wuhan - coronavirus

[Ausmumof3]

https://www.ox.ac.uk/news/2022-03-03-recovery-trial-shows-baricitinib-reduces-deaths-patients-hospitalised-covid-19
 

RECOVERY trial from UK

The Randomised Evaluation of COVID-19 Therapy (RECOVERY) trial has demonstrated that baricitinib, an anti-inflammatory treatment normally used to treat rheumatoid arthritis, reduces the risk of death when given to hospitalised patients with severe COVID-19.

it doesn’t seem to be a massive effect but at least it’s something else in the toolbox I guess.

Edited March 4, 2022 by Ausmumof3

[ktgrok]

On 2/22/2022 at 5:44 PM, Ausmumof3 said:

https://www.cell.com/cell/fulltext/S0092-8674(22)00072-1

Small study on factors influencing likelihood of long covid

https://www.abc.net.au/radio/programs/coronacast/restrictions-finally-easing-up.-are-they-gone-for-good/13765724

And some discussion on it at the end of Coronacast

The four factors mentioned are 

type 2 diabetes

higher viral load during infection

reactivating of Epstein-Barr

Specific autoantibodies (linked to Lupus but not necessarily people with Lupus if I understand right)

My sister with long covid definitely had a high viral load - two kids sick with it, sleeping in bed with her, snuggling with her, etc. 

[ktgrok]

Meanwhile, in Florida, we are surprised anywhere even has mask mandates....our school mandate was "unless the parent says they don't have to" so, not actually a mandate, ever. 

I REALLY am confused why the existence of kids under 5 seems to be totally ignored by people making policy. Like, if I hear one more time, "now that everyone can be vaccinated" when NO CHILD UNDER 5 is vaccinated, I may scream. 

And given that we KNOW vaccinated people can spread it to those kids - we can't let up yet! My husband's only in person job is teaching at a university, and he got a letter asking how he feels about letting up on masks. He told them he WILL NOT teach in person if masks are lifted until our youngest is vaccinated. Period. 

I'm worried they will be lifting mask mandates at church now. It is my 4 yr old's only social outlet, but we can't do it if they lift the mask mandate. 

[bookbard]

On 3/5/2022 at 12:30 AM, ktgrok said:

Meanwhile, in Florida, we are surprised anywhere even has mask mandates....

Yeah there's none left here in NSW (except in aged care and hospitals), they dropped them a week ago and numbers have already begun going up again.  I really wonder how the floods will affect spread - people crammed together in evacuation centres is a covid disaster, but then schools and workplaces closed down can stop spread. A local school here has had a massive outbreak but has now been closed due to floods - hoping that will stop some of the spread. 

[lewelma]

Numbers of Omicron are skyrocketing here in NZ, but deaths are still low - only 65 people in total for the past 2 years. There were only 5 new deaths this week. We all know there is a time delay on deaths, but so far our rate is low due to the high vaccination and boosting. They are thinking omicron has already peaked in Auckland, and will peak in the rest of NZ in about 3 weeks. 

Edited March 6, 2022 by lewelma

[bookbard]

23 hours ago, lewelma said:

our rate is low due to the high vaccination and boosting. They are thinking omicron has already peaked in Auckland, and will peak in the rest of NZ in about 3 weeks. 

Really hope NZ does well with this wave!

Can't get kids vaccine #2 for a few weeks due to the flooding, alas; only a few Drs available and no vaccination clinics. Oh well! At least the kids are isolated for the moment. I am really noticing at the moment that kids who are getting it are pretty sick compared with the adults, and I'm assuming that's because the booster actually works. There are no double-vaxxed kids yet and the teens were vaxxed months ago so it's worn off. 

[Ausmumof3]

So far today… student 1 - clearly unwell - student 2 - ok but mentioned having been sick - student 3 - well but had been off every day except the one I had him last week - student 4 - absent. Half the class absent actually. 
 

I’ve had three negative RATs but feeling slightly headachey now so hoping that’s just mask wearing and tiredness.

Just got to get to Thursday and youngest gets his second vax. I wanted to have my parents look after kids in a couple of weeks but I think it’s looking too risky. 

[Ausmumof3]

Apparently some kind of data catch up happening here and we have another 23 deaths since the start of the year. Now 213 in total. Given it was only four before borders opened I guess that’s minimum 50 per month but most of them most likely in the last two months.

[bookbard]

Big jump in cases in NSW - was 5,000 just 2 weeks ago and now it's up to 16,000. No one wearing masks, rain keeping everyone indoors, and the Mardi Gras in Sydney added to the spread. All the people who've already had it are blasé, and yet people are dying daily. 

I have been able to keep the kids home from school since the floods began last Wednesday, and will be keeping them till they can get vaxxed next week. At least it's Easter holidays in a month's time, but then winter . . . so not looking forward to it. 

[Ausmumof3]

33 minutes ago, bookbard said:

Big jump in cases in NSW - was 5,000 just 2 weeks ago and now it's up to 16,000. No one wearing masks, rain keeping everyone indoors, and the Mardi Gras in Sydney added to the spread. All the people who've already had it are blasé, and yet people are dying daily. 

