again, I can see nuances.  No solution is perfect.  I just can’t wrap my mind around the fact that some of you think the answer is so easy on either side of this!  

And whatever happened to the no politics rule????

[Spy Car]

1 hour ago, Arctic Mama said:

Yeah, no.  That’s not really it.  There are plenty of Democrat governors who are managing this better without drama and excess fighting.  Whitmer is... a piece of work.  It’s not because she is a woman, or a Democrat.  That’s just playing needless identity politics when he has managed to work fine with plenty of women AND Democrats on this.

 

Have any other governors been labeled "That Woman"?

The sexism seems pretty obvious to this man.

Bill

[SpecialClassical]

19 hours ago, Corraleno said:

I thought the prohibition on plant sales was only for big box stores (>50,000 sq'), to try to limit the numbers of people shopping there, and regular plant nurseries and garden centers were allowed to be open. Is that not true? 

Perhaps someone has answered you, but I’ll answer anyway.  I am a Michigander. That is right.  However, in her address to Michigan the day she handed down the new restrictions she very clearly said that if you aren’t going to the store for medicine, groceries or other essentials you should stay home. It caused a lot of confusion. Many of her restrictions have been confusing, or arbitrary as in the case of lottery tickets and liquor stores being essential.  I’m speaking objectively as a citizen that knows she has a hard job. 

[Corraleno]

1 minute ago, Arctic Mama said:

Precisely because the issues with their death tots are not attributable to shopping habits replicated in other states with lower totals.  It is other factors, and there are different and more effective measures than micromanaging shopping habits like that. 

People are complaining about things like not being able to get their hair done, or go boating, or play golf, all of which are true in many, if not most, states. The claim that they can't buy seeds or grow a garden are false — they can order online, go to smaller places, or do pickup from big box stores.

The motivation behind this protest is very clearly political; it was not a spontaneous uprising, it was organized and heavily promoted by a political organization. Similar organizations are planning similar protests in many of the other states you cited as not having these kinds of protests, as if that proves that the one in MI is clearly the result of Whitmer's policies and not politically motivated.

1 hour ago, Arctic Mama said:

Micromanaging people’s shopping habits even further is just pissing people off and looking like a despot, when somehow Florida and Texas and California and North Carolina and Kentucky can manage it.

 

What are the specific restrictions in Michigan which you feel are so different than other states?  Are you claiming golf courses and hairdressers should be open in Michigan?