Autism question

[Scarlett]

My SIL is raising her great nephew.  She had had him almost since birth....when he was around 3 she got guardianship of him.  His parents and grandparents both have addiction issues, in and out of jail.....he has really been fortunate that his great aunt stepped up.  
 

Anyway he has always been quirky.....and I could never tell if there was an actual issue or if he was just spoiled rotten and/or alternatively subjected to crap when he was forced by court order to go on visitation to his moms or her family.  My SIL and my niece thinks he is the most wonderful child ever. They really really spoil him.   
 

The other day on FB a mutual friend posted an Autism Awareness post...and my SIL struck up a public conversation with her and it was as if her great nephew does have Autism.  So that was the first thing.....we had never been told that.  So not sure if it is a new diagnosis or she just assumes or what. But I would not  be a bit surprised by such a diagnosis.  
 

She told this story of how she loves how his mind works....that in school one time the instructions were to color everything blue that rhymes with pail.  He failed to color the dogs tail blue and was marked wrong on that.  SIL asked him why he didn’t color the dogs tail blue and he said because he had never seen a blue tail on a dog.  
 

So is that actual autism thing? If I had a kid tell me that I would have said, ‘the instructions were not to color things the way you think they should be.’.  I would have seen a kid who thinks he knows more than his instructors.  
 

It has been in the back of my mind for weeks....so I thought I would get y’all opinion on that.

Edited April 13, 2020 by Scarlett

[Jean in Newcastle]

One characteristic of autism is to be very literal in their thinking.  Now it can depend on where on the spectrum they are.  My ds can understand and use puns for example but not everyone can. 

 

[sbgrace]

Rigid thinking and/or very literal interpretation can be part of an autism picture, sure. 

I'd say, genrally, that the things my neurotypical son will do often have entirely different reasons and motives than his brother on the spectrum would have for doing similar things. 

 

Edited April 13, 2020 by sbgrace

[Scarlett]

I am remembering  a time a young friend of ours who is on the spectrum was drafting at the same place Dh was.  The client wanted something done on the plans that was non conventional.  Friend was so upset.  He had a pen and was marking up the papers HARD and saying ‘ I don’t do wrong work!’  He is very high functioning but he justcould not tolerate what he felt was ‘wrong’. 

[hippiemamato3]

Unless the dog's tail was pointed out separately from the dog itself, I would not have colored it either.  

[bolt.]

Autism is a spectrum, and the edges seem fuzzy even in the medical community -- more so among parents.

In reality many kids who are insulted or punished for "thinking they know more than their instructors" are actually kids who are doing their best with a style of cognition that compels them towards literal thinking, precision, and rigidity. Those kids are not new, but a compassionate way of trying to see things their way is new. They used to just get in trouble (or fail), now we try, in actual good faith, to help them handle weirdly-hard situations better.

It's legitimately hard for some children to follow (in this case) 2 sets of rules, that are equally important and both feel mandatory. It *feels mandatory* to colour dogs truthfully -- even when the instructions say otherwise. It creates a legitimate mental conflict that can reduce kids to tears. Colouring dogs untruthfully is not a fair assignment unless every child is 100% neurotypical. (And there never has been a classroom where every child is 100% neurotypical.)

But, as for that trait alone being a flag for autism -- probably not enough for a diagnosis. I can see why it makes her curious about the autism spectrum as a relevant possibility though.

[katilac]

18 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

I would have seen a kid who thinks he knows more than his instructors.  

 As far as autism goes, it's something that would not be surprising in a student with ASD, but also would not be surprising in a neurotypical student. It has little meaning on its own. 

An adult being upset by a child  who doesn't think dogs should be blue is also a form of rigid thinking.  The point of the assignment is to distinguish rimes. If a student turns it in with no comment, of course it gets marked wrong (as it did in this case). If a student brings it up, I'd simply say, "If you don't want to use blue to color all of the matching rimes, you must also put a big check mark next to the picture." Or whatever suits. Not a big deal. 