I have been able to keep the kids home from school since the floods began last Wednesday, and will be keeping them till they can get vaxxed next week. At least it's Easter holidays in a month's time, but then winter . . . so not looking forward to it. 

Jumping here as well, though not that much. 2,500 yesterday. Youngest just had his second vax yay!

As Norman Swan said yesterday, the number of people dying each day exceeds those killed in the floods and yet we have a totally different reaction. Not to minimise that tragedy but why are we minimising this one?

Edited March 10, 2022 by Ausmumof3

[Ausmumof3]

In positive news, one of my students who had family members with Covid earlier came in with the post vax sore arm yesterday. Just had the first shot. So there’s clearly some people still making that decision, even after having a brush with it. 

[popmom]

On 3/1/2022 at 5:08 PM, prairiewindmomma said:

I'm concerned for a variety of reasons namely:

1. I think comparing covid to influenza is a crappy comparison for all of the reasons we have re-hashed this issue over the boards for the last two years including but not limited to mortality rates, long covid rates, and long term burdens on our healthcare system.  I know more than a few kids who have had long term cardiac issues post-covid so while kids are LESS likely than old people to have issues, the complication rate for teens is still much higher than it is post-influenza.

2. I think we could address legitimate aspects of concerns surrounding masking (notably speech therapy) through other means or with limited de-masking during therapy time.

3. I am in an area which still is higher up on the down wave from omicron. I think they just released the National Guard soldiers from staffing duties at the hospital.  There aren't effective antibodies for the omicron variant here, nor is there easy access to testing or paxloid or molnupiravir. 

I've worn N95s through influenza season since 2008.  It's disingenuous to say "no one give's a rat's ass about influenza". I've had pneumonia several times and as an immunocompromised person there are a lot of ways in which I am already pushed out of society.  I don't know that every space should require masking, but I've volunteered in my kids' schools enough to know that there are a lot of kids with health issues who are now going to have their access to a safe school environment made a lot more complicated.  

In the last six WEEKS, we've had two elementaries shut down for 10 days in my district, and we had people from the central district office working as substitutes because the substitute shortage was so severe.  Classes were half empty and my teens were averaging notifications every other day that they had been in close proximity (less than 3 feet, and for more than 15 minutes, so a tablemate) to someone with covid.  Schools continued on and remained in session through all of that---but a much larger % of teachers were seriously ill than students. My son had one teacher have to quit, and another went onto long term leave. My daughter had one teacher go on leave--and it's been like a solid month now that they have been out. I value teachers, and as awful as this year has been, I think they are worthy of being protected.

My kids are going to continue masking because their greatest fear right now is that they will bring home covid to me, an immunocompromised person. That isn't a fear that I've given them. It's the sh!t reality that even a simple cold is quite serious for me.  They've already buried a sister so they feel death more keenly than most their ages. They realize that they are likely to be one of the few continuing to mask in a couple of weeks, but the choice is theirs, and they feel strongly that masking is an effective way to prevent illness and that school is going to be less safe for them and especially for their teachers since they will have more exposure.

Do I think we should mask forever? No, probably not, but I also think this isn't the right time to stop masking in schools. God help us all when B.A.2 or whatever the next huge surge is rolls through. It's going to be a battle to get people to mask again.

I don't think I saw this, so I wanted to respond.

1. I wasn't comparing the flu to covid. I've never, ever said covid was comparable to flu. I was comparing the response to flu with the response to Omicron. Sorry if I wasn't clear on that.

2. "It's disingenuous to say..." it's not. It's hyperbole. I myself have always been super cautious during flu season.

I really appreciate and sympathize with those like you who are immuno-compromised. I don't have the burden of that on me. I do have asthma--which is one reason I'm scared of the flu. It never occurred to me to wear a mask before the pandemic. I trusted that the vaccine would prevent serious illness, and I avoided crowded indoor events. I'm curious how your family dealt with cold and flu season before the pandemic? Did everyone wear masks then? Did you feel indignation over the fact that no one else was wearing masks during flu season except you (pre pandemic)? I don't mean any offense. So much has changed permanently because of COVID. Even tho I never considered wearing a mask during flu season before, I probably will from now on--COVID or no COVID. 

The overall feeling/vibe I get from most of y'all is so vastly different from 99% of people I come in contact with irl. Even those I know who are immuno-compromised due to Crohn's or chemotherapy or Down's Syndrome (parents of 3yr old and an adult) or Fetal Alcohol Syndrome(adults). That doesn't mean I think you are wrong. I appreciate you sharing your perspective. I think I'm just surprised at (and trying to reconcile) the degree of dissonance from folks like you and many other boardies vs what almost seems like the rest of the world. (more hyperbole for you) 😉 

ETA: adding a link. Maybe the vibe I get here is a misunderstanding. I feel like this article is very reasonable. Maybe you agree? https://www.nytimes.com/article/mask-mandates-guidelines.html

I appreciate the tone of the article--in that these questions are not irrational. 

Edited March 10, 2022 by popmom

[Jean in Newcastle]

6 minutes ago, popmom said:

I don't think I saw this, so I wanted to respond.

1. I wasn't comparing the flu to covid. I've never, ever said covid was comparable to flu. I was comparing the response to flu with the response to Omicron. Sorry if I wasn't clear on that.

2. "It's disingenuous to say..." it's not. It's hyperbole. I myself have always been super cautious during flu season.

I really appreciate and sympathize with those like you who are immuno-compromised. I don't have the burden of that on me. I do have asthma--which is one reason I'm scared of the flu. It never occurred to me to wear a mask before the pandemic. I trusted that the vaccine would prevent serious illness, and I avoided crowded indoor events. I'm curious how your family dealt with cold and flu season before the pandemic? Did everyone wear masks then? Did you feel indignation over the fact that no one else was wearing masks during flu season except you (pre pandemic)? I don't mean any offense. So much has changed permanently because of COVID. Even tho I never considered wearing a mask during flu season before, I probably will from now on--COVID or no COVID. 

The overall feeling/vibe I get from most of y'all is so vastly different from 99% of people I come in contact with irl. Even those I know who are immuno-compromised due to Crohn's or chemotherapy or Down's Syndrome (parents of 3yr old and an adult) or Fetal Alcohol Syndrome(adults). That doesn't mean I think you are wrong. I appreciate you sharing your perspective. I think I'm just surprised at (and trying to reconcile) the degree of dissonance from folks like you and many other boardies vs what almost seems like the rest of the world. (more hyperbole for you) 😉 

I don't know about other people but I did wear masks for the flu pre-Covid.  I had people shy away from me as if I were to give them the plague.  I had strangers ask me if I had cancer.  I seriously thought about getting a button that said "It's not me, it's you" to wear! 

I also used disinfectant wipes on shopping carts etc.

Now ironically I was on immunotherapy for a couple of years prior to Covid which allowed me to loosen up a bit and stop masking during flu season but prior to that I would look like a chipmunk from swollen lymph nodes every time I went to the grocery store. 

[popmom]

23 minutes ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

I don't know about other people but I did wear masks for the flu pre-Covid.  I had people shy away from me as if I were to give them the plague.  I had strangers ask me if I had cancer.  I seriously thought about getting a button that said "It's not me, it's you" to wear! 

I also used disinfectant wipes on shopping carts etc.

Now ironically I was on immunotherapy for a couple of years prior to Covid which allowed me to loosen up a bit and stop masking during flu season but prior to that I would look like a chipmunk from swollen lymph nodes every time I went to the grocery store. 

What were your feelings pre pandemic? When you had to mask and no one else did. How did that make you feel?

What do you think about the article I linked? I just added it.

eta: I have always used disinfecting wipes in public. Have been for 20 years. I know people thought I was a germaphobe. 

Edited March 10, 2022 by popmom

[Jean in Newcastle]

3 minutes ago, popmom said:

What were your feelings pre pandemic? When you had to mask and no one else did. How did that make you feel?

What do you think about the article I linked? I just added it.

eta: I have always used disinfecting wipes in public. Have been for 20 years. I know people thought I was a germaphobe. 

Can’t see the article. 
 

I felt embarrassed about masking when others weren’t masking (for any reason). But I did it anyway. I didn’t expect others  to mask but then we weren’t sharing a global pandemic. I did have medical professionals (doctors, physician assistants, and even medical receptionists) who thanked me for masking when I would come in with a contagious illness. 
 

I did have one person who came over to my house while obviously very ill with a flu or something. I literally stopped her at the door and wouldn’t let her enter. I felt like a terrible person for doing that but really they were the one out of line. 
 

So the answer to “how did you feel” was that I often felt like I was breaking social rules. But I had a couple of times where doctors told me that they were running out of treatments for me (six straight months of multiple antibiotics one year, seven months the next) and if my immune system hadn’t finally kicked in they honestly didn’t know what to do next. So weighing that against social awkwardness and it was no contest. 

[popmom]

32 minutes ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

 

I did have one person who came over to my house while obviously very ill with a flu or something. I literally stopped her at the door and wouldn’t let her enter. I felt like a terrible person for doing that but really they were the one out of line. 
 

 

I hate that you felt terrible for that because you are absolutely correct that they were out of line. I'm glad you made it through those scary times.

My closest cousin died from the flu at age 23. She had Hurler's Syndrome. I loved her so much. Her older sister's husband came to our Christmas gathering with the flu. That's how she got it.  I don't think he knew he had the flu but wasn't feeling well. This was in 1988/89. I was a freshman in college. 

Anyway...I'm off topic.

Edited March 10, 2022 by popmom

[Corraleno]

5 hours ago, popmom said:

ETA: adding a link. Maybe the vibe I get here is a misunderstanding. I feel like this article is very reasonable. Maybe you agree? https://www.nytimes.com/article/mask-mandates-guidelines.html

I appreciate the tone of the article--in that these questions are not irrational. 

The whole "meh, kids rarely get seriously ill" argument is not convincing to me in light of the potentially life-long consequences of long covid. And the idea that masks in school are pointless because kids often don't wear them after school ignores the very real threat to teachers and other school staff who are exposed to hundreds of kids every day. Why aren't teachers worthy of protection? I think the blatant disregard for teachers' lives throughout this pandemic is going to have far-reaching consequences for years, if not decades, to come. 