[PeterPan]

40 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

She told this story of how she loves how his mind works

It sounds like she has things she's done privately (evals, whatever) that she's not ready to talk about completely publicly. I mean, nuts, I didn't just go on Facebook and *announce to the world* the day my ds got diagnosed. But I don't avoid talking about it in a thread if I want to. 

And yes, that kind of literalism would go along with autism. Human trait that, with the collection of other things and significant effect on life, comes together as autism. It's not like autism traits are alien traits, lol. They're things people do, just not usually in the collection, to the degree, to the level of impact.

So did you reply to her post and outright ask? If she's bringing it up, she might be ready to talk about it. 

[Farrar]

A lot of families are hesitant about sharing a kid's diagnosis because they don't want the child to be treated differently or stigmatized, but then loosen up a little as time goes on, especially as the kid learns to advocate for themselves or as difficulties they faced move to challenges they overcame. So I wouldn't assume it's recent or about you if she didn't share. It could be that this is all in the process for her long term in figuring out how to talk about it and approach it.

As for the anecdote, I think we should all give kids a break around things like this. Regardless of whether they're neuroatypical or not, usually they have rigid thinking and aren't "being smart." It's sort of like assuming a baby is being manipulative when it cries. They're not. They're just being kids. Kids have rigid thinking. Yes, it's more common for some kids with ASD and persists longer. So assuming the best in a kid's motives generally helps support neurodiversity overall.

[Hadley]

I’d be hesitant to seek a diagnosis based on one incident, obviously.  I would, personally, expect to have a much larger pile of individual symptoms.

Honestly, sometimes elementary assignments are just asinine, especially for a bright kiddo.  That’s exactly why I pulled my son out of first grade.  He just didn’t want to play the non-sensical busy work game, and I didn’t want to play the teacher is always right just do whatever she wants you to do game.  

Perhaps I'm still a bit upset about the time my kindergarten teacher argued with me that I needed to use the crayon that she handed me to color the pumpkin.  The instructions said to color the pumpkin orange.  She handed me a peach-colored crayon.  A parent-teacher meeting ensued in which my mom, a professional artist, had to inform my teacher that I was indeed correct.  The crayon was peach.

Sometimes kids should be allowed to question authority...guess that’s why I homeschool.

[Tanaqui]

Quote

So is that actual autism thing? If I had a kid tell me that I would have said, ‘the instructions were not to color things the way you think they should be.’.  I would have seen a kid who thinks he knows more than his instructors.  

 

Whether or not this kid is autistic, or any kid is autistic, you should show more charity towards kids who do/say things like this.

[Scarlett]

3 hours ago, PeterPan said:

It sounds like she has things she's done privately (evals, whatever) that she's not ready to talk about completely publicly. I mean, nuts, I didn't just go on Facebook and *announce to the world* the day my ds got diagnosed. But I don't avoid talking about it in a thread if I want to. 

And yes, that kind of literalism would go along with autism. Human trait that, with the collection of other things and significant effect on life, comes together as autism. It's not like autism traits are alien traits, lol. They're things people do, just not usually in the collection, to the degree, to the level of impact.

So did you reply to her post and outright ask? If she's bringing it up, she might be ready to talk about it. 

It wasn't my post and no I did not get involved in the discussion.  I was just musing.  

And it is true kids just do things all over the map.  She was relating the incident as an autism type response though.  

[Scarlett]

34 minutes ago, Tanaqui said:

 

Whether or not this kid is autistic, or any kid is autistic, you should show more charity towards kids who do/say things like this.

You think it is uncharitable that I would expect a student to follow the directions of an assignment?

[Murphy101]

4 hours ago, Scarlett said:

So is that actual autism thing? If I had a kid tell me that I would have said, ‘the instructions were not to color things the way you think they should be.’.  I would have seen a kid who thinks he knows more than his instructors.  

Regardless if it was a kid on spectrum or not, I would have pointed out that the instructions weren’t about making it realistic.  And regardless of whether the kid knew more than his instructors, which frankly does happen more than instructors would appreciate knowing, I’d tell them that wasn’t the assignment either. 