The rest of the article is just the usual: you probably don't need a mask outside or in large well-ventilated spaces, but if you're in a smaller space with lots of other people it's probably better to wear one, and definitely wear one on public transportation including airplanes. But some of the examples are silly: wear a mask in a small grocery store like Trader Joe's, but you don't need one in Costco — unless you're in line checking out, then you should wear one. Do people frequently go to Costco planning not to buy anything? What would be the point of walking around Costco maskless and then putting one on just to check out?

If this board seems unusually concerned with covid mitigation compared to your community, that may be more a reflection of your community. My state has had a mask mandate for two years now, which will become optional this weekend, although individual businesses and some colleges are keeping the mandate longer. Compliance in my area has been close to 100% throughout the pandemic, 84% of adults are double vaxxed, and most people here have been very cautious. Maybe that's why my county has one of the lowest per capita death rates in the country (~1 in 1150). It boggles my mind that there are large parts of the US where the death rate is more like 1 in 200, and yet those are the people most likely to be protesting masks and vaccines and demanding that everything go back to "normal." 

Edited March 10, 2022 by Corraleno

[KSera]

12 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

If this board seems unusually concerned with covid mitigation compared to your community, that may be more a reflection of your community. My state has had a mask mandate for two years now, which will become optional this weekend, although individual businesses and some colleges are keeping the mandate longer. Compliance in my area has been close to 100% throughout the pandemic, and most people here have been very cautious. Maybe that's why my county has one of the lowest per capita death rates in the country (~1 in 1150). It boggles my mind that there are large parts of the US where the death rate is more like 1 in 200, and yet those are the people most likely to be protesting masks and vaccines and demanding that everything go back to "normal." 

I could QFT your whole post, but especially this (and the kids part). The degree of covid care and masking expressed on this forum is pretty typical in my world, and what do you know, we have among the lowest per capita covid death rates in the country here as well (perhaps we're in the same place, lol). It's super frustrating how often I see people saying, "my county hasn't been wearing masks here all year, and it's fine here" and yet their area has a death rate many, many times greater than ours. No, it's really not just the same.

[popmom]

4 hours ago, Corraleno said:

The whole "meh, kids rarely get seriously ill" argument is not convincing to me in light of the potentially life-long consequences of long covid. And the idea that masks in school are pointless because kids often don't wear them after school ignores the very real threat to teachers and other school staff who are exposed to hundreds of kids every day. Why aren't teachers worthy of protection? I think the blatant disregard for teachers' lives throughout this pandemic is going to have far-reaching consequences for years, if not decades, to come. 

The rest of the article is just the usual: you probably don't need a mask outside or in large well-ventilated spaces, but if you're in a smaller space with lots of other people it's probably better to wear one, and definitely wear one on public transportation including airplanes. But some of the examples are silly: wear a mask in a small grocery store like Trader Joe's, but you don't need one in Costco — unless you're in line checking out, then you should wear one. Do people frequently go to Costco planning not to buy anything? What would be the point of walking around Costco maskless and then putting one on just to check out?

If this board seems unusually concerned with covid mitigation compared to your community, that may be more a reflection of your community.

FIRST, I did not ask you. But I do value your opinion.
 

The article you take issue with is from the NYTs. Not “my community”. My community is not at all different from communities across the country and the world in this respect. (You would also have to take that up with the CDC and WHO.) I think the NYT article speaks to that. 
 

I’m sensing some hostility (perhaps not toward me in particular) so I’ll leave now (because hostility generally doesn’t foster intellectually honest discourse). I’ll leave y’all to your echo chamber. 😉 No ill feelings on my part, I promise. 
 

Taking note of the questions I asked that haven’t been answered.

Edited March 10, 2022 by popmom

[Ausmumof3]

2 hours ago, popmom said:

FIRST, I did not ask you. But I do value your opinion.
 

The article you take issue with is from the NYTs. Not “my community”. My community is not at all different from communities across the country and the world in this respect. (You would also have to take that up with the CDC and WHO.) I think the NYT article speaks to that. 
 

I’m sensing some hostility (perhaps not toward me in particular) so I’ll leave now (because hostility generally doesn’t foster intellectually honest discourse). I’ll leave y’all to your echo chamber. 😉 No ill feelings on my part, I promise. 
 

Taking note of the questions I asked that haven’t been answered.

I’m having a hard time figuring out what your questions are sorry. NYT is paywalled for me I think. I haven’t agreed with the shift on most mainstream media in approach to Covid, and many public health people don’t either. I can’t see covid as comparable to flu yet due to the number of deaths we have going on in summer down here even with omicron. The worst flu year we’ve had in the last five killed 1,181 according to a quick google. As far as I can see covid is over that already and we’re only two and a half months in, it’s summer and a much higher percentage are vaxed than the typical flu shot rate. 2.4pc of school kids in my state are currently infected (and that’s those tested - many aren’t testing) and over 500 teachers.  It’s definitely not at flu level here.