13 minutes ago, Tanaqui said:

Whether or not this kid is autistic, or any kid is autistic, you should show more charity towards kids who do/say things like this.

I don’t think it’s necessarily uncharitable. Some kids, spectrum or not, do have attitudes with thinking they are smarter than everyone else. Some of them are.  Doesn’t excuse them from doing the work.  Character instruction isn’t uncharitable when done well.

Several scenarios would be evaluated if MY students/kids said that. Is it a random thought? Is it defiance with busy work?  Are they actually trying to articulate asking what purpose this lesson has? Do they think this is stupid and therefore beneath them intellectually? Are they feeling stupid because they don’t understand why they need to do this as instructed?

None of these usually quick micro-evaluations mean anything uncharitable towards the kids. Not at all.  I think nothing negative regardless of the reasoning. It’s nothing more than understanding how to guide them to a point where they can mostly happily manage to do their work as best as they can. 

[Lecka]

Personally it just got depressing to disclose over and over again.  Everybody said “are you sure?  Maybe not?  We hope not?” And I was just like — it’s been a long, long process, we are pretty sure, the services seem good so we are going for it based on thinking the information is correct....

It is just something that gets so old.  I don’t do it anymore and I gave up fairly early.

If I didn’t happen to see someone or if it didn’t happen to come up — I would not have brought it up, just from being sick of bringing it up.  
 

I think at this point people know “something” but might not think “autism.”  If it comes up it’s not a big deal to me.  Sometimes I have mentioned it in context, and people say “I thought...” or “I wondered...” That is fine with me. 
 

Edit:  I also do no special diet and could not possibly be up to doing a special diet.  And it’s not my thing and there’s no reason to think it would help my son (he has no signs of allergies, I have talked to quite a few people and many kids have signs of allergies but my son just does not).  So there is a little part of me going “please don’t ask me what he eats.”

Edited April 13, 2020 by Lecka

[bolt.]

2 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

You think it is uncharitable that I would expect a student to follow the directions of an assignment?

I think it would be charitable to assume that you are seeing either a best effort, an honest mistake, or feeling curious for more information about what went wrong.

The way you mentioned that you would jump to the conclusion that the child 'thought they knew better than their instructor' as the best explanation for their behaviour was what struck a few of us as an uncharitable assumption.

[kiwik]

Given the type of assignment I would assume the kids were young.  So why were they being marked wrong or otherwise?  Why didn't the teacher just say does tail rhyme with pail?  Oh dear you missed that one.  Presumably the exercise is supposed to work on rhyming not teaching the kids they are stupid.

[Scarlett]

3 minutes ago, Lecka said:

Personally it just got depressing to disclose over and over again.  Everybody said “are you sure?  Maybe not?  We hope not?” And I was just like — it’s been a long, long process, we are pretty sure, the services seem good so we are going for it based on thinking the information is correct....

It is just something that gets so old.  I don’t do it anymore and I gave up fairly early.

If I didn’t happen to see someone or if it didn’t happen to come up — I would not have brought it up, just from being sick of bringing it up.  
 

I think at this point people know “something” but might not think “autism.”  If it comes up it’s not a big deal to me.  Sometimes I have mentioned it in context, and people say “I thought...” or “I wondered...” That is fine with me. 

Well, I certainly do not have a expectation to be told anyone's child is on the spectrum.  However, I am very close to this SIL and this niece....and it seems a little unusual that it has never been mentioned.  But again, that is fine.  Maybe everyone already knew except me.  We don't live in the same town so that is possible. Maybe she assumed we knew.  

[Scarlett]

Just now, kiwik said:

Given the type of assignment I would assume the kids were young.  So why were they being marked wrong or otherwise?  Why didn't the teacher just say does tail rhyme with pail?  Oh dear you missed that one.  Presumably the exercise is supposed to work on rhyming not teaching the kids they are stupid.