I still like the cholera analogy. You can’t move on from cholera without cleaning the water and we probably can’t move on from covid without figuring out how to run our buildings so the air stays clean.

i want to stop thinking about it, don’t get me wrong. I just don’t think we’re going to achieve that without taking the steps we need to fix things.

I will say our local community is way less cautious than this forum. I’m probably only one of two I know doing N95s and the only one making my primary school kid mask. Most people are over it and don’t care, even with our current death rates few people have come up close to a severe case because we managed to stave it off for so long I guess.

Edited March 10, 2022 by Ausmumof3

[ktgrok]

I will say that my family practice doctor's office still requires masks - I was there two days ago. And have a sign saying if you choose not to mask you will be asked to leave. Period. 

 

[Faith-manor]

13 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

I will say that my family practice doctor's office still requires masks - I was there two days ago. And have a sign saying if you choose not to mask you will be asked to leave. Period. 

 

Same here. A lot of people are unhappy about it, but the doctors are not relenting. Some still have their waiting rooms closed, and people are to wait in their cars, and will be called/texted to come in or if they do not have a cell phone, a receptionist will run out to the car. Admittedly in winter weather, it isn't fun sitting in the car. But it is what it is, and I don't blame the docs one bit for sticking with strict protocols.

I do think between the 2 million plus who have had positive tests and the gargantuan number of people who did not test due to mild symptoms in addition to 50% or more vaccinated (some counties are higher, some are lower), we have a shot with warm weather approaching and everyone hitting the great outdoors, of a decent reprieve for a while. However, I am not counting my chickens before they hatch. Who knows what a new variant will bring. I think we are pretty much of the "permanently shunning large groups in indoor spaces" kind of people. Year two of not having colds, flu, laryngitis, stomach bug, etc. and most of that with cloth masks though KN95's were our mask of choice this winter, and I am kind of sold. I have really enjoyed feeling so much better all winter. We will attend an outdoor DSO concert this summer, and that will probably be the farthest I can stretch my comfort zone at this time. Our vacation out west to Badlands, Custer State Park, the big train yard in Nebraska, and the Danish American Museum and genealogy center is May 1st - May 10 which is NOT peak time so social distancing when indoors and masks, but mostly an outdoor vacation with lots of social distancing.

Yesterday there were roughly 850 cases each day over a two-day period. So definitely Michigan is coming down. I am finally getting a hair cut, the 18th, and hope that cases are below 500 a day by then. 

[Terabith]

Our doctors’ office will not see anyone with upper respiratory symptoms in person.  It’s really annoying when someone has an ear infection and has to go to urgent care because PCP won’t see them to look.  They also definitely still require masks. 

[Corraleno]

23 hours ago, popmom said:

FIRST, I did not ask you. But I do value your opinion.
 

The article you take issue with is from the NYTs. Not “my community”. My community is not at all different from communities across the country and the world in this respect. (You would also have to take that up with the CDC and WHO.) I think the NYT article speaks to that. 
 

I’m sensing some hostility (perhaps not toward me in particular) so I’ll leave now (because hostility generally doesn’t foster intellectually honest discourse). I’ll leave y’all to your echo chamber. 😉 No ill feelings on my part, I promise. 
 

Taking note of the questions I asked that haven’t been answered.

I definitely did not intend any hostility, and I apologize if it came off that way.

You said you were "trying to reconcile the degree of dissonance from folks like [Prairiewindmomma] and many other boardies vs what almost seems like the rest of the world."  Since I'm one of those "other boardies" who agrees with Prairiewind and Jean, and since they were paywalled and I have a subscription, I thought I would provide a perspective on the article from "folks like [us]." If you did not want anyone other than Prairiewind and Jean to read or respond to the article, that wasn't clear to me. 

I understand that your community "is not at all different from communities across the country," my point was that there are also communities, like mine, where most people feel the same way as the boardies that you seem to think have extreme and unusual views. In my community, those views are mainstream. There is no cognitive dissonance that needs to be resolved when community opinions and outcomes (like death rate) align. The dissonance that I find difficult to resolve is when the communities most likely to insist that masks are pointless and vaccines are unnecessary tend to be the ones with terrible death rates. 

 

Edited March 11, 2022 by Corraleno
weird font

[Jean in Newcastle]

29 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

I definitely did not intend any hostility, and I apologize if it came off that way.

You said you were "trying to reconcile the degree of dissonance from folks like [Prairiewindmomma] and many other boardies vs what almost seems like the rest of the world."  Since I'm one of those "other boardies" who agrees with Prairiewind and Jean, and since they were paywalled and I have a subscription, I thought I would provide a perspective on the article from "folks like [us]." If you did not want anyone other than Prairiewind and Jean to read or respond to the article, that wasn't clear to me. 

I understand that your community "is not at all different from communities across the country," my point was that there are also communities, like mine, where most people feel the same way as the boardies that you seem to think have extreme and unusual views. In my community, those views are mainstream. There is no cognitive dissonance that needs to be resolved when community opinions and outcomes (like death rate) align. The dissonance that I find difficult to resolve is when the communities most likely to insist that masks are pointless and vaccines are unnecessary tend to be the ones with terrible death rates. 