I think it was a long time ago....and it wasn't the point of the story she was relating.....she just liked the way he thought.  He is 12 now.  And I don't think he thinks he is stupid.  At all.  

[Scarlett]

7 minutes ago, bolt. said:

I think it would be charitable to assume that you are seeing either a best effort, an honest mistake, or feeling curious for more information about what went wrong.

The way you mentioned that you would jump to the conclusion that the child 'thought they knew better than their instructor' as the best explanation for their behaviour was what struck a few of us as an uncharitable assumption.

Maybe more like what Murphy said up thread....that some kids do think they know more than everyone else...and even if they do they still have to follow instructions and complete the assignment.  

[kiwik]

7 minutes ago, Lecka said:

Personally it just got depressing to disclose over and over again.  Everybody said “are you sure?  Maybe not?  We hope not?” And I was just like — it’s been a long, long process, we are pretty sure, the services seem good so we are going for it based on thinking the information is correct....

It is just something that gets so old.  I don’t do it anymore and I gave up fairly early.

If I didn’t happen to see someone or if it didn’t happen to come up — I would not have brought it up, just from being sick of bringing it up.  
 

I think at this point people know “something” but might not think “autism.”  If it comes up it’s not a big deal to me.  Sometimes I have mentioned it in context, and people say “I thought...” or “I wondered...” That is fine with me. 
 

Edit:  I also do no special diet and could not possibly be up to doing a special diet.  And it’s not my thing and there’s no reason to think it would help my son (he has no signs of allergies, I have talked to quite a few people and many kids have signs of allergies but my son just does not).  So there is a little part of me going “please don’t ask me what he eats.”

Yes.  Can you imagine "my child has type 1 diabetes".  "Are you sure - have you tried the dog food diet?". My son being clever and able to imitate people quite well meant it took me 6 years to get a diagnosis and I am sure 

[catz]

12 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

Maybe more like what Murphy said up thread....that some kids do think they know more than everyone else...and even if they do they still have to follow instructions and complete the assignment.  

Meh - well not every educator or parent values hoop jumping above all.  For kids that just think outside that type of box all the time, it can be hard to be told you're wrong constantly.   I don't think the typical 5 year old would be trying to be pushing a teacher's buttons like this.  It's often the first time a kid like this has been asked to do something like this.  Dumb way to teach rhyming IMO.  

I have kids with quirks and we have lots of friends with dx.  I talk about that kind of stuff in very small circles.   If she perceives you judge the child as spoiled and disobedient, even if you haven't said as much, I can see why she might not think you're the right person to share and discuss a diagnosis with even if you have an otherwise cordial relationship.

Edited April 13, 2020 by FuzzyCatz

[Farrar]

4 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

Maybe more like what Murphy said up thread....that some kids do think they know more than everyone else...and even if they do they still have to follow instructions and complete the assignment.  

I think your assumption is what's off. I think this child at that time probably wasn't on some mission to subvert the assignment and think they're above the teacher. I think they thought, this doesn't make sense, my interpretation is probably right, surely this is what the teacher meant. But also, is a 5 yo misinterpreting an assignment a good reason to put the hammer down on that kid and put them in their place? Like, that's terrible educational practice. The teacher would just be setting up the kid to potentially hate school, hate the teacher, find everything even more confusing than this one blue tail assignment. All for one thing they had a different understanding of than the teacher. Like, whoa. This is so not worth it. It doesn't matter if the kid is ASD or not. It's just making it all into a power struggle with a 5 yo.

[kbutton]

1 hour ago, Tanaqui said:

Whether or not this kid is autistic, or any kid is autistic, you should show more charity towards kids who do/say things like this.

My ASD kiddo would've benefited from that kind of explanation if given nicely. Other times, he might have been frustrated by it--generally telling him that certain typical things are atypical in the assignment would've been helpful for him long-term.

As a parent, I would've just thought it was a dumb assignment unless I was specifically using it to help my son understand that sometimes two ways of thinking contradict, and that he was going to be experiencing a lot of that in the future, so let's talk about it. Let's just say that Hadley's story of why she homeschools is very like how that decision went for me, lol! 