 

I will piggyback off of this.  The point of my answer earlier is that from long before Covid, I learned to "do me" and let others "do themselves".  That changed a bit with a pandemic because I truly do believe that there are times to pull together to do things for the sake of the common good especially when it comes to a public health crisis.  I still believe that.  But all adults have had the opportunity to get vaccinated and most children.  I am comfortable in many settings with the "I'll do me and you do you" scenario partly because I have absolutely zero control over when effective vaccines might be available to those children who can't have them yet. 

I didn't make health decisions pre-Covid based on what everyone else in the community was doing and I am not now.  I'm basing my decisions on the current medical knowledge out there.  Current medical knowledge still supports masking (even if current medical communication is a bit wishy-washy about it).  I have said from the start that there is an element of spinning the roulette wheel to all of this.  No mitigation is 100%.  And on the flip side, the chance of getting Covid without mitigations isn't 100% either.  I don't think that scientists know enough yet why some people can gamble over and over again with Covid and not get it.  I'm happy that this works for some people.  I am just not that much of a gambler to chance it for myself. 

[wathe]

5 hours ago, Ausmumof3 said:

 

I still like the cholera analogy. You can’t move on from cholera without cleaning the water and we probably can’t move on from covid without figuring out how to run our buildings so the air stays clean.

 

This.  We need public health infrastructure.  It will be expensive. ( I'm not sure that we have the political will to get it done.)

[ktgrok]

1 hour ago, Terabith said:

Our doctors’ office will not see anyone with upper respiratory symptoms in person.  It’s really annoying when someone has an ear infection and has to go to urgent care because PCP won’t see them to look.  They also definitely still require masks. 

Oh, ours does see you with respiratory stuff - which makes me even more glad they require masks!

[popmom]

1 hour ago, Corraleno said:

I definitely did not intend any hostility, and I apologize if it came off that way.

You said you were "trying to reconcile the degree of dissonance from folks like [Prairiewindmomma] and many other boardies vs what almost seems like the rest of the world."  Since I'm one of those "other boardies" who agrees with Prairiewind and Jean, and since they were paywalled and I have a subscription, I thought I would provide a perspective on the article from "folks like [us]." If you did not want anyone other than Prairiewind and Jean to read or respond to the article, that wasn't clear to me. 

I understand that your community "is not at all different from communities across the country," my point was that there are also communities, like mine, where most people feel the same way as the boardies that you seem to think have extreme and unusual views. In my community, those views are mainstream. There is no cognitive dissonance that needs to be resolved when community opinions and outcomes (like death rate) align. The dissonance that I find difficult to resolve is when the communities most likely to insist that masks are pointless and vaccines are unnecessary tend to be the ones with terrible death rates. 

 

Thank you. That’s helpful. And very logical of course. I think I can see the “thread” (I can’t think of a better word) of certain/different responses that I’m seeing. Maybe not thread— variable?? Like the current pandemic response is a continuum and along that continuum the variable changes. I’m afraid of going further with this because I’m likely not making sense to anyone but me lol. Anyway, this picture helps me reconcile that dissonance I’m experiencing. 
 

And I do appreciate you chiming in—I really hope to hear from Prairiewind, too. But if not I think I’ve got it figured out. 

[popmom]

Oh, you can create a free account w NYTs. I used to be a paid subscriber, but I dropped awhile back. I just log in to my “free” account. I don’t have access to everything, but certain articles are available. 
 

Also most doctors offices here require masks. But the orthodontist did not—we were there yesterday. We have long overdue dentist appointments today, so waiting to see what his requirements are.

[prairiewindmomma]

I think one bit of nuance I could make clearer is why I feel differently about public school masking versus in general other places mandatory masking. I mentioned the “protect the teacher” issue but we haven’t talked about the compulsory nature of public school attendance yet. Homeschooling is an immense privilege many people don’t have. (We actually started off homeschooling for health reasons because we needed to shelter a kid.) Public schools require attendance and if your kid doesn’t attend, you are subject to truancy proceedings. Schools have long had policies that differ from society in general. If you are sick, you are banned from attending school.  People aren’t turned away from Target, however, if you show up coughing. You are turned away from school because the nature of participating in school is different (very close interactions for long periods of time) and because schools have a duty to be safe for all students, not just the healthy ones. Health care has traditionally been much the same—hospitals have long turned away pediatric visitors and limited other visitors during peak flu season, or during enterovirus outbreaks. The hospitals we frequent likewise did temperature screenings and offered masks. Nursing homes do the same. There’s not choice, really, in whether you go to these places and conditions inside are different from other communal spaces. 

My state has had indoor masking mandates for most of the pandemic and we have had significantly lower death rates compared to other states I have lived in. It feels a bit horrifying, honestly, to consider what our risks would have been if we still lived in our most previous state. I have talked to friends who have kids in schools there and there is good data based on attendance records that schools with masks had moderately lower student absences but very significantly lower teacher absences. People tend to focus on the “it’s mostly for the teachers” aspect without looking at how students are affected also. The incidence is less but for some the impact is still very significant (see my healthy kid friends with long COVID stories). 
 