6 minutes ago, FuzzyCatz said:

If she perceives you judge the child as spoiled and disobedient, even if you haven't said as much, I can see why she might not think you're the right person to share and discuss a diagnosis with even if you have an otherwise cordial relationship.

This. I have people I love dearly that say things that they don't realize are totally dismissive and make me keep information to myself. 

[Melissa in Australia]

Children who have experienced trauma  and children who have FASD both have many characteristics of Autism

[Lecka]

It’s really easy to assume people already know, or to lose track.  Really, really easy.  
 

Edit:  it’s also really easy to feel like “I always bring this up,” and just want to talk about something else, even if maybe a person has not been specifically told (or maybe they were and you forgot, or they heard anyway).  
 

 

Edited April 13, 2020 by Lecka

[Scarlett]

49 minutes ago, Melissa in Australia said:

Children who have experienced trauma  and children who have FASD both have many characteristics of Autism

Ah, well, see now that is interesting.  He was born premature and I am pretty sure addicted.  He was on oxygen even after he was released from the hospital.  And my young niece, in her early 20s at the time, was carting him around and caring for him while he was still on oxygen (to be clear---this is not her child...it is her first cousins child) ....So I always sort of assumed in the back of my mind that he might have suffered some damage in the womb.  But like I say, lots of kids are quirky and I didn't give it much thought.  

[Scarlett]

1 hour ago, Farrar said:

I think your assumption is what's off. I think this child at that time probably wasn't on some mission to subvert the assignment and think they're above the teacher. I think they thought, this doesn't make sense, my interpretation is probably right, surely this is what the teacher meant. But also, is a 5 yo misinterpreting an assignment a good reason to put the hammer down on that kid and put them in their place? Like, that's terrible educational practice. The teacher would just be setting up the kid to potentially hate school, hate the teacher, find everything even more confusing than this one blue tail assignment. All for one thing they had a different understanding of than the teacher. Like, whoa. This is so not worth it. It doesn't matter if the kid is ASD or not. It's just making it all into a power struggle with a 5 yo.

Yeah, well I have no reason to think the teacher or anyone else 'pulled the hammer down'.  It was marked wrong and my SIL thinks his explanation for why he did it 'wrong' was fascinating. And that was the basis for my question as to whether or not that is an autism type response.  

[Scarlett]

1 hour ago, FuzzyCatz said:

Meh - well not every educator or parent values hoop jumping above all.  For kids that just think outside that type of box all the time, it can be hard to be told you're wrong constantly.   I don't think the typical 5 year old would be trying to be pushing a teacher's buttons like this.  It's often the first time a kid like this has been asked to do something like this.  Dumb way to teach rhyming IMO.  

I have kids with quirks and we have lots of friends with dx.  I talk about that kind of stuff in very small circles.   If she perceives you judge the child as spoiled and disobedient, even if you haven't said as much, I can see why she might not think you're the right person to share and discuss a diagnosis with even if you have an otherwise cordial relationship.

I never said 'above all'.  For Petes sake.  But I do believe there is value in learning to follow social conventions like follow a teacher's instructions even if you think it is dumb unless there is a good reason not to.  

And no she is not perceiving I am judging her child as spoiled.  Lots of assumptions here.... I have never said an unkind word about him to her or to my niece (niece has been very involved in raising her 1st cousins child)....not a raised eyebrow or anything.  He is a sweet kid, very self assured, and yes they do absolutely spoil him to pieces.  Which is fine.  The child has been dealt some tough cards and my SIL raising him has been his saving grace.  So I don't begrudge anyone spoiling him.  

[Rosie_0801]

Once upon a time I was a 4 year old who refused to put lemon in her marmalade at kinder because I didn't like lemon.

There's 4 year old logic for you. 

If I'd been the adult in the situation, I would have explained that lemon doesn't taste so sour when it has been cooked with all that sugar, and it could be interesting for me to try it, because, after all, if I still don't like it, I could give it away as a present to someone who did.