I also think some of the risk analysis I have seen in the media has been a bit off. Trader Joe’s isn’t necessarily more risky than Costco. Look at Wathe’s CO2 monitoring she’s done. Costco seems to have a more passive ventilation system and like it’s not doing a lot of outside air exchanges with filtering. You can’t simply look at people per square foot and come up with a correct answer as to what is safe or not because aerosol flows don’t work that way. 

We lived in society for a long time where we didn’t have handicapped access to anything—no accommodations in bathrooms, no curb cuts, and so on. I think masking is a modern example of the issue—some places are going to become off limits because the risk is too high. I haven’t eaten inside a restaurant since February 2020. I might not ever again. The risk is too high for me. I have been functionally excluded because I can’t wear a mask and eat. There are places we shouldn’t exclude people—like schools. 
 

“I do me and you do you” only works in places where we have choice in attending and where we don’t mind (societally) excluding the vulnerable. 

[popmom]

7 hours ago, Ausmumof3 said:

I’m having a hard time figuring out what your questions are sorry. NYT is paywalled for me I think. I haven’t agreed with the shift on most mainstream media in approach to Covid, and many public health people don’t either. I can’t see covid as comparable to flu yet due to the number of deaths we have going on in summer down here even with omicron. The worst flu year we’ve had in the last five killed 1,181 according to a quick google. As far as I can see covid is over that already and we’re only two and a half months in, it’s summer and a much higher percentage are vaxed than the typical flu shot rate. 2.4pc of school kids in my state are currently infected (and that’s those tested - many aren’t testing) and over 500 teachers.  It’s definitely not at flu level here.

I still like the cholera analogy. You can’t move on from cholera without cleaning the water and we probably can’t move on from covid without figuring out how to run our buildings so the air stays clean.

i want to stop thinking about it, don’t get me wrong. I just don’t think we’re going to achieve that without taking the steps we need to fix things.

I will say our local community is way less cautious than this forum. I’m probably only one of two I know doing N95s and the only one making my primary school kid mask. Most people are over it and don’t care, even with our current death rates few people have come up close to a severe case because we managed to stave it off for so long I guess.

That’s fair. Sometimes I am not even sure what my questions are. 🙂 They evolve as I talk things through. And then I will realize—wait it’s not xyz that’s bothering me, it’s abc. I can’t always put my finger on it until further into the discussion. Sorry!

[prairiewindmomma]

I realized I forgot to answer about what life was life for my family Before Covid. I had a daughter with cancer who was neutropenic from chemo and later I had a preemie who was pretty high risk for her first year of life....  We essentially got excluded from society.  We homeschooled, we stayed home from places in the winter, and we wore masks when we went out (surgical or N95, depending on risk level).  Friends and family masked when they came to visit.  After my dd got hospitalized for a week from a friend not respecting our "please don't visit when sick" boundary, and later when I got pneumonia a few times from group activities, I really had to narrow my friend circle down to "Ride or Die" friends.  Like, literally, they all understand that I am making myself vulnerable by hanging with them unmasked these days so if we're getting together for lunch--we're doing it outside and I'm trusting them with my life. They will generally isolate for a couple of days beforehand and then test. I am immensely grateful for these people in my life who jump through a lot of hoops so that we can be friends. Like, tears are coming to my eyes thinking about it. I likewise am really grateful to my kids for all wearing N95s 8-12 hours a day to keep me safe at home.

I sat down with my rheumatologist this morning to ask again about the state of things in my life and whether I'm keeping the proper perspective on things given the changing CDC guidance, and she completely confirmed that this is my reality. I don't want to go into details on a public board (I have already shared way too many)---but if it helps to know whether medical doctors are advising me or whether I'm some paranoid anxious person at home---I'm doing what my doctors tell me. My N95s and I aren't breaking up anytime soon, but if we ever briefly cross paths on an isolated mountain hiking trail this summer, I'll likely wave to you unmasked. 🙂

[prairiewindmomma]

https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2022/03/10/1085792118/americans-stress-is-spiking-over-inflation-war-in-ukraine-survey-finds

The first couple of paragraphs are focused on inflation and Ukraine but the bulk of this article is about pandemic strain. I found the data points about average weight gain and % of people who think their lives have been changed forever by the pandemic interesting...

[Ausmumof3]

Interesting thread analysing where things are at currently with IFR, case loads etc. not a medical dude but his take on the data usually seems to be fairly thought out I think. You do need to read the full thread for nuance etc (or alternatively the FT article).

[Laura Corin]

Scotland's figures are rising even though most indoor masking - unlike in England - has not yet been lifted. I think private mixing is largely unmasked. Possible vaccine waning is too.

BBC News - Covid in Scotland: Hospital patient numbers highest in 13 months
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-60698453

[KSera]

14 minutes ago, Laura Corin said:

BBC News - Covid in Scotland: Hospital patient numbers highest in 13 months
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-60698453

Boy, that curve is not what anyone wants to see, is it? How discouraging 😥. 

[Laura Corin]

40 minutes ago, KSera said:

Boy, that curve is not what anyone wants to see, is it? How discouraging 😥. 

Yup. I really don't know what to do. With my brother's experience of post-covid liver damage I really don't want to get it. But I don't know that it's avoidable. I came back from London with flu - no positive LFT or PCR -having stayed well masked throughout except distanced outdoors plus indoors with my brother and sister-in-law. 

[Ausmumof3]

Here in Australia we are getting rid of quarantine for contacts altogether and National cabinet is trying to get rid of PCR tests for anyone with mild symptoms 

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-03-11/covid-close-contact-quarantine-rules-relaxed/100904428

[Corraleno]

1 hour ago, Laura Corin said:

Scotland's figures are rising even though most indoor masking - unlike in England - has not yet been lifted. I think private mixing is largely unmasked. Possible vaccine waning is too.

BBC News - Covid in Scotland: Hospital patient numbers highest in 13 months
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-60698453

That graph is terrifying. I didn't see anything the article about the variant — do you know if it might be BA2?

The explosion of BA2 in Denmark has been devastating, daily deaths are at the highest level of the entire pandemic — and don't even seem to have peaked yet.

[Laura Corin]

7 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

That graph is terrifying. I didn't see anything the article about the variant — do you know if it might be BA2?

The explosion of BA2 in Denmark has been devastating, daily deaths are at the highest level of the entire pandemic — and don't even seem to have peaked yet.

There's a technical briefing for England here - I haven't looked at it in detail but BA2 is definitely there https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1057359/Technical-Briefing-37-25February2022.pdf

ETA: here is a note on hospitalisation

Edited March 11, 2022 by Laura Corin

[Faith-manor]

That graph is scary! Hugs to Scotland!!!

I think for us, masks in public places and mostly continuing with our immediate family bubble will continue, and only gatherings outdoors in small groups like wandering around the botanical gardens and farmer's markets/nurseries/greenhouses or going to the lake and hanging out on the beach. I am so tired of this though. The dumb virus has no mercy for the weary! 

[bookbard]

Apparently NSW Health wants a return to masking, working from home and other restrictions before this latest surge goes out of control. Unfortunately the politicians are not keen, and therefore won't implement them until the hospitals fall over again. Schools are emptying because of covid; my friend said her son's science class (usually 30 kids) had two children in it. That was before the floods shut things for a week, so hopefully there is a chance for reset for some of them.

[Melissa Louise]

12 minutes ago, bookbard said:

Apparently NSW Health wants a return to masking, working from home and other restrictions before this latest surge goes out of control. Unfortunately the politicians are not keen, and therefore won't implement them until the hospitals fall over again. Schools are emptying because of covid; my friend said her son's science class (usually 30 kids) had two children in it. That was before the floods shut things for a week, so hopefully there is a chance for reset for some of them.

Multiple kids away in my classes; they tend to come back after two days. Can't ask if Covid - I think many aren't testing anyway. I was hoping we'd get a break over autumn, before hunkering down for winter, but it doesn't look like it. 

That isolation will be removed for close contacts is !!!!

We also have a mosquito problem in the playground, so worrying about JE as well. 

Oh my. 2022. No. 

[Rosie_0801]

My daughter was complimented on her face earlier this week. Her classmates at the school she's been attending for a month had never seen it before. 😄
(She had to take her mask off to eat on the obligatory team building camp. She's usually very strict about it because her housemate is an essential worker.)

[kbutton]

13 hours ago, Laura Corin said:

Yup. I really don't know what to do. With my brother's experience of post-covid liver damage I really don't want to get it. But I don't know that it's avoidable. I came back from London with flu - no positive LFT or PCR -having stayed well masked throughout except distanced outdoors plus indoors with my brother and sister-in-law. 

While flu rates have been lower with masking, I wonder if masks are as effective against the flu as they are against Covid. Does anyone know right off-hand?

[Ausmumof3]

1 minute ago, Rosie_0801 said:

My daughter was complimented on her face earlier this week. Her classmates at the school she's been attending for a month had never seen it before. 😄
(She had to take her mask off to eat whole on the obligatory team building camp.)

That is pretty funny and sweet. 
 

It’s definitely been a weird time for our kids growing up. 

[Ausmumof3]

Just now, kbutton said:

While flu rates have been lower with masking, I wonder if masks are as effective against the flu as they are against Covid. Does anyone know right off-hand?

I don’t know for sure. I do know that experts say flu is kind of wimpy compared to covid so measures designed for covid knock flu right out but I know sanitisation is a big part of that.

[kbutton]

2 minutes ago, Ausmumof3 said:

I don’t know for sure. I do know that experts say flu is kind of wimpy compared to covid so measures designed for covid knock flu right out but I know sanitisation is a big part of that.

Yeah, sounds like fomite contamination is a bigger deal with flu than with covid. https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/swine-flu/expert-answers/flu-mask/faq-20057878

[Laura Corin]

26 minutes ago, kbutton said:

Yeah, sounds like fomite contamination is a bigger deal with flu than with covid. https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/swine-flu/expert-answers/flu-mask/faq-20057878

I was on public transport, so that could have been it.

[Ausmumof3]