The adults in the situation were not like me, but they also weren't the type to make mountains out of molehills, so I went happily home with my orange marmalade.

[Scarlett]

1 minute ago, Rosie_0801 said:

Once upon a time I was a 4 year old who refused to put lemon in her marmalade at kinder because I didn't like lemon.

There's 4 year old logic for you. 

If I'd been the adult in the situation, I would have explained that lemon doesn't taste so sour when it has been cooked with all that sugar, and it could be interesting for me to try it, because, after all, if I still don't like it, I could give it away as a present to someone who did.

The adults in the situation were not like me, but they also weren't the type to make mountains out of molehills, so I went happily home with my orange marmalade.

That is sweet.  And like I have said several times, I don't think this child was traumatized by his teachers at all.  

[Janeway]

First, just because she did not tell you he has ASD does not mean he has not been diagnosed. I generally do not tell people at all. On that note though, I have found that people who have children who have been diagnosed with ASD have had to deal with a number of parents who like to blame anything their children do on ASD, even when their children have not been diagnosed.  I am talking about discipline issues or some other difficulty. No one ever seems to show up saying "my child is amazing at math, he might have autism." Nope, it is always "my child mouths off to the teacher, we think he has autism" or "my child hits people, we think he has autism." This is always including some explanation about how they won't even tell their child no because they think the child has autism. 

I do not know the situation with your relative. It is possible the child just did not realize it was supposed to be a tail. It is possible that the child has been diagnosed with ASD, but the whole not coloring the tail blue thing is not really an ASD thing.

[Scarlett]

21 minutes ago, Janeway said:

First, just because she did not tell you he has ASD does not mean he has not been diagnosed. I generally do not tell people at all. On that note though, I have found that people who have children who have been diagnosed with ASD have had to deal with a number of parents who like to blame anything their children do on ASD, even when their children have not been diagnosed.  I am talking about discipline issues or some other difficulty. No one ever seems to show up saying "my child is amazing at math, he might have autism." Nope, it is always "my child mouths off to the teacher, we think he has autism" or "my child hits people, we think he has autism." This is always including some explanation about how they won't even tell their child no because they think the child has autism. 

I do not know the situation with your relative. It is possible the child just did not realize it was supposed to be a tail. It is possible that the child has been diagnosed with ASD, but the whole not coloring the tail blue thing is not really an ASD thing.

Right.  I am aware he could be diagnosed and her not tell me.  Obviously.  The public conversation was as if it is a well known fact.  

And she was the one assigning ASD to his behaviors.  But not in a negative way.

[gardenmom5]

2 hours ago, kiwik said:

Yes.  Can you imagine "my child has type 1 diabetes".  "Are you sure - have you tried the dog food diet?". My son being clever and able to imitate people quite well meant it took me 6 years to get a diagnosis and I am sure 

My dd was an adult, and *very* good at masking.  Definite issues though, and she talked with different drs for years trying to get to the bottom of things.

Even if I'd suspected when she was 12 (when hormones kick in, everything is worse and that's when her issues became very noticeable.) - the ped I had wouldn't have been helpful.  I ended up firing him when he kept dismissing my concerns about dudeling.

 

Teachers do make wrong assumptions.

Or the kid having a kindergarten introduction with the teacher, and being asked to pick her favorite color crayon and write her name on the paper.  And she doesn't.  So the teacher assumes she can't write her name. - No, her favorite color crayon wasn't available.

Or the child whose mother is told her child has no pre-reading skills, and the teacher is very concerned.  - never mind this kid started reading when she was four.  (same age as 2ds, I'd start reading them stories and she'd take over . . . . M__ do you want to read?  or do you want me to read?)

 

I heard so many "you're parenting wrong" comments, I did share dudeling's diagnosis.  I wanted to at least shut them up.   Two in particular I still have unkind feelings about their sanctimoniousness - one of whom never apologized, but actually had the audacity to come up to me and ask how he was as if she'd always cared rather than condemning to my face (as well as behind my back - it got back to me)  because she thought my parenting skills were lacking and that he was just a brat.  Another one kept wanting to refer me to parenting classes for "difficult children" . . . she'd always forget to bring the information, just tell me I should check it out.  One day, she came up to me and said "you're doing a great job".   I don't know what changed, but it was a complete turn around.

let's face it - there are parents/adults out there that shouldn't be anywhere near an autistic child.

[hippiemamato3]

2 hours ago, Scarlett said:

You think it is uncharitable that I would expect a student to follow the directions of an assignment?

Some of the most brilliant kids i know struggle with (or refuse to) follow directions. 

[Carrie12345]

My kid was diagnosed around age 4, and I’d often forget who I’d rambled to about it for hours and who I hadn’t mentioned it to.  I never felt a need to inform everyone, but sometimes I’d just get on a roll if the topic (or, like, asking for a babysitter when I’d take him to an appointment) came up.
To this day (something like 17 years later,) I couldn’t tell you who, close to me or not, actually knows for a fact that he is dx’Ed.

[Carrie12345]

Adding just for conversation, ds is the main reason I’ve intentionally raised kids to question authority and lean toward doing what THEY feel is right.  That said, they would all want a dog to have a blue tail, judging by what they do with their own hair!

[Scarlett]

46 minutes ago, hippiemamato3 said:

Some of the most brilliant kids i know struggle with (or refuse to) follow directions. 

But I don’t think intelligence is relevant to this point.  

[hippiemamato3]

6 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

But I don’t think intelligence is relevant to this point.  

I guess I'm saying that not following directions isn't a big deal to me when it comes to this kind of thing. Learning to drive, yes. Coloring a sheet of paper? No. 

[Rosie_0801]

1 hour ago, CuriousMomof3 said:

 

As someone who has taught a number of 5 year olds with ASD and other disabilities, i don't believe that most 5 year olds who answer that way are thinking "That's dumb, I'm not going to do it". 

 

There's always one, and that one was me. *sigh* Also at the age of 4 I refused to say "May I please leave the table" because I thought it sounded stupid. Why I decided the day my mother was on milk and fruit duty was the day to stage a protest is beyond me. There was quite the argument between Mum and the teachers about whether or not I should be kept in from outside play. The teachers eventually got their way and let me out. Even I thought they shouldn't have, but went anyway.

I was a rather obnoxious child, I fear.

[Melissa in Australia]

ops, 

 

Edited April 14, 2020 by Melissa in Australia

[Melissa in Australia]

FASD chart.pdf

Edited April 14, 2020 by Melissa in Australia

[Melissa in Australia]

Just posted a FASD chart showing the overlap between different diagnosis and FASD. please note that a child will not necessarily have all of the characteristics 

[Carrie12345]

7 hours ago, Rosie_0801 said:

 

There's always one, and that one was me. *sigh* Also at the age of 4 I refused to say "May I please leave the table" because I thought it sounded stupid. Why I decided the day my mother was on milk and fruit duty was the day to stage a protest is beyond me. There was quite the argument between Mum and the teachers about whether or not I should be kept in from outside play. The teachers eventually got their way and let me out. Even I thought they shouldn't have, but went anyway.

I was a rather obnoxious child, I fear.

As someone who thinks she could almost play psychologist (not really, but some days I feel like I majored in behaviors in the 00s and now feel like I’m cramming for an advanced cert, lol) I’d bet an ice cream cone that you had a bigger reason than “it sounded stupid”, though you may not have understood what it was at the time. If we were to take it a step further, I’m sure there’s a real reason you chose that day to put your foot down, too!

Sorry. I was really gearing up to take some CLEP tests and convince myself to *actually get a degree right before all this stuff happened, so now I feel like I have an open switch and no outlet. And, obviously, I’ve been reading stacks on maladaptive behaviors for almost 2 months and still only have my run of the mill kids to practice on. I might burst from time to time!

[Rosie_0801]

1 minute ago, Carrie12345 said:

As someone who thinks she could almost play psychologist (not really, but some days I feel like I majored in behaviors in the 00s and now feel like I’m cramming for an advanced cert, lol) I’d bet an ice cream cone that you had a bigger reason than “it sounded stupid”, though you may not have understood what it was at the time. If we were to take it a step further, I’m sure there’s a real reason you chose that day to put your foot down, too!

Sorry. I was really gearing up to take some CLEP tests and convince myself to *actually get a degree right before all this stuff happened, so now I feel like I have an open switch and no outlet. And, obviously, I’ve been reading stacks on maladaptive behaviors for almost 2 months and still only have my run of the mill kids to practice on. I might burst from time to time!

 

Well, I thought it sounded stupid because people do not ordinarily use that phrasing in every day life, and everyone perfectly understands the vernacular. Not that I knew the word vernacular back then. Do you win an ice cream cone? 

[Carrie12345]

3 minutes ago, Rosie_0801 said:

 

Well, I thought it sounded stupid because people do not ordinarily use that phrasing in every day life, and everyone perfectly understands the vernacular. Not that I knew the word vernacular back then. Do you win an ice cream cone? 

Maybe we can split it! No, make that one for each, I don’t share.
”May I please leave the table” was a pretty ordinary phrase to hear when I was a kid (which was the same era, different continent, I’m sure) but my parents never had us use it. I might have expected my mother to stand with “family rules” for 4yo me and used that opportunity to behave the way that felt more normal to me.

I don’t think all 4yos can fully grasp the concept of different rules for different spaces. For 4yos with rigid thinking, I imagine it could be torture.

[Rosie_0801]

6 minutes ago, Carrie12345 said:

I don’t think all 4yos can fully grasp the concept of different rules for different spaces. For 4yos with rigid thinking, I imagine it could be torture.

 

Lol. I perfectly understood that.

But anyway. This thread is not about 4yo me.

[gardenmom5]

6 hours ago, Eliana said:

Why?

What is the inherent value in following instructions that don't make sense?  Or, for that matter in completing an assignment if it isn't teaching something?

 

two things come to mind about "instructions that don't make sense" - 1) the child understands what they're supposed to do, even if they don't understand why they're supposed to do it.  (which could be mindless busywork - or it could have an actual foundational building block.  the example given was supposed to be learning about rhymes.  maybe it's a good method, maybe not.  likely some kids learned something and others didn't.)

and 2) -they simply don't even understand what they're supposed to do.

too many adults - teaching cert or not, seem to think because they gave an instruction, kids will automatically understand what they want and do it.  As a child with LDs - I can assure them, I frequently did not - so the assignment would remain undone.  By the time I got to high school, I finally worked up enough nerve to ask when I didn't understand the direction - only to be told to go back and reread them. repeatedly.  didn't matter if I read them another dozen times - I simply didn't understand! - so I'd guess, and guess wrong, and get dinged for it on the assignment. and . . . the teacher would get mad because they thought I was deliberately being a smarty pants with my answer,  or deliberately being obtuse when not giving an answer.

some teachers are too lazy to be teaching - at least two of my kids had the very same LD as me.  So, I'd sit with them, and try to explain the instructions in completely different ways until a light bulb would click.

Kids with LDs do learn from the adults around them  - if they don't understand the directions -  to not do anything because the fall-out of  doing it wrong can be worse than not doing it at all.

Edited April 14, 2020 by gardenmom5

[Scarlett]

8 hours ago, Eliana said:

Why?

What is the inherent value in following instructions that don't make sense?  Or, for that matter in completing an assignment if it isn't teaching something?

 

Sometimes things don’t make sense to us until they do. And we sometimes don’t immediately see the value of what is being taught.  

[Tanaqui]

19 hours ago, Scarlett said:

You think it is uncharitable that I would expect a student to follow the directions of an assignment?

 

I think the fact that you frame this as "It sounds like a kid who thinks they know more than the teacher" is extremely, and unhelpfully, judgmental.